11 Mar 2014 21:54:43
To get the best out of Rooney, he needs to be played as a second striker. There is a bit of a difference between a second striker and a number 10. A second striker is someone like Del Piero, who can score a lot of goals and assist when needed, while a number 10s biggest strength is usually his passing and his vision. Here lies the difference between Del Piero and Totti. Del Piero is better at scoring goals, while Totti is more creative, but not as good as a goalscorer.
A second striker usually plays best when partnered with a physical specimen, who will run beyond the defenders, go wide when needed and push defenders back, giving the second striker more room to operate.
The best example of this in the league is Aguero and Oscar. Aguero is the superior goal scorer and a more destructive attacker, while Oscar is the better passer, and better at creating chances for others and helping out the midfield. Suarez is another example of a second striker while Kagawa, Mata Silva and Nasri are number 10s. Again, better passing, not as good goalscorers.
And you cannot use both, unless you push the number 10s wide ( Silva and Nasri ). Silva played his best season in a City shirt when he had just Aguero operating as a lone striker. Mata had Drogba and Torres ( only one of them starting ). Ozil had benzema/ Higuain, and struggled when both are playing.
All in all, a second striker can play equally comfortable as a front man, but will struggle in a deeper more creative role ( again, Del Piero ) and Totti did not really play his best football in an Italy shirt where he was moved a bit to the left.
Unfortunately for us, Van Persie cannot play with a second striker. He is not someone who can move wide, bully the defenders, push them back or even run beyond them. He is suited to play as a front man, which is where he had his best season ( granted, his only injury free one ) for Arsenal, where he equaled Henry's goal tally. And last season, Ferguson made Rooney drop further back than usual, allowing Van Persie more freedom. Now, Rooney is playing further forward, thus limiting Van Persie's role in the team. We will never see the best out of both players.
Now looking at Rooney's best seasons for us, we can see he played as an out and out striker in 2009 and scored a career high, or in 2012, where he had Chicharito and Welbeck pushing defenders back with their pace and allowing him more room to operate.
He also played reasonably well when partnered with Berbatov, who is a fine second striker himself. Rooney had to move a bit further up the pitch and play as a striker, while Berba dropped back a bit.
So, all in all, Rooney is either a second striker or an out and out center forward. He can do a decent job as a number 10 because he has a good engine on him, but will never be a world class number 10. Van Persie plays as a number 9 with freedom to drop back, thus making it nearly impossible to get the best out of the 2 . both of them need players to either create room for them ( Rooney ) or to create chances for them ( Van Persie and Rooney ).
Now, on paper, the partnership does not work. I thought they do not complement each other from the beginning, but I thought that 2 world class players can/will adapt. Suarez and Sturridge do not work on paper ( though they complement each other better than our current bunch ) but they adapted to make it work. I thought the same would happen to Rooney/ Van Persie, but the inevitable clash of egos came to the fore.
Now Sydney said more than once that Rooney playing off of Van Persie is the way forward. I beg to differ and both the tactical and real arguments prove they do not work to their best together. With Sir Alex, Rooney played as a number 10 to get the best out of Van Persie, while under Moyes Rooney is in his favorite position, and Van Persie is struggling.
The way forward for me was to drop Rooney, and sell him at the end of the season, and use Van Persie as an out and out striker with 3 attacking midfielders behind him. But, from Moyes' view, Rooney is the star man at the team. Considering he is younger, stronger, faster and works harder than an injury prone aging Van Persie, it does make a bit of sense ( even though I consider Van Persie a superior striker, Rooney's qualities outweigh Van Persie ).
So I think it's very reasonable for us to expect Van Persie will be off this summer ( hope Juve or a team of similar ilk ) would be his destination and despite losing a world class player, the team will be better for it.
We might end up replacing him with Cavani, whose pace, power, and ability to push defenders back would make him an ideal partner for Rooney but Mata, kagawa ( crossing fingers ) and even januzaj might struggle because of it. So I say go out and do everything we can to buy one of the german wonders ( Reus and preferably Draxler, with Max Meyer a decent less expensive option ) or promote Lingard to add more pace to our technical attacking 3 ( Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa ) when needed and play Rooney up front with Welbeck, Henriquez and maybe even Wilson as choices for cover ( I would not mind losing Hernandez tbf. He seems like a genuinely nice, down to earth, religious person and deserves to go to a team that will cherish him/ play him more than we do, and same for valencia ).
None of the options in the attacking third are undroppable especially for squad rotation. Mata would warrant a starting place, but resting him to give a chance to the likes of Powell is not unthinkable, and he seems like a down to earth guy intelligent enough to understand that he is not being dropped because he's not rated by the manager, but because a young player deserves some experience.
Januzaj and Kagawa have been squad players this season, and would relish a more important role, but they would also expect to be dropped for squad rotation/ tactical reasons. Zaha, Lingard, Draxler hopefully and maybe even Janko would come in when a more pacy/ direct option is needed.
Draxler is of course a world class talent, and will expect to play most weeks. But having 4 frequent starters in the front attacking 3 will ensure that they are all given plenty of opportunities with 3 additional squad players ( Powell if he does not go out on loan, Lingard same, Zaha and maybe keep one of Valencia, Young and Nani until said players are ready for a first team role).
Draxler would start frequently on the left, Mata often through the middle, Januzaj often to the right ( which is where his long term future should be imo. We get the most out of his ability on the ball and creativity that are limited on the left ) while Kagawa would either start ina narrow position on the left, or through the middle with one of Mata/ Januzaj on the right in a narrow role. The football this bunch would be able to play is magnificent, and with Rooney dropping back at times pushing one of said players forward ( in the middle of moves ) ensures we get the most out of their goal scoring abilities ( Kagawa, Mata and Draxler have brilliant goal scoring records for their previous clubs and Januzaj will develop his finishing ) and we keep Rooney happy by involving him in the play. His ego would also be boosted by the fact that he is the star man, leading the team from the front and everybody is working to get him to score goals ( he is not a very brilliant man, and keeping him happy as a striker should be a relatively easy task ).
Such attacking options would need a deep lying midfield two to sit back and cover the fullbacks when needed, but would also offer a lot of protection for said midfield ( despite the fact that none of them is defensively sound, the sheer numbers in midfield would limit the space for opposing teams to function ). Fellaini would most probably be the most consistent choice selection in midfield. he is a good tackler and good header of the ball, and his physicality would ensure he is capable of nullifying the opposing attacker, at least until the full backs get back in place. He has the ability to carry the ball forward and give the attackers a helping hand when a more physical player is needed too.
These players' passing qualities makes it less important for us to get a very creative Pirlo type midfielder. We just need midfielders who can get the ball to them quickly enough for them to use the open spaces. People have their doubts about Kroos and his defensive qualities, but we should not forget that he has mostly played as a number 10 in previous seasons which is why he never really had to defend. But he is a very capable tackler and a magnificently intelligent footballer, showing he can play as a box to box midfielder and as a deep lying forward on more than one occasion. Plus with our future lineup, and with so many good passer, we can expect to have very good possession stats, insuring we would not need to defend as often as we do now, but we need to hassle the opponents off the ball.
Not to mention that in a similar formation, we can just as easily use another defensive/ box to box midfielders next to Fellaini ( who will be first choice next season imo ) making Axel Witsel a realistic partner. They would act as a double pivot ( similar to their performances for belgium where they have been very solid ) and Witsel is better on the ball than Fellaini and can join the attack to an even greater impact. His pace would make sure we are not caught on the counter especially if we play a higher defensive line.
Carvalho is another option but I do think we'd be a bit short on technical ability in midfield if we use him, but with the fulbacks pushing forward creating passing options, that might be such a big miss. Cleverley, Fletcher and Carrick would hopefully be just squad players, and they all would function well in such a system. Cleverley would have people to pass to, Carrick would be the dlp sitting back, covering the fullbacks and spraying intelligent passes around the pitch, and Fletcher who would make a decent double pivot with one of Fellaini/ Witsel.
When it comes to the defense, there are plenty of options for left back. Shaw is good on the ball, defensively sound and very quick. Too expensive imo.
Rodriguez is a different beast, tall strong, quick and good on the ball, his ability to cross makes him a must-buy for Moyes.
Sandro is the most attacking minded of the bunch, and he has a magnificent skillset.
Moreno is an outside option, but he seems to be Madrid bound.
Coentrao is most probably the safest option, but there are more talented options out there.
My personal favorite is Lyvin Kurzawa. I never mentioned him in the past because we,, he plays for Monaco. They would not want to lose their most consistent and arguably talented player. But he has a brilliant attacking return ( 5 goals and three assists this season ), rarely if ever gets dribbled/ outpaced, tends to lose the ball in attacking areas, but that can be ironed out and will learn to known when to attack. He still does not pick his moments well, but it's clear he is very capable at both ends, and his attacking instincts would not go amiss in our hopefully narrow future system. He recently said that we are his dream club, and offering Chicha/ Nani for Monaco would be tempting, especially with them trying to raise their profile world wide and Chicha/ Nani are reasonably high profile players.
In central defense, Garay is the most realistic option, and with his positional intelligence and pace, he would ensure we are not caught on the break often and partnering him with Jones would bring the best out of both ( Jones' pace while running back and tackling ability would complement garay ).
Vermaelen seems like an option according to some reports, but I'm not sure Arsenal would like to lose 2 captains to us in the space of 2 years. He is a reasonably good defender despite his occasional brain fart and is quite vocal and experienced. His tendency to get injured would not be too destructive for us since we have 3 other defensive options all needing opportunities.
My favorite though would be vertonghen. His ability to play at left back would also give us cover for any left back that might come.
So to recap.
Attack: Draxler ( 37 mils ).
RVP, Young, Valencia, Chicharito, Macheda out for about 40 mils.
Midfield: Witsel/Kroos/ Gundogan ( 20-35 mils )
Out : Anderson ( 5 mils )
Defense: Kurzawa, garay ( 40 mil )
Out: Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic, Buttner ( 4-5 mils) .
It would make for a net spend of around 60 million, which would, in theory, leave us in a better position financially and in terms of the squad quality should Moyes fail to get us competing next season ( a top 3 finish is a must imo ) We would also trim down the wage bill significantly.
And then we can concentrate on blooding in the youngsters, knowing there is enough quality is the squad to give them opportunities.
We can also promote/ Loan out Petrucci ( hopefully to the eredivisie), Lingard, Zaha ( it would mean he does not really have a future here, but we need to seel him for a decent price ), Varela, Vermijl ( maybe to a premier league team thia time around, or as cover for rafael ), Powell ( premier league ), Rothwell, Henriquez ( championship/ bottom premier league imo ), Lawrence ( another championship), Will Keane, and plenty of others.
So we do not need to spend 200 mils to improve the squad. With the right purchases, we can keep some money as back up if Moyes fails and we need to give the new manager ( who would then have a very young, very capable team on his hands ) some funds to buy the payers he sees as musts.
High defensive line, defensively sound midfield, attacking fullbacks, technical playmakers and a free scoring striker. Also young, and ever improving team.
What do you guys think?
Mick1
PS : cheers Ed
{Ed004's Note - Great post from Mick1 a lot of effort put in. I reckon this summer we will see very few big names leaving the club as we are already losing Vidic, rio, Evra and most likely Giggs, so I can't see RVP or Rooney going. My thoughts are, that if we sign a more capable midfield say Carvalho along with Gundogan/Kroos and a cb who is quick and an attack left back do you still think it impossible to play RVP and Rooney in the same team. Essentially a 4222 formation with Kagawa, Mata, Januzaj, new signing?! (Only 2 of them btw) Playing behind Rooney. Push up and crowd out the midfield with the 2 behind the strikers playing centrally very attacking full backs to push forward and press higher up the pitch. Rooney can drop into midfield when we are struggling.
However on further thinking. If one of RVP or Rooney leaves I'd assume we are moving to a more modern formation with 3 in midfield. Firstly I'd prefer RVP but looks like it'll be Rooney I was thinking a narrow 3 of Mata, Kagawa and Rooney with Januzaj coming on if width is needed but to play this I think we need 3 new mids fellaini, Cleverley, Carrick Fletcher covering them but I can't see money being there to sign 3 of Carvalho, Gundogan, Kroos, Vidal, Herrera or Koke. Either way I'm unsure if selling RVP would benefit the team or not. Either way we need a cb who can help us play a high line and a very good left back to provide width and defend. Kinda like the idea of Carvalho, Vidal and one of Kroos or Gundogan for a midfield although it's extremely unrealistic and will never happen}
Bloody amazing post that mick, I agree 150% with everything u said!
I bow down to your football intelligence my friend.
How do u feel about spurs's Sandro thou? I really rate the guy although his injury record is a wee bit shabby imo.
Nice one Mick, great read as usual, although I'm starting to wonder if you are Shappy under a different name.
There's not much I'd disagree with what I like is with a net spend of £60 mill there should be funds left for further purchases once the initial changes have had chance to bed down and Moyes can assess what else he needs.
Ed004, I think we need to move away from the RVP or Rooney discussion. Even if they can't play together, it doesn't mean they can't be in the same squad and share the centre forward position. There's 60 games a season and RVP will probably be injured for most of them anyway.
Hats off to u sir I've bin trying to tell people this for ages its so irritating when people keep referring to rooney as a no10. Ronaldinho is a no10 that like u said can be used as wide no10 to fit a system, where as a player like say a Rivaldo is a 2ndstriker who hovers off the front man I think what's interesting though is that sometimes two 2ndstrikers can work together e.g Rooney & Tevez or Suarez & Sturridge (who BR refers to as 9andahalfs) or even York & Cole to a certain extent I think the key ingredient is pace if u have two
2ndstrikers that are tricky an pacey it can make for a very fluid attack but great post mate.
I think that is the best post I have seen on here, well done Mick just about the only thing I disagree with is I believe Kagawa will leave and possibly RVP
Superbly thought out.
@Ed004 What do you think about this :-
1. One player I would like us to consider is Alvaro Morata. I mentioned him a couple of years back in January (the january before we signed young, de gea, jones).
He has raw pace, good finisher, good positioning and movement, and excellent close control. He can lead the line alone (as he proved in the U-21 WC) and can also for a striking partnership. I have seen him played out wide on the left too and he is very good there too. What he needs to work on is, playing with his back to the goal and strength (they don't need to do that much in Spain so he hasn't really had to play that way before, but this can be achieved via training and physical development).
Now, if Moyes wants to be really bold, I think he would sell RVP and Chicharito and make Rooney and Morata his first choice front two.
I know its a big risk, but from watching him, I feel that all he needs is a manager that believes in him and regular starts. Sir Alex did that with Chicharito in 2011 and led us to a premier league title and a UCL final.
You could imagine Morata as the perfect blend between Chicharito and Welbeck. Arsenal are interested and I think Morata, if he comes to the premier league could have a similar impact to Torres.
If Rooney is injured we can play Morata on his own with Mata playing behind him.
2. I don't understand our interest in Carvalho. He is a good young player and could be as good as Toure, but if we are looking to spend a big sum on him, why did we sign Fellaini? It makes no sense having those two in the same midfield. Very similar players although Carvalho will go on to become the much more accomplished player.
The midfield would be extremely solid, no doubt but we would need e pacy and world class wingers to make that work (something we haven't got) and play on the counter attack (somebody like a Ronaldo, Bale or Reus), and even then I think we would lack creativity from midfield to have those through balls that would set up the counters. Moutinho is a master at setting up counter attacks, he would have been perfect.
The logical option for us has to be signing a creative player like Kroos or a box to box player like Vidal or Gundogan. Kroos' pass completion rate is just stupendous and Vidal is the complete midfielder, there is just nothing that he cannot do. Although the other Editor has told us that none of these are likely to join.
3. The other Editor says that ideally the club would like to get Mangala and Ginter or Hinteregger as center backs. That does seem strange since I would have expected at least one experienced center back.
Although Mangala does already seem extremely mature, great tackler, positioning, he has got it all. His pace is unreal for a defender. He could have a similar impact to what Varane had at Real Madrid.
{Ed004's Note - Firatly if RVP is sold I'd rather we play Rooney further forward and either Kagawa or Mata in the number 10 position therefore we would need two wingers instead of a forward (maybe 1 depending on how Januzaj and Kagawa are used). I feel if Carvalho is signed we need another midfielder who can bring the ball forward. And I agreed I thought the club would be looking at older cb I like the look of Benetia he is a really good player}
Good post Mick. Totally agree about Witsel, I've said a few times now that Witsel and Fellaini play really well together. I'm not a fan of Fellaini but that is a good partnership. How about Rakitic in there as well? A really versatile and intelligent footballer, not much wrong with his game. I do think van Persie will leave, he doesn't look happy at all, he seems to have made his mind up in my opinion. I think Garay is a must buy. I don't think Vertonghen or Vermaelan are an option. Kurzawa looks an exciting prospect but he would be a bit of a risk in my opinion, someone with a bit more experience is needed. I'd prefer Coentrao, then next season see how Shaw/Kurzawa have progressed.
Anyway, keep up the good posts everyone, always a good read. Hoping we don't revert back to Young and Valencia on Sunday, what do you reckon lads?
Great post - I wouldn't be surprised if we see both RVP and Rooney go though. Rooney's contract could just have been to ensure value (come on Wayne we will let you go but sign a contract so we can get double the money from Chelsea or we won't sell you to an English club). Bringing in Cavani and then having Welbeck and Wilson with Henriquez in reserve.
I'm not too fussed if we lose both our big guns upfront, they are not suited to the way we are going and frankly they are both more and more injury prone and taking longer to recover.
The Beast,
If we lost Rooney and RVP in one summer it would be a nightmare for the club in many many ways. The Rooney contract is definitely not one to ensure value, it is to stop any silly rumours flying around over the summer, and he will definitely be a United player next season.
GDS2 - more than a nightmare than we are currently going through? I think wholesale changes need to be made and RVP doesn't seem to want to play and in my opinion Rooney is no longer the force he was. We need to make too many adjustments to accommodate him and it knocks too many other players out of sync. Just like with England - to accommodate Rooney 4 other players do not get used properly.
We have signed Mata, have Kagawa and Janujaz - all of them prefer to play behind the striker - it is pretty much acknowledged that Rooney isn't the type of player to play upfront by himself and it leaves us having to move better players out of position to accommodate Rooney - I just don't think he is worth it any more, 3 years ago maybe, but now he doesn't bring much to the table. Rooney is our Aguero and frankly he isn't fit to tie his Aguero's boots.
I'll support whoever wears the shirt, but I think we need to have a major overhaul and our two main men have not been doing that well for various reasons.
Nice one Mick. Some areas I disagree the simple solution for Rooney is play him on the Right ( not right Wing though he can go there if the play dictates) of a line of 3 behind RVP ( or replacement). I agree a big, strong, fast old fashioned CF would work better with Rooney but then where do you play Mata or (I think he's gone and rightly) Kagawa.
Draxler is no doubt a great prospect scored 1 goal 6 assists and created 22 chances. My choice is Griezmann 16 goals 6 assists and over 40 chances created already this season. Those who say he's only had 1 season even last year he had 10 goals 10 assists and 34 chances created. He brings something very few others can, blinding acceleration.
In midfield I agree with Redfaith, Carvalho if signed is excellent everywhere except creativity. Vidal Kroos and Gundogan provide that and its an imperative for me. To me, if Vidal is available its a no brainer just sign him. If not we need 2 any 2 other than Kroos and Gundogan.
I know nothing of Kurzawa, other than we are his dream team. But if we use Ed002's indication of our interest It has to be Shaw or a big gamble on Bernat. I'd have chosen Sandro.
CB'S Mangala, this really surprises me, Benatia, Garay, Astori and even Nikolas N'koulou are all very good CB's much cheaper than Mangala. Its quite possible Mangala may be something special but its a gamble right now. I assume we would only sign 1 of Ginter or Hinteregger.
To recap I think Moyes is determined on Carvalho and Shaw Mangala he may compromise.
Attack: Griezmann
Mid: Carvalho and any of the other 3
Defence: Shaw . Mangala, and here is where Moyes may compromise, remember City had a plane waiting for him and Porto would not move on the price. Some reports suggested that a deal was tentatively agreed but then rejected.
I know that's a huge spend.
I can only hope that's the case with Rooney beast but if moyes does that his rep with the top players will be shot and very likely they wouldn't even entertain us with him in charge.
Mick1
First off midfield as all know can be improved by many, many, many players. All have their favourites and many can't look past Vidal, Gungodan and Kroos if they were offered anyone they wanted but even if one came I'm worried that it will only be to compliment what we have rather than overhaul with a few players. With one addition we still have carrick, fletch, wig, clevers for 2 spots. So I think only 1 cmer will be signed whereas I would have three and get rid of most of them haha.
On to the attacking side. So you and clearly other that are agreeing with you think that the best for the 'team' is to keep the most disruptive part of it and make the whole attack around him and his attributes? What does that really say about Utd as a whole if we sign our first truly world class player for ages in RVP then within a year and a half (including a debut season in which his goals won us the league) is now considered cannon fodder for the one who was ousted as the number one striker through ability by the best manager ever?
Remember this player doesn't have the vision, passing ability, movement and finishing ability of RVP nor the guile, creation, passing ability, or link up play of Mata, kagawa etc. so why get rid of the better striker and replace him with someone of lesser quality?
I don't buy into this does work and doesn't work for the two as you say it's a front 4 so they could work together but I feel you take RVP, Rooney, Mata and signing say a draxler, or rues etc the weakest link there is Rooney. RVP has proven as the focal point in a quality passing team that he can lead the line and provide the needed ability to help provide aswell. I'm not saying Rooney can't provide that aswell but his passing and finishing is far more limited and more over, how will he ever be described as world class again if he is stuck up front in a smaller space to do less running then his 'effort' and 'hardworking' can't be his main backing for his world class tag?
His petulance when it's not going his way in the build up play now is bad enough imagine that with him being relied on for the goals? Jesus with his 10 game Barron runs (every year) we would be stuck for goals as his all round game goes t*ts up.
As everyone knows our whole team needs a remodel, no area is complete. So we have the chance now to rid our team of this non world class player freeing up loads of wages and getting a very good transfer fee. So we get the wide boy in this window while addressing cb, lb, cm aswell and that allows for a big name striker to replace RVP summer 2015 if needed and a second cmer hopefully of all top class pedigree.
Jono
"He also played reasonably well when partnered with Berbatov, who is a fine second striker himself. Rooney had to move a bit further up the pitch and play as a striker, while Berba dropped back a bit."
Mick, this isn't strictly true is it? When Berbatov got the golden boot it was Rooney who was playing as the second striker. SAF realised that Rooney's best position was behind the main striker and Berbatov was CHOSEN ahead of Rooney to play as the main striker. The 2009 Rooney is a completely different Rooney to nowadays. He has lost a lot of his explosive power which made him the finished article he was in 2009.
12 Mar 2014 12:31:55
Ed004, a 4-2-2-2 formation would work much better than our current one. Think of PSG last season or City a couple of seasons back. To make it work, the 2 central midfielders need to be pretty hard working and cover a bit of ground since Rooney and Van Persie would be both playing high up the pitch, and Rooney would not track back and help the midfield. All of the problems of the Rooney-RVP partnership is that Rooney is having to play a more creative role, and when he moves further up, Van Persie is instructed to stay up and keep position. Maybe a 2 striker formation allows both to play as strikers and second striker, and interchange during a game. The 9 and a half theory would work better when both are allowed to have free roles. A Vidal- Gundogan partnership in midfield would be great for such a formation, while Mata and Kagawa operating between the lines would bring out the best out of both of them. Saying that, we might see an improvement in the Roo-Rvp pair, but there is no way we can get both of them to play their absolute best football simultaneously.
On the other hand, I do not think we're suited for a 4-3-3 formation. With the right additions in midfield, it's not unthinkable, but we would struggle up front. Mata does not seem suited to be a wide attacker, and januzaj's finishing is not up there ( at least not yet ). We have out and out wingers, we have number 10s covering the wings, but we do not have wide attackers. Think Reus and Griezman, and you've got yourself wide attackers.
CTR, Sandro, up until his injury, was my dream midfield signing. He is a midfield 3 by himself imo. Was it not for his injury, I was fully expecting him to progress into one of the top 3 central midfielders in the world ( up there with Toure and Vidal imo ). His passing is consistent, he has a very good range, his positioning is pretty special, he has a very good technique ( especially for someone in his position ) and his tackling is the best in the league. He was nicknamed the beast for a reason. But he mentioned before that barcelona is a dream of his, so i'm not expecting too much.
Andrew, this can work in theory, but RVP and ROoney are both too good ( not to mention massive egos ) to sit on the bench, even for a couple of games a season without making a huge fuss.
No name, exactly.
Pardoe, I expect RVP to push for a move. We have a rebuilding job on our hands, and we are unlikely to be in the CL next season and/or win any silverware in the time frame he still has. I would not be too fussed if he is to go to Juve/ Monaco/ Bayern, and I'd wish the best for him. he doesn't have much time at the top level, and he needs to make the most out of it.
I also suspect Kagawa will be let go, but I'm really hoping he goes on a scoring streak much like he did at the end of last season, making Fergie believe in him and saying he will be a very good player for us next season. Moyes seems to be adapting to the winger-less formation and Kagawa might get more chances.
As for Rakitic, great player. Hard working, classy, can score, but I just don't think he is what we need. He plays best as the most advanced of a midfield 3 or as a number 10, and we got bucket load of those.
Cheers guys
{Ed004's Note - I was thinking of Southamptons style of 433 were Rodriguez Lallana and Lambert all play very central and are supported by wanyama, schnerderlin and one other with full backs offering the width. Also in the 4222 formation surely when defending both or atleast one would have to drop in midfield I worry that we lack pace so teams can press us higher up the pitch}
Grund & Jono.
Just to clear the air, I was one of the first to get on the " Rooney out " bandwagon. He has done a lot for our team, but he has shown on more than one occasion that his loyalty lies elsewhere. I'm also not a big fan of his, and despite his qualities, he has not fulfilled his talent.
Fact is, there is nothing I like about him atm. I wanted to see Kagawa in the number 10 spot last season. I wanted him to be sold when Ferguson wanted him out, I was disappointed as he** when he signed his new contract.
I believe Van Persie is the better number 9. Kagawa and Mata superior attacking midfielders. Playing Rooney will only set us back.
But as a matter of fact, Moyes rates him very highly. It's understandable since he works hard and scores a lot of goals. But there is a reason no club other than Chelsea ( who are notorious for buying players partly to weaken their rivals ) came for him. Bayern made it very clear they do not want him. PSG bought Cavani. Madrid and Barca would not touch him with a stick. It tells you all there is to know about the player.
I also don't really like that Rooney is dumb as a rock. Mata, and his weekly column, brought a breath of fresh air to the squad. I think intelligence is a big plus for footballers ( Lampard made a career out of it ), and Rooney has the IQ of a turtle ( a very dumb one at that ).
I support him because he is a manchester united player, but I dislike him with passion.
I'm merely trying to put myself in Moyes' shoes. He has shown a liking for Rooney, and appears intent on putting his needs above the other players'. Therefore, it's pretty realistic to think when it comes to strengthening the team core and balance, one of Rooney and RVP has to go, and he looks like he prefers Rooney.
We cannot get the best out of both players while improving the team. One of them has to be sacrificed. I think many on here, including Ed004 and myself, wanted Rooney gone and Van Persie leading the attack. It sure as hell is not going to happen with Rooney's new megadeal.
I said before that the best piece of business we could have done is offload Rooney and Van Persie, while getting Cavani. He is on a similar level to both players, but is younger and more promising than RVP, while more capable of playing as a striker than Rooney.
If I was the manager atm, that's what I would do. RVP is not the way to go in the long term especially since he wants out, and Rooney is not the way to go full stop. So I would sell both, and look to sign a younger, more accomplished striker. But with Cavani, Falcao, Suarez, Aguero and Lewandowski are out of the question ( for different reasons ) we have to persevere with one of them.
It comes back to Rooney vs Van Persie, and seing how Moyes looks at it, Rooney has more long term benefit.
Syd, I believe Rooney played both roles. He played as a second striker when Hernandez was on the field ( his pace offering Rooney space to operate ) while Berbatov was benefiting from Rooney's movement to score goals himself. it looked as if Rooney was playing as a second striker because he drops back while defending while Berba stayed forward, but when we were attacking, it was Berba who dropped back. In theory, the support striker is the one who drops back to help defending, but that is not going to happen with Berbatov now is it?
I think we need to stick to what we are doing. A 4231 with everyone knowing their individual jobs. Then in the summer we improve the weak areas. It's simple really.
Mick, what happened when Rooney pushed for a move? Exactly, nowt. Van Persie will be here next season unless he isn't wanted. It's Hernandez that will leave.
There's not going to be a massive amount of time for Van Persie to push for a move this summer. He will not let his WC chances be disturbed by club talk and MU will be so busy buying and selling that it simple won't happen. And that's if Van Persie even wants to leave. There is zero evidence to back that theory. It seems now that every player that looks unhappy, MU fans think will be sold. MU will only sell if they want to sell. Why would MU want to sell Van Persie?
Mick - we are on exactly the same page here. I was gutted when Rooney signed a new deal, but when you look at it a bit more carefully the timing and our drop in stature this deal made a statement that we could still keep hold of and attract world famous players (Rooney/Mata) even though it isn't necessarily best for our onfield game. We now have Rooney over a very expensive barrel (which will be covered in sponsorships and share price holding), rather than Rooney causing more mischief. I think he will go to Chelsea but we hold the ball now and can dictate terms, rather than a desperate situation which we were about to be in.
Sydney - RVP is 10 times cleverer than Rooney and has different morals. It will take more than money to shut RVP up or to change his mind, he chose us rather than City because he has principals. Our underhandedness with SAF leaving and Rooney being seemingly rewarded for holding the club to ransom has left a sour taste in RVP's mouth (not to mention the smell of favouritism. I think the aura we held for RVP has been dismembered over the past 8 months or so and it's time he moved on as you can't get that back. I bet what RVP feels now is the equivalent of catching your bird in bed with your best mate, you just can't ever get that trust back.
It's a shame we ruined the RVP relationship and Rooney never fulfilled his talent. Time to let go in the Summer.
Lol, once rvp has a couple of more games under his belt and is match sharp you will see a very different rvp
Mick, not sure I agree. It could be said that Sheringham, Yorke, Cole and Solksjaer were too good to sit on the bench.
That worked out quite well though and Sir Alex always seemed to play each of them enough to keep them happy
Like jred, I completely disagree. All of this has come about because he isn't scoring as prolifically as usual. Van Persie isn't going anywhere. I just do not see a) how we would let him leave and b) how there would be enough time this summer. I cannot see it.
It's his all round game that concerns me more than his goal ratio. Fingers crossed something clicks as he would be a great talisman for the team if he sorts it out.
Beast, SAF leaving was disappointing for everyone, but I really don't think there was anything, 'underhand' about it.