Manchester United Banter Archive September 11 2014

 

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11 Sep 2014 23:26:11
Roll on Sunday & hopefully we'll see what 200k+ a week should get us - Falcao vs Rooney

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12 Sep 2014 09:05:49
They are playing against each other?

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Hopefully the short fat bald one will be on the bench giving us all a glimpse of what we should be getting for £200K+ a week.Falcoa, a world class striker not one that could have been.

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12 Sep 2014 12:23:08
Oh has Cleverley gone now so we need another one of our players to slag off? Why don't you go to the match on Sunday Hugh and boo our captain every time he gets the ball, you will feel loads better about yourself.

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Haha, can't even get Falcao's name correct.

Deeps.

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12 Sep 2014 17:58:13
Hugh's on his break from the print dept at the megastore.

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{Ed007's Note - He's on a break - you got that part right.}

11 Sep 2014 22:28:00
Re the whole Welbeck debate:

If Falcao went to Arsenal or even stayed at Monaco then at the press conference tomorrow Van Gaal revealed that we had the chance to sign Falcao but decided against it due to him wanting to give Welbeck a chance, would you be genuinely pleased with that decision as I know it is giving homegrown players a chance but when one of the best strikers in the world becomes available you go out and sign him, even if it is for the pure reason so your rivals cannot (in the case of him going to Arsenal).

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A very good point.

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12 Sep 2014 11:31:11
No it would have been a stupid decision Avid. If LVG had sold Welbeck and said he had done so to promote Wilson, I would have still been happy with that, so getting Falcao and promoting Wilson is perfect in my eyes.

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11 Sep 2014 21:36:29
Welbeck may be a hit at Arsenal but that doesn't mean we were wrong to sell him, even for "only" 16m. Danny's scoring record wasn't bad when he played up top but the fact remains he was not going to get many games in that position with Rooney, RVP and Falcao in the squad. Had we signed Falcao early in the window I personally would have been inclined to prefer Welbeck over both Rooney and RVP, because I actually think he's been suffering from not playing in his best position or enough, and could blossom plus he's still fairly young. But the timing being as it was, I can fully understand why LVG didn't or simply couldn't make that decision. And in any event Rooney is now most likely untouchable because of his excessive wage, and RVP and LVG clearly have a bit of a love-in.

Leaving aside where he went and whether it will come back to bite us, prior to the transfer window if you were offered a choice between a) RVP, Rooney, Welbeck, and Chicharito and b) RVP, Rooney, Falcao and di Maria, which one would you have gone for? Tough decision.

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11 Sep 2014 21:22:07
What is the beast's love affair with welbeck all about?

The guy simply wasn't good enough. He may play well at Arsenal but he's not and never will be anywhere near the quality needed to lead the front line of any team looking to win trophies. Sad to see him leave as he was a youth product and local lad but that is all. We have gained immensely (Falcao) from letting him and Chicharito leave. Manchester United can't afford to let sentiment cloud judgement and that's what LVG will have thought regarding Welbeck and Cleverley.

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11 Sep 2014 19:05:07
Guys any update in anglo henriquzz. Last I heard that he was on loan to a spanish team but any info regarding him, wil he make it to the first team

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{Ed002's Note - He is on loan at Dinamo Zagreb.}

I think Dinamo have an option to buy at the end of the loan So with Wilson stepping up. I don't think we will see him at united again.
Also Ed is there a buy back clause in for Tom Lawrence. There have been varying reports.

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{Ed002's Note - I don't know.}

11 Sep 2014 17:59:45
I like Van Gaal's honesty, he has said that he sold Welbeck because he wasn't good enough:

'He doesn't have the record of Van Persie or Rooney, and that's the standard'.

This sends a message to those in the squad who aren't pulling their weight. I' m sure Welbeck felt pretty safe, just shows that now the wheat will be separated from the chaff.

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The manager is a class act all round, IMO.
The man is direct and to the point; and I suspect the players know exactly where they stand with him - and what he wants from them.

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Hmm - so he wanted to give players a chance, then judges them on their record (what has RVP & Rooneys record been stuck out wide by the way)?

Another contradiction for me.

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It sends a brilliant message out to the squad, buck up you're out.

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It is what some of us have been saying for a long time and not blinded by the fact that he came throughout the academy.

I believe he will be 3rd choice at arsenal because giroud and Walcot, who are better player and eventually( next summer most likely) arsenal will go into the market and buy a proper striker and he will be in the same situation as he was with us. They also have player like joe campbell coming through so it will be a lot more difficult than people assume.

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He doesn't have the ability of Rooney or RVP would be a fair enough comment for him to make if he thinks it, what is all this record nonsense?

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11 Sep 2014 20:05:24
I think danny will do well enough at arsenal, but he had to go he realised that and we got a decent price, I think all parties should be pleased with the deal including both sets of supporters
Beast, I think you find fault with pretty much every decision the current management make, so by the law of averages you will be correct some of the time and i'm sure you will let us know when these occasions arise.
i'm sure LVG wanted to look closely at the players, he will have studied their stats, goals, assists, injuries training and fittness records but they painted only half the picture he then put them together with what he saw for a month in training and in games then decided who was good enough to stay and go.
i'm sure he also feels the same about ando young and possibly smalling but they played in positions we needed cover for . welbeck doesn't so got no stay of execution, we have ample CF's and good youth options. WElbeck going was the correct decision, he was a high earner and balancing the wage bill for FFP was essential. a small amount of work still needs to be done in this regard to be compliant

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Let it go beast he's a gooner now, he even used to dream about playing for them.

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Yeah you're right Carloto. He's gone now. I had a soft spot for Welbeck, but time to move on and he wasn't going to get games.

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I think lvg summed it up perfectly"he(Falcao) had one chance in training, and it's a goal".
Regardless of how you view Welbeck this was never the case with the lad . He was downright sloppy in front of goal and would NEVER be our first choice striker. Hope he does well but I can't see him being Arsenals first choice for long either.

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11 Sep 2014 16:00:19
Lot of people concerned about Ronaldo's age. The age factor is of course a factor, but, I must admit, I regularly find myself grinding my teeth when people go on about age on here. One would think there is some kind of self-destruct mechanism that goes off on a player's 30th birthday. Ronaldo could decline by 20% and still be world class

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The reason age comes into it for me is simply because UTD have started a new revolution, out with the OLD in with the new, don't get me wrong I would love to see him back but would you stagnate Januzaj's career (for instance) for the sake of sentiment.

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11 Sep 2014 17:31:51
I agree totally Bornintoit, of course Ronaldo is going to decline, of that there is no doubt. But, barring a serious injury, which any player from u18 to 40 years old can get, I see him still being a top 10 player well into his mid 30's. I said ages ago that I believed Ronaldo will return, but didn't know when exactly, and I am still 100% sure of that.

He is lighting quick but, along with that he has unbelievable skill, brilliant control, great strength and he is great in the air too. Those added strengths will ensure he stays at the top for a long time yet. Bring him home Louis :-)

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It wouldn't be sentiment though would it. We would still be signing one of the top two players in the world who could easily play till his mid 30s and be a top player. Even when he loses his pace he will still have an absolute arrow of a shot and is a great all around attacker. Ronaldo, Di Maria and Januzaj for options on the wings is immense. Add to that Falcao, Rooney and van Persie up top with Wilson coming through and I very much doubt that there would be a squad out there with more current class and potential.

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11 Sep 2014 18:22:13
Ronaldo may stagnate Januzaj I agree but let's not forget that januzaj prefered position is no.10 and regarading pace ronaldo pace in 30s will be same as januzaj.

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Thats the thing though Fresh, can he play into his mid 30's and still be world class? He is without a doubt one of the finest and fittest athlete's in football today but age hits different people in a different ways, there's no way of predicting his capabilities with age.
If Ronaldo ever comes back to UTD I will welcome him with open arms but it does'nt make sense to bring him back, wages + fee + bonuses + agents etc would be silly for a 30 year old.

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Would you rather not have Ronaldo in your team then Herbie? Because I don't see why us fans should care what we pay for him if the club say they can afford it. I'd rather have him in our XI than starting against him.

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Fresh
If we take up the option on Falcao AND bring Ronny in that would be 2 30yr olds, it would be a backwards step replacing aging players for aging players regardless if there worldies or not.
If it came down to it I would rather take Ronny and not Falcao.
Like I already said I would welcome him with open arms but its not what's needed while were rebuilding.

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11 Sep 2014 14:17:02
The way we have been buying players, I can see us trying to get Ronaldo next summer if indeed he is unsettled etc. But I can't help but feel that we should give up on that go for Reus instead (if indeed we are signing a wide forward). That would be more in the "Manchester United" way. World class player, great pace and will only get better and is still very young.

Still the most pressing concerns should be a box to box central midfielder, a top center back and a right back and that is what we should be focussing on instead of chasing Ronaldo. He is going to be 30 now and a lot of his game is based on pace and power. As much as I would hate to see him in another team in the EPL, I think getting Reus would be the better long term decision.

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I agree regards Ronaldo, age is a factor that should be taken into consideration before sentiment.
RB we are short in numbers (valencia not good enough there) IMO and I'm sure Strootman is a target for CM although Carvalho would be my choice.

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The thing is that, we couldn't let a club legend like that go elsewhere while he is still at the peak of his powers. If he leaves he will come back. God knows if we will take the 7 off of Di Maria though.

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I believe Ronaldo is probably after an improved contract. And if he felt so much love for us why did he leave.
My last memory of Ronaldo as a red is playing rubbish against Barcelona. Then doing one to his dream club.

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Hindsight is a wonderful thing

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11 Sep 2014 08:58:23
Interesting question for all the regulars on here. There have been several people who have come out recently and said maybe it was a mistake to let Welbeck go.

I just wonder would people feel differently about the situation if he was Scottish and we pinched him from Rangers or Celtic as an 18yo?

Would that make you feel differently about letting him go?

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Hi Shappy - My view doesn't take into consideration where he is from, how much he cost or didn't, how much time we put into him etc. It is simply down to his capabilities, his age, what we need in our team (directness, pace, ability to be versatile) and the fact that Rooney & RVP have been given a hell of a lot more chances than he has with worse performances. He is not world class, but he will give 100% every game and brings others into the game.

I don't really care if he is our youth product or not, he has a lot to offer and is a better short term and long term solution than the strikers we have kept, (obviously bringing in Falcao for any of our strikers is a good move, it should have been either RVP or Rooney sacrificed).

Finances aren't really high on my list either, but we could have arguably sold Rooney or RVP for more on account of their reputations and got a massive wage bill off our hands. Money only bothers me if this was one of the reasons we didn't buy the world class CM we needed this window, probably wasn't but it may be a factor in the future with a lot of high earners potentially bench warming.

We all know that RVP & Rooney need games to keep their match sharpness, they aren't ideal impact subs. Welbeck is very much an impact sub and he can offer a lot of variation to what RVP, Rooney & Falcao already bring to the table.

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{Ed004's Note - Out of curiosity what team do you reckon would have bought Rooney?}

But now with Di Maria we have a far superior player that is equally direct. I've not lost any sleep through Welbeck's sale - he won't be missed at all in my mind.

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I think that Chelsea would have signed him potentially. Probably PSG, they would have worked harder to sell Cavani.

I'm not involved in negotiations, but if no club deems the Man Utd Captain and England Captain good business, it kind of proves my point either way that he is over rated and we are putting our faith in a player none of our competitors would want.

Personally I would have gotten rid of him before SAF's last season when I'm sure we would have been able to name our price.

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Possibly Spurs as well.

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If he doesn't play CM Fresh?

Don't get me wrong Falcao is a major upgrade on all of them, so no sleep is being lost. I just think the wrong decision was made by getting rid of Welbeck.

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I expect to see Di Maria operating further up the pitch or on the wing as Welbeck would have done so in all honesty we have upgraded. Sold Welbeck and brought in Falcao and Di Maria - no one could complain with that.

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In the last 2 seasons
Welbeck played 79 games for united and scored 12 goals
Rvp played 76 and scored 48
Rooney played 77 and scored 35.

He is imo a squad player who has done the right thing imo and asked for a move and is going to try and prove himself so good luck to the lad.
But I don't think if welbeck had been an arsenal player over the last few years many would be asking united to sign him, never mind sell rooney or rvp to get him .

I rate walcott he has pace can finish and imo is a striker I don't know why wenger plays him on the wing . He could kick on and be a good player. Never good enough to be a united first choice striker tho

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11 Sep 2014 10:43:52
The only problem I have is that arsenal is our direct rival for top 4. With chelsea and city certain for top 2 I think its between us liverpool and arsenal for the other two places.arsenal was a striker short on deadline day with giroud out till dec, they had only sonogo and sanchez(not still settled as a striker) to compete champions league as well as premier league. I think wellbeck could be a huge difference between now and december and may cost us top 4 finish.i mean why strength an area of your rival which is weak,dont forget arsenal have lot of quality midfilders to feed welbeck.

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Jred - What stats do you have for Welbeck leading the line? You may as well have Valencia's goal stats up there as well comparing them, it isn't fair. Also there is more to the game than just goals.

Take away the penalties and direct freekicks from Rooney it doesn't paint such a flattering picture.

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11 Sep 2014 11:44:39
I like Welbeck and think he is a very useful player to have in your squad. But the main issue people seem to have with selling Welbeck is that its turning our back on home grown players. Where as I see it as the exact opposite.

With Rooney, Falcao, RvP, Di Maria and Mata all likely to play ahead of Welbeck if we were to keep him then he would take away games from players such as Januzaj or Wilson.

And doing that would be turning our backs on youngsters trying to break through.

At the end of the day Welbeck wanted to be first choice and that wasn't going to happen at our club. Keeping him would have limited chances for our youth players and Welbeck himself wouldn't have been happy. The only logical decision was to let him leave.

Some people will complain that we have strengthen a rival, but ultimately we shouldn't be blocking moves to certain clubs. Imagine if you left your company and they blocked you from being able to work with a direct rival company forcing you to work for a smaller company on lower wages and in a less desirable place? Its not fair and not within the mantra of our club. We want all our youngster yo be a success, whether that is with us or away from the club.

Some will moan about the price we sold him for but how much can you really sell your 4/5 choice striker for?

We need to wish him well and move on, we have better players at the club and we have had better players than Welbeck leave in the past.

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Stats are relevant.
Can't discard Rooneys because he's scored more free kicks and penalties.
There is a reason he is on these duties and welbeck wasn't . A nice lad but c'mon not good enough. Bored of sentiment to be honest, let's have the better players. 16 million might seem cheap but if we got over 20 we would have been thinking the opposite .

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Hit the nail on the head Shappy. Januzaj and Wilson for me are the two most promising players coming up - probably Pereira too.

We need a stellar starting XI and then young players that can come in and will eventually make up that starting XI like those two will. Players like Young, Welbeck, Cleverley etc should be moved on to accomodate more promising talents. We need to keep our best players, and constantly refresh the rest of the squad with exciting young players who have more potential than those that are in their way.

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Beast
i think you should have a look at how many pens rooney has scored over the last 2 years.
or how many times rooney has lead the line.
you should also have a look at assists.

rooney, di maria, wilson, rvp, falcao are all better strikers than welbeck.
if welbeck played for another team I don't think you would be suggestion selling rvp and buying welbeck.

welbeck offers pace, so does walcott
welbeck claims to be a striker who has had to play on the wing, so does walcott.
In the last 2 year welback has played 79 games and scored 12 walcott has played 61 and scored 27.

We should maybe sell rvp and buy walcott.

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Spot on Shappy, Regardless of where he was from, he is a good squad player but noting more. Arsenal have a better player in Walcott and to be honest I don't think we really need to worry about strengthening rivals in this case.

When Giroud gets back fully fit he will be ahead of Welbeck. €16 Million for a player who wasn't needed is very good business. Falcao RVP, Rooney and Di Maria are all better strikers than him and Wilson and Januzaj need games to kick on so that would leave little playing time for Welbeck.

I completely disagree with people saying we are changing our Youth policy. If we kept Welbeck would we not be stalling his development as he would not get much games where as at Arsenal he should get a good deal more playing time, It also allows us to develop Wilson and Januzaj.

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People will see what an average player Welbeck is during the next season, when he gets a chance to lead the line. To all those saying that it was a mistake to let him go, and that we never saw his best because we didn't play him in his best position. Three successive managers (2 of them being some of the most decorated managers of the last 25 years) didn't think Welbeck was good enough to lead the United attack. He's not even first choice centrally in a poor England side.

Do you ever think that Welbeck is exactly what these managers say he is: a good versatile reserve player? Do you think he's going to be first choice at Arsenal? He wasn't even their first choice signing up front, they had to settle for a squad player because they lacked the cash and left it too late. Good luck to the lad, but I think that he, and his fans, will soon discover that he isn't the next Henry, he's what he has been for the last three seasons: a squad player who thinks he's much better than he actually is.

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I would like to say selling Welbeck was the best for UTD but the banter police may be watching.
:-)

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Is lvg in the best position to pick who plays between rooney welbeck falcao and rvp.
Did welbeck want to stop and fight for his place.
I don't think welbeck is or ever will be as good as rooney rvp or falcao.
If rooney or rvp where to leave I think the club would of went out and bought a top striker rather than promote welbeck .
Welbeck is a decent player who is improving but isn't in the same class as them 3 imo.

Ed004 are you really going to start that again

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{Ed004's Note - No can't be bothered with all the same replies it always attracts}

All reasoned arguments guys, but we will have to wait and see how Welbeck performs. Walcott only has pace, Welbeck brings a lot more to the table than just pace.

I understand that 2 top class managers have opted for Rooney & RVP over Welbeck, it does make sense on paper and financially - it is still early days for LVG so maybe he will realise he dropped a small one with Welbeck in a few months. But when you actually look at what these players bring to a team Welbeck is the only one that offers something unique and is the only one that hasn't been given a run in his best position.

I don't see Wilson playing any games as a lone striker. RVP, Rooney & Falcao all play that role and frankly Welbeck is better than all of them as a wide striker, so if 4-3-3 is where we are heading then it is a bad move short term.

If Welbeck demanded to start I would have asked him to prove it and give him a go, as Rooney & RVP don't deserve to be ahead of him on current form (only). Frankly if you were Welbeck watching players like Rooney & RVP playing ahead of you despite being very poor week in week out, you can't blame him for being annoyed and asking to be played or leave, remember how we performed last season and have started this season going forward.

The team has been picked on reputation for far too long. I hope LVG drops under performing players and gives the likes of Janujaz and Wilson a chance, but if Mata, RVP, Rooney, Di Maria, Falcao are fit they will play irrespective of form (dependent on system they will be ahead of youth), and its a sorry state of affairs.

I was impressed with Rooney against the Swiss, if he plays like that then we will do well, he linked and worked. But Welbeck still outshone him again, despite this improved performance.

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I think he will be sold in 2 or 3 season to a mid table team by arsenal. He is never ever going to be anything but a decent striker for a mid table team.

Yes he does have pace but then audebeyang has pace like no one else and can finish, so should we buy him.

I think the sentiment is blinding people in terms of a player capability. 2 assists in 2500 minutes of football should tell you that he lacks so many fundamental things a top striker needs to have.

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One of them 2 you mentioned scored 20 goals and 20 assists in the season and the other one got 18 goals in an underwhelming season. You see the difference? 2 underperforming players take Welbeck to the cleaners with their numbers. And Welbeck supposedly had a good-ish season? It's class, which is permanent. If Welbeck is one tenth the player that RVP or Rooney is, he would have a successful career. Welbeck overrates his own ability massively. If he does not have the fight in his stomach, fair enough and best of luck. But we are not going to miss him or lose any sleep. He has been poor for a lot of seasons now!

Deeps.

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This thread is screaming out for Ed 007's view on Danny ;-)

Deeps.

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{Ed007's Note - Who in their right mind would replace Bendtner him with Welbeck? Both of them are about as much use as a carpet fitters ladder!}

11 Sep 2014 20:43:40
Nice 007 and I thought LVG was direct.
I think its a good deal for all parties including both sets of supporters, he will do ok down there, his mobility will suit their system and they have turned a lot of average players into v good ones, I don't think he will set the world alight but expect him to do better than he did here.

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{Ed007's Note - Well let's face it, he couldn't possibly do any worse. Welbeck is the English Georgios Samaras, and he was available on a free.}