Manchester United Banter Archive February 12 2015

12 Feb 2015 18:14:33
"I think it's a strange way to judge a manager solely on league position .
Surely there are wider issues
Quality of the squad
Progress of the team
How other teams around you have performed.
To name but a few

jred"

Jred, further down the page you made this comment, on the whole I agree. There will be many different criteria the owners will have give LvG when they hired him and he should be judge on how he has managed in all those criteria.

One thing you said which personally I think is rather silly and certainly reckless is he should be judged on how other teams around us have performed.

What?????

I'm a manager of a Barber shop, should I be judged on how our rival Barber shops have performed. Or would that be unfair?

All I can do is worry about my ship, how I've managed. I am not responsible for the shops I don't manage.

Like wise LvG can't be held responsible for how the other clubs have performed, all he can do is achieve his aims. If that is manage a turn over of playing staff, reunite the dressing room, rebuild the players confidence and achieve a top four finish and he manages all of that then there is no grounds to fire him. If the owners said he had to do it playing a certain style of football then that needs to be taken into consideration. But I highly doubt that was part of his remit.

Everyone has their own criteria Shappy. We don't own the club, we support the club. For me a Man Utd manager shouldn't be in his position if he fails to make proper use of the tools he has been given for a prolonged period, couple that with a failure to learn from any previous mistakes and I have a problem.

He is not doing a good job at management, he is bouncing around being indecisive and relying far too much on luck over judgement in my view.

Other people can ignore the performance aspect and simply look at results - fair enough, it's their perogative. However that doesn't appeal to me. Performance comes first, seeing signs of progress are crucial.

Secondly - Most of the comparisons with the likes of how our rivals are performing this year compared to last year is simply to highlight that Moyes was not as bad as has been made out and LVG is not as good. That's all.

P.S - If 5 barber shops are doing better than you, yet you have invested more than them, surely you have to wonder why? If your hair cuts are getting worse, it won't be long before the not so loyal customers start going elsewhere - that will impact on the bottom line. Even the loyal customers may start asking why the service is going downhill, could they be taken for granted by any chance?!

12 Feb 2015 18:58:08
I tend to think too much emphasis is put on the performance of other teams and my personal fave 'the league is so poor this year'. If you believed that every time you read it the EPL must get worse year on year! I do see the logic in evaluating other teams compared with us but I tend to fall into the 'you can only beat what's in front of you' camp.

Shaps
if you read my post again i think you will see i said / meant the exact opposite.

as i said in the below post that would be a strange way to judge a manager.
It was in reply to ozwald post that "the only way to judge a manager is on league position"
But this is very dependent on how other teams perform .
i think there Is far more to be taken in to account as i have tried to explain below.

In the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is king. He still doesn't see very well though.

We may finish 4th and stink, but there are teams that stink more than we do. Finishing 4th means we get into the CL and secure much needed revenue but t doesn't mean LVG has done a great job and everything is rosy.

Not on a downer, just pointing out that despite being 3rd, we have on the whole been pants

If koeman finishes 4th i think he will of done a better job than if lvg finished 4th .
4th place playing average not getting the best out of a team would not be as good a performance from the manager as 5th place playing good football and getting the best out of team.

i don't think it is as clear and simple as 4th place good 5th place bad .

Imagine if you owned a barbershop and the manager had your highest paid stylist sweeping the floor and washing hair, and your only specialised colourist wasn't being given any shifts because his colours were too vibrant. And all the while your illustrious manager keeps giving his nephew the most important clients despite the fact he only occasionally bothers showing up.

Beast so would you be happy playing amazing football, fast attacking but not getting results and finishing mid table every season?

the fact is lvg is getting results. 1 loss in since November is not luck.

12 Feb 2015 23:17:00
This debate is going to rumble on forever.

Mourinho - well it could be argued that he got sacked by Abramovic for not playing attractive enough football. His Milan team was functional, at best, if you think about. Did Chelsea play 'that' well last season - not really. Functional. But this season he's flavour of the year thanks to some shrewd signings.

Let's see what LvG does next year before we judge him, see who he brings in. Who cares what money we spend? It's not my money. For Pete's sake (who is this Pete?) we Utd fans crave stability, but because of past success we lack the patience to start again. How do you follow the best manager, arguably, in history?

Football in England and Italy has been so up and down the last few years. Athletico and Dortmund have also shown that no elite teams are invincible anymore. Look at Barca since Guardiola has left. Where did AC Milan finish last year?

The premier league is so strong. Burnley would give Barca, Bayern, Juve a good game. Look what happens when a pumped up Celtic play those kind of teams.

Rambling. But I just think enjoy the ride, See how things go. Be passionate, but be realistic. Think about Utd fans in the 70's and 80's. My Nan died the month before Ronaldo's debut. She missed that and another Champs League win. You just don't know what you'll watch in your window of time as a football fan.

Enjoy it. Don't be spoilt or entitled and support your team.

LvG and this current team is just a chapter in a long history. And while I mourn the loss of a Keane tackle, Scholes picks it up. Finds Giggs. Plays it forward to Cole. Good control. Back out wide to Beckham who's put a magnificent ball into the near post to Yorke. And it's 1-0 Utd.

We'll once again find a team like that. Not next year. Maybe not the year after. Maybe not even a LvG team. Maybe even after Rooney retires. But it will come again. We're to rich and too big to fall off forever.

12 Feb 2015 23:48:09
Very good post firebear.

Good post Firebear, I'm sure we are all in it for the long haul, but it doesn't mean we can't bitch about it when stupid mistakes keep happening. I agree that we should just enjoy it, but some people who are passionate about things have to voice their concerns (that doesn't mean people who don't voice anything aren't passionate of course).

Different people make the world go round, but I personally can't wait until I have finished with this Chapter of Man Utd Life - the plot is going nowhere fast.

Spb - missed your post sorry. I have actually answered the same point several times this season. But Yes I would rather we played better football, I watch to enjoy not to crow.

However if we play amazing football with the players we have then it goes without saying we will win things again. It's a question of having the correct manager and the correct balance, at the moment we are far too negative and the manager is far too stubborn.

Cant believe I read on this page Beast saying he was a supporter. you haven't supported anything on any of your posts that i've seen, and there has been many. too many glass half empty wooden spoon merchants looking for half empty glasses that fuel the media's agenda to paint a bad light on mufc

What are you talking about Rzomcr? Why would I come on here if I didn't support the team, I don't like or rate the manager but I will always support the team.

There is a big difference you know, LVG is not Man Utd - although he may think he is!

To maraud your overpowering off centre views. You have for some reason made LVG your nemesis despite him doing exactlt what he was brought in for (so far). The fact remains, the start of the season was used (as LVG clearly openly stated) to see every single potential player play to make decisions about the squad going forward. With that in mind if we was playing then like we are now it would be very likely we would be top of the league. The fact you chose Moyes over LVG above sealed it for me, Moyes didn't have a clue what he was doing yet LVG has come in with complete clarity of what he wants and how he plans to move forward. I have said on previous posts he has highlighted the weakness at the back and has moulded the team into a more overall defensive unit to protect them. Unfortunately this comes with its side effects ie not playing sweeping beautiful football, however the aim is to maintain a steady run of results with the squad we have until replacements can be brought in to strengthen the back which will in turn allow attacking players the freedom they need to play the football you so desire. The players know their jobs they go out and execute it and pick up the desired points, whereas under moyes the players looked lost, different 11 every game and no end result (most importantly). people seem to be under the impression that LVG has handpicked this squad, when the fact is a couple of players were already in the pipeline and di maria and falcao were too good to turn down when mr mendes dropped them at the checkout. When Di Maria, Falcao, Shaw and Hererra were all injured LVG had the same squad as Moyes at his disposal (less vidic, evra, ferdinand, giggs) and still maintained the desired results. I think you should re-think your anti LVG agenda forget about your conspiracies and stick to the facts. You can't have your cake and eat it all of the time. You say LVG is stubborn and has an ego??? is there a man out there more stubborn than the legend that is SAF??? LVG is open and honest every single press interview and I for one think his character is exactly what fits this club, he has control and that in itself is a very powerful thing.

12 Feb 2015 16:19:05
a question for any of the eds.

with the debt being around 380million

have the club set a target date/year on when the debt will be fully paid off by?

or will the debt be wiped when someone comes into to buy the club?

thanks

{Ed002's Note - Manchester United continue to pay the interest, fees, bank charges and loan repayments but are no longer tied to the bonds which were due to mature in 2017. As such there is no fixed date for all of the debt to be cleared right now.}

Ok thanks a lot ed

12 Feb 2015 15:42:34
I think what I find most odd is that at the start of the year we heard all about how LVG has the minerals to drop any of the big names if they are under performing, yet he continues to force RVP/Rooney/Falcao into his starting 11 while leaving players who have performed better on the bench. Would love to see some charts explaining this tbh.

On a side note - Every time I see Rooney's awful attempt at the Scholes pass (diagonal cross field in behind the full back) I cringe.

Good point Rosie, it is odd that the 2 CFs keep getting picked when they look so out of form.

As for Rooney, I wonder how he is feeling? He is being played everywhere but his favoured position, last night he was almost a deep lyeing midfielder. I also wonder how it will affect his England career as I can't see Hodgson playing him anywhere other than up front.

He tries that too often, sometimes he slows our attack when he does it! He really isn't a top midfielder, I don't understand why people think he is!

12 Feb 2015 16:51:14
AJH, when Herrera came on Rooney was playing as the deep lying midfielder taking Blind's role! Even though naturally, he drifted forward and Herrera drifted back as they each moved into their more accustomed positions.

I don't think any of this will effect Rooney's england career in the short term. Hodgson knows if you put Rooney up front he will score given the service, it's like riding a bike it's not something you forget. Would be nice to see LvG play him up front for us again soon though.

I think Harry Kane & Sturridge will affect Rooney's England career, or I should say "should" but Hodgson is hardly a maverick, so it will be Rooney upfront. let's face it he was hardly setting the world alight when up top in recent seasons as well. A lot of us have very short memories.

12 Feb 2015 18:33:02
Beast that's mainly down to England being crap as a team. He's not one of the best players in the world that can win a match all by himself but give him good service he'll be more reliable in front of goal than either Sturridge or Kane.

12 Feb 2015 19:23:56
Red Rosie,

I agree. I have backed LvG and still do but I have been disappointed that he seems to be picking individuals over the right player for each position, within the system. Especially when I expected the opposite from him!

I will judge him mainly on league position. Top 4 being vital. But I also would like to see him live up to his reputation by picking the players with the right attributes, not the right name.

12 Feb 2015 13:31:45
Hello all - something light hearted to start this off, because everything is so gosh darned negative on this page i just want to cheer people up - Our very own Christopher Smalling is the first player in PL history to score two goals in the first half as a substitute. Very well done Christopher :)

Now to the business side.

We were bad today. In the first half. The second half was a completely different story, i did watch the game and what i saw was the 4-4-2 with wide men in the second half. Januzaj and Di maria being wingers and running at defenders. I personally enjoyed it (Don't shoot me). Januzaj is very young and he has become a whipping boy on this site and its not fair. He's about half the age of half of us on this page, he needs to be cared for and if we all turn on him he will leave, and be will be a quality player somewhere else.

Honestly some of us get to caught up in things that we have no control over - some on this site think LvG reads it and takes notes. He doesn't. So why can we all not be happy we are 3rd and that we won a game. I'd have given my house to be in this position last season.

Some people are never pleased, we could win the CL Final and some of you would point out when Rojo mis-placed one pass or when Di Maria didn't get round his man once.

I, like Shappy, enjoy a rant and this is mine today. So can we all cheer up please. Sometimes i feel suicidal reading this page.

Also just wanna point out i did say yesterday Januzaj and Di Maria on the wings would be better, it happened, we played better ;) (Maybe i should be manager next season)

Hope you all have a great thursday.

HarryUTD

12 Feb 2015 13:45:12
Clear off, Harry. We'll have no truck with that sort of naive, airy-fairy, wish-washy optimism around here. This is a grumpy site, for grumpy people!

Apologies Noucamp,

Next time i will think twice. :(

12 Feb 2015 13:55:00
Harry its OK I have been a bit pissed off by some of the recent posts myself so you are not alone

We have resident experts on here that express their opinion as fact and in most cases they have no idea what they are talking about.
eg the players are not fit??? I mean what a mental statement to make
or
They don't look happy and obviousl;y dislike the manage??/? again based on what?/

Im afraid we are sharing this page with a generation of spoilt brats who think that our club and players should do what they do on playstation. I fear some of the posters are great armchair fans who have never either played to a decent level or coached at all but they feel they know how to manage and analise and critisise experts at their jobs without any real knowledge of their own. But hey ho that's life nowadays,, Personally I tend to listen and read the people who are knowledgable not the ones who are noisey
1 poster here is obviousy an expert on body language / lip eading / fittnes / soccer tactics / player purchases / interviewing / appointing ceo's
where some of us are just mere mortals

Keep you spirit up and don't let the odd balls drag you down. :)

Harry, how dare you suggest we looked better in the second half. :)

I thought Di Maria played quite well in the second half. He looked a threat.

When Burnley got a draw at City last month, they pretty much presses city all over the park, and got their rewards for it. They worked their socks off just like they did last night. Yet, for all the running and respect that they have from the football world, they lost 3.1. They lost because they were unable to defend.

At the end of the day, no-one will care how well they played; they came away with nothing.

12 Feb 2015 14:46:20
Phew lads, I was beginning to think I was the only one with my opinion!

Just to clarify - this wasnt a personal attack on anyone, just find it odd the Burnley fans are probably happier than us.

Harry

I agree, we did look better in the 2nd half, I was almost crying during the 1st half. One can only hope LVG saw potential in a straight 442 and sticks with it. Personally I would add Herrera into midfield, drop 1 of RVP or Fakcao and play Roony as a floating no 10.

12 Feb 2015 16:32:06
Good post Ken have to say I agree with you there somewhat.

We won yesterday, regardless of the fact that ideally we should have played better but the result is what's important. Also being 3rd in the league over halfway through the season is hardly anything to be negative after last season, if you have any sort of realistic perspective of course. People who could only come out with negative points after yesterdays game have clearly been spoilt over the last two decades.

12 Feb 2015 19:56:26
I enjoyed this post and thread. Was a pleasure to read after the recent mountain of negativity (not judging)!

12 Feb 2015 21:10:33
And just to be a pedant, Harry, you ARE the only person with your opinion :)

13 Feb 2015 11:36:56
HoneyBadger - Glad you enjoyed it :)

Noucamp - Then i will stand alone :)

12 Feb 2015 11:51:17
I think the players are against the manager in the main and are just not saying anything publicly. Is it any coincidence that Falcao & ADM have looked very poor for several months, arguably our two world class players, look anything but world class?

Our two other former world class talents have been paid off. Rooney with captaincy, and RVP with play no matter what.

We then have DDG with no new contract being signed and our other very talented players Herrera & Mata both not getting a kick - no coincidence they are both very intelligent and can see straight through the managers nonsense!

So ultimately the only players that look reasonably happy are the youngsters who are grateful for the chance to play. The rest all look very out of sorts and very annoyed - I look at the players even when they score and it has a sort of reluctance to it, a kind of "do you think the manager will mind us running about celebrating or should we get straight back into position" feel to it all.

I noticed several months ago the incredulous look on some of our players faces on the bench as LVG was making tactical changes - I genuinely think they don't like him.

Our most consistent outfielder has been Blind - shock horror one of LVG's favourites. People talk about our spirit at the moment, but I don't see it, I see a group of individuals all either very unhappy or going to bed with a guilty conscience because they have sold their soul.

Its a very unhappy, confused, sad and scared group of players we have on our hands and unfortunately the performances reflect that.

12 Feb 2015 12:21:12
Beast,

Mix up the words 'At' 'Clutching' and 'Straws' with this one.

You have no proof the players are confused, sad, scared, unhappy, delighted, bemused, sceptical, delighted or otherwise, you are judging this based on the look on players faces on the bench, if the players were as scared of him as you seem to suggest why would they be looking so bemused when on camera, surely this would get them in major trouble? So your points make no sense.

Hasn't Falcao slid on his knees in front of the fans after every goal he's scored? Didn't Wilson run over to the fans and celebrate the 3rd goal against Cambridge, didn't Herrera get cautioned for celebrating against Yeovil? I could go on, but I feel I might have made my point on this one.

Maybe go away and come back with something a bit more substantial.

You mean like they disliked Moyes'?

Yeah, it really shows beast. We are losing left right and centre and and miles off a CL spot lol.

Results are more important to me. I have got passed the performance issues. As long as we get top 4 that is job done as far as I am concerned. I aspect that is the view of the manager and the top brass. I mean it obvious that a number of players in the side don't possess the football brain to play the way the manager wants.

Whilst I fail to understant the continued logic of playing Rooney in CM, LVG, it should be remembered, wasn't the first manager to try this.

Sorry Beast but that is not what I have seen, nor is it reflected by the obvious spirit of the team, particularly when scoring late goals.

12 Feb 2015 12:42:38
Beast I think you are mixing up our players with your good self.

18 games 1 defeat

We are not playing attractive football at the moment but it will come I have no doubt

still in fa cup and are quarter final bound

We have conceeded 9 goals in 18 games

There is still a lot to get sorted but 1 thing at a time and the one thing that matters at the moment more than anything else is results.

Team you praise regularly are doing no better than us results wise in fact many are doing worse. we beat draw with west ham we are crap but southamton draw at home and you say nothing . Arsenal were lucky v Leis to scrape through with a worse result than ours and you say nothing.

Things are far from perfect but they are improving and will continue to improve.

I have no idea what the long or indeed med term plan is with regard to LVG's future but I am pretty sure he is addressing most issues in the correct manner and he needs to be given time and at least 1 more window to get in some more personal that fits his way of thinking then we will see less square pegs in round holes.

Chelsea have been poor in a number of games as have City; yet, I don't hear the same nonsense by so called football experts being repeated.
Now we have people talking about Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool as if they are streets ahead of us lol. Yeah, the recent games with both Liverpool and Spurs proved that.
Arsenal were worse than us against Burnley the other night, but according to our resident experts, they will finish in the top 4 no problem.

People, including some of our own fans it would seem, just want to put the boot in for what ever reason.

We should all be backing the team and manager. He has us in third ffs.

12 Feb 2015 16:46:46
You seem to have quite the imagination Beast, feel like i'm reading something that should be titled 'The only way is United' or 'Made in Manchester'

12 Feb 2015 17:52:34
A post too far there, Beast. You lost me with this one, mate.

12 Feb 2015 11:27:28
All this bashing of Moyes from the LVG loyalist camp is really starting to irk me. By no means am I saying Moyes did a good job but there were many mitigating factors as to why he didn't fulfil our expectations. Before he had even began at United he was already sipping from a poison chalice.

He arrived at a time were we had just won the league and the board failed to improve our squad or give him financial backing the way LVG has had. He identified targets to take us up a level Fabregas, Baines etc and was let down by the board. Adding to this he effectively paved the way for Shaw and Herrera to join LVG at OT.

His team were riddled with injuries more so than LVG's during his tenure. Adding to this he was competing in the CL with an ageing team that had zero rejuvenation in the transfer window. He had to rely on youth and players he wanted to replace.

On top of this he was unfortunate to come in at a time where Arsenal had their best season for 10 years, Liverpool their best for 20 who were scoring for fun. Title favourites City were rampaging on and the Mourinho factor was back at the bridge. Without Investment even SAF would have struggled last year and LVG without his £160million would have finished 10th based on this years performances.

If Moyes was in charge this season Rooney would be up top, Herrera would play every game and we would play four at the back. Januzaj would be developing and he wouldn't be afraid to drop a certain RVP.

If you want to laud LVG then fine but to put Moyes down for struggling without investment during arguably the toughest premier league season is ignorant and pigheaded.

12 Feb 2015 12:06:14
Juan,

I presume this is aimed at my replied to GCU below, I am not going to go into it again, but I have certainly not 'lauded' LVG, I have just simply stated comparing him to Moyes is ridiculous.

It is easy to say 'if Moyes was here this season then we would be doing so and so' with no facts that this is the case and when nobody can prove you wrong, but based on last season I don't see why we would suddenly be really good this year.

I am intrigued why LVG would have finished 10th inheriting a team of champions when he has a team that finished 7th in 3rd place or is that just you making another point that is impossible to backup or argue against?

Also - The Media were drumming up a lot of negativity about Moyes's experience, the opposite with LVG - he was the best thing since sliced bread (1928 haha) coming into the job.

Many fans were angry with Moyes for deploying "un-Utd" tactics at the end of games mainly - LVG gets a lot of praise (not by all) for salvaging points using long balls and playing Fellaini - hypocrisy.

Moyes was let down time and again by key players - DDG cup semi against Sunderland stands out - it simply hasn't happened for LVG, look at that Ings chance last night not being scored.

Cup draws for Moyes were a nightmare (we only just got beat by a great Bayern team remember) - LVG the exact opposite (MK Dons, Yeovil, Cambridge, Preston) come on!

Woodward was inexperienced with Moyes and got criticised - he then makes a statement of intent with LVG by going crazy in the market.

Old guard reluctant to change with Moyes's methods - LVG no longer has the old guard.

Everything was stacked against the guy, he was out of his depth without a shadow of a doubt and we were not pleasing on the eye. But everything is far worse now and this guy has major advantages!

Juanmatasbeard

I am no LvG loyalist as you put it, he wasn't my choice but LvG had a far more poisoned chalice than Moyes. Moyes just didn't have the acumen to do the job, got sacked and is now thankfully joyfully history. You should direct your frustration at those who keep mentioning him and trying to excuse Moyes and comparing him, wrongly, with LvG. I didn't want LvG but accepted he had at least the right level of experience to be considered for the role. Let's move on from a dark few months in our history and stop excusing the inexcusable from last season.

@jmb @Ed001

Read the debate on Moyes further down the page.

I don't think Moyes was the right man for the job, in that I don't think he could have won us the league or Champions League even if we didn't have the best squad by far (something the likes of Jose, Sir Alex etc. can do and what a Manchester United manager should be capable of).

But I don't think he is a poor manager who cannot get a team into the top 4 if the squad is good enough to be there. Also, he did a good job at Everton, and some Evertonians may have started to realize that by now.

Imo he was doomed to fail from the very start for the following reasons :-

1. He was given a 6 year contract and was in a false sense of job security along with the image that "Manchester United give their managers time and don't sack them within months".

His subsequent interviews have highlighted his surprise at being sacked. He was genuinely made to believe that he would be given time and this was a long term project.

2. He didn't make his biggest mistake during the season but before it started.

Point 1 meant that he was far more relaxed and didn't rip up the squad as soon as he came. (He has said that in the recent documentary). He gave the existing squad a chance.

I think this was his biggest mistake and we were always going to finish out of the top 4 after that.

3. It is clear Rio, Vidic and Evra were finished. Vidic isn't even in the squad in Italy! Add to that only one Manchester United standard midfielder and poor wingers.

Moyes may not have been the right manager, but he isn't blind. He did identify the weaknesses in the squad.

He was made to believe that the club would sign Bale/Ronaldo, Fabregas/Thiago, Fellaini, Baines/Shaw. Also I seem to remember the editor suggesting that David Gill went to Spain at the time to discuss Di Maria.

Its not Moyes' fault that the club had a disastrous summer window where they couldn't get any of his targets. There was no "we will spend what it takes" approach that year which was there this summer.

He identified 2 midfielders, a left back and winger was needed and if brought in, we would have finished top 4 imo. Our squad was probably 5th or 6th best last year in the league.

4. The failed summer window meant that Moyes had to rely on players who weren't in his long term plans and he thought he was going to be given time.

5. It is now clear that RVP is off the pace and is looking past it yet Moyes was blamed for his form. Also Jones, Evans, Smalling have persistent injuries and are not consistent in defense.

6. Moyes came in after Sir Alex had won the league with the worst squad to win the league in years which meant he came in with the target of having to win the league unlike LVG who only needs to make the UCL spots. That makes a big difference on pressure.

7. Arsenal, LFC, Everton, all had great seasons last year, unlike this year and had strengthened in the summer while the club couldn't secure Moyes' targets.

To summarize, I think Moyes simply became the fall guy for everything that was wrong at the club.

P.S. I have said at the beginning that I don't think he was right for the club to win the title/UCL. I hope the usual suspects stay away from the usual rhetoric about Moyes. The amount of vitriol that some have exhibited against Moyes is a bit shocking.

My problem with Moyes' is quite simple: He should have listened to SAF. He was the architect of his own demise.

Nice guy and I wish him all the best. But he wasn't the right person to do the job ultimately.

@GDS2

LVG has a team that finished 7th last season with the small change of having completely let go of most that team and added 150mil worth of talent into it. Our squad is good enough to finish third season, more than good enough in fact and we should be quite a few points away from the 4th placed side.

LVG has cost us points with his tactics, formations and playing players out of position. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.

12 Feb 2015 12:33:19
GDS - why is it ridiculous to compare the two? They are the only two whom we can compare in the modern era so for you to say it is ridiculous to compare is ridiculous in itself.

Did you read my post GDS? I said he would have finished 10th based on this years performaces (complete anti-football) when you consider the lethal form of our rivals last year.

To say he 'has them in third' is fine but he has spent £160million and was backed by the board. If Moyes was given the go ahead to bring in Cesc, Baines, Herrera and Bale, the lads he wanted, would he have finished 7th?

If you like LVG that's fine, but there is no need to constantly bash Moyes.

12 Feb 2015 12:37:17
Red Man - If LVG doesn't finish in the Champions League spots after splashing buckets of cash combined with the dross he has been serving up as performances then this season must be considered worse than Moye's.

Is that a fair statement?

12 Feb 2015 12:46:49
Juan,

Today is the first time I have mentioned Moyes for about 6 months, I have no interest in comparing the 2, that was my point, I have not constantly bashed him, he was rubbish, we finished 7th, there was no saving grace.

And Beast, you say Moyes was let down time and time again by key players suggesting LVG hasn't been, which as you well know, is rubbish.

Jmb

Simple answer is no, totally different starting point. Like I said we lost the fear factor and all momentum due to last season. If LvG doesn't make the top 4 and gets the sack I won't shed a tear but by previously appointing someone without the acumen to do the job we created a perfect storm as we did after Busby. To arrest the fall it will take some doing and the money doesn't give us back the momentum and fear of us that we lost, that takes time and results, it doesn't just happen by spending. There is no comparison between LvG and Moyes, we need to move on.

GDS2 - Moyes was under pressure to play the "Man Utd" way, he tried and the players let him down, so he had to resort to the rubbish we were served. LVG is forcing the team to play his "anti-football" way and as such is letting them down.

Moyes was out of his depth, but LVG is even further. Shame but it happens.

12 Feb 2015 13:51:21
I think he would argue he is well and truly within his depth, his target was top 4 and a good cup run, he is 3rd with a decent chance in the cup.

Give me LVG's anti-football over Moyes' rubbish any day of the week.

I recall fans calling Jose First Chelsea team a team that plays anti-football, but look where that got them.

Give me LVG's anti-football over Moyes' rubbish any day of the week.

I recall fans calling Jose First Chelsea team a team that plays anti-football, but look where that got them.

Moyes was plain rubbish simple as that. Whether anyone is lvg supporter or not doesn't matter one bit. Moyes was never a United manager and let's hope that is the end of that one. He is utter rubbish and that's putting it politely.

12 Feb 2015 07:20:37
Fair enough our performance last night was woeful. Even LVG has stated Burnley were the better team. Yes at OT we were outplayed by the least reputable club in the league. But not to be all doom and gloom, we needed those points badly and have regained third spot.

My problem at the moment is our £160million summer outlay. I keep looking at our team and with the new additions there is no logical way to fit all these players into the first team. This makes me question LVG and Woodward because it seems we have just brought in expensive players erratically with no plan as our main issues, as of this moment, are still to be addressed.

Herrera at £30million should be playing every game. Falcao seems more and more like a panic buy or a 'lets get the fans on side' signing more and more by the day. As for Di Maria he doesn't fit any system we play with the players at our disposal. Folk will say use this tactic or that tactic but it is a pointless debate because quite simply whatever way we play he cannot sparkle in our team as our other players lack the attributes he needs to perform.

In my opinion or biggest problem right now is trying to play and work around Di Maria and Falcao. They are holding us back because they do not fit in at all. It's ironic that the players signed to increase our strength this season are fast becoming our greatest weakness.

Falcao is still on loan, I hope he isn't signed permanently!
AdM played left of the diamond at the start of the season and flourished! So did Herrera and even Fellaini on the right.

12 Feb 2015 08:36:08
Falcao signed for £6millon plus massive wages.

Di Maria did not flourish. He started well and made an instant impact which is often the case. The lad has not performed since October.

Because he hasn't played that position since .

For me it is RVP that is the fly in the ointment forcing Rooney, Falcao, ADM to play out of position and Herrera not to play at all. I stand up for the manager but his obsession with playing RVP is the driver of more than one issue and that for me is where we should be looking.

Well said Red Man

I think that all the problems stem from playing Falcao and RVP up top, they cannot play together as are too similar, RVP is like van Gaals lovechild he can do no wrong.Play one or the other. Falcao is being setup to fail and has no chance whilst RVP plays.
Rooney is getting deeper and deeper in midfield he looks a shadow of his former self he needs to be behind the striker or don't play him.
Herrera cannot get a kick yet the team looks 100% better when he plays. As it's going we'll be lucky to get top 4.
Best thing I've seen lately is someone called van Gaal Louis van Moyes sums it up in my head

12 Feb 2015 10:54:07
Why are we all defending Di Maria here? He has been wasteful and poor since October. Everyone is quick to jump down the Managers throat but are full of praise for under performers?

If his name was Angel Davies we would all be on his back. Hypocrites.

Well get used to it because according to LvG last night RvP played well

The problem isn't Di Maria. Its the static players around him and lack of movement and pace.

12 Feb 2015 11:30:52
That is what I said RF. Games are passing him by at the moment and if LVG is insisting on two up top the Herrera must replace Di Maria. Rooney won't be dropped and Blind has been good this year.

12 Feb 2015 12:25:34
Pardoe

You are preaching to the converted but I don't necessarily think having RVP play instead of Falcao is a big Disaster. Having them 2 and rooney in midfield is what is a disaster and shambles of a set up.

BTW watch the game, rooney has poor sense of positioning to make himself available for a pass from defense or when we are marked on the wings and does not give them an outlet. He tends to make diagonal runs and take the pass and pass it back to them, a bit like cleverly used to. The only guy who takes a pass in the correct area and turns to move forward is herrera.

Moyes would not play Rooney in midfield and only did when we had no options and had enough sense to know you have to have one of the leagues best predators in the hole.

This man who I thought was going to transform us is only about his ego and thinks he knows better, unfortunately for him he has been shown the door at almost every club he has worked at the last 5 or 10 years.

BTW when Ed002 says people already want him out at the club, I have also heard the same thing from an ex united player who was on Bein Sports as a pundit and he says he is most likely gone even if we get top 4.

11 Feb 2015 23:37:03
Well that's another 3 points we've scraped lol not the best too watch but we're up to 3rd at least . On a positive it was nice too see Herrera get some game time, I thought he played quite well, and the cheer he had when he came on should speak volumes to lvg . 😉 we still lack urgency and pace tho, poor old Falcao had a bit of a nightmare tonight, he couldn't trap a bag of cement, its a shame because you can see he's a really good player but it just isn't happening for him here . And poor old Rooney being shoved into midfield is more and more baffling by the week, he was our defensive midfielder half the time, one of the most prolific goalscorers in the premier league and he's protecting our back 4 lol but a win is a win I suppose, so I'm trying not to b too pessimistic lol but come on Louis keep Herrera in the middle and get Rooney back up top

The falcao that set the secnd goal up he makes the runs the rest can not see and that's his fault rathef have him than rvp

12 Feb 2015 00:50:56
Yeah that Falcao, the one that lost the ball everytime it came too him . He had a first touch like a baby elephant tonight , that's why he was taken off early !! I hope the guy comes good because u can see he's a class act , and he gets into some great goalscoring positions, like all natural goalscorers do , but he's not putting the ball in the back off the net which is wat we're paying him so much money too do . I hope comes good because he offers more than rvp , will he come good before the end of the season and prove he's worth buying permanent? I'm not sure

12 Feb 2015 06:58:36
Dazw I dunno how u can argue lol falcao had a mare tonight, I like the bloke and am confident he will find his best form but tonight he was bad. Maybe it's a case of trying to hard.

Shambles of a performance and posted a few days ago that this managers savings grace might unfortunately come from injuries to certain player, which will force him to play people in their right position. Jones is a rubbish defender and a Joke how he defends corner and Herrera's introduction which gave us some bite in the second half although burnely were pushing forward and must have thought we can stick it to these guys as i would have if i were on the pitch. Herrera's was not a managerial break through but was forced on him.

I guess 3 points is what will keep everyone happy and his support brigade but IMO even a bigger mistake of an appointment than Moyes and this guy is useless and after swansea our fortunes will turn as those teams in our run of fixtures will not be as accommodating or we will not have lady luck smiling on us.

He is out of his debth and completely unprepared for this league, getting battered at home for 45 minutes by a 19th place team against a team of superstars is purely the managers fault and whatever he is preaching to them in training is utter sh. t.

12 Feb 2015 08:20:44
GCU,

As you want to keep comparing lvg to moyes at this stage last season we had 41 points and drew our next game. This season we have 47. I don't like comparing lvg to moyes because moyes was inept, didn't get the points he needed a dragged us down to 7th. It's been done to death, he might not have got us playing very well but he was not a worse appointment than moyes, it makes you look a bit daft even suggesting that.

Also you keep telling us 'our fortunes will turn' but it has yet to happen. I thought you weren't watching anymore anyway so how do you know what happened last night? ;)

12 Feb 2015 08:22:50
Think it's safe to say falcao 'had one' last night, the more it went wrong the harder he tried and the worse he got. I would have taken him off at half time even though we had used 2 subs.

Strangely, i find myself agreeing with all that post gcu.
However, you still haven't answered my question about scousers making top4? Three months ago when i suggested they'll come good, you were adamant that they'll be mid table. And of course you were completely wrong on that, so let's hope that we're all wrong about lvg and let's hope he can turn us into a good team.

GDS I hear what you are saying but to put it into perspective at this time last season Arsenal were top of the League, Liverpool were obliterating the opposition (eventually going on the score 100+ goals), city were winning game after game, Chelsea were lurking and Everton were probably playing the best football in the league.

If LVG gets champions league then great, for me he gets another crack again next year but don't pretend he hasn't had luck shining on him. Say what you want about Moyes but with half the luck LVG has had Moyes would still be in our hot seat in my opinion.

12 Feb 2015 09:20:52
Juan,

At what point does it stop becoming luck though? How many times am I going to hear that the luck will run out only for us to be 'lucky' in the next game. We might not be playing that well and the first half performance last night was an embarrassment, but we still kept possession alright, and in the 2nd half they only had 1 chance from a silly mistake, after that they never looked like scoring. We have had luck this season, but we have also been unlucky, 2 penalties against Burnley away we should have had, the penalty against Leicester that changed the game.

I know how bad we were last night, LVG knows how bad we were last night, but we won 3-1 and moved up to 3rd, it is not as bad as a lot of people are making out.

GCU compares LvG to Moyes And tries to convince people Moyes was better, when clearly he isn't, wasnt and never will be. GCU stood so firmly behind Moyes even when it was completely obvious Moyes was totally out of his depth and it seems to be a pride issue now. The false comparison won't become relevant unless LvG finishes 8th. I wish some like GCU would just accept they were wrong over Moyes and get over him. LvG is not doing great but look at the difference in what he inherited. Moyes took on the the champions who everyone feared and left with the team a shivering wreck feared by no one. It is called momentum and Moyes destroyed it. LvG picked up a team with no confidence and more importantly the lack of the fear factor due to Moyes incompetence. The SAF transition was appallingly handled, then the second transition saw LvG arriving late after the World Cup to find a shambles. The top level back room staff had been replaced by a bunch perennially finishing outside the top four so this was more than just a top level management change. The club gave LvG a 3 year deal after failing to convince the players Moyes would really be there for his 6 year deal, so from one extreme to another. This situation is here because the club failed to learn from the Busby change and again appointed someone too inexperienced. We dug a big hole and are now trying to clamber out and as Liverpool found in 1990 it isn't easy.
When they update the history books it won't be GCU's Moyes they write about that's for sure.

Nomid

I had us Arsenal, City and Chelsea finishing top 4 even before the season started in AJH poll and had us finishing 3rd.

3 months ago I thought we would kick on as would arsenal especially given our light fixture schedule and injuries getting out of the way and whatever this guy is preaching coming good.

Unfortunately since then what has happened is Arsenal, who had a worse injury crisis than us has pushed on and yes they have their occasional blip but they have a great run of fixtures ahead of them and expect them to pick up points in bunches. They always come good in the second half and Wenger has made a living out of this.

On the other hand we are unfortunately getting worst and these performances are not a coincidence and just a bad week as they are consistent and no one can deny that. It has me believing we will miss out and he is going to get sacked. Still not sure about Liverpool or spurs but one of those 2 will get in.

Moyes did not have

Di Maria, Falcao. Herrera, Luke shaw, Rios, Blind to call on.

He had Vidic, Ferdnand, Evra on their last leg, Rooney and RVP taking turns on the physio table and Smalling, Evans, Jones doing their usual one week in 3 weeks injured.

He also had Fellaini with a hamstring issue and then a broken wrist and was hardly fit to play.

He had Rooney wanting to leave the club and certain senior players who were told they were not being extended with new contracts being disruptive and not putting out.

If you can't see the difference between the two scenarios then you are blinder than i thought.

He was screwed before he even started and would have us much higher in points than this guy. This guy is an egit as the irish say.

12 Feb 2015 10:04:28
Moyes had the funds available that LVG had so your point about the players is irrelevant. I cannot believe you are still banging the Moyes drum, it is making you sound ridiculous.

'He would have us on much higher points than this guy', but he didn't did he, he was on less points at the same stage.

You can make all the excuses in the world, if Evra was on his last legs why didn't Moyes sell him and replace him? The 3 defenders you named have done the same this year and will always be injured every other week, LVG has had more injuries.

There are so many points I could make to argue with you that I am struggling to decide which are the most relevant at the moment, what was your excuse for the 3-0 defeats at home to City and Liverpool? Guess they weren't Moyes fault either.

Your obsession is worryingly off the mark and makes me think hard about your opinion on other things.

{Ed001's Note - seriously speaking, you know Moyes tried to replace Evra, well the club did, but Woodward failed to clinch a deal with any of the chosen targets. To blame Moyes for that is, quite simply, ridiculous. I am no fan of Moyes, I don't think he was, is or ever will be good enough for Man Utd, but he was not responsible for the lack of players bought.}

GDS2

No obsession but 100% believe he would have us in the 50s points region.

Your blindness to what is right in front of you is even worst.

During the 2013 season and after it in that summer I and a very select few said that team was grossly overrated and only won because mancini had a melt down at city and chelsea was in disarray.

It was matter only a matter of time when things fell part and people like yourself attacked me for that and kept talking about 11 points.

This teams points total is deceiving and this manager is useless and only a matter of time and not if but when things go off the rail.

With a 150 million of expenditure and mata in his first full season and a healthy fellaini, I would think the least we should expect is to be better off and 6 points is a poor return IMO after all last year was a disaster so why use that as a bench mark.

Liverpool lost Suarez and arsenal had their early season issues or we would be no better off.

BTW if you can't see the difference of last years Liverpool team to this year you are truly need some help LOL.

It is not us who have suddenly improved it is them them were in shambles early season but credit to the Irish guy he has got them settled with 8 new players and his fair share of issues with injuries.

12 Feb 2015 10:32:44
Ed001,

Fair play, I maybe went over the top with that post, like I said I had so many points to make I couldn't make them all, I just despair with people who think Moyes was so good and had everything against him.

I don't think LVG is doing particularly well, but we are 3rd and are a difficult team to beat, last season we were just as bad and weren't getting the results either.

{Ed001's Note - just thought you needed a bit of balance mate, I understand it is a tough call, though personally I think both Moyes and LVG are the wrong managers, neither are buying the players. In fact Moyes wanted both Shaw and Herrara last season, who have both been bought since, so it is harsh to pick on him not buying.}

12 Feb 2015 10:54:04
Ed 001 wats your views on this style lvg is trying too instill ? I'm not a fan personally, but i'd like your take on things , I think we've got some good players , but they need to b played in they're proper position , and allowed too play quick attacking football , and of course the other question is do you think lvg will still be here at the beginning of next season ? Thanks in advance m8

{Ed001's Note - I don't think LVG knows what style he actually wants to be honest. In his periods of success, he has always had a plan to follow which was set out for him. It was never him deciding the tactics, now it is. He just looks a little lost. He needs a plan to follow, but he is trying to prove he can do it himself, and that is where it falls down. He simply isn't as smart as he thinks he is, and so he is overthinking what is a simple game. Eventually it catches up to you, no matter how good the players are you have. He is just lucky to have some top class finishers available to keep United picking up results. The fear factor vanished in the Moyes era, but LVG is doing nothing about bringing it back, as Burnley will attest. The other teams are going into games with you thinking they have a chance, that your luck will turn soon and someone is going to benefit big style.

I am not convinced that is true, I think you will carry on picking up points for bad performances until the day he is moved on. That good performances will be rare and the smaller clubs will always fancy their chances, but I don't see you folding any time soon. It is just that it is going to be dreary to watch under LVG until the day he is relieved of his duties.}

12 Feb 2015 11:21:18
GCU,

But we have a lot more points than last season, so the argument from a few weeks ago where the other teams are doing worse so that's why we are higher isn't valid. There is only one of us using last year as a benchmark, you keep bringing up Moyes, I think comparing LVG to Moyes is a joke, compare him to Fergie and you will see he is not doing a great job.

For what it's worth I agree with Ed001 that Moyes and LVG are the wrong managers, especially for the long term.

12 Feb 2015 11:31:16
GCU, that's one of the worst attempts at spelling, 'eejit', I've ever seen :)

12 Feb 2015 11:55:15
Thanks for that ed001 , completely agree m8 , do u think lvg will b still b here after the summer ?? Could b worth a cheeky little punt on a him leaving lol

{Ed001's Note - I would be surprised if he was the manager next season, there are already certain powerful parties within the club who want him out.}

Noucamp

LOL used to date a irish girl many years ago and first time I heard it LOL. Funny word though.

Ed001

Thank you for the honest views always interesting to hear a neutrals view. I have nothing against this guy I just think he is more hype and completely lost and clueless and this is as bad as you can play given our squad and a mid level pl manager would get better results.

He is more suited to Fifa 15 with his theory of the game. His reaction to Sam's comment are so embarrassing I don't want anyone like that near my club. He is like the mad professor LOL.

I love the defensive stats people keep mentioning, Burnley should have had 4 or 5 yesterday and we are just that one match away from getting hammered by someone and that will kill the last ounce of confidence we have which is at the moment getting us through. Maybe i am wrong but i do not believe we will finish top 4 and by end of march will be looking up.

{Ed001's Note - I was shocked by his reaction, it was cringeworthy.}

GDS2

Let me ask you simple question hypothetically on LVG. Let's say we Finish 6th after having spent 150 to improve the squad and all time record spend in british football history also keeping in mind that we did not lose any key player or superstar that we needed to replace. (suarez issue and liverpool)

If that happens, would it be fair to say he was the worst appointment for United in the last 30 to 50 years?

12 Feb 2015 12:51:15
GCU,

Yes obviously, but unhypothetically, we are 3rd.

Sorry but different starting points for the two managers regardless of money spent. We totally lost momentum and any fear factor under Moyes and you can't just switch that back on easily. Moyes nor LvG were good appointments for me, however the Moyes one took the club a massive step backwards and could be the defining moment since Wilf McGuiness was appointed unless we arrest the slide. The next appointment will be absolutely vital, they need to get it right.

12 Feb 2015 13:19:39
thanks ed001 , top stuff m8

{Ed001's Note - you are very welcome mate.}