Manchester United Banter Archive November 12 2018

12 Nov 2018 14:48:28
so the Jose out talk has began again.

but realistically who could we go for. i can't think of any standout managers to come in and instantly change it.

12 Nov 2018 15:03:42
There are none. We need to rebuild. There is no manager who can come in and wave the magic wand and fix everything in a matter of weeks.

A manager who will play modern progressive football while developing young players is what we need.

12 Nov 2018 17:07:07
Shortlist of 5 plausible names that would fit the model:

Zidane
Howe
Jardim
Nuno Santo
Pochettino.

12 Nov 2018 17:20:02
Allegri, Spaletti, Ancelloti, Marcelo Galllardo (River plate)?

12 Nov 2018 17:27:59
Zidane's playing style is very similar to what Jose does imo, sit back and hit on the counter, Jardim is average. Eddie Howe has done wonders with the squad he has, does he have that pedigree to manage Manchester United?
Pochettino is good when it come to Premier league games, but i see a completely different Tottenham team when they play in Europe.

12 Nov 2018 17:33:27
I really don't get the love in with Zoe and. I know he won the Champions League 3 times, but I don't think his style of football is overly attacking but he was blessed with Ronaldo who won games on his own. Can't remember much youth being developed at Madrid while he was there either.

I'd rather avoid him and (If we were to change manager) go for someone who actually fits what we want rather than being a big name - big names advent worked out well with players or managers recently.

12 Nov 2018 17:33:58
Marco Silva?

{Ed025's Note - keep your mitts off rohan.. :)

12 Nov 2018 18:09:03
Not interested in any manager until we have the right person in post as DoF.

Then we can set out our plans on scouting, youth development, player recruitment and style of play.

The DoF cannthen select the next Head Coach with the other Directors.

We need to be in it for the long term and get things right.

Don’t want the current manager sacked or to leave unless we have a DoF in post or ready to takeover.

12 Nov 2018 19:52:18
Bielsa? If he could speak English.
Or Allegri and the staff from the main structure of Juventus. I like the way juventus have played this season.

12 Nov 2018 20:08:43
I really like Howe but i think first the club needs to appoint a DoF and then he/ she will decide who the next manager should be. One thing i know for sure, the special one is not special anymore.

12 Nov 2018 20:37:33
Give someone like Howe a chance, ticks a lot of boxes for work on and off the pitch ready for a big job.
Same goes for poch.

12 Nov 2018 21:15:25
Shouldn’t look any further than Poch for me. Top manager who improves players, brilliant man management skills and his teams play football the right way. Don’t buy into the doubts about his trophy credentials. With all due respect, he is at spurs. They aren’t expected or demanded to win trophies year on year. United is a step up that he craves and I can see him doing very well here. Add a director of football and we have a basis to build and restructure. Ed has mentioned Paul Mitchell and that would work very nicely as I believe he has worked with Poch previously as head of recruitment at Southampton and spurs.

12 Nov 2018 21:53:46
We bemoan Jose for not being great with signings. Eddie howe hasn't exactly got a great record.

12 Nov 2018 22:28:32
Angle
Is that not down to Bournemouth owners 🤣
Doing a good job with the players he has tho .
Excellent off the pitch, modern ideas that tie to the current DNA of football ideas.

12 Nov 2018 22:37:29
Bournemouth get to spend about 35 million a season on average, and made two, maybe three signings in each of the last 3 seasons. Brooks, Aké, Cook and Begovic have been good signings. Can't think of the ones you're referring to, Angel. Maybe Ibe. Lerna's taken a while to adapt, but looks to be a tidy enough player. I can understand people having doubts about Howe's experience, but I don't think you can slate him for his record in the transfer market. Especially compared to José's last three seasons.

13 Nov 2018 06:05:57
Double standards jred? Howe’s poor record at signings is down to the owners and not him whilst our poor signings are due to the manager and not the owners? Convenient!

Zidane’s style is the same as Jose. The only reason he won 3 UCL titles was due to one person you might be familiar with. He goes by the name Ronaldo. Ever thought why Zidane decided to take a break from Real’s managerial position (probably the best seat in the world) all of a sudden? Was it down to the fact that Ronaldo was moving away and he knew he was nothing without that magician.

13 Nov 2018 07:23:43
Shan, you honestly think Zidane has such low confidence in himself?

13 Nov 2018 10:34:40
Shane
It was a joke 🤣
Who are all the poor signings?

13 Nov 2018 10:35:16
Shan mourinho also had the same guy to manage at real I wonder why mourninho failed to win even 1 let alone 3?

13 Nov 2018 12:47:54
CSM, by your logic, SAF should have won 6? SAF had Ronnie for 6 years. My post was not about Jose, so for once please take your head out of his backside.

Anyway, I am ready to bet that Juventus would be the UCL champions this season. One reason and one reason only – Ronaldo.

Moon, I honestly think that people should just sit back, relax and enjoy the game for what it is – A GAME. If you don’t enjoy it, there are tons of other stuff to be done, go enjoy that. I can't stand the fact that people have so much time to just ramble on and on and on about the absolute same thing day in day out. I bet people have had the same post repeated countless times for the past 3 years.

Guys, its just a game. Don’t make it a matter of life and death. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it please. Nobody will force you to watch. I myself have been the guilty party to this for several years but I have understood that there are better things to do in life than vent out my frustration on a keyboard. I understand that people don’t like Jose Mourinho and that’s each to his own and we don’t have to agree to like him. But atleast respect the position he holds right now – The Manager of Manchester United, the club we all love. He won't be here for a century. Simply take a break like the great Zidane and come back when Jose is gone. Just reading photocopies of posts does my head in. I used to be on this page for 3-4 hours each day. I hardly come on here anymore simply for the reasons stated. We have all lost patience as a community and I am certain that the next manager will also get similar treatment once the results go downhill.

I am not a Jose fan, I am a United fan. I watch United and I don’t care if the manger is SAF, Busby, Jose, LvG, Moyes, Poch, Pep, Klopp, Bielsa, Zidane etc etc etc….

13 Nov 2018 14:06:23
I agree with you but you never answered my question as to whether zidanes ego is so small he doesn’t credit himself fot setting records unlikely to be matched.

13 Nov 2018 14:39:11
So your solution to mourinho being a useless manager is for utd fans to stop watching us play.

About ronnie stuff, fergie won 1 and made another final in ronaldo's last 2 seasons with us, if we had prime ronaldo with us for a few more seasons don't doubt fergie would have won more, unlike mourinho who couldn't even make finals.

13 Nov 2018 14:43:40
No Moon, i don't think so. No doubt he is a good manager but i also think deep down he knew that without Ronaldo in his team, Real would struggle and ultimately he would get the sack just like the latest Madrid manager has. No manager likes to be sacked so its better to take a break.

He would ofcourse be credited for 3 UCL titles as a manager but as a human, we all know our capabilities. I am sure he never thought that he would win so much so early.

{Ed001's Note - Zidane left because he was told Bale had to be centrepiece of the side and Zizou wanted to offload him and buy some new players.}

13 Nov 2018 16:45:23
And Ed, if Ronaldo stayed, Bale would never have been central. Now i am not in the know and not challenging what you state, just stating what a normal human would.

{Ed001's Note - Ronaldo was always leaving this summer as he was unhappy and arguing over his contract. Again. And Madrid had had enough of him and decided his salary demands outweighed his usefulness to them.}

13 Nov 2018 18:07:02
Well said UA. couldn't have said it better. Moon, i hope UAs answer satisfies you.

12 Nov 2018 14:00:33
I don't get this current idea that Jose should be allowed to keep signing experienced players without question or second thought.

When the club signs a player they sign them on a 4-5 year contract. Jose only has a contract until 2020. So any signings we make will likely be here longer than him. So the club needs to be sure that the players they sign will be of value beyond Jose's time at the club.

Of course Jose only cares about himself and therefore, that the players are of use to him. He doesn't help progress or develop young players as they will reach a point where they will be at their best after Jose has gone.

I'll use a an example. In Jose's second summer the club was looking for a new defensive midfielder. If you believe the press it came down to two names, Nemanja Matic and Eric Dier.

Now when we signed Matic many proclaimed him to be the better player. During his first season many thought we had signed the better of the two.

However, who would still say the same now? What about next season or the season after that?

Do you feel the club will be able to move Matic on in the next year or two or will the club be stuck with a player past his best on high wages. That player and his high wages may in fact limit the club on bringing in other players.

As was alluded to during the summer, when it was suggested the club needed to move players on to free up wages and space in the squad before they could seriously invest.

So would Dier or Matic have been the better signing in hindsight?

That is all the club is doing when putting the blocks on signing players for the here and now and not ones with a future.

Also saying the manager who has spent the second highest amount in the history of world football at one club has been denied money is rather disingenuous.

12 Nov 2018 15:19:25
That is a very good argument for having a director of football, to make sure that transfers are in accordance with a longer term philosophy. Right now that role presumably falls to Ed Woodward whose record thus far - over the course of 3 managers - is hardly stellar.

The real questions one has to ask is why are we finding it so difficult to locate and appoint someone, and is there any link between that failure and the inferior quality of so many of our signings for a period that goes back into the later Ferguson years?

12 Nov 2018 17:49:51
The fact that we didn't sign alderweireld or Willian tells me that day is over.

13 Nov 2018 03:59:18
Does Woodward get any credit for not sanctioning the sales of martial or Shaw because they have long term potential.

13 Nov 2018 06:13:05
Counter argument Shappy. Robin van Persie.

13 Nov 2018 10:33:54
Shan for every RVP we have a matic, and given mourinho's signing success we aren't going to see an RVP sort of a signing from him.

13 Nov 2018 11:24:20
Shan, their are always anomalies. I'll give you two lists of players, you can decide which you would prefer.

RvP, VDS, Zlatan, Matic, Sanchez, Mkhitaryan, Blanc and Larson.

Or

Ronaldo, Rooney, Shaw, Martial, Nani, Ferdinand, Evra and Anderson.

Hits and misses in both lists, yet most would prefer we signed the second list. Younger players who we can build up, rather than older players who have a limited number of years service left at the highest level.

13 Nov 2018 12:56:42
I agree Shappy, I would prefer the second list. But that is totally down to the person at the helm isn’t it? I would go for the second list but then I would also ensure that I have the right person who shares the same mentality. When we got Jose, we all knew what we were getting into. HE should have never been here if we wanted to go down the old United way. But when he was signed, we should simply do what he wanted and make sure that we got it right next time. My point is, if Jose was not to be backed in the summer, he should have been let go and someone else given the charge. We can argue that the two old signings in RvP and Zlatan have been success at the club, Premier League and Europa.

You can also argue, that for a Ronaldo and a Rooney, we had old heads in Keane, Scholes and Giggs who could channelize the youth in the right direction.

12 Nov 2018 12:34:22
Afternoon,

I haven't posted for some time, but feel compelled to chip into the debate that I do regularly read.

I'm going I start this post by saying that if I'm to nail my colours to the mast, I back Jose. He is clearly trying to drop expectations during his press conferences, in part I think because many of the players can't hack wearing the famous jersey. After three years, do you really think Jose has been able to build this team in his image? Whilst not he has spent money, he's made it clear his targets have not been pursued. Instead, younger players with resale value have been bought that can't do the job in a team lacking leadership at this level. Can you honestly say, Young, Smalling, Lindelof, Lingard, Herrera, Shaw and others would be his first choice? I think not. This team would look different, so different if we landed who he wanted: Aldeweireld, Alex Sandro, Perisic to name but a few.

Agreed, he has made some poor judgements. Signing Matic for example without getting the necessary players around him to make him effective. Pogba was a good buy, and Sanchez could come good but I got the impression that one was Woodward making a name for himself again.

If Jose is backed in January and we sign a centre half and right sided forward we will comfortably make top 4, providing the gap isn't insurmountable by then. Pragmatic football is the only way to play with this lot, it was the same under LVG, the defence isn't there to allow for expansive play.

Two things happen with a new leader at the back: 1) Fewer goals conceded, 2) the release of the forward players who have to sit behind the ball right now because the like said Young, Smalling, Lindelof etc have limited positional sense.

To conclude, please try and tell me that a team with a spine of De Gea, Aldeweireld, Pogba and Lukaku wouldn't be competing? Supported by the wide players and the confidence to go forward and leave the defenders to defend.

As an aside, Ed's I was wondering if any right sided players had been strongly linked? Thank you for naming the centre back targets.

12 Nov 2018 13:20:32
2 players won't make this a good team

Why do you think 2 new players will come in and play well when all the others haven't?

Wishful thinking and nothing more, actually take the red blinkered glasses of and take a step back.

Jose isn't going to turn this around just like he couldn't at Chelsea.
It's a case of when not if he is sacked and once he is we can seriously start to build for the future .

Not every manager appointed is a success that's football happens at every club . Hopefully our next manager is the right man for the job.

12 Nov 2018 13:32:41
I agree jred.

12 Nov 2018 13:34:27
Mourinho has signed three 29 year olds (Mkhitaryan, Matic and Sanchez), a 36yo Zlatan, and a 35yo Grant. So he has been given a certain amount of experienced players who he was allowed to bring in. If they aren't leaders then who's fault is that?

Of the other 6 players signed during Jose's time so far only Dalot could be considered a youngster. Fred and Lukaku are supposed to be approaching their peaks in the next couple of years. Pogba was 23 but hardly a unknown. Only Lindelof and Bailly at 22 could have been considered gambles on younger less established players. Although it should be said Mourinho himself has proclaimed his sources in Portugal tipped him off on Lindelof, so I think we can say he is clearly a Mourinho signing. Leaving Bailly as the one who could be questioned as whether he really was a player Mourinho wanted.

Jose has signed 11 players, in fact you could make a starting 11 out of Jose's signings. Grant, Lindelof, Bailly, Matic, Dalot, Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Fred, Sanchez, Zlatan and Lukaku.

So what do you make of Jose's United side? two have already left, and there are questions being asked of nearly all the others.

Jose has been given funds, only Pep has spent more money at one club in the history of world football than Jose has spent at United.

Is there an issue between the board and Jose on targets moving forward? It looks like there might be. But how much of that is because his previous signings have been poor investments both on and off the pitch?

You can't shift all the blame of Jose, If it was your money would you be so willing to hand it over to him based on his previous signings?

12 Nov 2018 13:50:52
Shappy and others,

What would you suggest the resolution is?

Change the manager or fully back the manager and sign off on the transfers he wants to make?

Whose to say the next guy gets to mold his team?

12 Nov 2018 14:12:33
The solution was never to hire a short term manager for a long term project.

The club needs restructuring, and by all accounts that process is underway. To fully back a manager, any manager who is unlikely to have a long or even medium term future at the club is utter madness. Especially if those signings are expensive and only short term solutions.

The money pot isn't bottomless, would you rather have the wrong man or the right man spend it?

The solution isn't a happy one, especially for fans this season.

The season is a right off, we are too far behind and require too much work to bridge the gap. Attempts to do so in January would be foolish. If the right profile of player (talent, suitability and age) is available then fine. But we know from experience they rarely are in January.

The club needs to focus on the rebuilding of the off pitch structure, identify the right person for the DoF role, bring him or her in. Then let them do the job they were hired for, let them work on who the next manager should be, let them work with that manager and scouts to identify the right players, for the short, medium and long term. Then work on attaining those targets.

Jose should stay for as long as is possible this season. However, come the final day of the season we should know who the new manager will be for next season. If Jose's position becomes untenable between now and then, then we need to look at short term options for a manager to guild us until the end of the season. Whether that is by giving people like Carrick or McKenna the job on a temporary basis or whether that means bringing in a experienced manager on a short term deal like Chelsea have done with Hiddink to bridge that gap.

12 Nov 2018 14:41:46
Jose has got to mould his team he just hasn't done a very good job of it.

12 Nov 2018 14:59:51
The simple fact is Pep bought a whole new team and has made it into a Pep's team where as Jose has to do with players not good enough for a top team and has to buy players that weren't probably his first choice and that is why it isn't a Jose team.

Dont employ a manager which isn't going to be backed propeely because you will end up in a position like ours.

12 Nov 2018 15:06:28
True Singh, I do wonder if Pep would have been backed if all the players he wanted to sign were 29 years old. I don't think Pep has signed a single player over 27?

Which might be why his board are more prepared to bring his targets in.

12 Nov 2018 16:03:31
Singh
Are you joking.
Jose has spent a vast sum of cash one of the biggest spends in world football . He has been backed.
Pep has taken city to a different level most points ever in the history of the EPL, arguably the best epl team ever .

Jose has taken us to the same points as Bournemouth and Watford .
Forget city we are no better than arsenal, spurs etc.

12 Nov 2018 07:29:01
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new article entitled, Review Of The Day 12th November 2018

12 Nov 2018 15:08:07
Mondays are great. Always look forward to "And finally" fun addition.

Just a side note ed1, I think Lewandowski scored to give Bayern 2_1 lead and thus Bayern board members were really happy. Dortmund then came back through a True goal and then Paco scored the winner.

{Ed001's Note - ah I must have misread the reports.}

12 Nov 2018 20:12:12
Sorry for being the police ed1.

{Ed001's Note - no, don't be sorry, I am glad someone is setting me right mate.}