Manchester United Banter Archive February 13 2014

13 Feb 2014 21:29:10
Just been thinking about this united team.

We all like to recommend formations and there is a constant debate on the team selection and so many opinions and views. There seems to be always something that peoples don't like when the first starting 11 are announced. It was the same the lat few years with fergie. It all points to how unbalanced this team is.

In the past most of our great teams just picked themselves. I don't remember people arguing about who should be the CB or the 2 mids or 2 wingers or even 2 strikers and those teams were such a good fit and not a compromised solution.

In contrast this team is full of compromise solutions and has been that way for some time. What is necessarily the most skillful group of players is also an issue because defensively it leaves an aging defense and slow midfield exposed. Too many similar players and not enough specialist I would say. Too many wingers but not enough quality on either side.

How many variations of starting 11s have we had in the last 2 or 3 years?

Shahram

There has been a lot of negativity about 442 but I don't think it's the formation, it's the players. Let's chnagea our middle 4 for Beckham, Scholes, Keane and Giggs in their prime. With Rooney and RVP up front we would be storming. Because we are playing badly people want to blame the system and get all creative. Yes we need to be more flexible but with the right players, whether it be ability or attitude, we wouldn't be in this pisition.

Tony

AJH

I agree. What has changed over the years is we have seen an ineffectiveness and loss of productivity from both wings and SAF would kept buying winger after winger in his attempt to solve it.

I personally don't see anything wrong with with wing play and in many ways that is how you can open teams up, I do believe our wingers collectively are very one footed and very poor crossers.

As you say if we had a gigs or Beckham type guys no one would complain in 442 because we would score for fun. Never the less the the current personnel is always a hot topic for debate and always a point of contention.

City have managed to do brilliantly still with the 4-4-2 as they have had Negredo and Aguero up top - they have been blowing teams away. Having two strikers is still a good way to go, but its the midfield that is the issue. None of our midfielders now would get into the era of Beckham, Scholes, Keane, Giggs (except perhaps Mata).

Fresh

I have points that out when people start going about 442 being tactically naive. The most devastating team uses it. It news certain players starting with 2 very god wingers and a box to box and very good distributor in midfield.

If we had a Modric/Vidal midfield and 2 good wingers, we would be fun to watch.

It news certain players

meant to say it needs certain players.

13 Feb 2014 19:20:03
Putting confidence and change of management aside, I think the biggest problem at the club is the really poor tactics and formation. I wonder how long we will persist with the 4-4-2? For me, we have to move to a 4-3-3 as a matter of urgency - a lot of the top teams use it and get width from their full backs. It works well for Madrid, has done for Barca etc. A front 3 of Rooney, RVP and Mata with Mata dropping off centrally would get the best out of him and then having 3 bodies in the midfield would stop us from getting over run - Fellaini, Carrick, Kroos would be good with Kroos being the most advanced.

Question is guys, what formation should we move to and will we move when Moyes gets the men that he wants?

I agree fresh we do desperatly need to get away from 442. But there's 1 main problem that's stopping us that being patrice evra! His lack of defending and effort to get back is the main reason I think we've stuck with 442. Only my opinion though. What I wonder is in the next few games would it be worth playing buttner? I know he's rough dound the edges but evra knows no matter how bad he plays he has no competition. Also if were not willing to play buttner there is absolute no reason to keep him come summer as he's not trusted by moyes.

Fresh

Teams that play 433 have forwards who can be as effective down the wings because they have pace and not esy to defend against as they are comfortable coming inside or going around the outside.

When was the last time you saw Rooney or RVP taking someone on going around them on the outside and scoring.

Madrid can play that style with Benzema, Ronaldo, Bale who are just totally different type of players.

Barca don't play 433 and it is some form of variation that they play, which is like a 4123 with busquet sitting further back in front of the back four and iniesta and xavi/fabregas as the 2 mids behind the front 3.

They have Neymar, Sanchez on either side of messi and no need to go into the difference of those 3 to what we have.

Easier for a team like Liverpool to play that way as Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho are all very fast and suit that system.

Our team is a team that has been designed to play 442. If you look at our strikers they all want to play in the hole or as the advanced forward and all struggle when they are moved out right or left and do a dummy spit. Our wingers are wingers and not forward and don't score many goals.

The reality is I think we will migrate to a 4231 next year once we have different players. We will always have an issue with rooney, mata, kagawa and it is going to be difficult to fit them all into that system.

I have read umpteen times where people criticize the manager for playing Mata or Kagawa out of position but no one has been able to answer a simple question, which btw fergie was also criticized for the same thing last year.

"Where do you play Rooney if you played kagawa or mata in the number 10"?

I can see why both managers have a dilemma because playing them in they ideal position negates rooney, which opens up such a can of worms with regards to the pros ad cons of rooney.

As far as the manger goes he must see rooney as the more important piece of the teams make up than kagawa and will always sacrifice kagawa.

It is too early to say where Mata might end up playing but that is also not going to be an easy decision. I thought signing mata meant rooney was leaving but it does not look like it.

We might be able to play a 4123 with Fellaini or carrick holding mata and kroos/ herrera playing as the two mid behind a front 3 that will need players like

reus-Janusaj (left)
RVP/ Cavani (center)
Di Maria/Sanchez (right side)

it is some shift from where we are and would men players like welbeck, hernandez, nani, valencia, Young will all need do be moved on. It will take more than one window to make the changes and ed002 estimates 18 months but I think it might take even longer and something like 2 summer windows given the required investment.

{Ed004's Note - Two interesting stats I saw today. Firstly was with Kagawa on the pitch utd have not gone longer than 45 minutes without scoring and RVP was getting a lot of grief for his effort the other night yet covered the 4th most ground out of all 22 players. I think the way forward is with either Rooney or RVP as the main striker. One must be sold IMO}

Ed, I can see RVP leaving I really can. This would solve a lot of problems but the problem is I would feel as though he would be such a loss. With injuries and an ageing RVP surely we could keep both but play him more selectively. I struggle to see a resolution though. We could do with the creativity of Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj.

{Ed004's Note - I honestly think Rooney should be sold tbh. I think we need to play Kagawa more}

Ed004

I understand where you are coming from but there are people who insist we can play them all together, which I just don't see. I think Rooney's contract situation makes the whole thing very difficult for moyes.

I honestly don't know what is the best combination of front 4, assuming we play a 4231. It would be interesting to see how we play with mata in the hole, kagawa left and janusaj on the right hand side and having those three switch positions sometime during the game with Kagawa playing central and mat moving out right or left with Janusaj.

The issue is he has had such a horrible start to his united tenure people will go nuts if he leaves rooney out or RVP out :)

Btw Who were the top 3 players in terms of covering the field?

{Ed004's Note - Carrick, Rooney and Arteta in that order}

I like Rooney and RVP independently but they don't seem to work well together. We would be stronger if we played Mata behind Rooney with two of Pedro, Lucas, Reus, Griezmann or Muniain down the flanks. Letting RVP go though would be impossible for Moyes to do.

Ed, where did you get that Kagawa stat from? Evil Kagawa?

{Ed004's Note - I dunno came across it in some article probably wrong}

Everton 1-0 United last season comes to mind Ed004.

{Ed004's Note - Then the stat was wrong might have been on average or something}

I have been calling for this change for quite a while now, and got laughed at when I suggested selling one of rooney/ rvp and using mata and kagawa in this way back in november when the possibility of mata potentially becoming available first came up.

but if we are to sell (preferably) rooney then we should use that money toward someone like draxler, reus or even gaitan, just to balance out the team.
with rvp, hernandez and henriques as potential strikers leading the line, you would then pick 3 of draxler, kagawa, mata, powell, januzaj, kroos (if we can get him) or valencia to play behind them, depending on how much width you want or movement through the middle.
i think the reason we haven't seen this so far is because we lack the strong midfield to build off of. what we need is a a strong defensive minded player to win the ball, and another to link the with the attacking players. at the moment we have carrick who could fullfill either role but no-one to play beside him. the closest we came was when we played jones next to giggs in europe, and it is no surprise that this was probably our best performance to date under moyes.
i would like us to get one of gundugan/herrera to play along side kroos, using fletcher, carrick and fellaini as back up as that would give the strongest potential competition for places through out the squad and would have players suitable for various systems be it the 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 (looking more like a 4-1-2-3) or a 4-4-2 if needed

My view is that Rooney should occupy the left hand berth of a three behind the striker with mata central and januzaj on the right.

I know that Rooney might not like it but he is the most naturally suited to that position due to his work rate. He could also be reminded that for £250k a week he can do what he's bloody well told!

It looks as though with Rooneys contract he has to be played otherwise Moyes knows he will simply not sign and walk out, which means kagawa isn't getting a lot of game time because of it.
Mata will be also played as he will have been told he will be a starter before signing, (not many start there debut when lacking match practice).
While Moyes' words pre season were taken out of context you can tell he prefers rvp over Rooney but as I said before Rooney holds the cards at the moment.

I would let him sign then sell him.
Let mata kagawa januazj play behind rvp.

I think its quite simple, we have an excellent GK. Crap Defense and midfield but an array of talent up front.

If we went 442 need 2 wingers 2 cm new center back, left back.

4231 new lb, cb, cm, poss 1 winger.

433 cb, lb, rb, 2 cm

I think 4 1 3 2 we would require less.

ddg
Raph Cb Jones/small LB
fellani
Adnan Mata Kagawa
Rvp Roon

2 may be 3 players, width from raph and new lb.

i just don't get the logic of selling rooney. best player we have.

Treble1999,
that 4-1-3-2 would get walked over in midfield, rooney may be our best player but we would be more balanced as a team without him. the simple matter is that because we have a weak midfield rooney drops too deep, yes he may come back to collect the ball but once he does, what then? he will either pass it short or try the hollywood pass, in which either way he is now massively out of position leaving less options upfront and attacks often breaking down.
having januzaj, mata and kagawa interchanging behind rvp or hernandez would be far more potent as both strikers are better are better at findind those pockets of space and getting on the end of through balls provided from those three, kagawa in particular would thrive as he is very good at arriving late into the box, again finding space for through balls.
also because all 3 players are better technically than rooney and with a better touch, we would be able to retain possession better relieving pressure from the defense, it may also allow us to play higher up the pitch to maintain pressure on the opposition as we wouldn't have to worry about tracking back as much (doubly important as we have a slow midfield)

dags

While Rooney and RvP are both top players I think Moyes has got to have the balls to drop either one if they're not playing their best. Personally I think Rooney was utter sh!te against arsenal apart from the one ball he did for RvP's good chance. Kagawa should have been brought on for Rooney and then put on the left with Mata going central and Januzaj on the right.

Agree with ed004 Kagawa needs to be given a run in his best positon or at least put on the pitch with both Mata and Adnan so they can all inter change. Can't be any worse than what's already happening on the pitch, I'm sure Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj would link up very well, along with RvP.

The solution to all our worries is oh so simple to see but seriously difficult to rectify. We all know we are weakest in the middle of the park and the addition of a true defensive midfielder with a bit of pace would solve most of our problems. It would give us cover when our fullbacks go forward, as well as that little extra pace to play a higher line. Our wide players wouldn't need to come inside to help as much, and our strikers wouldn't need to drop so deep as well. The addition of a single player in the mould of busquets would allow us to play a much more balanced side.

Elpaso

I know many say 1 cm I believe we need 2 CM that can cover the pitch going up and down with enough pace being able to pass also helps:)

Any of the top European teams have a group of 5 to 6 really good midfielders, which are a combination of attacking, holding and box to to box and allows them to tactically change personnel when needed.

Depending on who you listen we have 2 or 3 and that is also debatable :)

If anything I would earmark 60 million of our summer spending for 2 cm. Then spend the on a LB and CB.

I would look to churn our entire group of wingers (Nani, young, valencia, maybe zaha) in the next 24 months and replace them with better quality winger/forward type players.

Criteria number one for any new wide player would be a trial where they must demonstrate they can cross the f…g ball LOL.

13 Feb 2014 16:31:17
Come summer Rooney, Fletcher, Valencia, Carrick & Cleverley all have just one year left on their current deals - I wonder who will get new deals - personally I hope all of them do. Rooney as a major player and the others as squad players.

I thought carrick just got a 2 year extension recently.

Fresh

Wow did not know that. I do not believe they will offer fletcher or Valencia new contracts. There is more than 400k coming off the weekly age bill come this summer. That opens up a lot of salary band for new signing.

I posted about FFP a few days ago and how some clubs in europe and PL have issues with staying within the allowable expenditure levels. We on the other hand have a what I call massive room to do what other can't and funny woodward brought up the same thing yesterday:)

What they do with PSG is going to be interesting as it is a complete farce.
City is also not far behind and monaco is a joke and can't see how they can stay within the guidelines. Chelsea is not too far off and the recent sales will buy them a little bit of room but not as much as they would like.

Carrick and Fletcher will be on one-year rolling contracts. Valencia and Cleverley will probably get new deals and neither are greedy so negotiations will be simple. Rooney is the only one to be concerned about.

Sydney

Carrick just signed a 2 year extension.

Apologies GCU - Carrick did sign a new two year deal so that's him out of the equation. I think Valencia and Cleverley just love Manchester United and want to stay for as long as they can so they will probably accept a new deal quite happily. As Sydney says, Rooney is the big question mark.

If he has, it hasn't been updated on his player profile. I do recall reading about it though.

Syd

Carrick even talked about it on one of his interviews on the clubs website and was quite happy that it has been sorted out.

13 Feb 2014 21:19:55
Carricks contract runs to june 2015 with an option for a 1 yr extension

Ajs71, that seems right.

I think next year will be carricks last, with fletcher retiring the year after that. but this shouldn't be a problem as I can see us bringing in 2 midfielders this summer and youth like powell being brought into the fold. valencias ability to cover rb alone may see him get a new contract. but a lot depends on what happens with rooney, is he really worth the reported 300,000 a week? imo no,

13 Feb 2014 14:30:02
Garay, Mangala, Varane, Subotic, Verthongen, Benatia and Caceres are the most linked centre backs at the moment. I think that we will sign one from this list but who? And who is best suited both for the EPL and for us?

Varane.

Mangala and subotic have the physicality to replace vidic but I think jones is earmarked for that, which ever cb comes in will have to have experience so I would guess garay, I think he has prob been told already that we will go for him in the summer when rio and vidic leave. jones, smalling and evans along with garay are good enough to take us forward with keane either as back up or being loaned for more experience.
lb is the main concern imo, I think we should go for rodrigues at wolfsberg or willems at psv, both young, good going forward with rogrigues being better defensively
at rb I don't get why rafael is under pressure, he's still young and is mostly consistent, if we were to get back up then would opt for davide santon as he can cover both flanks and has epl experience

dags

Varane or Subotic. Subotic would be a the perfect replacement for Rio as he would offer the height and is a very dominating centre back!

Mangala too expensive we wouldn't pay that for cb, spuds wouldn't sell vertonghen to us unless for silly money and why would madrid sell us varane?.if hummels gets sold dortmund won't let subotic go, so it looks like garay if he's still availible or moyes goes for something he knows and looks at getting jagelka, hopefully not.

Varane is a magnificent central defender who is playing regularly at the world's biggest club, or at least the most desired.

Verthongen will not be sold, much less to a rival top 4 contender ( it really hurts saying that ).

Mangala costs too much, and he is honestly not worth it.

Benatia just moved to Roma, who are doing brilliantly atm, and will not be too happy to lose 2 of their best players this summer ( Pjanic, Strootman and Benatia are all potential departures for bigger teams ).

Semih Kaya has yet to be mentioned, and he is every bit as talented as Mangala. For those who do not know him, he plays for Galatasaray, and not only does he look like Vidic with his hard features and scary sociopathic stare, he also has a very, very similar playing style, except he is faster and not as imposing aerially.

Ed002, have we actually shown any interest in kaya or is it all media bullocks?

Outside chance I know but I wouldn't rule out vermaelen at arsenal, only played like 4 games this season, has experience and the rvp signing shows they are willing to deal with us, so could happen, not saying it will, but he's not a bad player

dags

13 Feb 2014 13:37:59
So I think it is fairly safe to say last night was a decent performance and Moyes got his tactics spot on for a game in which a 0-0 draw was perfect and a snatched 1-0 win would have been fantastic.

Unfortunately a 0-0 draw was not perfect, we have lost the right this season to take 1 point away from home by losing too many points at Old Trafford and we should have been going all out for a win.

I do not think this season is a write off just yet, we have the Champions League to go for where a good draw could see us get to the semi final and then who knows what will happen, and this could send us on a nice little run in the league where we could at least put some pressure on Liverpool / Arsenal / Spurs for 4th place and go into next season on the back of a good finish with new players added in the summer for a good season next season.

We have now played the top 5 away from home so in theory every league game should now be winnable. The lack of confidence is apparent and I think a couple of good wins could boost that. Confident players are often lucky players.

Sorry for being positive I appreciate that isn't really warranted on this site, and I do like to keep a fairly balanced approach even if I am upset by the way the team is playing at the moment.

Too many mistakes by Moyes in his first season for me but he will be given time to get it right, whether you agree with that or not. If we do end up getting rid of him at least we will have some top players signed up and have got rid of a lot of the deadwood if a new manager takes over.

Theoretically every game is winnable but i'm afraid not for this team with moyes in charge, I would think another two defeats at last this season so forget top four finish

13 Feb 2014 12:42:47
So far Moyes has spent 70m on Fellaini and Mata. It's still far too early to judge them, but what I do have a patent difficulty with is where exactly, and in what roles, he intends to use them.

Even if he is given time to get all the players he needs, it doesn't answer this question. Let's say that he brings in two central midfielders (which we clearly need) plus a winger or two and another strike - where and how do Fellaini and Mata fit in?

The only possible reason I can think of is that they were bought as ultimate replacements for Carrick and Rooney respectively. If so, then are both imminently about to retire and/or leave? If not, then it begs the question as to why he is giving preference to signing replacements for these two rather than addressing our more pressing needs in midfield and defence.

They have not been bought as replacements, Fellaini possibly has long term but Mata and Rooney will play in the same team.

Fresh!

The way I see it there are only 3 possible ways to accommodate both Rooney and Mata.

1) Play Rooney up top with Mata in the hole behind him

2) Break from the presently rigid formation of 2 wingers and play Rooney, Mata and Januzaj/Kagawa behind RVP

3) Play Mata out wide where he less effective

1) and 2) would make sense, but if 3) then he may just go the same way as Kagawa. Just saying that I think buying Fellaini and Mata should noy have been first priority.

13 Feb 2014 11:00:39
"Is blooding youngsters leaving Januzaj on the bench?" = Red Man

I'm not a big fan of Moyse and some of his decisions have been very questionable but FFS he just can't do right fordoing wrong for some people.

The lad is a huge talent but still a teenager in his debut season with a still developing physique so needs to be handled with care. He's had loads of game time particularly when RvP and Rooney were missing. Over playing him at this stage of his career could end up ruining his long term future particularly when there are more experienced fully developed, if not as good, alternatives fit and available.

Give the kid a chance of experience and development but don't knacker him by over playing him because fans believe he's a "star".

Moyes is handling Januzaj perfectly. Januzaj has had to play more than he should have at this stage.

We need to remember how overplaying some players in their teens in the EPL has cost them in the long term.

As I just posted lower it is not about burning him out but if he is left on the bench for big games and doesn't play with Mata what will he think? We need to select his games I agree but why not play him in the big games? If he only comes on and replaces Mata I really don't want him to think his way will be blocked.
I am going out for the evening now but I just want to see someone who has such talent given a start in big games and the concern is we tactically can't fit Mata and him in the team.

@Red Man

I would love to see Januzaj start every game, but fact is he has played a lot this season.

I think to go tactically further we need to sacrifice Rooney, play with Mata behind RVP, Januzaj on the left or right with another winger like Reus.

Play the boy.It didn't hurt Ronaldo.

Adnan has had to play a lot and we've relied on him. He will benefit from a spell on the bench. IMO it's nothing to do with fitness, physique or burn out, and more to do with keeping his feet on the ground and making sure he knows to keep working and improving to really fulfill his potential. I firmly believe he'll be one of the top players in world football in a few years if he applies himself.

@Patzi

That is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it.

Ronaldo made 40 appearances in his first season at United, having already played first team football before at Sporting.

This is Januzaj's first year of competitive football at the top level and he has made 24 appearances already, and I am pretty sure by the end of the season he will have made nearabout the same appearances as Ronaldo did in his first season.

Actually I think Moyes has shown incredible confidence in him. This is Moyes' first year in this huge job and he has been bold enough to put faith in an 18 year old academy graduate.

What about other like Owen who were burned out later on in their career?

We REALLY should stop linking everything to Moyes. He has done some good as well and the management of Januzaj is one of them.

He replaced Mata, because Mata wasn't tracking back enough all night to help out Evra. Arsenal were overpowering us down the left time and time again.

Adnan came on and tracked back willingly.

Mind you, I had the advantage of watching the game, before feeling able to post about it.

I know this is a boring explanation, compared to the wide-eyed, half-baked conspiracy theory put out there, but there you go.

When we have a left back that doesn't constantly need covering, then the two will play together.

I also believe Adnan started against Chelsea, who are quite a big club.

StevieK

Interesting point as to why Mata was substituted, not tracking back, but is that not one of the reasons Mourinho sold him? If so why were we expecting something different?

Red Man, I think long-term, Mata won't have to play on the wing, so he won't have to track back to help out his full back.

I'm hoping so anyway, or it would be such a waste.

13 Feb 2014 10:07:47
Mourinho gets a 0-0 at the Emirates; 'Genius tactical display.'

Moyes gets 0-0 at the Emirates; 'Boring Moyes. Playing survival football.'

Again just sums up the Media.

Monday - Neil custis exclusive. ''Rio not heading to Dubai as he and Moyes have fallen out, Rio is retiring''.

Thursday - Rio heading to Dubai after a great display eases uniteds worries. He may have a big part to play!?

Gotta laugh. But just confirms the Media want united to fail, and will write anything and everything that might, just might, make united fans question the club.

BBC news this morning going on about the match. " BOTH teams were booed off the pitch"
WTF! They can actually tell now who is being booed? Crass reporting.

I know it is quite onesided. Mourinho comes to OT and plays 5 midfielders and no recognized striker and admits he did not want to lose and they eat it up including some here.

We actually had 2 top strikers on the pitch and I never thought we were defensive but more about not allowing arsenal to play in parts of the pitch that they like, which meant rooney had to help and played and looked like a 451 when defending.

Good management and good tactic if you ask me.

Mourinho & Chelsea didn't have to win, Moyes & United did.

In what capacity are we saying utd had to win. beacuse the fans said so. because we want to chase the elusive champions league that we all know we won't be getting or because as Utd we are expected to?

At what point does realism strike us that this season has been a mess and that with every beating Moyes is thrown further in to the lions den.

He has to build for the future and that starts with the next game. getting a point at Arsenal would be accepted in every other season. Even fergie was beat several times there. We ask the team to show they are gelling, whch they are slowly doing and its still not enough for some?

Like I have said before and will again, matching the big teams in the big games is what we expect as fans. But as fans we understand that things aren't quite right. I'll keep going every season with or without Moyes and understand that we no longer have the right to win things. Will you?

I'm away in another time zone so haven't seen the match, but I dispute we had to win. 4th place is gone and after Fulham a win would've restored some confidence but a loss would've hit the confidence harder.

How can anybody dispute that we had to win? Talk that 4th spot is gone? We're Manchester United, nothing is gone until it's mathematically impossible and even if it were gone, we should be going out to win every game. What is going on, on these pages?

StevenC - 'Mourinho and Chelsea didn't have to win'.

Using what rationale?

They're a team with designs on winning the league. Why did they not have to win, and we did, with our slim to outside chance of getting top 4?

TK-Red, I think we did have the intent of winning the game.

We all know Arsenal are always going to control the game at home, and that it will rely on maybe a single good chance on the break, or from a set-piece to get the points.

Fergie had many dirty, scrappy, smash and grab wins against them, and if RVP had been sharper, then last night could have been another one.

It's not like we just sat back and defended for 90 minutes.

Tk-Red

Mathematically being still in it is a novel idea. The reality is we have put ourselves and everything is being scrutinized by the media and our fans and have very little room to wiggle.

Sometimes you don't win the battle on that day but win the war eventually.

The losses have really dented everyone confidence and last thing we needed yesterday was gong to Arsenal and losing another one.

If we played a wide open game we would potentially get embarrassed, because they have a lot of pace, which is our achilles heel.

It would have been called tactically naive and people would have had a field day with us. I assure you there are many including some of our own who are disappointed we did not lose because it would have been open hunting season today.

We need to get out of the spot light and win a few quietly. I am expecting a lot of fire works and verbal/mental games involving the top 4 or 5 and squeaky bum time and see what happens.

13 Feb 2014 09:21:30
Lads posting that Vidic was immense last night?
Did I miss something. in the first few minutes Wilshire waltzed past him like he wasn't there and from the resulting corner he completely lost Giroud something that happened all night long.

I think lads commenting must not have actually seen the game but instead seen the result and automatically think oh Vida must have had a great game. Sad to see a once great warrior starting to lose it his pace is gone and he just can't get his body into positions where he wants to be.

Now someone who was immense was DDG save after save he looked assured and his distribution is rock solid as ever. Quality keeper and delighted to hear a new contract is on the cards.

Giroud beat to the ball all night and should of scored really

The problem with defenders is no matter how much good work they do, their errors stand out. For the most part of the game Vidic was a wall and attacked every ball, making numerous clearances but he lost a couple of duels and he's had a bad game.

When a forward makes a mistake and still scores a couple of goals, he's been fantastic. When a winger mirubbishs 10 crosses and then gets a decent one resulting in a goal, he's had a good game.

On another note, Smalling was an absolute beast yesterday

Have to agree on both Smalling and Vidic. I hope when Evans and Jones are fit that Moyes drops Vidic and only uses him if 1 of the 3 I've just mentioned are injured as I've noticed this season our best games have been with Smalling and Evans as our pairing and we have lost the majority of our games when Vidic has played. He has been a great servant for us but he's announced he's leaving and I think its vital we get some continuity in the centre back position so don't feel he should be 1st choice anymore. We definitely need a new CB signed and promote young Michael Keane. Rio looked good yday but he will be leaving aswell by looks of it. The whole of our defence is very injury prone or leaving so perhaps we need quite a few players there

Mick

Where did I say he had a bad game?

Fact of the matter is he was not immense or anything close to it like some are saying.

Like most defenders, if Smalling gets a run at the back, he will improve and become more consistent.

I think with Vidic, especially against the top teams, it's quite clear to see that the spirit is still willing, but the body is weak.

13 Feb 2014 08:13:08
DDG was excellent yesterday, he's been in and out this season for me, but yesterday he was absolutely top draw for the whole of the game.

Vidic was had on toast all night, he lost his man time and again for corners and crosses, and if Giroud was in any form he'd have scored three.

RVP is out of touch, but he needs game time to get himself back. His record for us is nothing short of phenominal.

Cleverly had a good game, he and Carrick played against Arsenals revered midfield and matched up well.

What do we need?
New left back
New right back - unless raf returns to form.
New centreback to help bring on Smalling, Jones, Evans, Keane
Midfield energy & drive - Vidal!
Midfield guile - Kroos, Gundigan, Herrera, Koke, Powell?

So no change then! Stand out for me yesterday was the passion showed by the team, they all wanted to fight for their team, and no one hid. Need to keep that spirit for the rest of the season, and trust that some of these other teams will fall away.

13 Feb 2014 02:38:26
A point is usually a decent outcome from an away game at Arsenal. Yesterday I posted I felt Arsenal were brittle at this time of year, not unbeatable and would be under pressure, so here is a question, did we again miss a chance?
I would ask if we had already given up on top four and felt a point was enough? Given where I am in the world I couldn't watch the game but did we really push hard towards the end to get the win, did we want it more urgently than them? That was always something apparent in SAF teams? Open question.

Januzaj didn't start, then when we could still have won Mata was replaced by Adnan not complemented with him. Could we have taken a chance and if we genuinely still felt a top four place was available, played them both at the end and gone for the win? Or have we given up on top four and surrendered it? What does this mean for Januzaj going forward, is he being "protected" or can he not be accommodated with Mata in the same team? Does that mean someone sees them in a similar role? That would be very concerning.

We earned a point, however the Scousers and Spurs gained two more on us and the question I have, especially highlighted by the Januzaj Mata substitution, is did we really go for it or did we just not want to lose?

It sumed the performance up in injury time when we stole the ball in the centre circle(carrick I think?)and had acres of space to burst forward, however if I remember correctly both RVP and rooney drifted wide and no-one else burst forward in support because if they had arsenal were there for the taking, in the end the ball ended going back into the defence and to be fair, moyes looked pretty annoyed.

We didn't fight for it in the end. Both teams looked like they were happy with a draw tactically.

Mata played in exactly the same way Kagawa has since he signed, completely wasted stuck out on the left flank, looks like a major waste of money and a position if we are going to stick him out there, so annoying that we can't change our system.

Oezil was the same for Arsenall though.

In truth we looked shattered, RVP missed a couple of sitters for him and Rooney looked a yard slower again. Carrick couldn't stop giving the ball away and looks like he should be playing table football and our full backs looked exhausted (Rafael & Evra). Smalling had one of the best games he has had for us and Vidic did well. The rest were 5/10 performances, Cleverly maybe a 6.

I would suggest at least watching the game, even on re-run, before posting in future.

You would have seen that we did have chances for a typical, smash and grab win, but that with Arsenal typically controlling the game, we were never really in a position to, 'go for it'. On another day, RVP could have had a hat-trick, but De Gea was also probably our best player.

Mata wasn't tracking back enough to help out with Evra, so we were always at risk of getting caught, never looking totally comfortable. That was also why he was substituted for Adnan by the way, who showed much more willingness to get back, at a time when Evra was being carved apart. Boring, I know, compared to your fairy tale conspiracy theory, full of 'if's', 'could's' and perhap's' - sorry to disappoint you.

If we had went for it, and got caught, then the same names would have been on here saying, why was he so tactically naive, why did he just not see it out.

You should have just stopped after your first sentence. A point WAS a good result, considering where both teams are right now.

You say Arsenal are notoriously brittle right now, and gave other reasons why you thought a win was possible. I would suggest your expectations were possible deliberately unrealistic, so as to make a draw look like a bad result, when most fans would probably have gladly taken that result pre-match.

You're going on an assumption from previous seasons, though I would suggest, in their annual fight for the last ECL place, that they are strong enough when it matters.

No matter. It has no bearing on where they are right now. They are a team going for the league, whilst our problems are well documented.

StevieK

So grateful for your incessant intense policing of the site and telling me when I can or cannot post

I didn't pretend to watch the game and clearly asked an open question for opinions. Actually I sat up with a running commentary until 5am and they were nowhere near as favourable as you are about our performance, but why would that surprise me.

I felt we could get a win before the game and gave reasons but it sounds like we, like you accepted the draw and better not to have lost another game.

Who said anything about us playing well? I think I described it as a typical dirty, scrappy performance, which we could have won, but also that Dr Gea was probably our best player. Doesn't sound like I was bigging it up.

I just think it would be helpful to watch a game before commenting on it, as in this case your theory about the Mata/Adnan substitute, was a bit wide of the mark.