Manchester United Banter Archive February 14 2014

 

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14 Feb 2014 21:21:58
As per the article Ed04 linked to regarding "crossing".

The cross is for the most part just an easily defended inaccurate pass. It also tends to concede possession, in particular when the defense is slow or too deep. The challenge is to create space, which in turn requires movement, speed, teamwork, tactical awareness, vision and a great first touch. It matters not from whence the killer pass comes, as long as it reaches a player in scoring position. The greater the perceived options for the attacking team, the harder it will be for the defence to cheat by committing to limited areas of threat.

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14 Feb 2014 22:35:20
So city are increasing their seating capacity? I'd imagine those extra seats will be bought up by a third party. Mind you, they're not exactly full of second parties as it is.

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14 Feb 2014 19:57:24
Roughly a month ago, RVP openly in the media declared his support for DM. This is purely speculation and an attempt at intelligent journalism linking the idea of Wenger needing another striker and Utds difficult season.
Unless the Eds know otherwise?

KingGiggsy

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A moment ago I replied to a post on the rumours forum saying that I'd be happy to see RVP replaced by a faster and fitter striker - but it's worth pointing out that Arsenal fans now despise RVP. I can see him leaving - but not returning to Arsenal.

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Fans are fickle as seen on here! They would easily forgive him if he went back and did what he did for us last season.

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14 Feb 2014 20:56:12
Looks like our youth team plays exactly the same as our first team and unfortunately get the same results.

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MU didn't play well tonight. Huddersfield played well.

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I also watched the game. Plenty of problems with our defending, and we were not really creative, and had to attack down the right and wait for individual pieces of magic.

I honestly think it's understandable though, while on paper it's probably our best side, it seemed like some players are unfamiliar with each other. Too many players made the step up to the U21s this season, including some ( like Perreira ) who's trying to bounce the 2. The lack of team chemistry is therefore understandable.

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14 Feb 2014 20:21:22
Anyone else catch us beating Leeds in 2001 on Sky this morning? We are 4-1 up and G Neville gives the ball away. Roy Keane gives him the mother of all boll#ckings.
Name one present day Utd player who would dish that out?

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Cleverley seems to put his hands in the air, and move them around like he just doesn't care.

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Mick, I thought that post deserved much more acclaim. Every time I see him doing that now, I'll be singing to myself and chuckling.

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Mick, I will to. Chortle chortle

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14 Feb 2014 19:43:58
So Fulham have sacked Rene and hired Magath.

Could we perhaps swallow our pride and ask him back as a coach/in an advisory capacity? Or would that show weakness?

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He was asked to stay anyway but chose not to. Lots of good coaches see management as a natural progression. For some it pays off, others it doesn't. Rene joined a sinking ship in Fulham but I am sure he will be a successful manager. In the meantime, it would be great to have him back though.

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Let's get something straight, Rene was offered a role and turned it down. I would love him back but people saying moyes would have to swallow his pride are wrong, it would be Rene who would have to admit he's better as a coach than a manager.

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Gds2
Rene says he wasn't, who's telling the truth?

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Moyes apparently offered him a job that was effectively a massive demotion.

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I'm sure Rene said recently that he was asked to stay, but he declined the offer. It was a tv interview too, not something made up by the press. Straight from the horses mouth.

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Yes but the job offer could have been flipping burgers in Red Cafe for all we know! ;)

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Apparently he was offered a job within the academy not with the 1st team

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I feel for the guy. Both Anzhi and Fulham have screwed him over. As much as I'd love to see him return to the club I do not see it happening. Both he and we have far too much pride.

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14 Feb 2014 19:35:45
Rene just been sacked by Fulham, if Moyes wanted a quick lift for the players he should ask rene back quickly, I don't think he is enough of a man to admit he made a mistake.

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Moyes asked him to stay, Rene decided to move on

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14 Feb 2014 19:34:44
I for one am hoping Rene comes back to us nows he's been sacked, get someone next to Moyes in the dugout that has the slightest idea

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It's never going to happen. I cannot believe he's been sacked.

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I can see him coming back. I doubt he would want to go back into management any-time soon.

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14 Feb 2014 19:32:23
Just heard Fulham have sacked Meulensteen, Anyone else want him back at United? It might help put some stability back in the team.

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Ask him to pick up Queiroz as well on his way back, the more the merrier :)

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14 Feb 2014 18:52:25
Man City have gained permission to increase their capacity to 62000.
As Arsenal were known as the Invincibles, do Man City want to be known as the invisibles?
At many of their games there are masses of empty seats. Or are they invisible fans? Maybe it, s for concerts and other events.

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I wouldn't get too casual about it, Robbie.

A successful team can easily take hold of a new generation of kids.

When I was a kid, Liverpool shirts outnumbered our Utd shirts, by about 2-1. Through our great years in the 90s and 00s, you hardly saw a young boy in a Liverpool top over here.

Now I see young lads at my son's football academy with City shirts on.

There was never anyone in City shirts, growing up.

If the success continues, the fans will come.

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It's for show as you said they can't even fill it now it's just too make them look bigger and impress people

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The more successful city become the more day trippers and glory hunters will want tickets, don't underestimate there growth in world football, they have an owner with the money and the will to push them into the worlds elite.they give schools tickets for kids at silly prices but are snaring the next generation of fans.if you live in manchester you would definately more kids and teenagers wearing city colours than a few years back

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Like many have said they can't fill it now but why wait till they get to that stage where its full then do it if its possible now, maybe if we had the same attitude with our midfield we wuddent be in the position we are

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Excellent news for the city of Manchester. Should create some jobs and keep the development moving in a part of the city which can do with all the investment it can get.

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Also, begs the question, why aren't Utd increasing capacity to 100,000?

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Can we? I really don't know.

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14 Feb 2014 18:48:07
Is Sydney about? Pop over to the other reds page that you used to post on, a lot. You are getting slated for not making any appearances lately. On to your team now, give Moyes time. He is a good manager and will get it right in time. Let him build his own side. May have to forego a couple of seasons without any glory. We, Liverpool, have gone through what you are going through but we didn't do the right things at the right time and started chasing glory with managers after managers. It has left us without a title for so many years. Give him time and support your team or you may end up like us. Anyways, good luck for the rest of the season, apart from when you host us. Sydney, don't forget. 30 points clear?

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Liverpool have done well this season, credit where it's due. I didn't think they would do this well and I thought MU would handle the manager change better. It's exciting though, we cannot be on top every season. We will return to the top one day and I will enjoy the ride in the meantime.

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Well said, Syd. I too am a bit surprised at how well Liverpool have done this season, so credit where it is due.

I don't think we will be able to catch them now. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they won the league this season, given the fact that the teams they are chasing all have tough CL games coming up; plus they have to play City and Chelsea at Anfield.

I too am quite excited by the thought of a new team being developed under Moyes'. With the right signings to add to the quality we already have at the club, it won't be long before we're challenging for league titles again.

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Well said syd nice to see some respect between Liverpool and Manchester United fans. I know our clubs have a fierce rivalry but they are very similar indeed and fans should be able to have friendly banter as we do on the lfc page with a few other fans from rival clubs so would be nice Untd and Liverpool fans did the same.

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Sam, I think Liverpool will get top four although I hope Spurs will snatch it away from them. It will be interesting to see if Liverpool handle the pressure when it gets closer to the end. Liverpool haven't had the hindrance of European football and they have had the pleasure of consistency, whilst other clubs have had a change in manager. I think that's why Liverpool and Arsenal have done better than expected this season. I still expect City to win the league and I expect Arsenal to fall like they do. Us MU fans have to get used to the idea of us being in a transition for a couple of years. I have made peace with the idea although it's hard to watch.

I think we will come back stronger next season. One thing I will say is Moyes is looking to sign the right players therefore if he does end up getting the sack, the new manager will inherit a good bunch. Clubs the size of MU with the income that MU have and the quality of academy we have do not wither away. We will be having a rebuild over the next 18 months and we will be in transition so we are going to have to get used to watching City dominate for a year or two, but we will be back and we will be successful again, I think patience will be needed by fans and I think there will be more disappointment, but like I said we will rise again and we will look back at this time and become stronger for it.

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Syd the race for top 4 and 3rd spots is not over, we have to play you at old trafford and nobody is sure of any points in this league and I for one would call utd down but by no means out of the race for either of them spots. you would need to win most of your games but I've seen your club do the buisness before under a different manager fair enough but utd will always be a threat

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MU will not improve in time to put a winning run of games together. The slump has lasted too long now.

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Once rvp and Rooney get match sharp I think we will start winning games but I don't see other teams dropping enough points

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Everyone is dropping pts and will continue to imo and moyes luck will have to change. rio is back with vidic and imo utd are still in the race for top 4. its all to play for.

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You'd be foolish to count Everton out of the equation guys. Like the RS no European distractions and players starting to come back from injury in what was a horrendous January for a club with a small squad.

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Any team in the 2nd to 7th spots can change around I think although I think chelsea or city will get top spot. everton are for sure in the mix and have played great football all season.

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14 Feb 2014 17:32:55
I have a few questions for the regular posters, was interested to see what you lot thought as well as the eds.

1) if moyes were to be sacked in the summer, IF, who would be in your top 3 as replacements?
2) if you could pick two centre midfielders to improve united next season, who would you pick?
3) who would be your top 3 youngsters to introduce to our starting line up for the remainder of the season if at all?

If it were me I'd say:
1) Klopp, Guardiola (I know, a LONG shot), Simeone
2) Vidal and Gundogan
3) Lingard, Varela and Michael Keane

What do the rest of you think? I'm sure there are fans who would disagree greatly but I just fancied a discussion! :)

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1. Heynckes, Klopp and (now for some controversy) Benitez!
2. Vidal and Koke
3. Lingard, Powell and Vermijl

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1. Klopp, Ancelotti, Solksjaer (five years).
2. Vidal and Fabregas
3. None will get a game. But will look forward to seeing Wilson, Pearson & Powell in preseason.

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{Ed004's Note - I agree with most of what Syd said though possibly Conte/De Boer/Blanc ahead of Solksjaer. Also Vidal main target though would be happy with Gundogan, Fabregas, Kroos, or Koke. Also on the debate about our tactics below read this http://livelifeunited.com/modern-tactics-manchester-united/ I honestly think one of Rooney or RVP must be sold or dropped (RVP is better therefore Rooney gone, though if RVP is unhappy he can go). We would still need two cm's and a winger but Mata and Kagawa would be able to link up well IMO}

1)Blanc, Guardiola and Hiddink
2)Herrera and Kroos
3)Lingard, Powell and Micheal Keane

Strictly speculative as DM will NOT be sacked in the summer.

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Mine would be:

Heynckes, guardiolla and Martinez

Fabregas and Vidal

Powell, lingard and keane (defender)

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1. Guardiola, Klopp, Ancelotti
2. Vidal. Javi Martinez
3. Powell, Wilson, Varela

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1- Klopp, Solkjaer, Pochetino.

2-Kroos, Witsel

3-Rothwell, Petrucci and Keane.

1- I chose the managers based on potential availability, philosophy and overall potential. All of them have unlimited potential, with Solskjaer the least proven, but he's getting there.

2- Again, we need to be realistic with our chances. Kroos is looking for a way out, and despite him being in the last year of his contract, plenty of teams will be in for him with a bucket load of cash. The most likely out of all the world class midfielders we're being linked to ( still chance is next to nothing)

Witsel is looking for a way out of Russia and has already identified us as one of the big teams in an interview, along with Chelsea and the spanish 2.

Herrera and Rakitic are other top class options ( despite an obvious gap in quality between them and the Vidals and Kroos' of the world )

3- For the youngsters, it's a bit tough to predict. Our most promising one is on loan, so is the one most ready for a team place ( Powell and Vermijl respectively ).

Rothwell offers everything we're looking for. He's a bit like Gerrard, covering every inch of the pitch and very technically gifted. I rate him higher than Pearson ( who might be a wee bit more talented ).

Petrucci is the best player we have in the lower levels, including Powell. He's just head, neck and shoulders above everyone at that level and should either be slowly introduced in the team or sent out on loan.

Keane has been done to death.

Varela, Janko, Pearson and Pereira are other talented individuals who might make it in the long term.

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I totally agree with Powell. I forgot about him completely to be honest. Nice to see the difference of opinion though. Also yeah fabregas would be good because he could link up well with mata I reckon. Solsjkaer as well I mentioned a while back as a potential long term manager in the future, some good responses here thanks people!

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1) Klopp. If not him Mourinho or Pep.

2) Vidal, Gundogan

3) Powell, Keane, Lingard

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Matt Busby, Ferguson,
Roy Keane, Bryan Robson
Beckham, Scoles and Giggs

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14 Feb 2014 16:37:32
With Rafael being injured and in and out of the team there is a chance of him being sold in summer.

What do people think of Valencia at RB. I know his performances there have been far from convincing but he has the Physique and Pace required for that position.

Only thing he lacks is positioning which can be achieved by practice and training.

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Valencia isn't good enough to be a first choice RB. I think Rafael is questionable at best. Also Moyes apparently sees Rafael as unreliable, no arguments there.

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If he was 3 years younger I'd be all for it, but sadly I think he's a lost cause

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Nomidield can't post tonight, but he called me to put forward his three choices:

Klopp. Klopp Jr. Mrs Klopp.

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14 Feb 2014 16:27:00
With all the talk of bringing in a new CB, are people forgetting Johnny Evans? Imo, he's earned his place.

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Evans should be no more than quality back-up.

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Evans + A.N.Other. Every time.

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Evans is our best defender, no doubt about that.

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Sydney I think that is very harsh towards our best defender from the past 2-3 seasons. We have always been better when he has a more experienced head next to him but it has been Evans + 1 in my opinion for a long time. Although I feel that Jones and Smalling will eventually be better than what Evans currently is, I feel we should be looking at a partner for him with Jones Smalling as backup right now.

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Evans isn't ever going to be the main man he is prone to some awful defending and injury prone

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Pardoe, a bit harsh, but comments that could apply to all our defenders, not just Evans.

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14 Feb 2014 15:31:11
Hi Guys

Interesting timing for Fabregas to come out and say he was flattered by our interest in him during the summer.Is that his way of saying he would welcome an approach by us in the summer.
I personally would like to see us sign Cavanni even if I think its unlikely.
Not United related but I love the way Mourinho and Wenger are bitching each other.

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LOL I just read what they have said. I posted last night believing the mental/verbal games was about to start soon but did not expect his sort of salvo.

Expect to see him trying to drag city, Liverpool and spurs in to it as well. I see suarez has mouted off again so that should get the scourers some good press.

I hope they all have a massive food fight and start dropping points in bunches :))!

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Is Fabregas after a payrise or something? We should charge commission on the pay increases players get when they're mentioned in the same breath as United!

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Lets also see that he said Cleverley and Welbeck have got talent so his comments about being flattered by the interest we showed may also be a lie

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Im loving the JM and AW spats atm hilarious, as far as Fabregas goes he would be my absolute first choice buy a truly great player.

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14 Feb 2014 14:28:46
Superb piece in a newspaper today by Ian Wright. A United player that never was if ever there was one, his analysis of how the Arsenal v United game is now a very poor meal compared to what was served up during the late 90's was a great read.

Wednesday night was a shockingly bad game void of skill, passion and the remotest possibility of anybody leaving the pitch having metaphorically spilt blood for their team. End to end boredom, and now no-longer the flagship fixture of the season. Sadly Man City v Chelsea now owns that badge.

Its a damming indictment of the summing-down of football in general, and to some extent how the quality of both sides is now a shadow of their former selves.

Does anybody believe that any highlights from recent matches would warrant entry in to a Keane v Viera remake? Mmm. I can see it in 10-years from now, Cleverley v Willshire.

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14 Feb 2014 14:27:08
I've been reading so many posts here about how to change our formation and you all seem to know a lot about these things. So I would like to know from you guys that what is the difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-1-1 and 4-4-2.

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4-4-2 plays wide with two strikers up top, for example if we played with RVP and Hernandez up top they would be supported by two wide men and two men in the centre of the pitch.
Not much flair or attacking style in this but I is a safe formation as it provides decent attacks and sturdy defense.

4-4-1-1 just like before, two lines of four, with one playing behind the striker in order to link play between the midfield and attack, In my opinion it leaves the front man very isolated and unless he is very capable in holding the ball up and the team are willing to support this formation will be mostly ineffective when attacking.

4-2-3-1 plays two (usually sitting) midfielders who provide defensive cover and provide possession to the attacking four players, The three men behind the striker can play narrow or wide and the middle is usually occupied by a playmaker, (Rooney in our case althought i'd like to see mata or kagawa tried properly in that position).
The wide men in this formation can be altered to play narrower and allow the full backs to push on while they provide extra bodies for the opposition defense to worry about.

My preferred is the last of the three as I have said it enables attacking flair and a good defense providing players do what is necessary of them.

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Essentially, they are all 4-4-2 with managers own little spin on it. If we were to change the formation drastically, we'd go 3 at the back and that would really mean a change in personnel which we would never do.

4-2-3-1 supposedly would offer more protection, 6 defence and 4 attack. But you still have a player left, right and just behind the striker and then your 2 CM's. But the 3 have more freedom however they still must keep some shape for when possession is lost.

I find it strange that, more and more teams are opting for 4-2-3-1, but teams still stick with 4 at the back against the 1? Also, 4-2-3-1 is a shift away from out and out wingers, so are full backs essential? Why not 3-5-2 with wing backs?

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Ports
Some very good points

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Ports

Nice one.

The weirdest formation in world football is 3133, which is Bielsa's brain child. He tried to get Bilbao playing it last year and they were all over the place with it.

I also read somewhere that only one team in the Italian top flight plays 4 at the back at the moment. I am not sure if it is true because it sounds very odd.

I think as they say horses for courses and most of these things are driven by having the players needed to play them successfully or in our case buying the relevant players to shift.

I am surprised when people say they want attacking football and also talk about 4231 as the new way of football. As you correctly said it is a much more defensive set up and compact than our traditional 442 formation.

I personally prefer a 433 as the most attractive and balanced if you have the the right players.

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Wasn't 3-1-3-3 very popular with Dutch sides many years back?

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I think what your missing GCU is the 2 need to be box to box, creative and can tackle. Take Jones for instance the lad covers every blade of grass, is fast, can pass well, he falls down atm on the creativity. Vidal however is as he says the best CM. 2 very good CM's pushes the defence way up the pitch and is very attacking.

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442 is the standard 2 banks of 4 defensively with 2 up top.
424 is 442 with lazy wingers (on purpose or ny choice)
4411 is just 442 with a forward who likes to float around.
4231 is just the 424 equivalent of 4411 to 442.

Having watched us this season, I think we should play 4232.

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Wow I agree Ben let's play with 12 players.

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Grund you either don't get my wit or a similar sense of humour. I hope for your sake it's the latter.

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14 Feb 2014 13:51:46
Read a report a few days ago saying that we were the front runners to sign Eden Hazard two seasons ago but elected to go for Kagawa for almost half the price. Hazard wanted to come here and that is why he said 'I will play in Manchester' but when we pulled out he was left with Chelsea or City and he choose Chelsea. What a mistake this was by SAF if true, he will be a future Balon d'Or winner for me and would look brilliant down our left hand side as his style fits our philosophy perfectly. We now need to go out and get Lucas, Reus or Griezmann.

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Griezmann could be a good signing. He would fit the winger/forward position I am talking about.

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Fresh catch a grip, hazard chose chelsea over united some of yous really need to get over yourselves

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He may well end up in Manchester. For City most likely!

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Belfast, if you hadn't been the worst team to win the ECL since Liverpool, he wouldn't have been anywhere near you lot :)

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14 Feb 2014 12:12:08
Good afternoon all,
I have been avoiding posting for the last few weeks as my emotions and feelings are so up and down that I am finding it hard to be consistent in my opinions but there are some things at the moment I find unforgivable
1) vidic should only evey play for us again if there ae no other options that includes your M Keane, he has decided to walk away from our club so there is no way he should be leading our team out as captain. a great servant but if he is not committed then he can't be our leader
2) playing kagawa and now mata out of position is a waste of time. have some balls and do what everybody else can see and play only 1 of rooney and RVP up top. Rooney has not got the positional dicipline to play in the hole nor has he got the correct tech ability RVP is a class act so in my view he should be the one starting
3) don't play rooney at all until he signs a new deal he is either in or he is out. and until we get a decesion leave him on the sidelines he needs to go in the summer as for me he is a front man only and not as good as RVP or many other candidates

This is manchester united nobody is bigger than the club. Moyes is showing no leadership in this regard and he is not showing enogh balls to make big decisions that will provide short term pain and but by making these calls now we will have a stonger unit in the medium to long term.

Dump the has beens and the uncommitted and play kids if you have to with the likes of Raf/jones evans smalling mata januzaj, rvp carrick fellani.

Have some Balls Mr Moyes. we can't do anyworse with kids and fully committed players than we are doing by tring to cajole and entertain some of the non committed and poor performers.

I admire BR at liverpool for the way he has his footballing philosaphy and style and he has stuck to his guns. There is no way he is the best manager in the EPL at this point but he is consistent in his leadership not afraid to cut his losses on a player and make tough calls but Moyes is still pussey footing around players trying to be everybodies friend. that's not possible cut the players you don't want adrift and stand by your decisions and above all develop a style of play and stick with it its the only way we will get any consistency

Ken

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I stopped reading after your ridiculous Vidic comment.

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Spot on about Vidic and the rest of the post. Too many of the current team are just going through the motions because they know they will not be here next season. The so called transition needs to happen at a slower pace as we can't afford seven players at 20-40 million which is what we will have to pay. Trouble is very few of the squad seem to have faith in Moyes.

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I agree with JK92. What about drogba with Chelsea champion league final?

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HI Ken,

Superb post. Couldn't agree with you more. I fail to understand how Vidic can be captain. I appreciate the fact he WAS our biggest leader on the pitch. however leaders be definition DO NOT LEAVE!

Also, fail to see how his performance on the night was that amazing. Giroud gave him a real hard time and was unlucky not to get a penalty. But that's not suggest that Vidic prior to his injury was a warrior that made us all proud.

Let's be honest folks, if this was Rooney, the venom would be oozing!

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Peter Schmeichel was dreadful in his last season wasn't he? Imagine if we hadn't played him, Arsenal would have won the double. What a ridiculous comment.

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Not play Rooney until he signs? I can think of no better way to make sure he doesn't sign.

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I agree with Vidic on the captaining front but he should still play, yes he has said he is leaving during the summer but while he is still here should be utilized.

Rooney clearly wants the team to do well and is fighting to ensure they achieve a decent position in the league, I can only assume he will leave if a top four position is attained but it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

Agree with Mata and Kagawa that playing them out of position will only lead to tactically frailties and not getting the best out of players.

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14 Feb 2014 11:56:53
This summer, we already know, will see a big shake up at the club, possibly the biggest unforced change ever. Giggs, Evra Vidic and probably Rio (unless we help him get his coaching badges which I'd like to see but not as a player) all out of contract, retiring or leaving. Lindegaard, Nani, Anderson, Bebe, Macheda, with Kagawa and Chico all likely to leave if we can find clubs for them. 11 players likely to leave.

If we take Vidal as highly unlikely now(cry) we imho would need 5 signings, the rest should be made up from our youth. LB, CB, 2CM's and an attacking forward/mid who can score. With RM, apparently, having an agreement in place for Moreno, Coentrao would be available, not my first choice, a good solid LB. Garay, seems to want a move here, another excellent player. Herrera seemed open to a move here, and though he's recently said he's glad the move did not materialise what would you expect him to say? Again a very good player. Strootman, not the fastest on the planet, but great tackling box to box player with a huge engine also an excellent passer. These 2 would be a formidable pairing. Antoine Griezmann, great pace, goes past players for fun, very creative and scoring 14 goals from 21 starts in the Spanish league.

I have tried to pick players who I think we could get and apart from Garay, 27, the others are all young or just reaching their prime.

Lastly for those still saying we are playing 442, who is the other front man with RVP? let's all agree we play 4 at the back atm it stands out a mile that Cleverley, Fletcher Carrick and Jones are playing CM and we are picking 2 from these 4, last game it was Carrick and Cleverley. So that's 42 that only leaves 4 places. I admit we are not playing a traditional 4231 but unless you want to call it 451, I'll stick with a non conventional 4231.

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Grund, out of those 11 leaving, how many of them would be missed next season based on their talents alone or what they have achieved this season for us? IMO None of them. Vidic is not the player he once was and has to result in kicking the ball out for throw-ins now as he has little pace. Evra has been a tragedy defensively for years now and he hasn't offered much going forward this season. The rest haven't featured much and will not be missed. So with all those outgoings there will be room in the squad, cash for transfers and room on the wage bill. Now if we could bring in 4-5 new players, that is 4-5 new players that will add something next season and will improve us. Especially if they are 4-5 top quality signings which I suspect they will be. Then players like Carrick, Cleverley, Rafael, Valencia, Smalling will be the squad players, not the first teamers. The summer is shaping up well, I just hope we have no problem moving players on. That has been a major factor for why we are in this position today. If you cannot shift players, players cannot be signed. We need to let some players leave.

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Losing those players will simply trim the squad, I don't think that it will even weaken it as they don't play. I would be said to see Chicha and Kagawa leave but, whilst being good enough, don't fit what the manager wants and it is unfair to keep them him for the 1 game they play in a month. The 4 or 5 that we sign have to be good enough to make players like Valencia squad players, these players will in turn take the place of the squad players that we currently have.

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I don't disagree Syd, that's why I added, if we can find clubs for them. None of the 5 players I mentioned would be my personal first choice but I believe them all to be realistic and would leave us challenging for everything.

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Exactly Fresh, this will be a build that will happen over the next 18 months, but I think the brunt of it will happen this summer. What's important is the 4-5 players signed this summer should be top notch players. Two of them need to be worldies IMO. CM and a winger/forward. The fullbacks and CB need to be good players. Players like Coleman, Garay & Shaw for example. Add Powell, Zaha & Fellaini who has hardly featured and we won't look too bad. I would go for a winger/forward personally, although there's no evidence we are after this type of player. But with Nani, Kagawa and Hernandez all leaving, one top quality winger/forward could give us what we need.

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Grund, I missed out one of your paragraphs. Griezmann could be a very good signing. A player that can replace Young in the first team and replace Hernandez if we are short on strikers.

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14 Feb 2014 09:41:27
Just read an stat that since DM took over he has been in charge of 39 games and has picked 39 different team selections averaging just over 4 changes per selection.

I know injuries have not helped but that is a hell of a lot of changing around and gives no stability to the team. Also we all know he leaves announcing the team to the players til late so they have absolutely no idea who is in and who is out so how do they work on things in training?

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DD,

Have you got the stats on how many times Fergie played the same team 2 games running? It didn't seem to be too much of an issue then. Easy to pick up on every little thing but we have been unlucky with injuries so maybe he hasn't had the opportunity to pick the same team 2 weeks running?

Also, we have been pretty poor in most games, so maybe a lot of people wouldn't pick the same team the next week anyway?

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GDS2

we have played around with this squad with changes for a few years now almost every game.

It tells you something about the team IMO as not many players with the exception of few and some of those for the lack of options are being picked.

The rest is like well that did not work great so let's try something else.

I do believe we will go on a run after the break and win a bunch on the bounce and will make it very interesting. The scourers form at home is good but now they have chelsea and city and even spurs coming so not easy to call those games.

On the road they are like every one else and can lose to anyone.

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Injuries will be the reason for that. At Everton he liked a stable team and only made changes when necessary - to do that here I think that we need to slim down the squad because fewer players means less upset when they don't play. That's the Madrid and Barca way and I like it.

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I think that 1 problem has been those changes have always involved our CB's, for me, stability between your GK and 2 CB's is essential to build that solid platform on. Look at Koscielny and Mertesacker and Terry and Cahill. Moyes has not been blessed with the chance to get a consistent pairing this season at CB. Hopefully next season we will have that. *Please note I am suggesting this is the only problem we have this season but I do feel we would of got some better results had we maintained 2 consistent CB's.

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{Ed004's Note - I'm hoping come start of next season we have De Gea, Smalling and Mangala/Garay as a stable back line}

GDS

Why are you trying to make this a Moyes v Fergie thing. But seeing as you are then the reason it probably wasnt too much of an issue was because the team was picked early in the week and although the team was changed regularly everyone knew they were in and what job was expected of them come the matchday and could work on partnerships all week. Also even when Fergie was in charge we got plenty of injuries this isn't just a phenomenon that occurred since Moyes took over.

Your response just goes to show that when you post an innocent stat about not playing the same team two games in a row and making an average of 4 changes per team lads can't help but use the unlucky injury excuse for every single thing going wrong at our club.

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Surely next season we will see Jones replace Vidic? I would like to see Jones and Smalling as CB's until the summer. A good run of games to see how they develop.

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Ed004,

Yeah I agree. I'd choose Mangala ahead of Garay but 1 of those 2 will be great. Do you think it could be Garay and Mangala? Also, I would like to know your views on Smalling? The fact you have put him in a 2 with either of them suggests you rate him and I feel he could become good but worry about him on the ball, he's not that comfortable and his passing requires improvement. I appreciate he's still young though and I suppose he resembles Rio in his early years when he used to switch off.

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{Ed004's Note - I rate smalling highly. Ideally he would partner Mangala though Garay is more likely. Smalling for me over past 2 months has been one of, if not our best player. He is young and I have no doubt he will improve his distribution from the back. He dealt with Giroud without any difficulty while Vidic struggled IMO, he was easily our best player vs Sunderland. He is fantastic in the air, a very good tackler and extremely quick. Now he obviously needs to work on composure, his technical ability and positioning but usually defenders peak later as they get better with age and experience. I do worry about both Mangala and smalling being very young so they may struggle at first but there is a world class partnership for easily 5+ years there}

Gds let me help you understand this, it isn't that he hasn't played the same teams 2 games in a row its that he has played a different team in every game i.e 39 different teams, he hasn't selected the same team twice at all in 39 games, not bad eh.

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Smalling and Jones are both good players but haven't got enough experience between them, I would play one with a more experienced cb beside them.

A CB needs to be able to Marshall the back 4 and I don't think Jones and smalling do this well enough .

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Jones gobs off all game, I have no doubt that he would marshall a back four. We should be preparing for next season now and if Vidic is leaving anyway, then leave him out.

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Smalling is just too dopey to be a rock for us. He goes to sleep at the wrong moments couple that with his poor technical ability he is a mistake waiting to happen. Giroud had several good chances against our two centre halves, granted Vidic was meant to be marking him but by most accounts Vidic was a rock that game as well, hmm?!

Giroud could have had a hat-trick and he had very little support from his midfield on Wednesday. So Smalling and Vidic were not great. Smalling looked better at right back but that was only because Arsenal tucked in and he had a bit more time than usual. I can't see Smalling as our long term centre half, good cover but no way starting every week if we want to be a major team in Europe again. He played well on Wednesday probably his best game this season, but when you look at what he was up against and the opportunities their one striker had it isn't that reassuring.

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I get all the experience debate and I agree on some level, but our biggest problem at CB is the players cannot push up as they are too slow to get back into defence when we are caught on the counter. Jones and Smalling are quick and with them pushing up, that will push the midfield up to help the attacks, which will not leave our attack isolated like they have been in previous months. So the benefits of having quick CB's is it pushes up the midfield to support the attack, secondly it means we are not sitting so deep leaving a big hole between the defence and midfield. We still have an issue with the fullbacks and that is something that cannot be helped until we are able to buy in the summer. But for now I would try Jones and Smalling. It cannot hurt. I certainly agree with the experience thing, which is why the club are looking at experienced CB's. I just think it cannot hurt to try something new.

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RMG, I disagree, Smalling lacks composure, but our best defensive games this season has always been when he's playing. That's no coincidence. I would play him ahead of Evans every time. It's time for some consistency now and players only become consistent when they get a run of games. Evans improved after a long run of games, Smalling would be even better with a run of games.

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Midfield general,

Is that true? Well I never, that is some stat if it is true. If I misunderstood the original post that's fine but don't talk to me like I am a child, the OP didn't really say it like that.

DD,

You posted your opinion and I responded to it, you really don't need to be so defensive. I was unaware that Fergie picked a team early in the week and told the players to be honest, have you got any proof to back that up?

I was not using the 'unlucky injury excuse' I was saying that is probably the reason for all the changes, and the reason Fergie made all them changes as well. Not everything is the reason why we are doing badly, in my opinion changing the team each week is not one of the major issues at all, I am allowed to disagree with you mate.

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There is more to it than gobbing off, reading the game and marshalling a back 4 at the top level comes with experience and Jones hasn't played that many games at CB.

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Ed004,

Yeah that's a fair assessment, I felt when he came he had the potential to become a great CB and I suppose, taking into account where his development began and that he has played, I'd imagine more games then would of been expected of him since he joined, think it's 115 since 2010, then he is doing well.

1 more question Ed if you don't mind, how influential do you think International team mates are? I suppose I'm asking whether Evra, previous French captain would be an influence on Mangala choosing us? I know Mata mentioned De Gea was part of the reason he signed but in the whole does this tend to be irrelevant? I appreciate you can probably only speculate on this one!

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{Ed004's Note - It helps but it affects different players it may help some settle some might settle even if they knew no one at the club they're signing for}

Jones has been a CB since he was a child and has been coached by several different coaches at Blackburn, England and MU on how to be a CB. He will know exactly what to do and he will know exactly what others around him have to do. I really do not see him struggling to command the box. He's been doing it since a kid. And the only way to get experience is to play. Are Vidic and Evans that much better? Considering all of the goals we have leaked for two seasons now, I would say Evans isn't as good as some people like to think. Smalling and Jones for me. See how it goes and if it doesn't work then we should spend. We will have to spend anyway mind. 2-3 years ago pundits predicted Jones and Smalling to be lining up together in this summer's WC. I know injury has plagued that idea, but surely it's time to see what they can do now.

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Syd
Lol been coached since he was a kid .

Honest to God do you think it's that easy, every player has been coached since he was kid .
Have u played football.
It's not about commanding the box it's about controlling a back 4 understanding the way the game is going what top attacker's are going to do, reading the game and so much more .
There is only so much you can coach
You will be trying to argue cleverly is a good player next ;)

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Cleverley is a good squad player.

I think Jones is good enough to replace Vidic and I think he will do.

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Jones is good player I think he will turn out to be a very good player but the lad is only 21, he will continue to improve and learn .
A Jones smalling partnership could well work in the future but for a the moment would be far to inexperienced, both players are learning there trade.
Jones at this moment in time could probably learn more from playing with vidic than smalling imo .
CB is a difficult position to play as the reading of the game is no important and that only comes with experience.

Jones has only played a handful of games at cb and for me you can tell I would play either of them 2 with a more experienced cb.

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I do get your point and I agree with most of it, it would be foolish to stick Michael Keane and another player equally as inexperienced at the back in an EPL game. They would get murdered, but I think Jones and Smalling have played enough to be given a run of games together. When they have played together they have done well. When Jones has played CB he has been good. With Vidic and Ferdinand leaving this summer I would like to see Jones and Smalling get far more games than they are. It could be the making of one of them or both. Look how well Varane did when he was given the chance by Jose. I don't think they would do much worse than we have been doing for the past couple of years, that's all I'm saying. Although Evans and Vidic have been doing a lot of Evra's work for him in the past couple of years. Perhaps with a better LB next to him Evans would be even better? But you are right, CB is a difficult position to blood players in. You can stick an 18 year old winger on or an 18 year old striker, but how often do you see an 18 year old CB playing in an EPL game?

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Syd
That's the difference I don't think Jones has played that well at cb for United .
He's done ok for a young player but his positional play and decision making aren't always great
Im still not convinced he's going to be a cb to be honest
The lads got talent and I'm sure will be a top player in the future but at the moment when playing cb I think he needs an experienced cb next to him, same goes for smalling.

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Sydney, you nailed it. Evans has spent most of the last couple of seasons covering for Pat. You can often see him having to be pulled out of position to try and pick up Evra's man. He's left having to make the decision to move across to pick up the runner or staying with his own man. That can't be good for him.

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Jred, when Ferdinand and Vidic leave who would you want to come in? Who has sufficient experience and will marshal the back four well?

StevieK, Evans has been pulled out of position and so has Vidic. Also the left winger has had to drop deep far too often which means he loses his attacking threat. Evra should have been replaced years ago and people will see how much stronger defensively MU are with two better fullbacks.

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Syd
I'm a big fan of subotic, hummels gets all the plaudits and I can understand why as he is very good defender and great on the ball but subotic imo does a lot of his defending .
I would love hummels as well But I think subotic would be a good fit

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No arguments there Jred. Is it really that unthinkable to think we could swap Kagawa for him? We have a big interest in Garay, but haven't seen much of him. Personally I think MU have the player's full commitment and we are trying to get him on the cheap. Either that or Moyes is dithering over him and isn't 100% sure. After all he was a target of SAF.

I like Hummels, but a few Germans that I have spoken too think he's overrated and clumsy. Perhaps you are right about Subotic making him look better than he is?

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Hummels is a class act on the ball and when Dortmund or Germany are playing well and are on top he really looks the part.
He would be a great signing for Barcelona.
Don't get me wrong he is a top player imo but maybe not quite as good as some think

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Jred, Subotic would be significantly cheaper than Hummels so IMO Subotic would be better value for money.

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14 Feb 2014 04:11:32
There have been some doubts expressed over Rafael this season and some saying we need to buy in that position. I am always keen to see us develop our own and was interested in the progress of young right back Saidy Janko, who I note has had some praise from Scholes, high praise indeed and seems to think he has real potential. Young but then so was Januzaj, await to see more of him.

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Him, Lingard and Keane should all be given time to show what they can do.

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Ive heard good things of him redman, but the only game I've watched him play was about 4 weeks ago against leicester in the youth cup and he had an average game and didn't really stand out.

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We have Varela and Janko, both better than Vermijl and he was pretty good. I see Moyes spending cash to bring Coleman in. Martinez could be interested in Rafael. Some sort of swap deal plus cash could be possible. If not we certainly wouldn't have a problem selling him as he would fit in very well in Spain or Portugal.

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I honestly believe we should not be thinking of selling rafael, he is still young and dangerous going forward, if we are going to play a 4-2-3-1 we will want an attacking full like him to help provide width

dags

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14 Feb 2014 00:55:48
I must be the only man on the planet that thought fulham setup around the edge of the box and left no way through the middle
Also I think Moyes has been very unlucky but this is not great copy
Agreed we do need to evolve

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13 Feb 2014 23:55:06
I think we'd have a very successful summer transfer window with three first team players being added to the team. Covering the obvious LB, CB and CM positions.

Who would everybody's be for those positions?

Personally I don't think we'd go wrong with Shaw, Hummels and Kroos

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That would be 75 million of investment that you would not go wrong on.

Besides Chelsea does anyone know who else from the top clubs will be looking for a lb come summer. Excluding RM who I think want Moreno.

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Does no one think we will look at Verthongen in the summer? top player can play all across the back line and can drop into midfield when required, very comfortable on the ball and added to all that EPL experience in the right half of the table.I think he would be a great buy god knows how much he would cost but got to be worth a look.

Thoughts?

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I think Verthongen would be an excellent signing, but I would want another left back on top of that. If he came in then Buttner could go for me.

Having defensive options next season of: Coleman, Rafael, Shaw, Verthongen, Smalling, Evans, Jones & M. Keane would be decent I think.

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{Ed004's Note - I'd happily take that right now. No chance of vertonghen though and he has a very worrying injury record}

Someone mentioned a foreign LB a few weeks ago and Ed002 said that Chelsea were monitoring them. I can't remember the name, but if Ed002 is around, do you think Shaw is definitely on his way to Chelsea or are they monitoring this other LB in case United offer more money for Shaw? Thanks in advance.

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{Ed004's Note - He stated Chelsea were keeping an eye on Rodriguez of wolfsburg. However, personally I'd take either ideally Shaw as he is younger and already established in premiership}

Yeah that was the guy, thanks. I'm with you ed, but i've seen only seen Rodriguez a couple of times so can't really say how good he is. That said, i'd choose Shaw over any LB in the world due to his age, ability and the fact he has a long time to get even better. Even at £25-30m he would be well worth the money as we would have that position covered for at least the next 12 years.

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Damn, rodrigues was my pick for lb lol had no idea chelsea were interested in him too as thought they were certain to go for shaw. I believe rodrigues is still only 21 so at half the price of shaw would still be an excellent investment as the guy is solid defensifely

dags

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