Manchester United Banter Archive December 15 2013

 

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15 Dec 2013 23:13:09
Did anybody else see that half decent cross Valencia whipped in on his left foot?

Today has been like xmas, so many surprises.

Welbeck scoring, Cleverley scoring, both playing well.

Fletcher returning, so so much!

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His through ball to Welbeck was pure class, and he did it with his left foot.

Such a weird game.

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15 Dec 2013 22:58:21
A much better feeling this wknd and I can buy a paper tmoz! Watching the play tday showed what a creative forward thinking midfield can do and in coutinho they have a very good one and I can now see why Henderson was hyped up as he's starting to show now! On to us we r slowly becoming moyseys utd and with a few buys I think it'll work? i'm not clevs biggest fan but in the last 2 games I've seen signs and 1 more creative ball playing midfielder I thnk clevs progress wiv less pressure. Someone like modric or mata. Felliani is struggling with the step up but once he can play his role in a settled midfield I think he'll do well? Adnan is refreshing to see he wants the ball and loves to go 4wad just needs to work on final ball. i'm optimistic for nxt few yrs its just gunna b bumpy and rough on the way?

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15 Dec 2013 21:32:29
After today a few things:
Liverpool have to be considered top four (as I've said in the past as long as Suarez is fit). Very mobile and very fast with a great end product (Suarez)

Everyone is "catchable". Apart from City who I think have nailed it.

A nice surprise for Christmas. A fit Flecther who was only on for 30 odd minutes but produced a bit of elegence to our midfield that I thought was missing.

ABV to take the heat off Moyes etc this week, in the eyes of the media, phone in fans etc etc.

As Fergie roughly said " stand by the new man" EFC seem to be doing alright by what he left them.

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Red Snapper

Everton are now doing very well because the negative shackles have been removed and Martinez performed far better in the transfer market than our manager did. It is without doubt that Martinez has them playing a better style of football, it is about vision and getting that vision over, something we are yet to see from Moyes.

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Red Man, Martinez is known for the attractive football style that he tries to get across to his team but attractive football doesn't always win you games as that proved with Wigan when they were relegated. Yes he's doing well with Everton at the moment but the team will look a bit different next season, how good he actually is will depend on how consistently successful he can make Everton.

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Oswald

I made that same comment on Martinez last week however the balance is to play attractive winning football. SAF manager it but Moyes never did. Martinez actually managed to win the cup something our manager couldn't. Sometimes you need to take risks as safe football doesn't win things.

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Redman

You have been going on and on and for months now since your choice, Jose was not appointed and just talking complete nonsense now and I feel compelled to say something.

Martinez had Wigan in relegation almost every year and finally relegated. He can keep his cup if his style leads to getting relegated.

His style leaks goals all over the place, the saving grace is Moyes left him a formidable back four and very good squad and he picked up a couple of loanees with Lukaku being the major addition and the fact that Chelsea was never going to loan to a pl rival has worked out for him in a fortunate way.

Our manager knows a lot more about Football than you do and so do the directors of this club and spewing all this theory that he was forced unto us is what I expect from my 14 year old son.

I will bet you any amount we finish ahead of your stylish Everton, which played pretty attractive football last year as del whenever I watched them.

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God Created United . Think you should check the papers . Everton & Southampton have joint best defensive records in the Premier League after the drubbing of Arsenal by City . Start saving now to pay all your losing bets come end of the season .

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Martinez had wigan down the bottom of the league because of the standard of players he had.he had a couple of decent players the rest were journeymen.when he's had decent players (swansea, everton) then his teams have played attractive flowing football

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CC

"Moyes left him a formidable back four and very good squad"

Recommend reading the post again and don't worry about me and my betting mate. I will give you the same bet we finish ahead of Everton.

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JD

He had a slightly smaller budget to what Moyes was working with at Everton. His style leaked goals and yes they looked great one week and got hammered the following.

Moyes built that back four at Everton with very little money where Martinez could not do the same at Wigan.

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Ah GCU

It's been a long day

I don't doubt Moyes knows more about football than me, however that doesn't make him good enough to be manager of our club. He couldn't do my job because his CV doesn't have the necessary experience but then it doesn't have the necessary experience to be manager of Manchester United. I also don't think you should be comparing Moyes to Martinez or indeed United to Everton as no disrespect to Everton, who I have said on here that I see as an excellent historical club, but we should be looking higher than that. Maybe we will finish higher than Everton but what would it say about Moyes if we didn't? The fact you are even comparing us to Everton is interesting when we were once comparing ourselves to Bayern, Barca and Real or Arsenal, Chelsea over here.
Martinez has at least won something so let's disagree on Moyes, but I think you should remember that whilst I was an advocate of Mourinho I came round to see the very strong advantages of the impressive Klopp before we appointed the present incumbent. No amount of screaming loyalty will put the necessary winning experience on Moyes CV so fingers and toes crossed he can get us over one of the lines.

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15 Dec 2013 20:29:03
Vital 3 points today and also a much needed performance. Next 4 league games all very winnable with a nice quarter final for the team this week. Hopefully strengthen the midfield in January. I think moyes knows which players he'd like to see go. So fingers crossed it all goes well over the next few weeks and confidence is built while teams above drop points.

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15 Dec 2013 19:04:09
Banter please Eds.

It pains me greatly to say it but the current Top 4 are ALL showing they are potential Champions. Did not think I would be saying that about Liverpool as each week I expect them to drop away but it ain't happening :(

Any side who wins two thirds of their games is title-winning material in my book hence the stark reality is we will be hard-pressed giving these 4 rivals a 7 point start albeit with 22 games to go. And that's not even factoring in an Everton side who look head and shoulders above us on a footballing perspective and Newcastle and Spurs currently in front of us but I do expect to overhaul by May.

So kids bottom line, unless quite a few wheels come off for quite a few teams means we are looking at a non Top 4 finish as being a realistic not pessimistic chance this season.

I hope the Glazers etc have sussed the huge financial hole not competing in Champs League will leave us with. That along side the major £100m+ investment the side needs means their Golden Goose, albeit in a few months time is suddenly worth £200m less than what it is now. And that's not factoring in the inevitable 15-20% share price dip, at best, that will happen if we finish outside Top 4.

A company currently valued at $1.7Bn could soon be staring down the barrel of a good half a billion less than that.

So gentlepeeps if you're the Glazers do you think :
1. Gamble on your unproven managers form picking up and everything will be alright come May

2. Gamble by giving your unproven manager the finance for the 3/4 world class talents we are lacking to make us contenders

3. Sell your $1.7Bn asset now if you can or risk a half a billion dollars hit

Yep even a 3-0 away win can't detract me from the obvious Stick or Twist the United Board must be pondering now.

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Not trying to be a person and I am going to be nice about this. You had egot our valuations wrong by a billion mate you need to retake corporate finance if you think CL qualifications is worth 500 million in valuation :)

Did you factor in how much additional money a good run in the cl is worth given our guidance of qualifying only from the group stage. Needless to say a decent run in the 2 domestic cups will also provide an upside to this years earnings.

On the other stuff no need to comment as the United board is obviously shivering with freight:)

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Shivering with freight? the glazers into the haulage business now as well :)

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Fast fingers mate LOL.

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I too will be kind in my reply :)

As its nearly Christmas lol

Never suggested Champs League was worth 500mil - but do believe its worth 100.

Rebuilding first team is potentially another 100mill and the rest is the inevitable share price dip that we will have if we fail to finish Top 4.

I think all added together the Champs League qualification is worth a lot more than the actual income we receive from it.

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15 Dec 2013 18:45:42
Good result today I hope the DM avoids making wholesale changes for wed players are obviously scratching around for form and need to build on this win with a run he needs to give them a chance to get some consistency. maybe on wed make 2/3 changes max from chich, zaha smalling vidic kagawa and fellani they are the only others who deserve a chance but for me the likes of buttner, young fabio ando and nani have had enough chances so don't play them ever unless we have to, they should not even come into rotation selection. All players like continuity and familiarity and this run of games including what I think is a very important 1/4 final on wed is an opportunity for guys to play themselves into form so a minimum of changes please and no more United appearances for the deadwood please.

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Yeah. Agreed Ken. Hope we can build on this. And I hope the centre of defence and the formation remains the same.

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15 Dec 2013 18:26:26
Great result and a good team performance. When Rooney dropped deeper it worker really well.

Giggs didn't offer too much but then he is 40 and doesn't have the legs anymore.

Only real negative was evra. So poor.

Young came on purely to be put in the shop window.

Valencia Rafael combo excellent.

And fletcher slotted in nicely when he came on. Massive positive that may just lift the team for the Christmas period.

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Yep, very solid 3pts. Good on Welbeck, we needed him to hit some form today and credit to Cleverly too.

I just need to add though - I hope today isn't the excuse Moyes needs to NOT buy midfielders.

Think about it - Cleverly scores and Fletcher returns from illness. I can quite easily see Moyes claiming this is "like two new signings".

Onwards and upwards!

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15 Dec 2013 17:45:12
What are peoples thoughts on recalling Powell or leaving him on loan for the rest of the season?.

I would say it would depends on who we sell and buy to replay them I.e Young and Anderson.

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I'd rather him getting a premier league loan this january, maybe at Cardiff

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I think he should be at Wigan for rest of the season. He will definitely get 40+ games in a league which is lot more physical.

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Another good game today from all accounts, with a goal from an overhead kick to top it off.

I haven't seen enough of him on loan. Do people think he's ready to take the step up?

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For me it depends what his chances of Playing every week are as he is getting a lot of games to aid his development at Wigan. If moyes feels he will play a lot of games bring him back (if the terms of the loan allow) but if not I would leave him where he is. Personally if moyes is only just giving zaha a few minutes now I would expect the same for Powell. Got to give Powell credit he has banged in a few goals and keep seeing him as star man in a lot of paper reports but the championship and premiership are two different animals.

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I have watched him a few times this year and as recently as their european tie a few days ago. He is playing as a lone striker and to be honest in a very average team. I agree the game time will help him physically but the quality of players around him is not great.

He is quick for his size and looks like he has filled in. I rate him higher than Zaha and just a lot more mature on the ball with his decision making on current form the only issue is where do we play him given who we have upfront.

I know everyone talks about Barkely at the moment but this boy can be better and I was one of the guys who was on the fence about him.

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Stevie, not at this moment in time.

While he does score his fair share of goals, tackles pretty well and his technical ability is not in question, he has shown he still has a lot of work to do.

His passing has been very hit and miss. He tends to be very over ambitious therefore his passing stats are abysmal and unacceptable at a club of our stature.

Maybe it's Wigan's approach to the game, where they tend to be very direct, that affect those stats and their tactics demand him to try and go for the final pass every time he's on the ball.

And when he has played, he has either played as a striker or a number 10, but it's obvious the coaching staff see him as a central midfielder but that's not going to happen at Wigan, a cub desperate for any sort of creativity.

But he might prove to be good enough at this moment in time for a bottom half premier league club who are in need of a central midfielder. Both crystal Palace and Cardiff could use his attributes, partnering more defensively minded midfielders in medel and Jednak

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We are lacking in that department and for me, the more options we have the better.
Really interesting to see who we might bring in the January window.

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Mick1

I don't agree about his passing and it is more to do with Wigan. He hardly has anyone around him and they boot it long to him quite often and he is upfront chasing balls. Not much interlink play and very direct as you say.

I think he is being wasted and only good thing is as someone pointed he is getting game time and physically maturing.

I think in our set up with better players around him he would really progress, the only issue is where to play him as he is not a holding midfielder and more attacking.

I expect to see him in our main squad next year.

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GCU,
Rather than first team football next season how about loaning him to a club like Hull (if not relegated) or Leicester City (If prmoted). It will be gradual development.

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PR

I think he will not be far off unless we buy quite a number of midfielders that he would need a loan due to a lack of game time.

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15 Dec 2013 16:01:01
Well Villa are hardly a scalp atm but we played well enough without really dominating.

There were some real positives to be taken out of the game, and for once we got the right result too.

First off that has to be Valencia's best game of the season, and his partnership with Rafael on the right hand side today showed signs of getting back to its best.

The Jones and Evans partnership looked very solid today against a Villa attack that had both Pace(Agbonglahor) and power(Benteke). And should probably be our first choice partnership going forward from here.

Cleverley had an excellent game, as always his passing was solid and dependable but he was more adventurous today which showed in him getting forward and having a few shots. Cleverley had three shots with two on target, the only other player to have any shots on target was Welbeck. So hopefully this isn't just a one off and we are seeing some improvement in him.

Welbeck played fantastically and deserved his man of the match award. His hold up play was superb with him bring people into the attack at every oppertunity, and he was much more proficent infront of goal than usual as seen by his two goals. If the ball had fallen more kindly for him a couple of times in the second half then he could very well have had a hat trick.

And of course the best positive of all, Fletcher getting back on the pitch. He may never regain his past form but the sight of him out on the pitch was a very happy one for me and I suspect many others as well.

So some real positives out of a game that I along with most of us thought could be a tough game when the team sheet was announced.

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Amazing we dominate an away game and play well and very little banter. A bad result and they all come out of the woodwork LOL.

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The problem is following up this decent performance against a very poor side instead of what we have done all season 1 good result followed by a poor showing.
Valencia looked like he was back to best a month ago then did nothing.


I hope we kick on but won't go shouting from the rooftops just yet.

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Shahram, because we didn't play well enough to dominate headline, nor bad enough to draw out critics.

Games like this should be routine. We should have scored more tbh but we're on our way to get some sort of form back.

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The biggest plus for me was seeing Fletcher back. I hadn't realised how much i'd missed watching him until he came on. Hope he gets back to full fitness

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We played well and deserved to win. And the right tactics.
It is villa though and they've scored 6 goals at home all season.
The worry and complaints came when we lose at home to wba, Newcastle and everton. And only manage a draw against the might of cardiff.
So hopefully we can move on from here there is a long way to go before we can start celebrating. But great to see fletcher back.

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Great to see the reception for Fletcher when he came on, from both sides I might add - touch of class.

I hope it doesn't persuade Moyes that we're still not short in midfield, but Darren at least deserves the same chance as the rest of the squad to prove his worth.

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DevilDust

Same side that beat Arsenal away and City at home mate. It will not kill anyone to admit we made them look poor and just controlled the game in every aspect. It just shows that there are many teams out there that can beat any of the top sides on any given weekend.


It seems like people get more satisfaction in a poor result so they can all say I told you so, just to air their view that moyes is the wrong man for the Job.

Last year, we were never as good as many thought here but still a top 4 team barring injuries but not a PL winning team.

I still believe we will finish ahead of the likes of Everton, Newcastle, Southampton and even Liverpool but will not win the league. We will not be too far away from Arsenal and Chelsea Either. The only team that is scary is city as they look like they can rip anyone apart like no other team.

Mick

Today we should have had at least 5 and headlines would have been "United hammer Villa and back to their best".

Moyes is right in saying we wasted many opportunities.

Finally, someone the other day was defending ABV's credential over our manager, I wonder what we would do if he was managing us had a pretty good squad and spent 110 million in the summer and got hammered 6-0 away at city and 5-0 to liverpool at home :)

I say wait till end of Jan and see where we are.

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It was a step forward, Moyes got the tactics right today. Similar to Bayern away we were much more fluid and broke quickly. Rooney dropping into the central area to make a three so we were not overrun is something we should have done more often. My concern is that he will go back to two up front when we don't have the midfield to play it but hopefully today he has learnt and it is something we have been calling for for a while.
I think Januzaj is already showing signs of real potential, there will be ups and downs yet he looks physically stronger than his debut a little like how Ronaldo developed his physique. Welbeck found the goal and played the lone forward reasonably well, he needs to find that form regularly to stay in the team. The Villa team were poor but it's 3 points and we need to get the tactics right regularly and buy well. An improvement but it needs to be consistent. Finally it was good to see Fletcher back playing and having someone more assured centrally was a bonus

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Yes, and while our attack was brilliant at times, we still allowed them way too much time on the ball especially in our own half.

They had 15 attempts at goal, 46 % possession, and spent more time in our defensive third than we did in theirs.

This game shows obvious improvements, but also shows we still can't seem to dominate teams.

This will come with time and more importantly reinforcements. And to be completely honest I did not like the performance as much as some of the others.

I believe that we should be moving towards a more fluid formation, where we are able to create through the middle. If this game proved anything, it's how much we rely on wing play. If Aston Villa had better full backs and/or more hard working wingers, the game would have been much more dangerous for us.

I'd much rather see Moyes start with Januzaj and kagawa on the wings as inverted wingers capable of coming inside and creating play through the middle, with the midfielders sitting deep and the full backs pushing up the field, than have us overload the wings.

Maybe this is Moyes' ultimate plan, to follow the likes of bayern, barcelona and to a certain extent Dortmund, to stop relying on traditional wingers and move towards a more modern formation, but apart from the Newcastle game where he played Nani and januzaj as inverted wingers, he has not shown to be drawn towards such formation.

but this is my opinion. Others believe we always played with width, using crossing and overloading the wings to cut through defenses. Our champions league winning team of 2008 proved a bit different, and that's what I hope we're moving for

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Mate we must have watched a different game and the stats don't tell the truth. They did not do much with possession and we should of had 5 or 6 goals. We had no need to push players forward when leading 3-0 and did what we do, defend and hit them on the counter.

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15 Dec 2013 15:56:32
Great Performance today and just a very good team effort. Not exaggerating by saying it could have been 6 or 7 goals. I think we played 4231 and that seems to have helped. Onwards and upwards as they say West Ham at home next.

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We did get the formation right. And it paid off. Good match and good result.
On a separate note, Liverpool went in with 4 in midfield against spurs and they demolished them. Wish we can stop playing two wingers. We have the players up top that can hurt anyone. But we need to feed them and the best way to do that is thru more bodies in and midfield.

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Playing Rooney in Midfield was a good move and should have been done weeks ago he really helped Clevs and Giggs and still was able to be a threat in the right areas.

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I actually think we were playing a 4-2-1-3. Rooney was playing much deeper than a number 10, and Januzaj and Valencia were both quite high up the pitch. Evra's frailties were highlighted more with this system, but the right hand side worked incredibly well with Rafael and Valencia playing off one another and over lapping at will. What really impressed me today was Cleverley, he covered quite a lot when the full backs were caught high up the pitch.

The performance may have been good, but I think NoMidfield put it right further up the page that wins like this should be routine. What we need now is consistency.

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Utd have always played with wingers - it's in our DNA.

I know it's fashionable to play 3 up front, but as a Utd fan raised on Hill, Coppell, Giggs and Kanchelskis, I have to say, I love the edge of the seat thrill that top quality, speedy wingers bring to the game, but that's just a personal view.

And I stress, 'top quality', before anyone starts throwing Nani and Young in my face!

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Agreed steviek on the excitement wingers bring. But as u say, they have to be top quality.
Problem is we have to move with the times and we can't play with two wingers as it leaves us exposed.
But hill and coppell were great as were all the great wingers we've had over the years.

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I know. I'm just an old-fashioned, aul fuddy-duddy :)

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Join the club!

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15 Dec 2013 15:31:18
As pleasing for me as the final score was seeing Darren Fletcher back on the pitch. If we could get him back to his best and keep him fit it would be like a new signing!

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100% agree. At his peak you could line him up against anyone and he would do a job for us. Glad he is back and hope he has finally gotten over his condition.

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Yeah no need to sign a new midfielder in January now.

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Devil Dust

That's what i'm afraid of mate. Great for Fletch, but I see Moyes pointing to him and Cleverly's goal as reasons to not sign a midfielder.

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15 Dec 2013 15:28:47
Above all else, it was fantastic to see Darren Fletcher on the pitch today.
Whether or not he can get back to his old level, only time will tell; but it was great to see him play.

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15 Dec 2013 15:28:03
Evening Gents,
I have'nt had too much to shout about this weekend but I have to congratulate you boys on a fantastic result.
Taking your current form into account and the fact you have so many injuries, todays result at Villa Park was amazing.

Well done and welcome back to the title race lol.

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We're still quite a way off the title race. A couple of wins in a row and we're back in contention for a champions league spot. A couple more and we're five points off the leaders

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Mick1

The teams above us are playing each other quite a few times over the next few weeks and also have some slippery away fixtures to teams who are troublesome.

I agree if we can have a run of 4 or 5 wins in a row, we will be in the top 4 and very close to the leaders. I think Arsenal will drop points against Chelsea. Spurs getting hammered by the Scousers. We have Westham, Norwich, Hull in our next 3 and should win those games.

Spurs look tired and terrible from the first kick and not playing in Europe helps the scourers.

One other thing the other teams have been fortunate is that they have had no major injuries to key players except City.

I think this will be such an exciting league this year.

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We're playing Spurs and Chelsea in the coming month, and we have quite a few easy fixtures before then.

We should be able to win the lot (although with us, you just never know) and go into the Chelsea game around the 5th place, hopefully with Gundogan controlling our midfield, and our confidence should be running high

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If we win our games till we meet chelsea we should be in the top four. That would mean winning the next 5 and 6 on the bounce. In this league that is some doing.

If we do that we will not be far off the top or chelsea for that matter and expect us to be within 3 to 4 points of the top in the worse case scenario.

It will be some run, especially if we get a few players in January, Carrick and RVP back fit and quite fresh.

Yeah I know lot's of if's in there LOL.

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Dagenham,
Take no pleasure, whatsoever, in the fact that "I told you so" and the bitters gave you a right royal rogering at the weekend. Your next game against Chelski is, I think, make or break for your title ambitions. Lose and I think you ain't got the experience or winning mentality to hold off the chasing pack, particularly City.

Our display was much better on Sunday against, it has to be said, a pretty poor Villa side but we've had a number of similar good displays followed by dross. Very un-United like, usually we can kick on and start a winning streak. If we revert to type I don't think we'll be far off the top 4 in January but will we? Time will tell.

Suppose the only comfort for you is that the spuds got another tanking and that muppet Levy sacked AVB. Used to be good fun in these parts when Citeh were showing themselves up like that but at the moment mirth is a bit thin on the ground as they seem to be getting right!

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15 Dec 2013 14:44:23
looks like rafael is getting back to full fitness and has found his pace and touch again. So glad as he is a big player for us. Valencia and him on the right giving Villa hell.

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15 Dec 2013 12:55:09
De Gea
Rafael Jones Evans Evra
Valencia Cleverley Giggs Januzaj
Rooney Welbeck

Really hope I'm wrong and its actually Januzaj in the hole and welbeck on the left. I like the look of the defence. The centre halfs have a bit of pace so hopefully they push higher up so that the midfield can be closer to the attackers.

Hoping for a good game, I'm going to be optimistic and go for 2-0 with Januzaj and Rooney on the score sheet.

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Bet you feel like an absolute mug now!

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I'll happily feel like a mug all day long as long as welbeck keeps on scoring!

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15 Dec 2013 13:26:37
Anyone managed to see Tom Lawrence's two goals for Carlisle yesterday? Well done lad!

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Yep, mate. 2 top drawer goals, alright.

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Well done on dodging the Xmas shopping. I also like the comments from Notes that we will be offloading some of those players who have under performing

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Id he good enough to make it with us? Never seen him play.

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15 Dec 2013 13:24:16
And Pat's interview on Sly Sports wasn't too shabby either.

We all know his defensive liabilities, but a top Utd man through and through.

Sorry for the multiple posts, but it's my first weekend off since February, AND I dodged a Xmas shopping trip with the wife :)

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Mine likes to go alone that way she can spend as she wishes and no need for me to be there, damage done, half of Norway is getting presents this year:)

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15 Dec 2013 13:23:06
Say what you want about evra defensively but it will be dissapointing when he leaves the guy is united through and through the interview on sly shows the passion he has for united. He. He has been lacking defensively but if other players showed the drive and passion as he did we would be in a much better posistion.

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It's a shame we cannot have a 25 year old Evra.

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I will take the 21 year old Sevilla guy (moreno), as good as most wingers going forward, I think Evra might be quite useful as a backup.

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Agreed guys. Shahram is right though. Moreno is excellent.

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15 Dec 2013 12:24:44
Great article in the Fail on Sunday today, by Gary Neville.

Hope some on here read it, and see how a proper red legend, and somebody who actually understands football at this level, sees our current situation with Moyes.

Like him, I can't understand how people, including posters I respect and like, like Shappy, are even discussing who our next manager is going to be, a third of the way into Moyes' first season.

The guy deserves a bit better than that, from fans who are supposed to be a bit classier than the rest of them.

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StevieK

Have not read it but can guess what he has said. There is no point to any logic and the crowd is fickle and looking for a hanging party. It is very hard for some people to accept the fact that we are not winning due to injuries to key players and loss of form to the fringe players and want to hang it on someone.

Read a stat today that RVP and Rooney have only played 8 of 24 games so far this season together and in those 8 we are undefeated.

If I was a betting man, I would bet that a lot of the current squad will be gone in the next 24 months before Moyes is gone.

BTW not the greatest bench today and no Kagawa or Vidic, hope they are not injured.

As usual have bet on us winning, needless to say it has been a bad bet most of the year :)

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Football has changed in the last 5 years. It is all about trophies and the CL money. It is now more than ever a results business. what's more the united way to win trophies and play attractive footballer or to have a manager in charge for 20 years. Its a RESULTS business its not "get on your high horse and support the team". I couldn't care who was manager as long as come May we are competing for the top honours.

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Steviek

I read Neville's article first thing this morning and disagree with it.

It is all very well playing the loyalty card if the manager has already demonstrated he has the skills and experience necessary to recover the position. The difference is that Moyes has come in and sacked back room staff who knew what it took to win. Moyes only knows Everton ways and is bringing that Everton mentality into what was a winning club.

Finally let me say that if we had say Klopp in charge and had had a similar start I can say that I would be 100 percent behind him, I would be agreeing with Neville because Klopp knows what it takes to be successful and would turn it round. Klopp would also have sold his vision of the future. My problem is that Moyes has never demonstrated any aspect of what is needed and yet I am being asked to support him. This is a dangerous time with an inexperienced manager and it is now a judgement call on whether he can get it right. Get that decision wrong and it will affect our future massively.

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Stevie, Fans' disappointment in Moyes signing in the first place is not to be under estimated.

Look at when we bought Valencia. He was a fantastic player for Wigan and played very well for us pre injury, but fans were always a bit disappointed not because of his own shortcomings, but because he replaced a much greater player.

The same reasoning comes here. I believe Moyes is a very good manager, but he's not Fergie good. And unfortunately for him, he is going to be judged in comparison.

Our bad results so far have only raised the volume of their worries.

I honestly believe had it been Mourinho or Klopp having such bad results, they would have been given more of a chance

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I know, Mick.

So many on here wanting Mourinho. He came back to a club he knew inside out, and splashed a few quid, but he's hardly set the world alight.

it's only because of Utd's difficulties, that Mourinho's relatively poor start is being overlooked.

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Red Man, you're being asked to support him because he's the new manager of Man Utd. Full stop. I think some things are more important than results, and our club knowing how to treat it's own, is one of those things.

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Red Man and Mick1 are spot on. Most peoples issue with Moyes appointment is he has never won anything or appropriate European experience to manage United.

I do hope he can come good in time but whether he gets the time is another thing. We may be able to cope with missing out on Top 4 one season but certainly not twice.

If Klopp, Mourinho or Ancelotti had the same start there simply would not be the same level of concern as they are all proven winners with the demonstrable calibre to manage United. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, Moyes does not have that. Fact.

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It looks like our manager might make it for one more week:)

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Steviek

Loyalty works more than one way. Has Moyes displayed loyalty to the back room staff he axed? I didn't see Neville expressing disappointment at the lack of loyalty to them and to people who brought continuing success to the club. I support the club and the team without needing to be told about loyalty and I don't have to show loyalty to a manager who was appointed without the necessary experience. Should Moyes achieve anything then I will give him credit and in time support but I remain firm in my thoughts that we appointed the wrong man.

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"Should Moyes achieve anything then I will give him credit and in time support "

So you want the best of both worlds? You'll criticise him constantly until it comes good, and then you'll give your support to him. That's very good of you, mate. How about backing him from the start to give him a better chance? Or at the very least, hold your tongue until the man actually gets a chance to do his job. And by chance, I don't mean a third of a season.

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Steviek

Like I said if he had the credentials as for example Klopp does I would not be having this exchange. I also don't like the suggestions of disloyalty for not being convinced by a manager who was foisted on us. I have supported the club and the team without question over many years and note we were also told to be loyal to Sexton and co. A few months ago I suggested we should have changed direction away from having the old fashioned all powerful manager and gone with the Bayern Munich, Barca type model in which the structure of the club isn't ripped up by someone coming in and ousting the back room staff. Not much loyalty by Moyes there was there?

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I'm not suggesting disloyalty, mate. I'm suggesting a certain degree of 'having your cake and eating it'.

Is it really so hard for our more negative fans to say, 'let's hold off on the criticism of Moyes, until the man gets a proper chance at doing his job? Much as we love hearing the sound of our own opinions, and, most importantly, hopefully having our opinions on him proved right, maybe we'll just sit back and say nothing until he gets a season at least under his belt."

If after next summer, there's no sign of getting back to where we've been, then by all means, shout your mouths off as loudly as you want.

You keep saying you're 'told' to support the manager. I say support for a NEW manager, whoever he is, should be an absolute pre-requisite for any Utd fan. You shouldn't need to be told to do it. I don't give him my support, because Fergie 'told' me to. I do it because I want to give the guy, and our club, every chance.

Do we not want him to have the best chance possible to succeed? Or would we rather criticise him constantly, feed the media sharks, add to the pressure on him, and see him fail, just to try and justify our personal opinion of him.

The fella's taken on the biggest job in world football, managing the biggest club in the world after the greatest ever manager has left, and you expected him to just slot right in, without making any mistakes? Seriously?

Who's to say the beloved and revered Klopp would have fared any better? In fact, it could be argued, that as manager of Dortmund, there's absolutely no pressure on Klopp. They're comfortably Germany's second club, and even their own fans don't expect them to seriously challenge Munich. Finishing second and a wee run in Europe every season, and his job's safe - comfort zone. Take him to Utd, where we're expected to win everything by our demanding fans, and who's to say he wouldn't crack under the pressure? Football is not an exact science.

I often tell my son, that a better way to judge a person, is how they deal with adversity, rather than when things are going well.

I have to say, the reaction of some on here during a difficult period at the club, has been embarrassing. It's taken rival fans to come on here, and put a little perspective on things.

You do know, that it's not a few poor results that have them laughing at us, it's some of our fans' reactions that have them in hysterics.

Is it really that difficult to support our manager, despite the fact you personally would rather have had someone else? If it is, I'd suggest that you're letting your own sense of self-importance, get in the way of doing everything to help the current regime succeed, and by extension, helping our club succeed.

As for your last remark, Moyes personally, owed the backroom staff no loyalty. He'd never worked with them before. You could say he showed loyalty to the people he had been working with, in taking them with him. His decision, and one that'll either prove to be right or wrong in the long-term. But not a decision that can be proved in 6 months.

And as I recall, most on here were calling Phelan all sorts of derogatory names last season. Yet now, he was a vital part of the backroom staff? Another case of wanting it all ways.

Anyway, I've waffled on long enough. I enjoy our little discussions, even if I don't agree with you. At least you can string a coherent argument together, unlike some of the spoilt little madams :)

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Steviek

I think we trod similar ground in the seventies although I think I was around a little longer and my feeling is based on the misplaced loyalty given to other managers. The pre Ferguson managers did not have his winning experience and until we brought him in we fell short. It was always going to be next year. When SAF came in we knew what he had done, his medals and winning mentality. He also made us aware of his goal. It made him very credible as the new manager of a fallen giant, winning was in his DNA. We suffered the Sexton era and Atkinson never got to grip with what was needed despite both having better CVs than Moyes had. I felt the successor to SAF had to have the stature but I confess to being utterly amazed at the choice. To appoint someone without a win was such a major risk to the clubs immediate future.

Moyes probably doesn't owe loyalty to the back room staff but I wasn't thinking Phelan, at all, I was thinking Rene and our Goalkeeping coach plus other changes in infrastructure.

The Opposition fans I know are not laughing at our reactions but they are openly rubbing their hands with glee because we chose Moyes. One Scouser I know said they couldn't believe their luck and thanked their lucky stars we didn't get Klopp because that would have frightened them to death.

I think Moyes inexperience shows in a lot of ways one for example in his dealing with the press but I go back to a point I made about leadership. The United job needs a leader and leadership is far more than managing, Moyes should have sold us his vision of where he wanted to take us but we still don't know what he wants us to buy into.

I enjoy a good debate, but passionately love the club and am frustrated by the risk they have taken. The experience of the pre SAF years left me very keen on the right choice and what I have seen so far has left me very concerned. I work long hours but feel so passionately I spend a lot of time writing on here as many do and whatever we think of Moyes we all want our team to win.

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There's misplaced loyalty, mate, and there's giving a guy more than a third of a season to show if he's up to the job.

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Best read so far. Thank you Steviek and Red Man

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StevieK

Moyes didn't display he was up to the job at United during 11 years at Everton so three months more isn't going to make a difference!

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15 Dec 2013 12:20:36
We are all trying to work out what has wrong and some want immediate answers while others are more patient. There is no right or wrong. But so many things have happened in the past few years to get us to this stage.
Glazers for putting the club in a terrible financial state. Ferguson for standing by them and shafting the fans. Ferguson for picking fights with any player who dared challenge him or who tried to match his ego. Ferguson for agreeing to sell ronaldo but then only replacing him with Valencia. Ferguson for trying to buy every single third rate winger no one has heard of, tosic, bellion, obertan. For ferguson ignoring our midfield and only buying one decent midfielder in the past five years. For Ferguson allowing his judgement to be clouded in his recommendation of Moyes on the basis that they come from the same place and ignoring the huge job that is required at this club. For Moyes to come in and stupidly think he can sack all the backroom staff instead of blooding his mean in slowly.
But the only difference is that ferguson was a winner. No matter how many bad decisions he made, united still came out trumps, because he had the winning mentality.
I'm not sure if Moyes is right or wrong for the job, but he has not got the winning mentality at the moment and didn't have it at Everton. So what does the club do, do we stick with him for three years and see where it gets us, or do we change? I don't envy anyone making that decision!
One thing we must all agree on is, Apathy. We must never allow our club, the owners, the manager, the players, or us the fans to be apathetic. We must realise our weaknesses and try to solve them, we must see our strengths and try to improve on them.
Non of the fans on this site can be accused of apathy, as optimistic, pessimistic, we are all passionate about our love for this great club. But the fans have a huge part to play, especially at OT. In the 60, 70, 80's we had poor teams but the noise was deafening. I think a lot of them now have got used to the winning ways, and think they can just turn up and the other teams will crumble. This can also be pointed at some of our players.
So what I want to see from us, from Moyes, from the players, and from the owners is some passion, the winning mentality, anger. But above all, I don't want us to be apathetic and things will just get better because we are United.
Sorry for the long post (shappy!) But I love this club and I want us all to stand up, stop making excuses and be Manchester United.

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15 Dec 2013 11:01:01
Just in case Sir Alex is considering phoning Mr Martinez whilst he's out doing his Christmas shopping with his missus, then don't bother this year as Roberto is under contract and cannot be persuaded over the price of a cuppa.

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15 Dec 2013 01:25:30
Ed, can I get this posted on the Banter page please.

I still owe you guys a long post haha.

I was looking through todays posts and saw my old adversary, Shappy, posting about possible successors, if any to David moyes in the near future.

This got me thinking about the best Managers in the world, and there are a few that our younger visitors may not recognize, so it also gives you a chance to learn something new, great huh?

so, here goes my managerial post;

I may be a little unpopular with my opinion but my choices to succeed Mr. Moyes are fairly solid, and although they may not be your favorite choice, they're records certainly speak for themselves.

I would have loved to have said Del Bosque as my number 1 but I'm trying to keep things a little realistic. I'm even tempted to go with Carlos Bianchi as number 1, what a terrific manager he is.

Before we get down to it, I also want to mention some other top class managers who I didn't put into my own PERSONAL top 3.

Other considerations;

I would also love to see someone like Faith Terim come in, he's been incredibly successful in Turkey, the most successful ever I believe?

He plays very good football, not Barcelona style but like the counter attacking United of old, and seeing as he's currently unemployed he's suit the Glazers style.

Vanderlei Luxemburgo - Okay, so he failed massively with Real Madrid 10 years ago. but his style of play and attitude towards the game is incredible. It's a big challenge to step up back in to Europe and I'm not sure if he could hack it, looking at his current record though there aren't many managers better.

there are a hell of a lot of options though, obvious choices like Klopp, Mourinho, Guardiola, etc. are all top managers but I wanted to change things up with managers who I believe are equally as good just not the media icons. I also think managers like the following deserve a mention; Van Gaal, Trapattoni, Lippi & Ottmar Hitzfeld.


3) Lucian Favre - This guy is a Glazer type manager. He's managed to get Monchengladbach playing terrific football and he guided them from a relegation scrap when he took over to top 4 in one year. very under-rated coach imo.

2)Fabio Capello - the best tactician in the world IMO. Not only does he work to his sides strengths but he also adjusts his tactics to out do his opponents.

Genuinely, I would put him down in the top 5 managers since the 1990.

1) Otto Rehhagel - his sides are defensively perfect. while also having a great spine and attack, not the pretty Barcelona football we may want to see but a successful brand nonetheless. imagine Mourinho without the arrogance.

his list of achievements are brilliant, winning the Euro in 2004 with Greece, and his biggest success, tranforming Werder Bremen from a mediocre second division side to the best side in Germany in 2 seasons. winning the Bundesliga in his sides first top flight season.

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Good post mate. My only question would be, if any of these managers did succeed moyes, how long would it be for? If I'm not mistaken quite a few of those managers have a good few years on moyes and are heading towards the saturation point in management if I'm not mistaken? That's not me having a go I'm just genuinely interested to see what people think haha

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Hi moon,

Another logical post, agree with some suggestions but disagree with some too.
I think wanderlei is just suited to the brazillian game to b honest so I wouldn't go for him, Favre though I agree is one of the most underrated coaches in the world, am I right in saying Bayern wer looking at him at one point?
For me I'd like to give Moyes the time he needs, if that doesn't happen I'd go for laudrup, think he fits the bill. But I agree with your suggestions of Capello and rehagel aswell, Capello is stil one of the best I believe.
Also moon, have u heard of these silly rumours about RVP going to barca? I'm only asking because of your Spanish background

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Red Devil Chris,

They are knocking a bit, but with the exception of one or two I think they could manage for a further 6/7 years. Look at SAF as an example of how far you can go.

Big Mac,

I agree about Luxemburgo, whenever he's been in a 'Big' job he hasn't done too well, however he's still a top, top manager.

I'd imagine they looked at him, as far as I remember Bayern, as good as they are always struggle to beat Monchengladbach.

i also agree, Moyes does need time, okay so I don't like him but I genuinely think he's being hones with the fans. I don't buy into this Glazer rubbish about having no money either.

I would see how he does at the end of this season, if he's laid foundations to build on then let him continue, if the club is still a huge mess then let him go. that's the way I see it.

I like the look of Laudrup but I think as soon as Madrid come calling he'll be off, so for that reason he won't be on my wanted list.

As for RVP, I've got friends and family from all over Spain, a few in Barcelona and when I've had a little skype chat with them, they all laugh at it. they as fans don't WANT RVP. They think he's a great player just not a Barcelona player.

They don't seen to be looking at a forward in the slightest, according to them, Barcelona are looking at another CM and CB. who? I couldn't tell you.

So, it appears all this RVP talk is coming from this side of the water only.

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Again. Good reply! I reckon solskjaer will have a big future in management

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15 Dec 2013 00:16:54
This may have been asked before, but just for fun who does everyone think is the best manager that played under SAF.
There are a few to choose from, but my top 3 would be
1. Laurent Blanc
2. Steve Bruce
3. David Moyes :)

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Good shouts. I'd include mark Hughes somewhere for his spell at Blackburn :)

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