Manchester United Banter Archive March 15 2014

15 Mar 2014 16:34:15
Strange comment from Moyes Asked if it was accurate to suggest Liverpool are favourites on Sunday, Moyes said: “It may well be. Their league position suggests they’re ahead of us. They possibly do come here favourites.”
As the guardian says:
Some may call this psychological warfare – Jose Mourinho may do it to put the pressure on the opposition. But, in a season of white flags and meek surrenders, it just feels like yet another piece of defeatism by David Moyes. This is the pivotal game of the season fro Manchester United. Win it and it’s game on for the season again.

You could imagine Sir Alex answering such a question by with words to the effect of ‘I don’t care who the bookies make as favourites. One thing that I can promise you is that Liverpool will know they have been in a game today.’

I think his comments were pathetic and lack any fight.

{Ed007's Note - So when Mourinho does it it's psychological warfare but when Moyes does it you say it is defeatism? Nothing like looking at things NM!}

Nomidfield, I guess I'm pretty much in the " Moyes out " camp, but let's not push it.

If he said we were favorites, it's being delusional. If he used the whole " form goes out the window when the 2 teams face each other " you can't help but feel that, much like Liverpool for the past 20 seasons, this would be our cup final, thus creating a sense of inferiority for us since they're up there challenging for the title, and we're cursing our luck that Cardiff could not hold onto a draw against Everton.

When he says they are favorites, he is pretty much acknowledging the fact that their league position is higher than ours, also to a certain extent making it a must win game for them, taking the pressure off of us.

Whether this tactic works is up for debate, but Mourinho and Alex have been well known for their ability to shift the pressure off of their players, and put it on the shoulders of the opposing teams/rivals.

Nomid

Only you would find that as defeatist and interpret that this way. why don't you mention the rest of his comments like "we will do whatever we can to beat them".

NM Salmon fishing in Yemen again I see :)

{Ed007's Note - I missed out the word 'objectively' in my reply. It should read:

Nothing like looking at things objectively NM.

Mick1

Too much common sense mate :)

Fair enough guys, I just want to hear about of fight from our manager. "We will do anything we can to beat them" does not fill me with hope!
Why couldn't he say, my players are champions and we are ready and relishing the challenge and we will play and perform like champions.
Mick1, you are right about saf and mourinho, they are a cut above the rest and know how to relieve the pressure off their teams. Though mourinho can a cropper tonight.
I will be cheering like mad tomorrow, my wife is already not looking forward to the TV being smashed if we don't win, (I am in Portugal at present). So for the sake of preserving my TV, And my marriage! I hope we trounce the scousers.

NM, the managers show you a different side to themselves. Moyes seems like a gentle mannered character, but I have no doubt in my mind he is a harda$$, a real tough one with the team and in training.

Ferguson always tries to blame everybody but his players ( the pitch, the referees, the FA, Bin Laden . ) and yet he is well known to scaring the living crap out of his players ( hairdryer treatment ).

Mourinho looks like a complete tool at times, but plenty of players have very good things to say about him, and he's a pretty decent person away from the job imo. Ed002 can clear it up.

I believe that behind the scenes, Moyes will be trying to get his players fired up. He will not come out and say " we will destroy them " because he knows full well he will get slaughtered by the media if things go wrong. When the team underperformed under Fergie, the players let him down. When it's under Moyes, he will be the one judged to have let them down.

The fire and drive are there, he just needs to show his credentials before coming out in front of the press all guns blazing.

Now we have a similar stand when it comes to Moyes. We both did not want him from the beginning, but for different reasons. You do not like him, and fair enough. I actually like Moyes and I think he can be a brilliant manager once he realizes his limitations as an attacking tactician ( something Fergie did a while ago ) and appoints more modern coaches. I'm not sure he will though and he just might have been overrating himself at the beginning of the season, but once he does, he will be a success whether it is here, or elsewhere.

But it's unfair to criticize him for what he says to the media without knowing how he is like on the inside. We all knew how much Ferguson battered his players after bad performances, so we did not mind when he goes off blaming everyone but them to the press. Once we know what Moyes is like, we'll be better equipped to judge him.

I hope you're right mick. I just don't see him as a motivational manager. Non of the players seem to put themselves on the line for him.
And to make matters worse, we get robbie person savage with a smirk on his face on motd telling us that Liverpool will beat us easy. Big chip on the shoulder mr. Savage.

I think Moyes is a decent nice man, so was Dave Sexton, but doesn't have the experience or positive winning mentality to be our Manager.

I go back to comments from Moyes prior to the Newcastle game for example, they were telling. He said we will make it difficult for them. Difficult? This is United at home against Newcastle and we will make it difficult. This time it may or may not be psychology but Moyes has previous history with what he says pre game, almost as if he is nervous about being too positive in case it comes back to bite him. It is probably better to ignore what he says and look at the team he puts out and see what they try to do. Mainly his team has been safety first but let's see what he does today.

15 Mar 2014 13:09:53
Well we're now moving towards what should be the key 9 days in Moyes career as manager of Manchester United. Liverpool, Olympiakos then Man City all home games.
We have to win the game against Olympiakos to show he can manage against european sides, as if he can't beat a side like Olympiakos(no disrespect to them) at home in a knock out game then he really isn't the right man for the job.

The Liverpool and City games are about more than the result, its about pride and putting in a performance as well. These are tough games but we have to get something out of both games, either points or a performance that shows that Moyes can get the team playing against the best.

As if he can't get the team to put 100% in against Liverpool and City then he hasn't got the ability to motivate them at all.

Hopefully we will be sitting here in 10 days time looking back on the week that David Moyes turned it all around with three great results.

Sadly if I'm honest with myself I can see us being out fought and possibly humilliated against Liverpool, who always find that extra 10% against us.
With Rafael probably out that means we will likely have to play Smalling at RB with Vidic coming in to play at CB, and depending on Jones fitness maybe Rio along side him. That means we'll have to play a defence that can't step up due to a lack of pace in the centre that will give Suarez the room to wreak havok especially against Smalling at RB. Also our best midfield pairing are Carrick and Fellaini with neither having much pace, Along with Evra at LB we will have a distinct lack of pace in the defensive and midfield thirds of the pitch. Being at Old Trafford we will be forced to attack which will leave us wide open at the back for a quick counter attack from Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling. It could be a spanking if we get our tactics wrong.

Olympiakos have shown us that they don't fear us and they will come to Old Trafford set up to defend and hit us on the counter, now with our lack of pace at the back and our need to score 3 we will effectively play straight into their hands, all they need in one away goal and the tie will be beyond us. If it happens early then I fully expect to see our players heads go down and maybe even a silly sending off.

Then we will come up against a City side who want to push on for the title and have every chance to win it, they would love to hit the final nail in our coffin along the way, and we could be coming up against them dejected on the back of two humilliating loses. Again this could lead to a big loss.

This of course is the worst case scenario and by no means is garenteed to happen, but in previous years it would be unthinkable that it could even happen, yet here we are now with it being a very real possiblity.

The big question is what will the board do if we have three big loses in a week against teams we shouldn't be losing to.

Shappy

I see that you are very positive today.

I have to disagree with you completely on your views about the game tomm. It suits their playing style like a glove when teams play high up the pitch because suarez and sturridge are at their best when they have a lot of room to run into behind defenders and us playing deeper counters one of their strengths. If anything they have struggled to create much against us in the previous 2 fixtures this year more than any other team.

I do agree Smalling at RB will get his underwear turned sideways by Suarez's trickery and foot speed and hope rafael is fit.

I see us winning tomm, winning against olympiakos but going out and most likely will beat or draw against city. So in short no defeats in the next 3.

Great post Shappy, I agree with this being the turning point for Moyes if and that's if he can do it.

I believe we will beat Liverpool, they may have a good set of attackers but so do we and I thinks it's about time we let it rip and go all out attacking. Also although our defence is slow and fairly weak, so are theirs! This Liverpool side is just in a good run of form with 1 world class player having the season of his life. We do have a better team than Liverpool, it's just if we can perform on the day to beat them.

I am confident in turning over Olympiakos with a strong 3-0 win. They're not going to be able to defend so easily with our attack constantly going at them, plus we're at home which is also an advantage.

Finally with City, as Kompany just got a red card I believe he will now miss the derby so that's a promising sign, but this match can go either way, we get hammered, or we put up a strong fight and the scoreline will be extremely tight.

I am hoping to be dancing around my house in 10 days time smiling about the last 3 wins!

Weggy

Are you sure company is suspended? I think Aguero is out and he has been a nightmare for us ever since he joined them.

GCU, cannot disagree more. By using a deeper defensive line, we set ourself up to stay deep and counter. Mata, Januzaj, Rooney and van Persie ( not to mention Carrick, Fellaini, Smalling and even Evra ) have a distinct lack of pace. By trying to counter their attacking speed, we would be setting ourselves up for a long game, in which we are very, very unlikely to score.

Suarez and Countinho are very comfortable in tight spaces, and they will score whetjer we're deep or playing a high line.

Also, if you look at it individually, Suarez and Sturridge are quick, but not the paciest players over long distances. Jones, Smalling and Evans all have the capacity ( with their long legs and stride ) to catch up to anyone bar maybe Sterling.

Liverpool will score. The only question is, can we outscore them? We might if we manage to play a possession based system, get Rooney, Mata and januzaj on the ball as often as we can. That's where our strength lies and it's time for moyes to concentrate on our strengths rather than the opposing teams'.

These next 3 games could well make or break Moyes.

Almost every time we've had to raise our game, we've failed and we now have to do so 3 times in 9 days.

Sadly, I just don't think we have a solid enough defence or midfield to see us through these next 3 games. I see us losing 1-2 or 1-3 to Liverpool, whose strikeforce will be at us like dogs from the first whistle.

I think we'll beat Olympiakos 2-1 or 3-1, and it won't be enough to push us through to the next round. Then, with our heads down, City will come to OT brimming with confidence and finish us off.

This opinion is based solely on what we've seen from Moyes and the team so far.

And Kompany has a one match ban since there was no violent intent. And they are playing Fulham before us, so he is available against us

Mick1

Let's agree to disagree.

Try preaching the high line to the likes of arsenal and spurs. It was like kids in a candy store for the Liverpool front men.

I recommend you watch the Chelsea game mate and see how mourinho who likes to play higher even played deeper and took all that space away from them to run into and deprived them of their speed advantage.

This is not game theory and reality is you just don't give them space to run behind your defenders into acres of space and keep things in front of you. Watch their highlight reel and see how they score their goals.

Their biggest weapon is pace.

Liverpool are quick upfront and have a number of players that look to break and make runs in behind.
They counter attack quickly and also look for the long ball over the top.
If we play a high line tomorrow Liverpool will get in behind

Jred

Thank you. They have turned teams over when they are naive enough to play high up and allow Suarez and co to make simple diagonal runs to either balls over the top or through.

Whilst everyone is suddenly a BR fan what they do is quite simple and nothing out of the extraordinary. A world class striker in the form of his life and some serious team speed to break and counter.


Unfortunately, it is fashionable to think we are negative for playing deeper where the reality is we will have a very ugly scoreline if we tried to play higher and they will cut us open with the likes of carrick and fellaini who are not fast enough.

We are an ugly team to watch when back peddling against counter attacking teams with pace and have conceded so many goals that way this year.

15 Mar 2014 18:15:24
This is very true, but with quick thinking players with quick feet like Suarez and Coutinho they can still cut through us. So they are not as one dimensional as some people would like to think.

But the real problem is that we are the home team, and we need to attack them so they will have space to play in either in behind or infront of our defence. How confident are you of our defenders no making a mistake when they have Suarez Strurridge or Sterling running at them.

But also if our defence is sitting deep then our midfield will have to sit deep, then our attack will either be cut off or sit deep. Now Mata and RvP are hardly blessed with pace so if they are made to play deep then it doesn't suit them.

There are always two sides to look at with every tactic, how it effects the opposition and how it effects your team.

Playing a high line is crazy talk. I think we may see Welbeck play tomorrow, don't know why, just a hunch.

Shappy

I agree they can still score with their front 5 as but easier to defend if you keep things in front of you and close them down.

However if we try and push up the field between, Gerrard and Coutinho, they will open us up with their passing and get behind us. Smalling and jones have decent pace but no way they can stay with sturridge and questionable they can stick with Suarez.

Jred, GCU and Syd,

Liverpool are dangerous on the counter. Very dangerous. Suarez is quick, so is Sturridge and Sterling is rapid.

They can cut teams open when they play a high line.

Unfortunately, when you have 2 strikers in the form of their lives, they are likely to score anyhow.

If we play a deep defensive line, we will need to play a team capable of sitting back and hitting them on the counter. Since we don't have Ronaldo and Bale ( Valencia and Young are our " lightning quick " wingers ) I say we're pretty unlikely to trouble them on the counter.

Let's look at the pros and cons of both systems.

If we play deep to protect our defense, we pretty much have no attacking impetuous. Mata, Januzaj, Rooney and Van Persie will struggle to get out of our own half. Valencia, Young and Welbeck are more suited to play in such a formation but since they're quite mediocre, it makes no sense.

Also, playing deep will allow Liverpool to run at us. Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho and Sterling running at us will very likely result in a couple of goals for them. Can we score more with a defensive formation?

If we sit deep, it will be a case of defense versus attack. Now, when you are facing the league's most in form attack, with the best strike force, nothing good can come off it.

If we play a higher line, with 2 of Evans, Smalling and Jones, we will have more possession in their half, thus allowing Mata, Januzaj, Rooney and Van Persie to have time on the ball, which is practically the only way for us to score goals.

Our defenders have the pace to keep up with Suarez on co on the counter, and while we are very, very likely to concede goals, at least we stand a chance of scoring ourselves.

To play a defensive set up with Mata, Januzaj and Van Persie in the starting lineup is as tactically naive as you can think.

We need to focus on ourselves, not on Liverpool's. Our attack is every bit as good as theirs ( I would even say it's superior if not for this season's form ) and our only shot of coming with anything out of this game is to get our best players on the ball.

If Moyes sets up the team to play in a defensive style and we lose the game, he will get murdered on here. He would have lacked courage and belief in the team and will lose a lot of the 50-50 supporters. If we go out all guns blazing and running at them, even if we lose, it would mean the best team won, and Moyes is at least trying to keep up with the traditions.

IMO, this season is gone. All we can do is improve our performances, and Moyes has to show he does not lack character and courage. He needs to show us he's trying to set us up to play a certain style, with a clear philosophy. Results are arguably irrelevant atm and we need to play better, give the fans something to cheer for.

Defensive football will never go down well for us. We will not be okay with it. I would much, much rather prefer a 5-4 loss than a dire 1-0 one under current circumstances . At least we'd look like we're trying to attack

Mick1

Playing a deeper set up does not mean we are being negative but rather playing to what suits our personnel best.

What you are advocating is very bravado and what happens when they pick us off like they have with other teams and score 4 or 5. I know what the supporters and people here would say and I assure you they will not be applauding DM for his positive approach :)

There is only one winner in that scenario and we will not outscore them. Contrary to what most believe it might prove to be a very tight and low scoring game and I reckon if people can look past the bleached teeth of Rogers, he is petrified of losing to us and will invite us to come on to them and try and hit us on the counter and no need to throw too many players forward and give him what he wants.

cheers mate going to bed. work day for us over here tomm.

15 Mar 2014 09:38:07
Just read that Rafael might be out with an injury. If true I think Smalling is a terrible right back and Suarez will have a field day with him and that might force moyes to field Valencia as extra cover for the right side.

We will struggle with Smalling playing as right back both offensively and defensively. I was hoping to see him and Vidic in the cb for the game tomm but that now looks highly unlikely.

On another rote, rafael seems to miss so many games every year and we need a proper right back as a starter or back up.

Maybe jones might play there.

15 Mar 2014 10:44:07
I would sign Martin Montoya or Davide Santon as well as LB in the summer as both can cover both full back positions and would add depth to our full back positions.

Santon obviously has the Prem experience but Montoya is available on a free transfer leaving funds available for other signings.

In an ideal world we would sign Ricardo Rodriguez/Luke Shaw or Alex Sandro for LB, either Benatia or Garay as an experianced CB and Montoya for quality cover/competition for the full back positions. That would totally sort our defence out for years to come.

Supasub

Jones is not very good there either. Neither jones or smelling are any good going forward as wing backs and their crossing, passing is poor and leaves us exposed and unbalanced in the attacking 3rd.

Shappy

I like the Montoya idea especially as a free. No disrespect to jones or smalling but both look like fish out of water on the right side.

The Salzburg guy hinteregger is also a good cb. Watched him the other night against basel and he was very solid.

15 Mar 2014 12:47:48
Shahram, Martin Hinteregger looks a good prospect but I feel we need someone experienced. If we were going to go for a younger prospect at CB then I'd go for Fabian Schar, Mateo Musacchio or Mattias Ginter as an outside chance.

But with Smalling, Jones and Michael Keane all be young, and with Rio and Vidic moving on in the summer I feel we need some experience, especially in the big european games.

Thats why Benatia or Garay would be top of my list.

{Ed002's Note - Hinteregger and Ginter have both been looked at.}

MU will want to sign a young CB with potential and an experienced CB.

Shappy

I agree we need a mature word class and reliable in terms of not being jury prone CB. I think it will be a massive mistake to go into next year with smalling, evans, jones, keane as none are genuinely great but decent/good with potential to be very good/great. It is impossible to win big trophies with a flimsy back 4 no matter how good the attacking players are.


Watching what could have been a great season for City petering out and I wonder where they would be had they signed Mangala in January given how poor Dimichelis has been and cost them the Fa cup and CL.

Montoya Garay and Shaw two young fullbacks that can play a high line and a strong experienced defender to guide them along

Sydney

You might be spot on and we might see one of each coming in.

Shahram, Moyes will be keeping a close eye on Keane's development at Blackburn until May, but I suspect we may dip into the market for a Ginter. We could have done with Vidic staying one more year whilst Keane goes to an EPL club on loan.

15 Mar 2014 14:26:42
Imo with Evans, Smalling and Jones at the club already if we see two CBs join then it will be the end of Micheal Keane which will be a shame as he looks very promising.

Shappy, Keane has a massive future ahead at MU. The club have big plans for him. It's a shame he isn't 1-2 season further ahead.

15 Mar 2014 15:34:29
I hope so Syd as he looks very promising. My only concern is I feel he is a season or so away from breaking through. If we say two years away then at that time we will have a 27yo Evans, a 25yo Smalling, a 24yo Jones and whoever else we buy. that's why I can see us only signing one CB or Keane will have 5 players ahead of him in the pecking order.

Long term I can see a CB partnership of Jones/Keane with one of Smalling or Evans being the main cover and the other one leaving and whoever else we buy this summer being first choice for the next 2/3 years and then being phased out with the Jones/Keane partneship coming to the fore.

The only way I see us signing 2 CB this summer is if Moyes feels both Smalling and Evans have no long term future at the club. Even then I would expect us to only sign one CB this summer and maybe another next summer as we need to focus our spend on the whole team not just one position.

I would expect us to sign two full backs, one centre back, two midfielders then either one creative talent and a striker or two creative talents and no striker.

Thats 7 players coming into the squad. Maybe 6 if we can get one of Zaha or Lingard to step up.

Personally i'd like to see Benatia, Montoya, Ricardo Rodriguez, Gundogan, Carvalho, Reus.

With Keane it's not a case of if, but when he will be ready. On the ball he is a fantastic player and at the very worst will be a MU squad player. At the moment he is lacking experienced game time, something he will get over the next 18 months out on loan. The club have got the timing all wrong on this one, I think they expected they could get one more year out of Vidic whilst Keane developed further.

They expected Vidic to stay another year he leaving ahead of sceduel has left us a little light at the back

15 Mar 2014 01:14:30
Hey Guys
I was in my Chinese take away tonight and I was talking about the match on Sunday. I was interrupted by a scottish man who told me that his Nephew has just signed for Utd after many top EPL teams were chasing his Signature.

The 16yr old Scottish Goalkeeper, A giant at 6ft 7in named Robby McCrorie had been playing for Rangers. i'm assured this player is an excellent Goalkeeper for his age.

CTR - i'm really happy your little man has turned a corner and wish him well x. My taughts are with you and your family pal.

God Bless
Reddevilfan