Manchester United Banter Archive June 16 2014

 

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16 Jun 2014 23:19:55
I was very impressed by that Blind fella the other night for Holland. Great vision.

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{Ed007's Note - Boom boom!!}

I'm here all night. Tell your friends to follow my work on manchesterunitedrumours dot co dot uk.

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16 Jun 2014 22:47:14
the Ander Herrera rumours are back with grim inevitability

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16 Jun 2014 22:34:17
Interested to see if the leaked premier league fixtures are correct if so United away to Villa first game of the season

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16 Jun 2014 19:42:13
Must admit, I don't watch a great deal of Dutch football. Have seen the odd game but not enough to make a full appraisal. Would Blind be a good option for left back? I thought he was a defensive midfielders. Saying that, his performance against Spain was very expensive.

If anyone in here watches a lot of Dutch football then any insight would be great to read.

Thanks guys.

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No. He's far too slow for the premier league, he's the worst of the Dutch players linked with us.

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Fresh
After all of your posts on every dutch player we should sign i'm amazed at that post

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How much did his performance against Spain end up costing?

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Jred, I thought I would never say this but, I miss KLOOT

Deeps.

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Danny, I heard Ed Woodward sent lawyers/3rd party to pay for that cost. Did you hear that rumour?

Deeps.

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My old man had a good game last week perhaps we should sign him, although he is 75

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Lol, I know what you mean

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Deeps, I heard that Woodward was immediately on the blower to van Gaal ordering him to negotiate a deal for Blind with the Dutch national coach. Van Gaal has been sat in front of a mirror since Friday night trying to hammer out an agreement.

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{Ed007's Note - I've got the number of a place that does 3 blinds for the price of 2.}

Damny lol

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There's a fella doing buy one get one free on windows in Bolton, so if we pool our resources we should have the makings of a house. I'll get on the phone to Woodward, he'll know what to do.

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Danny, I heard that rumour too. LvG decided, on reflection, not to make an offer. We already have 2 seemingly blind left backs.

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He diesnt play left back for Ajax anymore. he is more of a CDM for them.

as mentioned his lack of pace would be a definate issue

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16 Jun 2014 15:28:27
Well it's certainly been an interesting couple of days, and I'm glad we have the world cup to distract us some what from what is a frustrating time being a United supporter. But the fact that we are hearing very little from the club for me is a good sign, under Sir Alex we never really knew what was happening until quite late into the process with a few exceptions(RvN, Hargreaves ect). Then under Moyes all we heard was big talk and bluster only to end up with nothing. It appears that certain people at the club have learned some valuable lessons. The fact that Woodward isn't talking to the press suggests he is spending his time actually doing his job rather than basking in the limelight.

Moving on I thought it was very interesting watching the England game, it seems that Roy is slowly pushing Rooney out of the picture, ironically what Sir Alex was doing in his last season at the club. Have they realised something about Wayne and are looking to the future which seemingly is one without Wayne? Gerrard is still afforded the chance to play in his best position even though he he older than Rooney and yet Wayne is shunted out wide. Hodgson obviously believes that Sturridge is a better option as a striker and Sterling better in the No.10 role. That is the telling thing, a young teenager who has only a couple of appearances at international level is forcing Wayne out of his favoured position. My belief is if Roy has the balls to push Wayne out of his favoured position then van Gaal will have no issue dropping him all together.

People have suggested Wayne could play in a wider role for us under LvG but judging on his performance for England against Candevra and Darmian(good players but not world class) then he hasn't got the pace or the positional sense to play such a role. In his defence though playing on the left of a 433 is a less demanding role defensively than playing on the left of a 4231, but still he was shockingly poor.

I also think his lack of positional sense, defensive tracking and his poor decision making also rule him out of a role as a midfielder, yes Scholes dropped back into a midfield role but he was a much more intelligent footballer.

This isn't to slate Rooney, he has been a very important player for us. But to look at the reality of the situation, at 18/19 he was the more naturally gifted player between him and Ronaldo. Had he worked as hard on his game as Ronaldo has and had he dedicated himself to football in the same way then how good could he be now? But he is a very good striker but not world class, he is a good No.10 but not world class, he is a poor wide player and he can be decent enough in midfield if he works on his game but he will not be world class in any of those positions. He was world class as a striker a couple of seasons ago but that time has past, he is clearly on the decline and anyone will tell you that you don't build your team around a declining player.

So his best position is as a striker, but he is clearly second place to RvP, so he can either settle to be RvP's back up and a squad player used to cover injuries or he can move on and become an important player at a lesser club. Which do you think he would rather choose?


Interesting point, LvG has changed the formation of the Dutch national team because of the players he has available to him. Robben being his only world class wide player, Sneijder being more of a true No.10 rather than the more rounded and better defensively type of attacking midfielder he normally prefers, and the fact that he can't have pick Strootman for his midfield as he would like. Well I would suggest that our current squad fit better into this 352(which tends to be more of a 3412) than his preferred 433. We don't have any wide players who really fit his ideal of a wide player other than Januzaj, we don't have any attacking midfielders but several No.10's(Mata, Kagawa), and we don't have any midfielders of the required quality so to play with 3 midfielders would require us to sign at least 3 midfielders who fit into the 433 formation. Plus the player he would like to build the midfield around(Strootman) is injured and won't be able to sign.

So could we see him introduce a 352 type formation to start with then slowly evolve that into his preferred 433 over time when he is able to sign the right players and build the squad in his own image? To play the 433 formation he would like would require us to sign 3 midfielders and 2 wide players as well as a centre back and a left back which is needed. That's 7 players at least and that would leave very little quality to cover in case of injuries or suspensions. Yet he could implement a 352 formation with maybe 4/5 signings. Ed002 did say it would take 3 windows to rebuild the squad, which would mean that we will probably either have to play 433 with limited cover or find another formation which more fits the squad as it is and allows the squad to evolve into the formation LvG wants.

Also we have some reports coming out that we may have agreed a deal with Vermaelen, imo this would be a very good deal. He is Prem proven, experianced, has been taught to play football in the Ajax way which is how LvG likes his players to play, he prefers to play on the left hand side of defence where as all our current CB's prefer to play on the right, he is a leader as shown with him getting the Arsenal captaincy only a couple of years after joining the club and with our current lack of leaders a leader in defence is important and he would come cheaply enough for us to focus our money on other players.

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Good post, but TV described as a "very good deal" is like describing Gary Lewin as a very good bottle squasher. If TV is a very good deal, then what would Mats Hummels be?

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Syd
Come on pal u know the script any player we are linked with would be a very good signing .

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Personally I don't see why the prospect of paying Arsenal's injury prone third choice cb £100,000 a week is anything to get excited over. But I guess people are so desperate for us to sign anyone that it doesn't matter what calibre of player we're targeting.

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"He was shockingly poor", Did you watch the match?

Deeps.

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Jred, I said if we were linked to Titus Bramble some on here would put a positive spin on things. Don't get me wrong he wouldn't be a bad signing for say £7m or so, but we need players like Hummels.

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I think I wll be off this website for a bit, till the Rooney witch hunt is over. The English media and fans are strange.

Deeps.

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Syd
7m for bramble seems high ;)

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Deeps, I would play Rooney as a number 10. Sterling and Welbeck wings and Sturridge as striker.

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Syd what is it like living in your dream world?

Hummels is a fantasy, and if you think he would only cost a fraction more than Vermaelen than your deluded my friend.

Vermaelen has been touted at a fee of around 10m on wages of 100k per week.

Hummels would easily cost 30m and would be on wages of around 140-160k per week. If you said that's wages of around 150k on average then over 5 years that's 39m, plus the 30m he would cost in the first place then it will cost 69m over 5 years.

Vermaelen would cost around 26m in wages over 5 years, and 10m fee, so 36m.

Or if you will around half as much as Hummels.

So in terms of money then yes a Prem proven player who is a leader and experienced for half the cost of a player untested and in the Prem could be considered a good deal.

People seem to be concerned because he isn't first choice for Arsenal yet they would take Pedro or Fabregas or Kroos who aren't first choice for their respective teams.

Vermaelen isn't first choice for Arsenal because he got injured then while he was out injured Mertesacker and Koscielny stuck up a good partnership and considering how shaky Arsenal can be at the back Arsene didn't want to break up a CB pairing that was working well. Plus Vermaelen was working his way back to fitness and wasn't garenteed not to break down while on the come back trail. To drop one of your CB's who has been playing well for a player who could have a further injury set back is stupid, you risk upsetting the apple cart for no reason.

Vermaelen showed in his first 18 months/2 years at Arsenal that he is one of the best CB's in the league, if we can sign him for under 10m and for wages of around 100k(which let's be fair is pretty reasonable in todays market) then that will represent good value.

Just because he isn't flavour of the month doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good signing. We signed Veron from a top european league and he never worked out as we hoped, also the last player we signed from Dortmund didn't turn out how we hoped. So to gamble twice as much money on Hummels as it would cost for Vermaelen isn't garenteed to work out in our favour.

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Jred, that would be "cheap" to some of the lads on here. Watching Hummels now. He's a beast and he has the ball control of a midfielder. We should be buying his dad some escorts and throwing him an orgy :)

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Re Roy pushing Rooney out wide; I think it's not a case of Roy thinking Sturridge is a better striker but that Rooney is more adaptable and thus if he has to push one of the two out wide - Rooney will do a better job there than Sturridge.

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Shappy
I think the issue is giving a 28/29 old cb who has been out injured 10 times over The last 2 year (2 knee and 2 ankle )while showing a dip in form a 100k a week 5 year contract

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Jred

I doubt it and it is just the papers

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Great post Shappy. I can personally see Rooney sitting on the bench for £300k/w instead of going somewhere for less money and more game time. He will not be technically good enough for van Gaal in comparison to Mata and Kagawa. I think our best formation would be the 4-3-1-2 with Mata in the hole, RVP up top with Januzaj playing the Robben role (maybe Welbeck too). But whatever formation you look at, we always have a problem whether it be a lack of midfield quality, or width.

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16 Jun 2014 20:14:28
Deeps I agree with you that their appears to be a witch hunt on Rooney.
I think for England he should play as 9 or 10 ahead of any other however if the option of 9 or 10 is not there and Roy fancies others more at this time then its best to leave him out and look to bring him on in his best position for 20 / 30 mins. In 10 years time we will look back and see that rooney will have more england goals than sturridge welbeck llalana and lambert combined. He will play anywhere and will give 100% his stats were good and he covered more distance than the 4 england players who suffered from cramp so he is fit and his attitude is good in terms of workrate, he made a goal all while playing out of poition.
However for united RVP is a better no 9 and mata and kagawa are better at 10 so he is not 1st choice here so given his profile and ego he won't be happy so its either cash in now or he will be no more than a squad player. I think when he realises he is not 1st choice in his preferred position he will want away. Pity.

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Gcu
Its just for arguments sake

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I love the rooney debates at the moment. I guess if he is genuinely past his peak, it only speaks to our incompetence at the club for rewarding him with a massive new contract.

The other side of the argument is that he is at the peak of his career, we shall find out soon when LVG takes over and see how he is utilised and what is his contribution level.

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Contract was needed for a decent transfer fee and probably to secure some commercial deals. I think money is ruling head at Utd, but LVG should sort that SAF style.

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Rooney was awarded a massive new contract because it was the wish of the chosen one who could not see what SAF felt was the case, that Rooney was showing signs of declining standards. The club supported then the manager because to not have done would have fatally undermined him and his position too early for them and I think they were in a corner but felt it also retained a better price for him.

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Shappy, it's not a "fantasy world", if we pay top dollar, we will get Hummels.

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What if Hummels doesn't want to come? Does he want CL football? I think if anyone is in a fantasy it seems to be you Syd mate.

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Red man
Whats happened?
You where one of the best posters on here imo .
Now every post is aimed at moyes no matter what the subject

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Jred

The point I responded to was about why Rooney was given a big new contract. On what basis do you think he was given one?

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Shappy, when has Vermaelen EVER been a leader? When has he ever been a leader for Arsenal or Belgium? You mean when he's warming the bench? Or when our attackers ran rings around him when he was in his prime? Vermaelen would be a decent signing, but a disappointing one when we could get Hummels.

And where an earth did you get your numbers from? Why would TV be on £100k a week and Hummels on £150k? Hummels would be on less than half of what TV is getting now. I cannot see how you would expect TV to get £100k a week with Hummels getting £150k a week? Why? Did Kagawa join on £150k a week?

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Fresh,

I think it is a litte precious of you blaming Syd of fantasizing transfer targets. You have posted here about every player we have been linked with. You also thought Ronaldo was coming back "home".

Deeps.

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LOL Fresh, that's the pot calling the kettle black :)

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Incredible Red Man, I am lost for words. I can understand trying to score on an argument but this .

Deeps.

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16 Jun 2014 21:21:31
Syd, if Hummels has offers from us and Barca then he will choose to move to Spain. Also with Lewandowski and possibly Reus leaving this year I can't see Dortmund being too kean to sell.

How much money should we spend? Would you be happy if we had to pay Dortmund 50m to sell him? What if he will only sign if he gets wages of 250k per week? Would you still want him then? Like I said this isn't a fantasy world where you just buy a player for the price his club want and give him anything he wants in his contract.

We live in the real world, and in the real world there are clubs who will offer more money, there are other parts of the world that players would rather live, there are teams competing at the highest level with a real chance of winning titles and cups.

Whether we want to admit it or not there will be competition from other top clubs for the best players in the world and they can all offer things that we can't. That is the situation and we have to deal with it.

The rebuild may take longer than people realise, and we need to buy the core squad players to play the way LvG wants, then he can get those players to get us back into the UCL, after that we can compete for the best players in the world to take us up the next level.

Jred, I doubt Vermaelen would get a 5 year contract, probably more like 3 years with an option for a fouth.

Deeps, there is no witch hunt from me, just a genuine point of view on a player who I feel has his best days behind him. And if you listen to Paul Scholes and you believe Sir Alex was prepared to move Rooney on then maybe i'm not the only person who believes it.

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Right you lot, back to your rooms. You can come out when you stop arguing

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Red man
I would of thought there was many aspects that the club and board took in to account when giving rooney a contract both football and commercial .
How much would moyes be involved in the money aspect, i'm not sure.
Did he lobby to give him a massive contract, again I don't know.
Or was he just asked if rooney was part of his long term plans and then left it to the club to decide what rooney was worth to them?

When woodward gave the end of season results it was confirmed rooneys basic salary had not increased.

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Deeps

Not with you?

GCU talked about the incompetence of the club giving Rooney a massive new contract and I passed my opinion on why I felt he had been given one. I didn't feel the club had been incompetent.

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Why would BvB want £50m? Why would MH want £250k a week? That is all fantasy. Did BvB want £50m for Kagawa? Did Kagawa want £250k a week?

MU have been having talks with BvB. There wouldn't be talks if they were unwilling to sell. There wouldn't be talks if Hummels wasn't interested in a move.

I guess LvG and the MU hierarchy are not living in the "real world" like Shappy is then or they wouldn't have tried to negotiate a deal for Hummels. My bad.

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Jred

Agree on those points but the amount of money is irrelevant

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16 Jun 2014 23:16:05
Syd I wasn't awear that Kagawa and Hummels were the same person? Is it not possible that Kagawa only wanted to move to us? Is it not possible that Dortmund are willing to talk to us to play us and Barca off against each other?

You have such a simplistic way of looking at things, with both Luke Shaw and Mats Hummels you have said many times its just about offering enough money. But it isn't. Money is a big factor but so are many other things to many different people. Some times you seem to look at things with your Man Utd specs on. Just because you would do anything for the club that doesn't mean all these players will.

Also how do you KNOW that the club are in talks with Dortmund, and how do you KNOW that its over Hummels? Fact is you don't, your just like the rest of us trawling over report after report trying to find some clarity in the muddest of bogs that is football transfers. 99.9% of everything is bulls**t, and the ones that get it right are more luck than judgement. Its all just Chinese whispers mate.

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16 Jun 2014 23:20:35
Fresh saying that someone else is in a fantasy world is my favourite post of the summer bar none. Close the competition we have ourselves a winner.

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There's no confirmation from anyone that we are trying to sign Shaw, but it's happening. Why are you assuming that BvB want £50m for Hummels? Why are you assuming that Hummels will want £150K A week? It's clearly not me who's in a fantasy world.

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17 Jun 2014 14:18:12
I'm not saying that he would cost 50m or that he would want 150k per week, i'm replying to your idea that we should just pay what it takes. Would you be prepared to spend 50m on Hummels if that's what it would take to sign him. After all Luiz just went to PSG for 50m and Hummels is a much better CB than him so is 50m that unrealistic?

Hummels may well be on a small contract atm, but maybe he would only be willing to sign for a club with no UCL football if he was being paid 150k per week.

As we aren't involved with any potential deal how do we know? We don't, so what is the most you would be happy for the club to spend on him? Because i'm sure you wouldn't be happy if we just sent Dortmund a blank cheque.

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Shappy, aren't you fed up of wanting Ribeye steak, but ending up with economy burger? Aren't you fed up of watching our rivals end up with the better players? LvG wants Hummels, He wanted Cesc. He wanted Mueller and Robben. He isn't getting his targets and a club the size of MU should be doing better in the transfer market. We should be backing the manager and due to us being out of the UCL we should be doing all we can financially to get these players.

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17 Jun 2014 16:01:51
There is a big difference between being fed up with a situation and the situation actually changing.

Just because we want to see the club flex its financial muscle doesn't mean it will.

Atm no one knows what van Gaal wants, and until he speaks out about it none of us will. van Gaal isn't the kind of man to be fobbed off by a penny pinching chairman, if he isn't happy about it he will say, if he is happy then he will remain quiet.

There for unless he says otherwise i'll assume that things are going as he wants. He will want the club to sign the players he wants not the players we want.

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Then you are being naive Shappy. Of course we know who LvG wants. We wouldn't be trying to negotiate deals for them otherwise. LvG clearly wanted Robben, Mueller, Hummels, Cesc & Kroos. Hence the talks between us and their clubs and agents. You are being naive, our prime targets are dropping like flies.

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18 Jun 2014 08:42:10
According to who Syd mate? Everything thing is conjecture until there is some definitive proof from one of the sides involved. Even then how often has an agent or a club said we are interested in one of their players to then find that they were just name dropping us to get a better deal from sonewhere else.

I know one of the Eds has said we have had interest in one or two of those players, but Manchester United have an interest in hundreds of players every single year, very few of them get to the stage where we make an offer for them. So to say they are dropping like flies would only be accurate if we have made actual offers for them.

And if you want to talk about naivity then you my friend are naive to the point of delusion if you truely believe any of the key players from Bayern or Barca would be prepared to move from a club with real title ambitions to a club in transition with an un tested manager in the premier league who has a history of falling out with key players. When they could earn just as much if they moved to another club who are in the UCL.

I don't like all this stupid talk of just pay them more than could earn anywhere else. I thought after all the slagging off everyone has done on here of clubs such as City, Chelsea, PSG and Monaco that our fans obviously have more integrety but no alas it seems it may have just be jelousy after all.

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Shappy, no one has ever had a problem with clubs spending money, all clubs spend money. Without that process there wouldn't be new signings for any club. The issue people have had with Monaco, City, Chelsea of old, PSG etc is not spending money, but spending money that they haven't earned. Spending money not generated by their clubs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with spending big or paying over the odds when you are using your own cash to do it.

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16 Jun 2014 13:02:40
Last April kolasinac said he had an offer from united, does any of the eds know anything about this please

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{Ed002's Note - There was no offer.}

16 Jun 2014 13:41:06
We after watching Nani, Anderson and Cleverley squander opportunity after opportunity we now have prejudiced opinions(justified or unjustified) about them which will not change easily.

But let us not forget LvG probably has a clean slate for them and might give them a chance to prove themselves one last time. So let's not write them off just yet, let's wait for LvG to form his opinion because that's the opinion which matters the most.

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I want Anderson & Clevs to be given a chance Mumbai Boy. The problem is Moyes had the same concept last summer, of giving everyone a fair crack. The thing is he didn't as far as I'm concerned, he needed to get his own house in order before getting the recent failures back into the mix, he risked too much too soon and didn't really know what he was doing. LVG won't do that, but I hope Anderson and Cleverly get a chance in a mobile midfield 3. If Carrick starts then it will be more of the same I'm afraid.

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I actually rate Clevs, not as much as Syd, but I think, if played further forward with similar players around him, he will not do too shabbily. His confidence is shot to pieces, as fans we have been guilty to a huge extent.

Deeps.

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Cleverley is certainly a better player than what we have witnessed over the past two seasons (last season especially), but I think he should have progressed better than he has done. Since his ankle got busted he has looked scared to get stuck in. He doesn't like pushing forward with the ball whereas when he was younger he did it all the time. No doubt LvG would make a decent squad player out of the lad, but we need proven quality in midfield this summer. Schweinsteiger for me would be a great signing. Cannot see BM selling both Schweinsteiger and Kroos mind.

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I think Clevs has suffered like others in our team due to a lack of mobility elsewhere. Clevs needs movement so he can fetch and carry, pass and move into space, our midfield and wide men are quite static and with the CB's not mobile our full backs have been caught whenever breaking. He he could be very effective in a midfield 3, him Anderson and a new world class playmaker will be very effective if we strengthen on the wings and left back this window.

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16 Jun 2014 20:30:33
Beast, Anderson has had enough chances
along with Nani, he couldn't even get himself up for it on loan.
His times up

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16 Jun 2014 12:34:46
Is it premature to think that LvG is able to turn things around for Utd when he arrives as genuinely believe his ability to address problems typically with the players' mentality which I think is most crucial part of our issue. I don't mean that we have top tier squad. But winning mentality and hunger is what we have missed out in the last season and I think with respect to that matter, Rooney has done so well.

Having looked at WC, I am also very pleased with displays of some of our players like RVP (I did also enjoy watching Welbeck and Evra's play), but on the other hand, display of some players like Kagawa was very disappointing and it maybe wise to let him go when he has value. Just like when we should've sold Hernandez, Ando, Nani.

Lastly, hoping for no injuries.

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The players didn't want to play for Moyes as he was very uninspiring and had no credentials. This is something that will immediately change under van Gaal I feel. Van Persie will lead the change. Any new editions he brings with him will also help. You can already see that he is more respected, players liek De Gea have come out and said how excited they are to start working with him.

As for Nani, Anderson and Hernandez. Nani is very much van Gaal's sort of player. Quick, skillfull and a goal threat, he will get a chance. Anderson, not so sure, he could be a good box to box player if he motivated and pushes himself. Hernandez will always be a fan favourite but won't get in the team ahead of Rooney and van Persie so I can't see him sticking around.

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I agree Fresh, but I think Nani's end product is nowhere near consisten enough for someone like LVG. I think he will get a chance, but it will be the same old story.

Hernandez should be moved on for his own sake as he isn't even starting for Mexico now - he needs games and just isn't quite Utd standard.

Anderson - LVG could be the SAF he never had.

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"The players didn't want to play for Moyes" -

Fresh, I think that is outrageous. Players are paid in a week what many don't earn in a year, I hope that puts in some perspective. They played for Manchester United and not Moyes United. Fergie of all people would have given them a right old bollocking for doing that. I can't believe that we are using it as an excuse. If LVG is successful in getting this lot to play much much better, I will infer two things. 1) Moyes was not good enough, 2) The players, all of them are a disgrace to this club for "playing" to a certain manager. You don't choose your boss.

Deeps.

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{Ed007's Note - Spot on, Deeps, a few players showed a complete lack of professionalism last season. I said it about RVP downing tools which upset a few people but I fully stand by that, the way he behaved was a disgrace but at least he's never asked the club for a pay eh? That's punishable by death according to some people on here.}

Perhaps it was a lack of motivation rather than not wanting to play for him. Let's face it, if you replace Sir Alex with someone who's won nothing, how would you feel? How did we feel when we heard?

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Gagus
So its ok for players not to really try if they don't rate the manager

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You cannot turn motivation on and off when you please. If the players weren't motivated by Moyes (and why would they be?), it's hardly surprising many struggled to raise their game last season. Imagine losing SAF and him being replaced by a manager that has never won anything in his career? Imagine being told what to do by someone who hasn't won anything, someone who has no right being a manager of MU. Then goes and sits Ferdinand and Vidic down showing them clips of Phil Jagielka and Distin. Moyes was never going to work. You need to have the player's respect to get the best out of them, he never had their respect. Of course the players should have done their best for the club, but like I said it's hard to get motivated playing under a manager that you do not want to play for. Look at Rooney the season before, he wanted to be the main man playing as a striker, SAF wants him to move to midfield, he doesn't want to and he has an abysmal season. His worst for the club. We need a manager that gets respect, a manager that will be the boss and a manager that can keep his team happy. LvG will get respect, he will certainly be the boss and he will keep our best player happy. Will he keep everyone happy? I doubt it, but then they will be gone before this manager is sacked.

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Bond - There is a mob out there, and criticizing Robin is considered heresy ;) . He is a fantastic player, but his lost boy persona last season was an absolute sham. All these Robin/LVG man love posts on here make me laugh. Yes, Rooney is no saint, far from it, but I know who I would prefer - Someone who has spent 10 seasons with the club or someone who has spent 2 or shall I say effectively 1. That said, Van Persie is an excellent player and I hope he performs superbly next season. He will never ever be a legend for me though. Come to think of it, it has always happened with Rooney - First Ronaldo then Tevez then Berba and now RVP. His own fans have been on his case, giving him grief. They forget that while the others are gone. Rooney is still here. Jred puts it excellently, people will ever truely know how good Wazza is once he is gone.

Deeps.

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Syd
The suggestion is rvp faked injury and didn't want to play.
Now i'm not going to get in to a debate about whether or not rvp was injured but the fact that some think it was ok if he wasnt amazes me .

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Gagus, How you and I felt when Moyes was appointed does not matter. We are not paid to support this football club. The individuals in question are paid to play football for the club. I can imagine the lack of motivation playing for the biggest club in the world(apparently) and raking in amounts that can pay off my mortgage in one swipe.

Deeps.

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Jred, if RvP did "pretend" to be injured, then that would be disgraceful. However he took a very serious bang to the knee after scoring a hat-trick and we all seen it with our own eyes. Perhaps he wanted to rest it longer than Moyes thought necessary so he didn't risk a recurrence and then miss the WC? I really don't know, but I find it hard to believe that he would fake injury. If he did though then like I said that is disgraceful.

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{Ed007's Note - I don't think he was injured or even faked it, I think the injury was fabricated by both parties to cover the fact he was acting like a spoilt brat who had downed tools. His loyalty should have been to the the club who pay him thousands of £s a week, his teammates and the fans, it's nothing to do with Man Utd if he is fit for the WC, would he have missed a CL or FA Cup final to make sure he was fit for the WC? Saying that is questioning his priorities Syd, and if his priority isn't Man Utd over everything else, he simply shouldn't be here.}

16 Jun 2014 18:05:51
"You cannot turn motivation on and off when you please"

Sorry, Syd, but that's a cop out.

Most of us would give our left testicle to play professional football for any team, and get down on our knees every morning and give thanks for being so blessed as to be paid handsomely for doing something we love. It wouldn't matter if Mickey Mouse was managing the club.

I don't like a lot of my chiefs, but I do my job to the best of my ability, because I have a sense of self-respect and professional pride in my work. I'd say most on here are the same.

I love RVP as a player - truly world class, and I'm glad he's at Utd. But if it were true that he faked injuries, or just didn't fancy it, then I'm sorry, but that's unforgiveable.

Never mind short-changing the fans, he'd have helped cost a decent man his job. Not the sort of attitude I'd want in a Manchester United player. Just my opinion.

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Syd
Like I said I don't want to get in to it but when rvp was in holland around xmas the united physio team said he was fit to play

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Ah last seasons argument comes out again.

What they get paid is irrelevant, money doesn't motivate. They get well paid and that likely makes them happy but it doesn't make them motivated. Motivation also comes from far more than professional pride, it is more about respecting the leader and believing in what they are being asked to do. The players acted professionally as far as we could see but they didn't act as if motivated.
They clearly did not believe what they were doing and no amount of professional pride can make up for that.
Motivation is a vital part of the game and in many other areas, it is why there is significant training in it. SAF was not a brilliant tactician but he was a brilliant leader and motivator. That was the one of the main differences between him and his poorly selected successor.
The manager paid the price because leadership was clearly an issue, a lack of respect for the complete paucity in credibility at that level and that failed to motivate the players. If there were players not acting as professionally as they should have been then the manager should have dealt with it hard and it seemed obvious that he didn't. His team likely became even more demotivated after that because they probably felt they saw weakness in him, the manager then becomes fatally compromised and extremely difficult to pull things back unless is really tough. SAF would never have stood for that, yet I wonder if they gave Moyes a six year contract to counteract the players doubts, make them think he had time and they better toe the line. Well that didn't work either, people need to understand what leading and motivating is all about, Moyes had limited skill there but SAF was excellent. The players have some responsibility but the key was and always will be the lack of leadership because under SAF or LvG it just wouldn't happen and that is the point.

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Red man
So you have no issue IF rvp faked injury as it was moyes who was manager

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SK, I agree, but it's all footballers have known. They don't think it's a luxury to be playing in the EPL, they think they are doing a job and getting paid. Sad I know, but it's true.

Jred, I am not sure when RvP and Moyes had that huge falling out, but wasn't it around Xmas time? I really don't know so it's hard to comment on it. It would be disappointing if true though.

Red Man, I agree. Moyes was always going to be a disaster. LvG will be better and to be fair has got the job at the best possible time. He couldn't do no worse than Moyes, I couldn't do no worse than Moyes to be fair.

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16 Jun 2014 20:57:42
No that's not the point, Red Man. The point is, is it ever acceptable for a player to do that?

Don't turn this into a Moyes argument. It's about players, and their personal standards.

You're happy enough with LVG - what if a player did the same to him? Would that be acceptable? Or is it only acceptable when a manager you don't like is in charge.

You're letting your dislike of Moyes, cloud your view on player behaviour, and what is and isn't acceptable.

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Syd
So did they fall out because like bond has said rvp had downed tools?

Amazed people wouldn't have an issue with this .

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Jred

I was commenting on leadership and motivation. I would be disappointed if any player deliberately avoided playing but I go back to the leadership point and would want to understand how it got to that point.

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StevieK

I really don't want to go over old ground and really don't care about the ex manager as I have completed a full recovery following a difficult few months.
Like I said I would be disappointed at a player disrespecting authority but if a player did that to LvG the player would be out the door

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Red man
The same thing happened 4 year ago in wc year at arsenal

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I have no idea jred, let's be honest there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest RvP did refuse to play. Seems like an odd discussion to have with no evidence to back it up.

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Jred

I bet it would not have happened under SAF. I have seen SAF deal with situations where he has shifted top players, I recall Stam and that one hurt but if a player is sold the club will live on. If there is a situation that needs decisive leadership I would support whatever action is taken as long as justified. I also think there is too much focus on one situation in these posts, yet I can bet it was not the only one.

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Syd
The point is people don't seem to have an issue with it even when if it was true .
But if it was an other player they would be slated daily by the same people.
Bonds made the point before.

I also remember you making a big deal about rooney not really being injured with out much evidence to be fair

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But if he did then it's disappointing.

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16 Jun 2014 22:29:43
Red Man, there's only one of us bringing up Moyes in every post.

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I could have sworn you said you didn't want to get into a discussion Jred. Clearly you did. Also did anyone say it was okay if RvP refused to play? I didn't see anyone saying it was. This hasn't even made the media, we don't even know if he did this that's all I'm saying. It's difficult for people to have an opinion good or bad on something that's never even made a newspaper. But sure if it was true then of course it's disappointing. Like I have said repeatedly.

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{Ed007's Note - Syd I must admit you play the naive card like an absolute legend when needs must. :) Has everything you say as fact on here 'even made the media' or 'even made a newspaper', that's all I'm saying. Have you ever thought about a career in politics?}

17 Jun 2014 00:08:42
And if you enjoy what you do, motivation should come from within - it shouldn't need a good leader.

It's about being motivated to be the best you can be, and to do the best you can for those who idolise you.

If you need someone else to have to inspire that in you, then I would call it a character deficiency.

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Syd
As I keep saying its all ifs and buts.
But the double standards on this site is awful, its always been my main issue with some of the rubbish posted about rooney.

Bond is again spot on

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Like I keep saying, if true that is disgraceful. I really don't know what more I can say.

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Jred, what Rooney did the season before last was truly disgraceful. If Van Persie did the exact same last season, then that too is disgraceful. I don't see where there is any "double standards". I am hoping both Rooney and RvP have a good season next season. So far we have only seen glimpses of what they can do together, I think if both can stay fit next season, we could see them both having a great season together. Fingers crossed.

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16 Jun 2014 12:34:46
Is it premature to think that LvG is able to turn things around for Utd when he arrives as genuinely believe his ability to address problems typically with the players' mentality which I think is most crucial part of our issue. I don't mean that we have top tier squad. But winning mentality and hunger is what we have missed out in the last season and I think with respect to that matter, Rooney has done so well.

Having looked at WC, I am also very pleased with displays of some of our players like RVP (I did also enjoy watching Welbeck and Evra's play), but on the other hand, display of some players like Kagawa was very disappointing and it maybe wise to let him go when he has value. Just like when we should've sold Hernandez, Ando, Nani.

Lastly, hoping for no injuries.

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16 Jun 2014 11:50:52
If rumours are to be believed, we are close to a deal for Thomas Vermaelen. Would be an interesting signing, great start at Arsenal and on his day he is a fantastic defender who pitched in with his share of goals. Has struggled for games lately and when he has played he hasn't looked as assured. However with a year left on his contract he should come relatively cheap and with regular games could rediscover his form and be a very astute piece of business.

Ed002, have you heard anything about the legitimacy of these rumours at all?

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He was injured last season so it will be a gamble. Last thing we need is another Hargreaves.

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Could go either way.
Vermaelen of 2yrs ago or so, was a machine. Exactly the type of CB I like to see.

Vermaelen now, is a big risk.

I said, we need a new CB who, in a perfect world, would play every single league game for us if fit and would be our leader at the back.

We got linked with the likes of Miranda and Hummels for big fees, and now it's a low cost man o'glass.

He's just as injury-prone as our three current CBs. Having 4 injury prone CB's is not a good look, we could struggle to get a regular partnership and we saw what that can do last season. A settled defence is a must and you cannot guarantee that with 4 injury-prone (and error prone) lads.

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Worth the gamble, couple of years ago he was one of the best in the league. I really rate Koscielny but not Metesacker, so a fee of less than £12mil and a bit of prem experience plus proven leadership is a great acquisition for me at the back. This will hopefully go along eventually with a Hummels/Varane (I do hope Jones & Smaling lift their games though so we don't need another CB), but they have stalled somewhat.

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16 Jun 2014 09:55:43
Hi all,
Just wondering what is story with anderson. Last I heard he was not wanted by fiorentina. If we don't move him on what happens with squad numbers as mata has been given his no.8 shirt. Also wouldn't be terribly annoyed if he stayed. Maybe lvg will be the man to finally get the best out of him and few others (cleverly, nani). Not saying he's great or anyhthing just that there are others I would move on first.

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I agree. I think out of all of them Anderson deserves another chance in his preferred position with quality around him. He is my tip for key player next year if he figures in LVG's plans.

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16 Jun 2014 10:54:40
What about Bebe as well Beast?

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Haven't seen enough of him to have a worthwhile opinion, but somebody obviously saw something in him for us to spend what we did without the gaffer even seeing him. I hope all our flops turn good, but Nani should be moved on as well as Young as they are never going to be good enough.


Anderson needs quality & mobility around him to function and hopefully we will have that (If Carrick plays next season then it won't happen), as a midfield 2 he isn't suited either.

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Like Nani, he could potentially do some good thigns for us if LVG can get something out of him. I remember him having one brilliant season and then Fergie made him more deep lying when he is much better suited to box to box. If he comes back and does well then I won't complain.

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I think Ando and Bebe can be massive surprises for everyone next season. Both players' could absolutely thrive under Van Gaals guidance.

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16 Jun 2014 14:14:08
How many years running have we been saying 'this will be Anderson's year'?

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I think one last one for Anderon RedRosie, he didn't get a chance last year as far as I'm concerned. A manager that knows how to use him will be vital and I think LVG will do that.

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16 Jun 2014 16:42:32
I certainly hope you're right beast.

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Quality GDS, quality

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16 Jun 2014 23:24:14
AJH,

Thank you, I think me and you would have a cracking time if we went for a pint!

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16 Jun 2014 09:53:45
ED do you think Rooney being ready to play out of position under SAF has to some extent hindered his overall progress?

He has gone from being our talisman and star striker in 2009 to a player whose place isn't guaranteed in the England first 11. And it's not due to age.

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{Ed002's Note - I really have no view on the matter.}

Rooney was never ready to play out of position for SAF. That is part of the problem. Rooney is still a top notch player IMO, but there are much better strikers out there. Van Persie being one of them. Rooney has been fighting against moving to midfield for the past couple of seasons now. Rooney himself said that when he starts to slow down he will move to midfield, well he started slowing down years ago and still won't move to midfield. I think he expected it to come in his 30's, but he forgets that he has had a very long career already having burst onto the scene at 16/17. Look at Michael Owen, same happened to him, he had an early career therefore an early peak and then decline. It's nature, you cannot fight against aging no matter how much the woman try :)

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Yeah Rooney was a man before his time and somebody built like Rooney with obvious problems keeping fit it was always going to be tricky keeping that spark going after 27-28.

I bet Hodgson said you aren't starting up front but I think you can do a job on the left for me. Only an person would say no to their national manager, club manager is another matter as there are always other clubs to play for.

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Rooney in my opinion will be our second choice striker. He will rotate with Robin. Mata or Kagawa will share the number 10 role. Welbeck I think will get games as a wide forward and if he doesn't like it, he will be moved on. Rooney I don't think will like being benched a lot so I can quite easily see him moving on also.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Jose came with another bid for Rooney. He hasn't stopped talking about him and defending him from critics.

It is a typical Jose tactic. He knows he isn't getting the love at the club at the moment, so he will shower him with it.

Watch this space me thinks.

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16 Jun 2014 09:25:50
I've been really impressed with several left backs already. Obviously there is a long way to go, but Roco, Blind, Rodriguez all look tasty from the games I have seen.

Some of the big names we have been linked with over the past 12 months haven't been playing obviously, but some other ones look quality. I think if a deal hasn't been done already for Shaw we can now start throwing some names around and maybe bring down the price, certainly there are more options out there so I'm not panicking if we miss out on him - buyers market for left back, maybe this could be one case where a World Cup helps us with lowering prices.

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16 Jun 2014 08:07:28
Ed, do you know of any interest in Freddy Guarin of Milan?

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{Ed002's Note - He plays for Inter.}

16 Jun 2014 15:59:04
to be fair, both are milan teams. inter milan.

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16 Jun 2014 06:23:46
So Shaw deal dead in the water as we refuse to pay the asking price. The usual trying to shave a couple of million away and mysteriously we don't get out man. Laughable.

And before the nay-sayers say an 18yo LB is not worth £30m etc any player is worth what the prevailing market conditions at the time dictate.

Our fall from grace and no CL means we MUST pay a premium. And that's on top of the 'but it rains every day in Manchester' we've always had to contend with.

And don't give me the transfer window not open and WC is on line. Other teams are buying players.

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{Ed002's Note - Why quote a number?}

16 Jun 2014 09:12:57
Halesini,

You are making the large mistake of believing rumours instead of fact and then using these rumours to be angry and upset. Chill out, you know NOTHING about the signing of Luke Shaw.

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Id rather pay £12m or so for Dailey Blind of the Dutch team. He looked very good. Of course I am basing this on one game but he looked very comfortable and assured, with an eye for a 50 yard pass!

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No deals will be done until after the world cup and LvG is in the country to unveil his new signings. Vermaelen is a player I think we will sign. LvG knows how to manage a budget and will know he does not need a massive squad as we have no European football he just needs to trim a little more add the right quality and blood the outstanding youth Januzaj will thrive along with Wilson and a few others from the youth so we need not worry I think were in better hands than this time last year Moyes made the mistake of thinking he had time to decide who he wanted to keep and who he wanted to let go LvG will rip this team apart if he has to and he won't take things slow let's just get to August and see what has happened by then, I cannot see us signing players last minute.com like we did the previous summer.

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Haselini, you have contradicted yourself really mate, you have just said:
"And before the nay-sayers say an 18yo LB is not worth £30m etc any player is worth what the prevailing market conditions at the time dictate."
You are dead right in theory. But nobody is prepared to pay what Southampton are asking, therefore they are asking too much. The prevailing market conditions, as you put it, do not necessarily dictate price. A player is only worth what someone else is prepared to pay, simple as that.
I got shot down by a few the other week (Syd! in particular lol) for saying that United will not pay over the odds and be held to ransom, and I still stand by that view. If Southampton are asking too much for Shaw, we will look elsewhere. Whether or not we SHOULD pay OTT to get players is irrelevant. What is relevant is the clubs willingness, or not, to pay "whatever it takes" to gat players.
I think there may be circumstances where they may well decide to pay a little extra in the case of a real top class player. Unfortunately, I don't see that as being the case for an 18 (soon 19) year old left back.
Whatever us fans want, the club is a business, and any deal will have to be right for the club.
Or on the other hand, you could say that two words completely dispel that theory.
Mouranne Fellaini. lol

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In all honesty, who cares? The price was way over the top, and there are better options out there who will cost the club less money. Blind from Ajax, IMO, is a far more rounded player than Shaw - plus he can play several roles.

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The problem, betty, is that we will need to pay over the odds at some point of the equation if we want to sign quality. For example, with Shaw we would need to cough up a big transfer fee, but the wages wouldn't be that high. Whereas, on the other hand, if the player is nearing the end of his contract, you might have to pay a massive wage.

The reality is that if we want to convince players to join us we will either have to pay big transfer fees, inflated wages, or, most likely, both. Clubs like City and Monaco have shown that you can attract top quality players to 'project' clubs without CL football, but only if you are willing to pay over the odds. The problem with the United transfer policy is that they live in a la la land in which players should feel honoured to be given the opportunity to play for us, and clubs should lower their fees so the lucky players can join. Some supporters are happy to buy into this little story because it makes them feel like they are supporting a special club with special values and ideals.

The truth is that if you continue to low ball on transfer fees and refuse to offer huge wages, you will continue to finish outside the top four. But our owners know that a sizeable number of the fans are willing to turn a blind eye to the practicalities of modern football, and even now people are (yet again) talking about Anderson as if 'this year is his year' and soon Nani will be on the verge of greatness, and even Cleverley will become the next Xavi under van Gaal.

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The problem, betty, is that we will need to pay over the odds at some point of the equation if we want to sign quality. For example, with Shaw we would need to cough up a big transfer fee, but the wages wouldn't be that high. Whereas, on the other hand, if the player is nearing the end of his contract, you might have to pay a massive wage.

The reality is that if we want to convince players to join us we will either have to pay big transfer fees, inflated wages, or, most likely, both. Clubs like City and Monaco have shown that you can attract top quality players to 'project' clubs without CL football, but only if you are willing to pay over the odds. The problem with the United transfer policy is that they live in a la la land in which players should feel honoured to be given the opportunity to play for us, and clubs should lower their fees so the lucky players can join. Some supporters are happy to buy into this little story because it makes them feel like they are supporting a special club with special values and ideals.

The truth is that if you continue to low ball on transfer fees and refuse to offer huge wages, you will continue to finish outside the top four. But our owners know that a sizeable number of the fans are willing to turn a blind eye to the practicalities of modern football, and even now people are (yet again) talking about Anderson as if 'this year is his year' and soon Nani will be on the verge of greatness, and even Cleverley will become the next Xavi under van Gaal.

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Danny, like I said in my post, my point is that the club do not generally pay over the odds. Whether we think they should or not is largely irrelevant. MUFC is a business, using its own money to buy players. They will look for "value", and deals must be right for the club. Like I also said, I think there may be exceptional circumstanced when we will pay a little over the odds for a "big" signing. I just don't think an 18 year old left back falls into that category. It is just my opinion, but recent history points that way ( with the exception of Fellaini ). There are loads of players out there who would dramatically improve our team, but the press just seem to concentrate on the "same old faces". There are numerous possible targets for every position. Some we know about, probably even more that we don't. I just think we will look elsewhere for a left back if Southampton will not budge on their asking price.
Of course for all we know, Shaw may already be in the bag, though Ed has already said that is not the case.

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Danny, I said the same couple of years ago and was shot down in flames. I was told that we should only sign players who want to play for us. Wake up people, this is not how it is any more.

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NM, in fairness you can only buy players that want to sign for you.

I have no doubt in my mind that with just these players at LvG's disposal we would do much better than Moyes did last season, BUT we do need top players in key areas and to get top players you pay top wages and transfer fees.

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16 Jun 2014 15:28:09
Think NM wants us to bundle them in the back of a van and keep them at gun point until the sign the deal ;)

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16 Jun 2014 08:54:03
Can add anything to my idea or theory.
I am wondering if there are sponsor pressure on teams to play players. I am mainly thinking Rooney, as he is being used out of position and perhaps not's what is best for England.

I remember n WC98 the Brazilian Ronaldo having a fit and then playing. I remember hearing that Nike insisted that he played as he was the poster boy for them at that time.

So I am wondering if players like Cristiano, Rooney, Neymar, etc all play not just because they are good but because of pressure from the money men.

Im not saying that this is the case, just wondering if sponsors have any power at all like that over management or relevant associations.

Cheers

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{Ed002's Note - Nothing to do with sponsors.}

Is it to do with contracts Ed? Do some players have "If fit he plays" in their contracts, it seems crazy if that's the case, but with the way football is at the minute I wouldn't be surprised if some of the "branded stars" have some sort of assurance in their contracts.

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{Ed002's Note - No, it is nothing to do with contracts.}