Manchester United Banter Archive April 18 2013

18 Apr 2013 22:40:02
My last word on Rooney, there has been signs that his game is on the slide and this season he's been poor by he's own standards. last season to score 34 goals while playing out wide cm and in front of what for me is a poor United midfield was an achievement I'm not sure how many others could of done that. Lewandowski seems to be the new favourite on this site but he's never scored that many in a season in what is a very good attack minded Dortmund team.
Syd has argued that he has been in decline since 2010 but my argument has been, he has actually been a more effective striker since then.
Before 2010 Rooney for me was all about potential he was not a world-class player but he was a potential world-class player. He scored 17, 19, 23, 18, 20 goals a season leading up to 2010 good but not great.
I though he was going to be amazing but Ronaldo stepped up and I'm not sure United was big enough for the pair of them. Ronaldo took centre stage and the team was built around him Rooney had to take a back seat often playing out wide, ronaldo flourished Rooney stagnated.
In the last 3 years when the "decline" has set in Rooney has scored 34, 16 (injured for a large part ) 34 goals a season, a marked improvement.
For me while not being as exciting to watch he has been a more effective striker.
I can't remember many people slaging him off last year so for me it is a bit early to write him off after one bad season.
Rooney is a good player in 2010 maybe world-class but as yet has not lived up to his potential

Forgot to log in jred

18 Apr 2013 23:57:38
Sydney! meens Rooneys body has been in decline since 2010. This is true. He's not looked the same player since he got is big money contract. Pedro.

Can't disagree with much of that jred. It comes down to patiece I think, the impatinet people will say he should already have been replaced whilst the patient people will say he deserves longer. I'm very much on the fence right now so I'll let the manager sort it out!

One small point I'd disagree with is that Rooney stagnated because we built the team around Ronaldo. If Rooney was as good as Ronny he would have come out the other side a better player IMO.

I'm not sure why he is struggling with his first touch, passing etc. these days but I can only assume that it's related to his conditioning, body shape or fitness, or possibly the amount of football he's played from a young age.

HBadger

Hb
On him stagnating your possibly right but I really don't think United got the best out of a young wayne Rooney.
This season his first touch and passing has been poor but I'm not sure I would put that down to fitness.
I think Rooney has always needed a run of games even in his younger days and due to injury he just hasn't got that this season.
The writing May well be on the wall but one bad season is a bit early to call it and I don't buy into the decline theory since 2010 all players game change as they get older.
One thing is for sure United will know if his body is in decline or if he us just in bad form and that will determine if he gets a new contract.
( guess it wasn't last word )

Jred

One thing I do feel a bit sorry for Wayne on is him being played out of position so often. This has done him no favours IMO as he's not a CM'er and certainly not a winger! Whether he would be doing better now if he'd been played consistently in the same position is up for discussion.

He really needs to fire in these last 5 games IMO to send a message to the boss.

Jred

It feels like trying to get blood out of a stone sometimes. If people have decided to write him off and discard him based on this year's performance, we can't do much. I just wished people would have a balanced perspective like GAV does. But I think its a trend and people feel nice taking a high moral ground and dissing at Rooney citing attitude and effort. When no one here knows nothing. Well the other player we have at 160k basic, he is allowed to be crap sometimes because he looks in shape, he is sexy and has a name with a Dutch feel to it. 8 months vs 8 years!

Deeps.

Deeps
If you read 90% of the sell Rooney posts they contain " if we could get 40 mill" or " as long as we bought x, why or z"
I know it's the nature of the site but some people are more interested in the transfer window than the season.
Never mind the pros or cons just buy the next fad player
Like fergy said " cows and fields"
Jred

Deeps

Thanks for the mention, lol, hate it when people see things as 'balck & white' on here when reality tends to be a lot more 'grey'. I think it's important to be balanced otherwise it's possible to lose sight of the truth. Deep man :) (no pun intended)

Haha Gav

That was DEEP man ;). I think I tend to be on the "whiter" side with the players. Simple reason, I would rather back our own players till the last. Then there are the KLOOTesque hardmen, who would slate and slate and. SLATE. Just can't bring myself upto speed to fogetting someones contribution.

Deeps.

Am with you there, Deeps.

18 Apr 2013 21:43:31
Whats the news on Erik Lamela joining?
Thanks in advance

19 Apr 2013 07:46:01
Very very small due to his ownership issues. I would say there's maybe a 5% chance of it happening. We were interested before he joined Roma, but a very expensive very complicated move for him now is just not going to happen imo. It's a shame we don't go the extra mile to sign some of the south americans before they join other european clubs. We had an interest in Falcao, James Rodriguez and Lamela before they came to europe but we didn't push for the deals. We could have signed all three for less than 20m, now all three would set you back 120m. Ah well hindsight is a wonderful thing or so they say.

18 Apr 2013 20:39:34
To think Hernandez has 16 goals this season, imagine how much he'd score Had we had good wingers.

TRUMORS

Plus more game time.

Hernandez is not good enough when he starts and has to play with his back to goal. There is no doubt he can finish and run on to cross balls but his all round game doesn't merit more starts in the style we play. We tend to isolate our forward and rely on getting the ball wide, watch even when we play with three in midfield. We still try to get it wide, they then cover his runs. With his back to goal he lacks the strength or technique to hold it up. I believe we have worked on his physique but it has resulted in a loss of half a yard of pace.

Good player who would benefit from a different team style if he wanted to play every game or an irregular player for us.

Red Man

Not good enought to start.
He is an impact player and nothing more.
His first touch is terrible, he can't hold up the ball.
I would only ever use him with 20-25 mins left when you need a goal unless other strikers are out injured.

Simmo

Hernandez tends to play better as one of three up top when he plays with one other striker does not tend to find enough space

18 Apr 2013 16:26:43
Is it just me or has rooney changed because 2years ago rooney would drive the utd team and was the main man at utd whereas now fergie takes him off with 20mins to go and doesn't even start in the champions league and due to things like that I feel fergie is driving rooney out of Manchester United I really hope rooney comes back with a real venom like he has in the past. Cc

Tbh I think SAF is running out of patience with rooney.
He won't have forgotten him basically holding the club to ransom and rooney hardly justifies his current wage let alone an improved one. I wouldn't be surprised if he was offered a new deal but with lower pay.
Id love to see the rooney of old but his fitness, passing and workrate are not anywhere near where they were but it does feel like his united career is coming to an end IMO. hope i'm wrong because he has been immense for us but I keep expecting a performance to prove people wrong and it never comes. it would have 2 or 3 years ago

BABY FACED ASSASIN

18 Apr 2013 15:45:23
Manchester United's transfer targets include the following -

Garay
Strootman
Matic
Rodriguez
Falcao

Yeah that's what I read too. thanks

Yea I read that too. T45

I can guarantee matic will not join Manchester united

18 Apr 2013 13:38:33
Sydney!

You've done an awful lot of posts this season, do you think you aught to have a couple of weeks rest, your posts are looking really jaded mate, you've been at it since pre season with no break through the euro's, you're 28, you've got to start looking after yourself, that and 3 kids, you're heading for burn out.

Stoner

I'm 29, no spring chicken anymore. 3 kids and a dog.

On a serious note, if AW was more careful with JW then maybe he wouldn't have spent 17 months out.

Sydney!

Is it down to AW or is Wilshire just an I jury prone player a bit like rodwell

Pull the curtains at night Syd mate think ya could have a stalker there!

18 Apr 2013 16:02:11
I'm hoping he goes easy on him for the rest of this season Syd, he's running a big risk I really don't want him to.

Next season will tell if he's going to be injury prone. Seriously hope not.

Stoner

Stoner, I think AW shouldn't play him again this season, but top four is very important for Arsenal so his hands may be tied.

Sydney!

18 Apr 2013 16:56:23
If I'm honest Syd I'd rather he didn't too, but in reallity 3rd is the big one as come the summer I really don't want us, with money to spend (allegedly), to be waiting to do the pre qualifying stuff before any possible transfers will come.

At the same time we have no guarantees of top four even.

Stoner

Funny post Stoner. I noticed my mention on your page the other day, thanks, I just about managed not to bite :) I agreed with most of your post on there BTW.

18 Apr 2013 12:38:55
Didn't the fantastic Tom Cleverly have a great performance last night! He is so good we should never play a player out of position in place of him!

aaallj5

Cleverley is currently being rested by the manager due to fear of burnout. That is what I was told last night by someone who is well known around Carrington. Someone who watches and talks to the players on a regular basis, although predominantly youth players. He has been watching Cleverley at Carrington since he was 12. United have a very good sports science team and they will be aware of what his body can handle.

Sydney!

So can his body not handle a full season?
Jred

I think if you consider he spent most of last season out injured, (Longer than Valencia) from September to March, then used the rest of the season to get match fit ready for the Olympics. Then playing solidly from July to April. It's hardly surprising that he is fatigued and in need of a rest.

It's been a massive debut season for him, Olympics, England call up, 1st full United season. Add that to his conversion from playing as a left-winger to playing as a deep lying midfielder, he has in all done very well for his first full season.

I hope he will kick on next season and be more adventurous going forward. I think he will be much fresher next season and will hopefully progress further. I think if you asked SAF what he thinks about Cleverley's season he will be more than impressed.

Sydney!

Sydney he is 23, We can't say he is going to be a world class player or even an important player. If he is going to be a squad player for us he has to be fit and active ready to be called upon when needed.
Rooney should be no where near the middle of the park, as Tom Cleverly should be stamping his authority on the United team and proving he has the capabilities to improve the first 11.
He is a professional footballer coming into the prime of his career. We should be saying he needs a rest to younger and older players. Carrick deserves to be rested, Jones and raphael, Not a fit young 23 year old, who has only played 23-24 games this season.
Rooney has been shocking this season, however we should not even be talking about Rooney in that position, because if Tom Cleverly was really the talent he is meant to be he would be the first name on the team sheet, especially at this moment in time. Please tell me why a 40 year old player is being brought on ahead of Cleverly. How long does he need to be rested.

aaallj5

He's 23 yet it's still his FIRST full season as a United and England player. What is people's obsession with age?

A couple of full season's of injury has perhaps stopped him breaking through a couple of years earlier, but 23 is hardly old.

Sydney!

Or 40 competitive games since his season kicked off in July. A month before most players.

You do realise Cleverley has been a deep lying midfielder since the beginning of last season don't you? He hasn't developed in that position since being a youth player. He was played there by the manager preseason 2011 due to the manager missing out on targets.

Sydney!

Syd
What do you think his natural position is
Jred

But he doesn't offer anything Sydney, he was converted to that position, because he had no chance of making it in his preferred position at United.
As for the olympics, GB only played 4 games, what about raphael who has been the only right back at the club all season, he got to the final of the olympics and has played almost 700 minutes more than him. we could of played valencia their more to give raphael a rest, at a push we could of played smalling and jones there more, but Raphael stamped his authority onto the side.
We know are self, its not his first season in professional football. 23 is getting on, he should be entering his prime, and stamping a place on the team, regardless of where he is playing. Jones has not settled in his natural position yet you know he has played after a game.
Are we calling this a rest or has Fergy seen that cleverly offers very little?

aaallj5

Jred, he was playing LW for the England U21's, but played CAM for most of his loan spells and most of his time in the academy. Scored a goal every three games for Watford and scored regularly in the academy. He was Watford's player of the season, but then got a bad injury. I am not convinced he would be good enough to be first choice CAM at United, but I do think he is a better player when given a licence to roam forward. When he has played further forward this season he has come up with a goal. Problem is I think he may be being asked to play the way he is. I think it could be tactical and he is asked to receive the ball off of the back four and play it out. I would like him to be more adventurous, but he seems to be reluctant to do so at times. Whether that's because he is worried about losing possession or whether SAF sees him as a Manchester United Joe Allen I really do not know, but I want him to push forward more and until he does push forward more I will remain sceptical.

Sydney!

No, he was converted there because the manager failed to bring in a midfielder (again). And because he and Anderson impressed in preseason against City & Barcelona the manager played him there and until his injury in September 2011 he was very good.

Rafael has finally stamped his authority on the RB position this season after nearly FIVE full seasons at the club. He has also been a player who has been a scapegoat, who people said will never be good enough. Just goes to show that game-time is just what a player needs.

Rafael has played a lot this season and started a month before everyone else too, but hasn't played as much as Cleverley this season. He has also been given rests this season like Cleverley and he has also benefitted from international breaks, whereas Cleverley has been playing in.

Cleverley and Carrick are still the first choice midfield line-up when fully fit. They have been the most played two this season and played in the bigger games. Jones will play in some big games due to his robustness, but Cleverley & Carrick are the first choice midfielders and Giggs & Rooney have been filling in while he is being rested.

Sydney!

Auf
Has he been rested or dropped?
Is he good enough to play cam for a team like United?
From the start of the season have you changed your opinion on him
Jred

Do you know what I love about that post, is how you emphasis Rafael taken five full season to stamp his authority. He is what 22 now, so if he continues we can maybe look forward to 10 years of him at his best.
In your previous post you state its only Cleverly's first season at United so by that logic, Cleverly won't stamp his authority till he is 28, can we wait that long and how long will we have left with him when he stamps his authority? You could also factor into that injuries, as players who have serious injuries tend to continue having small injuries. The same could be said about Rafael!
So Your right it ain't cleverlys fault it must be Fergusons, as to put your trust in two injury prone centre midfielders is madness.
I will be very surprised to see Cleverley at the club in two years time, he will get another season, to give him a fair chance, we can then get a true assessment, you know when he ain't to tired!

aaallj5

Jred, I have answered all three of those questions in previous posts.

1) He is being rested by the manager due to fear of burnout.

2) I don't think he is good enough to be first choice CAM.

I have been slightly disappointed that he hasn't been more adventurous by pushing forward, but it is his first full season as a United and England player and he has time to improve.

Sydney!

I agree with Syd, Cleverley is a more than adequate squad player. He will never set the world alight but he is a very tidy little player. With time and experience he could be very valuable to future squad success just like Welbeck. Welbecks finishing is dire and I don't think he will ever be anything but a half decent striker, but played in a wide forward position he causes huge problems for defences with his height, strength and pace. I think at times next year we may see him on the left and Zaha on the right. If it works it could be very successful as they are 2 very powerful young guys and could cause problems to any team over the coming seasons.

Brendan81

Cleverly is a good young player. He has been very highly thought of at every club he has represented as well as at the FA. He is neat and tidy with the ball and seems to have the terrible habit of passing to his own team. He's busy off the ball and works very well for the team. His presence has enabled Carrick to have arguably his best season at United. The history of Owen and possibly Rooneys form now are prime examples of burn out, and with the league more or less tied up Cleverly should hit the ground running next season.

Wellbeck again is a good prospect. His finishing at times is poor but in my opinion he has the makings of a very exciting wide player. He has pace to burn and is unpredictable. Madrid were petrified of him running with the ball. With Kagawa finding his feet, Zaha already signed and some midfield additions, United may well be back to their swashbuckling best next season.

Big G

Big g
Burn out?
I can understand worries about burn out with players like Owen giggs or Rooney but them players had been playing first team football for 6 years by the time they were clevs age. He is the same age as kags no body is worried kags could be burned.
He has played a few games but not a massive amount.
Jred

Jred, fair enough. My point was that he's played a lot of football in the last 12 months rather than in terms of his career and, with a bad injury last season Fergie clearly thinks he needs a rest. Rooney seems to me to be heading the same way as Owen. Rather than hitting his peak he seems to be in decline. My general point is that the likes of Owen and possibly Rooney are prime examples of burn out.

You ve no source at carrington syd. your an awful spoofer

Rooney has had one bad season Owen had injury problems year after year if Rooney struggles again again next year I will be concerned.
Clevs probably is due a break I just think Durn out is a bit strong
Jred

18 Apr 2013 11:30:54
I would like to start off by saying that this is not a post to try and defend Wayne Rooney. But a little bit of perspective would do no harm I guess. Wayne Rooney did not have a good game yesterday considering both the halves. There is no question in that if we talk about an objective performance analysis. let's talk abt RVP. The guy looked knackered and was noticeably poor. And he was playing in his preffered position. Rooney was certainly not. Yet looking at the posts, we would think Wayne Rooney scored 5 own goals and got sent off.

People come up with "RVP scored the goal, we did not lose" argument. The same argument that some tried to make for Wayne Rooney. That was shot off, people said overall he looked poor and tap ins and empty net finishes don't count for anything. Yet a RVP offside goal gives him far larger immunity on the forum. Tell me the number of ocassions Wayne Rooney has played as a number 10 this season? His PREFFERED POSITION. RVP goes through a epic goal drought, its poor service, Wayne can't take the bull by the horns once match, he should be sold. Syd says that lack of proper midfielders is not Cleverly's fault, I guess that fits the bill for Rooney as well?

If only results matter, then Rooney was scoring them at the business end when VP was clearly not. So how is it that we judge people? Do we use the same yardsticks? I don't think so.

Lastly my view, both of them are fantastic players. I will pick both of them knowing even if they are not quite there, one moment of brilliance and we win! Rooney has had one poor (?) season and we want to sell him. Guess what would have happened to Giggs and Scholes in the early 2000s. You don't need to sell your better players to fund transfers. Not Manchester United. We earn enough to buy good players. I know I will picked to pieces for the post, but then this is how I think. SIMPLE

Deeps.

Deeps, RvP has played an awful lot of games this season. Also last night he ran his socks off, he was LW, then RW, he was all over the place. This is why I believe he will play as a number 10 next season with perhaps Lewandowski ahead of him. Similar to the Stoke game.

That being said I think RvP has not been the same, but he does need a good rest, he is entering his 30's and he played in the Euros and has played a lot this season for club and country. I think with Rooney, other than goals he offers little else on the pitch when he is out of sorts.

Sydney!

Good post Deeps,

Want to write a bit more but think you have summed it up perfectly. I also saw something yesterday before the game that Rooney had been involved in 25 goals from the last 29 games, not a bad return?

Rooney was playing in his preffered position. He wants to play as a number 10 off the main striker, and that's where he played. I'm not sure if was told to drop as deep as he did, but in doing so he left RVP isolated. But most directly, Rooney was very poor in possession, no creative spark, too many sloppy passes and touches, and he slowed down our play throughout. He has looked unfit and disinterested for weeks now, and that just isn't acceptable for a supposedly world class player.

RVP is clearly tired, but he did not play poorly. In fact, when Kagawa was moved to the centre, they started to link up very well. In addition to the goal, RVP had a number of decent headers on target and nearly set Rooney up for a goal from a corner, but Rooney fluffed it. The most important point is that RVP, despite playing below his ability, is still contributing, putting in a big effort and working hard to keep himself in top shape despite playing almost every game this season.

Danny Pughnited

The first half Rooney and kags both played well imo Jones chased the game and Carrick for me had a rare off day.

On Rooney in the first half he moved the ball around well saw a lot of the ball his first touch was ok and he never gave it away for me him and kags were running the game, but all ready there were people posting his having a mare first touch is poor.
The second half kags moved inside and Rooney played more left side but they both continued to get on the ball.
I was surprised either player got subbed to be honest.
Rooney has had a poor season by his standards no question but I think the criticism on his performance yesterday was over the top.
But this happens on this site every year certain players can do no wrong and any mistakes are either ignored or excesses made others can do no right.
Loved evra getting slated for the first goal
Jred
This year Rooney has had a poor season

Also, all season SAF has been moving Rooney around giving him chance after chance. He has played alongside RvP, just behind and now deeper again. He has been left out of certain games, dropped for others and substituted in some. He has had a poor season and if you look at his physique he just doesn't look fit. He looked dumpy last night stood next to Andy Carroll. RvP on the other hand keeps himself in tiptop shape. If he is off form it's not down to him not looking after himself physically, Rooney is not keeping himself in shape so he has to take the blame for his poor performances this season. That's my opinion anyway.

Sydney!

Danny

Wayne's played CM, on the wings, in a 2 man midfield and behind the striker. I am not even talking abt the number of times he scoots back trying to cover for Paddy. Against Stoke at times he was almost like a CDM, shielding the back 4. When he has played number 10, due to our midfield being outnumbered and outmusled he has had to come deep. You are talking about RVPs workrate, sorry but that's a tried and tested Wayne Rooney argument. People come up with "only work-rate" won't do. 2 ocassions yesterday where Persie showed how out of depth is he, trying the stepover to create space and falling down and then trying something cute in the corner flag and the ball ending up for a throw in by quite some distance. But that's about it, I will simply take it as RVP is out of form. I won't shout my gut out "Sell RVP". Keep the bias aside Danny and you would see in the first half there were moments of sheer class from Wayne as well. But then, his name is Wayne Rooney!

Ports

But they will say that except for being involved in 25 of 29 goals scored, he is still sh!te and completely out of sorts.

Syd

Syd I disagree. Wayne might be a little hit and miss this season, but except for goals he does get involved an awful lot in the build up play. Most of our attacks/counter attacks that have resulted in goals have gone trhough him. So not sure what you are saying. And yes RVP is tired, he will come back good. But my problem is the new toy/old toy thing. I am tired of it.

Deeps.

Deeps, Rooney has been out of shape since 2010. He has slowly been declining physically since then. He will always get goals and he is still a top player, but he is on a slippery slope now physically and he will not recover from this. We have seen the best of Rooney IMO. Rooney is in decline, RvP is still at his peak.

Sydney!

Deeps
Good post it gets on my tits to, same people saying the same thing over and over again just trying to justify there point at times.
But every one is entitled to there opinion although some forget that's all it is
Jred

Spot on Syd, Rooney is definitely in decline and unless his attitude to personal fitness changes then the decline will accelerate. He has never been a natural athlete and only continuous hard work will keep him in shape. Lessons to be learnt from Paul Gascoigne's decline perhaps.

Syd

I can make a case for RVP being 29. Yes he is in shape, but there are no guarantees on whether him or Wayne would end up giving us more productive years. People tend to forget that Wayne Rooney has been consistently brilliant for 7 to 8 seasons now. As a matter of fact all of them for Manchester United. Even after the physical decline that you suggest he has been one of our best players. Infact last year was one of his most productive seasons. How do you justify that? We would agree that we certainly did not have the best of squads last season? The Milan games that he dominated were in 2010. Whilst he has had injuries, I would not completely discard him as of now. Even this season I have seen him sprint on a few occasions, he was no slouch. The changes you see are attributed to how SAF has moulded him as a player. That has happened with a lot of players (Nani etc). I would agree, he naturally finds it hard to curb his weight and has 2 work harder than others to be in shape. People talk about off field issues, tell me the last one he had and how many years has it been since? I still think its his name WAYNE ROONEY that makes him vulnerable to a lot of unfait criticism and cheap shots (you know who).

Imagine if Arsenal would have sold Persie when he was a perpetual injury casualty. Isent he our new messiah? 8 months and he can't do no wrong.

Deeps.

Deeps, RvP is into his 30th year, is he not? Wouldn't you say he is entering his 30's?

Rooney is still capable of scoring goals, that has nothing to do with his physical state. If you are floating around in the penalty box you will score goals. Then bare in mind 13/14 of his 34 goals were penalties/free-kicks. You do not need to be the pinnacle of fitness to score set pieces and tappins. The amount of opportunities Manchester United make each game a striker should be scoring several goals. Imagine if RvP took the penalties this season, he would be 30+ goals clear even with a ten game drought.

Rooney peaked at a very early age, RvP peaked a couple of season's ago. Rooney has received some unfair criticism this season, but I think people and the media are starting to realise that it isn't bad form that is troubling Rooney, it's actually a slow decline. Like Paulo said, the problem is with decline it can accelerate and with Rooney being a chub anyway, he really could struggle over the next few years. IMO Rooney is still a top player when he has the ball at his feet and he is given plenty of time on the ball, but he is in decline and he doesn't help himself with his unhealthy lifestyle.

Sydney!

Rooney only scored 7 pens that year Sydney do you not count free-kick / penalties for all players or just Rooney

Syd

"The amount of opportunities Manchester United make each game a striker should be scoring several goals"

Syd that is in contrary to what a lot of Robin fans say. They say there is no service? What is it then? Poor service or poor player? With almost the same supply line, how do Van Persie and Rooney stack up against each other? (Last year and this year). Rooney ended up with 34, Robin is on 25 (?) with 5 games to go?

Deeps.

Interesting to read the discussions on Rooney. Whilst I agree that there are other players in the squad who are having a poor season and yes they do get different treatment.

However the reality is fan expectations are varied from player to player.

In rooney's case when you are the highest earner and most high profile player at the club, there is very little forgiveness that comes with having a very poor season by his standards.

The background and history of things also works against him and hence the higher intolerance level to a bad performance.

The opposite of this is take Welbeck who can't score to save his life, but most people are willing to give him time to improve in that area. Two main reasons for the higher tolerance level, is he is on a much lower wage and by all accounts a loyal product of our academy, younger and not expected to influence the game as much as rooney can.

The reality is the higher you go the harder you can fall and in Rooney's case he is expected to perform on a much more consistent basis than he is currently.

Shahram

Rooney scored nine penalties last season.

My point is you do not need to be in tiptop shape to score a penalty (or nine), free-kicks and tappins.

Sydney!

"If you are floating around in the penalty box you will score goals.

The amount of opportunities Manchester United make each game a striker should be scoring several goals. "
Sydney
Them comments about Rooney 34 goals last year actually made me laugh.
Floating around the box really?
How many chances did that United team make.
Do them comments stand for every striker.
Try to give a balanced view you are trying to discredit Rooney season last year let come up with excuse after excuse for celebs this year.
Rooney had a good season last year any striker who scores 34 goals will of but he has been poor this season.
Jred

Celebs? I mean clevs
Jred

Messi scored 14 Penalties and god knows how many free kicks when he broke Muller's record so should we discredit Messi?

Shahram

My point is how can we use the same logic in 2 completely different contexts for 2 different players.

e. g - Persie can't score in a brothel - Poor service from the wings/midfield. Rooney can't - He is dead meat. And when Rooney scored 34 last season, the service was brilliant. Isent it the same supply line we are talking about?

Dual standards, that's it.

Deeps.

For my own tuppence worth, I think the difference is, RVP looks and acts professionally, whether it be in his efforts on the pitch or looking after himself off it.

I'm afraid the same can't be said for Rooney, certainly not this season anyway, and I think that's why some are comparing the two.

Personally, I loved RVP coming here, but I'm not hailing him as some new messiah, just a top player having a tough time at the minute. The difference being, he is continually looking to get involved, whereas Rooney, and I don't know the reason why, just looks disinterested.

Jred, my point is pretty simple (conveniently like yourself). I am not discrediting Rooney in any way. I am merely saying you do not need to be in tiptop shape to score nine penalties, a few free-kicks & some tappins.

I'm saying him scoring 34 goals doesn't prove he was not in decline, as Charlie Adam could score nine penalties, a few free-kicks and one or two six yard tappins. You do not need to be super fit to score set pieces.

Sydney!

Syd

My friend, now you are actually defending a lost cause and that too for the heck of it. Physical decline and all that can be debateable and subjective, but saying he scored 9 penalties, a few freekicks and 2 or 3 6 yard tap ins is so unlike you. So you are saying Rooney scored 22 tap ins last season? (9 PK and 3 freekicks). Doesent make a lot of sense mate. Are you saying he was stationary and the ball kept finding his feet and into the net? Give him some credit for last season mate. The least he deserves.

Deeps.

Deeps, I have not once said he has scored 22 tappins. Read my posts. Scoring 34 goals is a great achievement, I am not discrediting in any way. All I am saying is Rooney scoring 34 goals doesn't prove Rooney wasn't in physical decline as a player in physical decline could score penalties, free-kicks and tappins (not all tappins).

Sydney!

Syd
Back to name calling, grow up.
What's interesting is you say Rooney has been in decline since 2010 yet have a look in the archives you were arguing he was our best player the best in the EPL and that people should stop believing what they read in the paper about a bust up with fergy only 12 month ago.
As per normal rather than look at someone else's point of view or consider you may be wrong as feels says you are defending a loss cause.

When did rooney decline start,
The moment edd said we are interested in lewandowski then all of a sudden Lew was the next big thing and Rooney was finished.
Try to have your own opinion
jred

My frank assessment of Rooney:

He did have a good season last season (the stats alone prove that) but IMO there have been little signs of 'technical sloppiness' and 'decline in athletisism' creeping into his game since before this season. I have been hoping that it's down to form/injuries and that he would snap out of it - but with contract negotiations impending I think he really needed to snap out of it in the 2nd half of this season. He hasn't quite 'clicked' into top form IMO and the worry is will he ever get back to his previous heights to warrant a new deal?

What I will never do is devalue Rooney's contribution to the team. He dragged us through many of the tough times since Ronaldo left and was immense for a few seasons. And even when he hasn't looked at his sharpest (last 2 seasons or so IMO) he has showed his worth through goals, assists, leadership and the odd creative spark. This is why I have never agreed with the Rooney slater's even though I've had nagging doubts.

The trouble is he hasn't yet fully taken his opportunity since Jan and is now running out of time. Sometimes too much is made of him being on the bench or being subbed but it does show little signs that he's not seen as indispensible these days.

There will be a big decision to be made in the summer and I'm glad I'm not the one making it. It is a tough call no matter what anyone of the pro-Rooney or anti-Rooney supporters say.

I'd like nothing more than to see him rip up the opposition in the last few games and bag a hatful of goals to make the decision less difficult for the manager! I won't say how confident I am of that happening though.

Syd

"I'm saying him scoring 34 goals doesn't prove he was not in decline, as Charlie Adam could score nine penalties, a few free-kicks and one or two six yard tappins. You do not need to be super fit to score set pieces. "

This my friend. The 22 tappins was just me calculating the total up. So you are saying a player in the peak of his physical powers does not score tappins or penalty kicks or free kicks? How is taking set pieces or scoring tappins related to physical decline or not? That is my question.

Deeps.

19 Apr 2013 09:35:33
As usual you take the cake in terms of a balanced opinion. But my point with this thread was, the differential treatement as far as RVP and Rooney are concerned. I agree, this is crunch time for Wayne considering the contract nego.

Deeps.

Deeps, it's really quite simple my friend. Your argument is: how can Rooney be in decline when last season he scored 34 goals. My reply to that is: the amount of goals scored by Rooney is irrelevant as you do not need to be in immaculate condition (physically) to score nine penalties, a few free-kicks & 10 or so six yard tappins.

IMO Rooney has been slowing down since 2010, he hasn't looked the same player when running, his touch has been poor, he has lost his explosive speed that he once had etc etc, in 2009 he was being compared to Messi. He was superb. The 34 goals was a great achievement, but IMO I think it was covering over the cracks.

I am a busy bee today so this discussion will be continued ;)

Sydney!

Jred, 18 months ago I was naive like you are now and I believed it was just bad form Rooney was going through. It's as clear as the sky is blue that Rooney is in physical decline. This season he has looked a stone overweight, disinterested and very frustrated at times. He is struggling and if you cannot see that then you are blind.

But even though Rooney is out of sorts, I still look for his name on the teamsheet as he is still a top player and he can get in the right places at the right time to score, also when the ball is at his feet and he has time he usually does something good with the ball. I just feel we have seen the best of Wayne Rooney. You disagree (for now), but I think you will click on sooner or later. Even the most blinkered of Rooney fans are starting to see his demise.

As for Lewandowski, I would have a 23 year old Rooney over Lewandowski anyday, but you must move on and build for the future. I have been talking about Lew way way way before the editor said he is likely to join United. The archives will tell you that. This Rooney discussion is something that will drag on until the summer, but for now we will have to agree to disagree.

Sydney!

Syd
you change your mind and back track that much it's hard to keep track.
Jred

Shahram

Atleast you have continued with your opinion with regards to Rooney unlike the "sheep" on here. I agree we are used to him influencing games. Only time will tell what's up. But I think I would be a little more patient with the entire saga. People may agree or disagree, without his goals against City, Fulham, Norwich etc, we would not be in such a position in the EPL. Despite having a poor season.

Syd

Awryt mate! We agree to disagree, let's see how it pans out. But if he can score 34 goals whilst him being in physical decline, why not play him as a striker ;).

Deeps.

18 Apr 2013 10:19:32
James Rodriguez needs to be a target this summer, our wingers have been very poor and lack the skill required to play a fluid type of football.

As for the CM I think a tough tackling midfielder is needed, Carrick isn't a natural defensive mid and is suited to playing a bit further up the pitch, we need that Owen Hargreaves type player, somebody who can tackle and play the ball about.

18 Apr 2013 10:41:33
People keep saying we need wingers, who said that were going to play with wingers next season? I think we could be moving away from wing play, this maybe why our wingers have lost form. The tactics have changed which is limiting them. What we need more than anything is TWO midfielders to add pace power and drive to our midfield. Next season Scholes and Anderson will have left as well as possibly Fletcher. So in real terms we will only have Carrick and Cleverley as midfield options. With maybe a converted winger a converted defender and a converted striker as other options in midfield.

If you look at what the manager is looking at (1) Begovic (hope we stay with DDG), (2) Garay, (3) Strootman, (4) Rodriguez, (5) Lewandowski & we have Zaha. That for me is a replacement for Linders or DDG (Begovic), a replacement for Rio (Garay), a much needed midfielder (Strootman), a replacement for Nani (Zaha), a much needed inverted winger (Rodriguez) and a replacement for Hernandez or Rooney (Lewandowski)? Or to be fair I think RvP & Kagawa could have been bought in advance to prepare for a future Rooney sale. I think Rodriguez & Lewandowski would complete the attack.

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - Given up on Gaitan then Syd?}

Nice little hint there Ed002, have talks started again with Benfica? Double swoop for Gaitan & Garay?

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - I would not lose sight of Gaitan just yet Syd. The situation with Rodriguez has changed slightly with another club (it does not matter who) in the midst of seeking third party finance to support a bid for him.}

I'm the original poster, keep forgetting to sign in.

I agree that agree shappy but Rodriguez can play central and wide.

He is the best option IMO.

Ed002, other than Gaitan is there anyone else United could turn to? Thanks.

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - Conceptually they "could" turn to practically anyone Syd.}

Ed002, is there any similar players to Gaitan and Rodriguez out there off the top of your head, who are going under the radar (so to speak)?

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - I don't study players Syd.}

Ed002, is it possible that United will use Ashley Young and perhaps Zaha on the left for another season and go all out for Goetze in 2014 who often plays on the left for Dortmund? Or do United see him as a more central midfielder?

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - I care not for tactics Syd but would think Goetze would be seen to be flexible. Perhaps someone like Andrew Ayew would help the cause for you.}

Sydney! {Ed002's Note - I didn't say anything like that Syd and you have clearly misunderstood something that has happened.}

I love the interaction between ed002 and Sydney. Keep it up guys. T45

Similar players in terms of style of play to Rodriguez and Gaitan Syd? The only ones I can think of are Adam Maher, Zakaria Labyad, Juan Fernando Quintero and Zhano Ananidze now out of all of those my preference would be either Maher or Quintero, Labyad would have to go to the AFCON each year, and Ananidze is in a lucrative league and would probably want a larger wage {Ed002's Note - I would not hold your breath on any of these. Note also that Maher is earmarked for a move already this summer and the AFCON is not every year.}

Where is Maher off to ed? And I was talking in terms of every year the AFCON takes place {Ed002's Note - Maher is identified as the replacement for Eriksen at Ajax.}

Gaitan can play as central attacking midfielder and has played there a few times for Benfica this year. If anyone has watched them recently, he is in good form and been very integral to their current run.

Shahram

Ed002 I don't believe we will be going after Garay. {Ed002's Note - Manchester United, Real Madrid and Barcelona have made interest known in Garay following Chelsea holding talks about the player. I understand any move will be influenced by cost, and interestingly what happens with another player and I understand that Barcelona will not be progressing their interest further.}

Ed002 ok let's assume Hummels is Barcelona bound and hence they are not pursuing him. I still don't believe we are after him and would be shocked if we buy him.

I have watched him and he is good defender but I can't see us needing a CB unless one of Smalling, Evans, Vidic are being moved. Given the fact that The club seems to think giggs at 40 is worth an extension, I will swallow my tongue if vidic is sold and the other 2 is highly unlikely.

I do believe Gaitan is serious interest and might be the cheaper option to Rodrigues, which by the sound of it someone is willing to pay porto what they are asking and never thought we would part 35 million for him anyway.

Shahram {Ed002's Note - It is zip to do with Hummels - I am not sure where you get this stuff from.}

Ed002 in Your view, does it have anything to do with happens with Ferdinand in the offseason.

Shahram {Ed002's Note - I don't know what you mean.}

18 Apr 2013 10:02:46
Morning Gents,

Not going to comment on the game last night as to be honest it's been like groundhog day coming on here after every game this season and seeing the same posts :)

What I would like to say though is that I think we have a fantastic little player in Kagawa and personally I think we should build our team around him. It's taken a while for him to settle but we have seen glimpses of his ability this year and I think he will probably bulk up a bit over the summer and we will really profit from him next season.

Also, De Gea has now arrived, I watched the analysis when I got home and Neville said he thinks the Carroll incident will be the making of De Gea and I think he is spot on, he looked well up for the battle last night and even gave Carroll some in the 2nd half.

Really happy to have these 2 at United.

Deg Gea showed his class against Madrid, we all knew the potential but after the match against Madrid his confidence had a huge impact on his performances.

No Name,

I've never doubted his class but Madrid was a European game where the physical element of the game is not the same as the Premier League, he stood up to Carroll, argubly the most physical striker in the league. We will not be playing spanish teams every week so the fact he can now take a whack and also dish some out shows he is getting to grips with our league.

Agreed, really excited at having both Kags and DDG in our squad! Future stars IMO.

HBadger

18 Apr 2013 09:28:40
Im a massive fan of Rooney but I really do think that the writing is on the wall.
I couldn't believe how bad he was last night, he was lazy, lethargic, totally uninterested and overweight and has been for most of the season.
I think the time is right to cash in on him now, at nearly 28 if we can get 25-30 million pounds for him I would sell.
We need to make sure that the right player is brought in as a replacement.
I have always defended Rooney in the past but he has really hit a nerve with me this season from the moment he come back fat and overweight.
Your thoughts?

Simmo

I still think Rooney is a top players, but like I have been saying for a very long time now, I do think we have seen the best of Wayne Rooney. Albeit he scored plenty of goals last season, his physical decline was there to be seen. This is the correct time to cash in on Rooney, but only if we can wrap up a top signing first.

Sydney!

Totally agree Syd, we need the somebody in place before we sell Rooney. I think Fergie has a major rebuilding job on his hands getting rid of the likes of Anderson, Nani, Kiko, Bebe. Scholes is calling it a day, Fletcher is knackered, Rio and Vidic arn't getting any younger and the left back is still a problem for me.

Simmo

Simmo, I think rebuilding started years ago. Smalling, Evans & Jones for CB. Kagawa & RvP plus possibly Lewandowski to replace Rooney? Strootman for midfield, Zaha to replace Nani on the bench. We have been looking at Rodriguez & Gaitan for the left side. I think only the LB position is slightly worrying for me.

Sydney!

I've defended Rooney a lot based on past form, success and ability but even I am starting to doubt how good he will be in the future. He's had a lacklustre season. His first touch and passing seem to have gone down hill and last night he was ineffective. He still gets goals and assist but his genral play has been worrying.

I'll support him whilst he wears the shirt but if we sell him and buy a replacement in the form of Goetze, Oezil etc. I would be happy enough.

My worry is that we sell him but don't buy a 'ready made' replacement :/ a la Ronaldo/Valencia.

HBadger

Gav, exactly my friend. I would only want to see Rooney sold if we have bought a replacement in first. Even a chubby Rooney gets us goals, so we will need a decent goalscorer to replace him. Kagawa looks as though he may be getting to grips with the EPL so let's see what unfolds over the next few months.

Sydney!

Agreed Sydney!

Whatever anyone says about Rooney he still contributes goals, assists and some nice passes/long balls from time to time.

So to replace him IMO we would need 2 top players i. e. Lewandowski plus either a good winger or AM. Goetze, Oezil, Di Maria, Rodriguez - I'd be happy with any one of these PLUS Lewandowski.

But - if we were to sell Rooney and just bring in Lewandoski plus Zaha I'd be very worried!

This summer I will just sit back and hope for the best :) I'm sure SAF already knows what he wants to do.

P. s. I still think there's every chance Rooney will still be here next season and if he does I'll be right behind him, willing him on to regain his form.

But if he goes I think we need 2 top replacements.

Gav, I agree completely. A few think I have some sort of Rooney vendetta on here, but all I am being is honest. Perhaps it's time for them to be honest with themselves. Rooney is in decline and has been since 2010. But if he signs a new deal, then I will support him just like I have been doing. That being said you cannot turn a blind eye to his demise or pass it off as a bad season. It couldn't be more obvious, even to the most naive on here.

Sydney!

17 Apr 2013 22:19:30
Ed, you said that Manchester United would listen to offers for De Gea (cant find exactly what you said, I've used the search function) but do you still have this opinion after recent performances and seemingly better capability shown by him? Thanks

A90 {Ed002's Note - I don't know.}

18 Apr 2013 06:57:32
I could write the same report I have written to other games, except in most of those games we scraped through. We lost momentum after the Madrid game however we are approaching games at a pedestrian pace, passing for passing sake mostly backwards without really hurting the opposition. We don't create chances because we don't move the ball quickly enough to get behind. It is worrying the manager hasn't seen this. Last night we messed about for most of the game at training pace. How many times have we ripped into the opposition from the beginning this second half of the season, nowhere near enough and the manager should address that.

Red Man

Totally agree Red Man I would love to know where the zip in our game has gone as all we did las night was pass from side to side and back to front. Thought Vidic was outstanding last night and it betas me why people want to see this guy imagine our defence without him. Kags had a good game but gave the ball away more than he should. Thought Valencia had his best game of the season hopefully it will continue. Rio had a brutal game to casual for mu liking and will never put his head in where it hurts unlike Vidic. I am a huge fan of Rooney but I think the writing is on the wall for him as he was woeful last night does not seem interested and seems to going throught the motions. A win on Monday night is vital, does anybody know where Anderson? Is he injured?

Andersons still in the queue at his local KFC
johndenton

18 Apr 2013 00:27:09
I must say, PSG's owners would need to have their head checked if they pay over £30m for Rooney.

18 Apr 2013 06:30:06
So you think he's worth up to £30 million ffs! You'll be lucky to get £25 million for him Nani and Anderson put together, unless your talking pounds as in weight.

After last night's performance we wouldn't get tuppence for him: he was pathetic. Only hope is that he's carrying an injury possibly?
RedSince68

G. A. G. U. S

How dare you. He is world class, the heartbeat of the team, he is committed, without him we are nothing, he is unbelieavle, one of the best 3 players in the world, blah blah blah, although I believe he has lost a yard of pace.

AJH

18 Apr 2013 00:03:00
Rooney needs to be sold he has been shocking for a long while now, Robert Lewandowski or Radamel Falcao could easily lace his boots, the way he has been playing this season has been no where near the required level of a manchester united player, And i'm sure many of you will agree.