Manchester United Banter Archive February 18 2014

18 Feb 2014 18:55:03
Well interesting few things that I thought I would share. the boys are back and we spend some time with a few of them.

Remember there were always people around and you can tell the lads don't like to get into the detail of stuff because they are very conscious of things in the media.

1. We have a few players that are leaving and not enthralled with some of the things moyes has done. I understand Vidic and him had a fall out in october and vidic back then decided he was leaving and few players knew about it.

2. There are older player who are not impressed with WR entire episode since last summer and fully support Fergie and believe he should have been moved on. Moyes supposedly spent the first part of his tenure ensuring he stays and as one said it wayne has his nose so much up the managers ass now that he plays in the middle smiling and had the humps when Fergie asked him to do it :) They ask say that wayne is desperately wanting a contract extension.

4. Wayne and RVP are not pals as reported and quite a few words exchanged at halftime of certain games and during training.

5. RVP very frustrated with our wingers and slow play and wants the ball in the box earlier.

6. In general the players are slowly adapting to the change and they are behind the manager but also acknowledge he is very different to Fergie and gets involved in everything at training where Fergie did not.

7. They don't believe we will get 4th and reckon the scousers might even finish higher than 4th and better than most people give them credit.

8. City by far the best team in their opinion and they did not sound very confident for the return leg at OT.

9.Moyes wants to bring in quite a few players and that came from a very senior member of the team and believes quite a few are just not good enough.

In Summary the team need some wins as their confidence seems very low and they are having hard time figuring out why the drop in form. Finally, genuinely decent lads and made you feel proud about supporting the club, even though all like a little bit of eye candy:)

I wish I had something more juicy for you guys on the transfers but only that we would get top quality players in. One bit of info was Moyes really likes Shaw and will go out for him in the summer and thinks we will get him (senior Player).

Nothing new then. And what happened to point no 3?
So we know the players are not happy and moyes loves Rooney and rvp isn't happy. But do we have any news on how our wonderful manager is going to instill the confidence, tactics, verve, speed, spirit into the side?

Thanks GCU - not too surprising but good to have some things more or less confirmed. I knew Rooney's special treatment will have ruffled a lot of feathers.

We lack a leader and cohesion, as well as obvious weaknesses. Watching Fabregas tonight whilst not doing anything special (yet) it is so clear to see how much of a major difference he would have made, we would be in the hunt for the title if we had got him I think.

Nomid

Opps missed point 3:)

I never said they were unhappy. Most of these guys just play football and get on with it. I genuinely never got any inclination they have no trust in him either. It honestly felt like we make a lot more of a deal out of it than they do.

Nothing there surprises me. It couldn't be more obvious that the players are struggling for confidence. Van Persie not being happy is also there for all to see if people choose to open their eyes. I just hope it can all get resolved in time for next season.

Nomid I am hoping dm's master plan is he resigns, kloop comes in with gundogan and Reus and this inspires kagawa to perform like he did at bd

I think most of the older players who are not happy with how a few things have gone under Moyes will be gone in the summer and that in itself will give the club a boost.
The Rooney/RVP debate will never go away and I think it will come down to a choice between the two of them.

It looks Rooney will win out in the end with his bumper contract, and although I would prefer it if they could play in the same team, if its a choice then we must keep Rooney imo.

18 Feb 2014 21:39:07
Shahram, regards point 9, who does Giggs, sorry, very senior player, think isn't good enough? Some of the current squad or some of the targets, I'm guessing squad players.

Fair point cgu. I'm just hoping the players come out with a smile on their face and start enjoying their football. Since dm took over, it seems everybody is looking depressed. That includes the manager players and fans!

GCU

Thanks, More or less confirmed what has been in the papers. I ruminate on the Rooney situation and how it has been handled plus the impact on the team. If he is handed the big contract, it sounds like that alone will be potentially divisive but then you have to wonder how they will feel if he was made captain?
I recall Phil Neville was trusted by Moyes at Everton and rumour had it he told the manager what the players were saying, if Rooney is made captain I would wonder if this was the same situation but given what you said in point 2 whether they would trust talking openly. That could instantly split the camp.

No Midfield. I think point 9 answers your question.

MrE

A very senior player:) said the Manager does not believe quite few of the current squad are good enough and will change many over the next 24 months. People who survive this summer will not necessarily survive the next one.

I was also tole he is convinced with the funding behind him he will build a team to win at the highest level and very sure of himself and very tough when he wants to be.

Red Man

I personally do not believe he is anywhere worth 300k as that says he is better than Suarez, Aguero, Ibra, cavani, and we know he is not and that is purely my financial hat on even if people want to argue cost of replacing him with a new top class striker.

I did not sense the younger players get much involved and are just happy to be in the team and playing and it is some of the older guys who are not full of joy with the rooney situation but I don't see them being here next year anyway.

I don't see it being divisive but I do question/wonder if building a team around Rooney will win us the highest accolades as our style of play in a certain sense is dictated if we build around Rooney in his favourite spot as number 10 and I am not the greatest fan of that style.

Word of caution the reported renewal numbers is all paper talk and maybe when we know the real numbers we will agree it makes a lot sense to tie him down for the next 5 years.

Anyway interesting few months to see how we go in the league and CL and even more interesting summer ahead.

GCU

Great update, where did you catch up with them?

GCU

Glad the manager is convinced about himself as you put it because as we have discussed there is not one shred of evidence to back up that conviction to win at the highest level. Buy top players by all means but can he win? That is going to be very difficult for him especially if the main experienced winning pro's are no longer there. A bumpy ride awaits us.

Champion

I live in Dubai mate.

Red Man

The main experienced pros not being there is not his fault but a function of a team allowing too many influential players being on the wrong side of 30 and mother nature and the ones that in their mid 30s are mostly duds and not good enough.

GCU

The ones in their 30's are not duds but a bunch of winners who whilst near the end of their careers know what it takes to win, something the manager doesn't. When RVP and Vidic particularly have such clear doubts we should be very concerned.

18 Feb 2014 16:17:49
Hi All, (Ed's can this be posted on banter, I want to know peoples opinions?)

Havent posted in a while but have some strong feelings about UTD at the moment that I would like to share with you.

First of all, Rooney's apparent £300,000 a week contract. Outrageous. No player no mata (see what I did there) how good should be earning that much. HE IS REPLACABLE! Mata can out play him there, and if Moyes is insistant on letting Mata play on the right then Shinji! Kagawa is a good player, and a great player at number 10. If rooney was to be sold we wouldn't have to buy a replacement, we can use the 'Rooney Money' to improve the rest of the squad.

Lets play 'Imagine', because we all love doing it :)

Rooney is sold for £25-£30m.

Add that to the £150m we apparently have to spend in summer

We are left with £180m.

First of all we sort out CM. The problem we have had for a while now. Kroos is a massive possibility, I would bet quite a bit he will join us in summer. so let's propose £30m - for a young strong and clever CM.

This leaves us with £150m

Now for the LB situation. Yes Luke Shaw is a quality player and yes we all want him, but let's be realistic, Chelsea will grab him by offering him stupid wages. So let's evaluate. I personally would love to see Alex Sandro, I have so much time for this lad. He's 21-22 and he has strength, something our beloved UTD have missed now for a while. He's fast and can cross a ball ( which we all know is important according to Moyes ;) ) So let's propose. £20m.

£130m left.

Lets go for another CM. Gundogan is hopeful seeing as Dortmund are interested in Kagawa. i'm not going to list Gundogans qualities because we all no how much of a talent he is and what he could bring to united. Let us not foget Gundogan is a Manchester United fan. Swap deal for Kagawa let's say £15m.

£115m.

CB now. Garay is quality and has leadership qualities, even without being captian he will boss players about and force players to do what they're supposed to do. evra. He wants to be a Man U player! £16m

£~100m

With a striker option being gone in this instance (Rooney if you've all forgotten) let's buy a ST. Benteke, with his drop of form will be cheaper this summer, maybe not a lot cheaper, but still cheaper. i'm going to go with £20m

£~£80m

Wingers time! let's start with LW. Greizmann, I have started watching La Liga recently and to be honest, he has stood out as one of the best players in that league. Young fast and attacking minded. With consideration that other teams are begging for his signiture £30m

£~50m

Now for RW, Carlo Ancoletti has labelled Di Maria Surplus to requirements at Real Madrid, which means he could be a bargain. Like Gundogan i'm not going to give you his qualaties as again, we should all know. £17m

£~30m

RB maybe? De Sciglio would make me sexually excited, he is outstanding, and with Milan slipping he won't be moving away from champions league football for us. Young and branded the new Maldini, but at a crumbling club £20-25m

Last £5m let's spend on Gauld, dundee only wanted £5m for him and he will be class, and hey, if he isn't its only £5m.

£0 pounds left. let's have a look at the starting 11.

Moyes favours a 4-4-1-1

DDG
De Sciglio Garay Jones Sandro
Di Maria Kroos Gundogan Greizzman
Mata
Benteke

Personally i'd go for a 4-2-3-1. Here is the team I proposed with squad players that can cover the position in brackets

DDG (Amos/Johnston)

De Sciglio (Rafael)
Garay (Evans)
Jones (Smalling)
Sandro (Buttner)

Gundogan (Carrick/Powell)
Kroos (Fellaini/Cleverley)

Di Maria (Zaha/Valencia)
Mata (Januzaj)
Griezmann (Young/Lingard)

Benteke (Van Persie. because he's getting old people)

This will be a Champions League Challenging team.

Harry UTD.

Love some of your selections but this isn't fifa mate, just look at the problems Tottenham have had trying to integrate 3/4 players into the XI, let alone 8/9, there's no way we will spend that money in 1 window on that many players, I can see 3/4 signings max. Priorities being LB, CB and CM. Alex Sandro, Garay and one of Moutinho or matuidi being my choices

Harry, at a time like this when we are in transition and rebuilding the squad, it is important we keep both Rooney and RvP. There will be many changes this summer and we need some stability. After changing manager, coaching staff, scouting staff etc etc, then most of our defence leaving in the summer, there is too much change too quickly. We need to keep both Rooney and RvP and build. There are so many players that are surplus this summer, we simply do not need to sell Rooney. There will be significant funds over the next two summers and we will save an awful lot on wages next season with over ten players leaving. Hernandez, Kagawa, Nani, Anderson & some kids will supply funds. Next summer players like Rafael, Valencia, Young etc could leave to supply more funds. There will be a couple summers of building so expect Moyes to be here for the foreseeable. I think while there is so much change and with the manager still settling in, we need our important players to keep the stability. Rooney and Van Persie are important.

Hi Harry I see a few issues straight off and I'm pretty ambivalent on Rooney so I'll keep out of that.

Toni Kroos good player and young can't tackle though. Gundogan even better but can't tackle either ( and back problems can be life long for an athlete). So while I'd welcome either one not both. Herrera with Strootman Kroos or Gundogan (if fit) would work but Vidal I'd love here (very unlikely).

I agree Sandro is my first choice, but seeing as we have tried twice for Coentrao and he would appear to be available this summer he seems more likely.

Griezmaan looks pure class, can score and is young and unless we used Kagawa for Reus outstanding purchase.

Garay I agree again and he certainly seems to want to come.

With all our deficiencies in other areas I'd leave RB, RW and striker alone, though I agree Benteke would do well here.

I watch Hearts St. Johnstone and Dundee United quite often, when I can't travel down, as I live close and Gauld seem, s to have gone off the boil ( not totally unexpected when a youth is played a lot) though young(17) John Souttar seems to be revelling in it.

One more winger/forward in the class of Mata would complete our attack.

One top notch central midfielder who will inevitably partner Fellaini would be great.

We clearly need an experienced CB with both Ferdinand and Vidic leaving.

We need two reliable fullbacks. Rafael is okay, but he is unreliable and cannot cross.

Evra has needed to be replaced for years now. So we need a LB too.

That's CB, RB, LB, CM & LW/RW.

If we are rebuilding we should start with getting a rock solid defence.
We all know we need a Roy keane type midfielder.
Why we have 3 no. 10's I don't know? - its just going to unbalance the team trying to fit them in

Replace Rooney with benteke? Is this a joke?? Some of the other suggestions are good though.

Yeah I agree with most of it, aside from Benteke and Griezman - Whenver I have watched either play they have done very little. We all know how poor we are at the minute and Griezman didn bugger all over both games and is over rated.

Benteke - I wouldn't pick him for Villa let alone Utd, just a big lump with no touch - one season wonder as I said during last season.

RMG, Griezmann hit a blinding shot that hit the crossbar if my memory serves me right? Sometimes it's difficult to show what you can do with a poor team around you. He does stand out for them though in most games. I agree with Benteke. Not MU standard.

18 Feb 2014 21:50:37
not bad in theory harry much harder in real life wit the deals unless your really harry redknapp lol

18 Feb 2014 14:35:41
Hi eds I see some fans dreaming of draxler, reus etc for next season. Without Europe next season it ain't going to happen folks. Ed do u think that if we don't get into Europe will we have to pay mad money for players and their wages and lastly will we be given the money to spend. IMO we need to be like psg were two seasons ago Spending a lot of money on players even though they couldn't offer european football. What do u think

{Ed007's Note - Utd being in the CL or not isn't going to affect the asking price for players and playing for Man Utd will still have the same pros and cons as the past. One year of not competing in the CL will not do any long-term harm to the club but IMO there is still time to get in the top four.}

ED you seriously think we can make top 4?

Who do you see dropping out? Arsenal? Liverpool?

{Ed007's Note - Why not? There's still a long way to go and anything can happen.}

18 Feb 2014 09:46:48
Hi ed's and all regular posters - are you surprised by RVPs ommision from the 'new captain' list? Rooney, Jones, Evans, Fletcher & De Gea are all included on it. If it was me I would have Rooney captain with Jones vice, these are two hugely influencial players and are not scared to voice there opinions. I also think it could be the motivation for Rooney to keep himself in shape. The other candidates for me would be De Gea as a vice or RVP, I am surprised that RVP has not made the list I really am.

A second point, does anyone know anything about Alan Dzagoev? A player that we have been linked with over the past week.

Considering RVP has only been here for a couple of seasons, the second of which has been marred by injuries, I don't think so.

Add to that the fact that while he is a magnificent player and very influential, he's hardly a leader on the pitch, and he left his last club for their rivals as he was captain, that does not make the best of captain

That list is worrying, none of them strike me as real leaders. It's scary how weak our dressing room is, what we would give for a Keane, Schmeichel, Cantona, Ince, Robbo now.

Dzagoev - a poor mans Kagawa, far too light weight and whilst very exciting a few years ago, has stagnated for me. Ortega esque.

Thanks RMG, never really paid much attention to Dzagoev. Do you not think Jones is in that mould? He is a very passionate, intense kind of player who is always shouting at someone or something.

Fresh - I just think Jones seems a bit thick to be our captain (in the nicest way possible). I think he would be a great number 2, he puts his body on the line which is great, but he is a bit stupid, risking needless injury and he switches off too easily. I know if I was in a changing room I would find it difficult to take orders/respect him for leadership. Kind of like the deputy manager of a shop (we all know them), one of the lads that doesn't command respect, but does ok whilst the gaffer is off work.

He isn't a dopey as Smalling, but to lead a team I think he has quite a way to go. You would want him in your army, but he would definitely be the guy going over the trench first and you need a bit more from a captain imo.

I personally would go for RVP - he has the intellect, the class, experience and he would be listened to by the others. But personally I would go all out for Schweinsteiger in the Summer.

18 Feb 2014 22:09:21
In other words we don't need Lt Percy we need a combination of Captain Blackadder (intelligence) and lord Flasheart (carisma)

Giggsy has to be our lord flashheart ;)

18 Feb 2014 01:51:49
Just been watching a few videos online of Andrea's Pereira and well, all I can say is this guy is going to be an absolute star! Watched his performance against west ham for the under 21's and just oozed class! Scored an absolute belter which he seems to do regularly. David moyes was at that game too! So with the top 4 looking less and less likely, would anyone agree that if we are going to see kagawa and chicharito in the summer we should give younger players such as Pereira and Wilson them positions on the bench?

I think its probably a year to early, i'd say lingard, powell and will keane have more chance of making the bench next season and probably henriquez if he doesn't go on loan again.

I am hopeful that there is a big clear out of the dead wood, 10 / 11 players. Then bring 4 or 5 top class players in and make the rest of the squad up with youth. You can see what a breath of fresh air Januzaj has been, there is no reason why Powell, Henriquez, Lingard et al can't do the same. I think Henriquez would be an ideal replacement for Hernandez as 4th choice striker.

That's the way I see it to Fresh 5 in in the summer a lot out. I'm surprised, after our pre-season, Lindgard has not been given a run out. Probably down to our poor performances.

Studying psychology by any chance Fresh? ;) seem to use et al a lot lol

I agree with Fresh 10/11 players out is quiet possible the squad is congested and has been for 2-3 years we can afford to lose these amount of players with 4-5 players in