Manchester United Banter Archive June 18 2013

 

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18 Jun 2013 23:19:37
I was reading Shappys post and it got me thinking, I decided to post this individual from the main thread to get opinions on this possibility and to not lengthen Shappys thread too much.


Personally I'd like us to play a 4-2-3-1 formation with the same defence apart from taking Evans out and putting Vidic in.

The three central midfielders would be Carrick central then an energetic young player either side such as Thiago - Carrick - Mendy. The two outer central midfielders would do all the work and get up and down the pitch and Mendy would sweep behind Carrick mainly and Thiago would cover all the ground in front of Carrick which would give Carrick space to pick out his trademark passing whilst attacking.

When defending Carrick and Mendy would play in a DM role like they would in a 4-2-3-1 which is essentially what this team line up would do whilst defending put Thiago would drop into central midfield role so it would more likely be a 4-2-1-2-1 when defending.

In this formation (4-3-2-1) there isn't really room for Rooney so I am disregarding him in this example. A perfect signing for this would be Di Maria. Instead of playing as wingers (Di Maria and Kagawa) they would play as LAM/LF and RAM/RF. This will be determined by who is playing so if it is Kagawa they will generally play more in the AM role and rely more on full backs providing width. If for instance Nani is playing then it will be more the LF/RF roles where they play a bit further upfield but not as wide as wingers so the full backs would provide the width again.

Obviously the striker will be RVP.

So this team will start playing from the back and feed it into Carrick. Mendy would drop back behind Carrick if the full backs are attacking but if not then Mendy would join the attack with Thiago. Preferably Carrick would give the ball out to the full backs who would be attacking now or Thiago who would feed it to the 'wingers' or straight to RVP.

To sum this all up the signings we would need for this to work are as follows:
Mendy - Free Agent
Thiago - £15million (I don't know conversion rates so this is an approximate guess)
Di Maria - £20m - £30m
Baines/Coentrao - £10m - £20m

In the worst case this would cost £65m and with the sale of Evra and Rooney it would bring the overall loss to around £20m - £30m

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You've got a few interesting ideas there. But I see a couple of potential issues.

First off I don't think Mendy would be good enough to be first choice straight away. He is a young player who is developing.

Second this formation does take Kagawa away from a more central position which will limit him to a certain extent.

And thirdly i'm not sure how Di Maria would work in that kind of role. I'm not saying he couldn't do it just that he's never played that role before. He has always started quite wide and worked his way into the box by either cutting in or going around his marker. I don't know if he has the touch and vision to play from a slightly more central position. But like I said that not to say he can't. But I would question the sense in buying a player for a role your not 100% sure he can play.

In essence what this team would really line up as is a 4231 with Mendy and Carrick in midfield, Thiago as the central attacking player with Di Maria and Kagawa either side of him and RvP upfront.

But Thiago will drop deeper when defending and Mendy would take some of the defensive work off of Carrick.

I would say though that this system is similar to Bayerns system. Just that you have Schweinstieger and Martinez instead of Carrick and Mendy, Muller instead of Kagawa, Kroos instead of Thiago and Robban instead of Di Maria.

The difference is that Bayern's line up look stronger than ours. And this was the problem I came up with time and time again. If you play 4231 then you need better players than Bayerns or your just a knock off version of them.

Thats why I embarked on trying to find a new tactical approach and came up with the 4321 with a "loose winger" as it was something completely different to everyone else and it brings the best of possession football with defensive solidarity and free flowing creative football and suits our current squad best.

It would allow us to play with just Garay, Strootman and Thiago signing. Which looks like quite a likely trio of signings. It also works well with Zaha who we have already signed and let's us give Buttner the chance to develop with less fear of him being caught out of position as we will always have cover.

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I meant 4-3-2-1 my bad

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If our current squad plus a couple of quality signings can get off to another good start and no key players suffering injuries then we will be a match for any team.
Your starting to sound like Stewart Robson with his vision/tactics when it's simply having great players that are bonded with team spirit which Gary Neville preaches simple as.
Dylan

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19 Jun 2013 07:52:58
I did know that you ment 4321, but like you said when you have the ball Mendy and Carrick sit deeper and Thiago would push forward. This would make the team look more like a traditional 4231 when that happens. And considering we are trying to look at playing with more possession then that would be most the time. The line up would only represent a 4321 when defending. Which is what quite often happens with 4231 anyway.

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Di Maria and Mendy were the only examples I could think off the top of my head that we have been linked with. I would have said Strootman but I was unsure if he was fast enough for this role, he may well be.

The perfect candidate for the RAM/RF role would be Reus but I doubt we'd sign him and the perfect candidate for the Mendy role would be Gundogan but again I doubt Dortmund are willing to sell.

Your loose winger idea is interesting but it would take the team a while to adjust to it and unless you have a tactically intelligent midfield then you could end up confusing your team as much as the opposition. However a midfield of Carrick Strootman and Thiago I feel would understand your formation and flourish under it.

I suppose my formation is like Bayerns but it is slightly deeper whilst defending and doesn't rely on wingers as much in the attack. Bayern do utilise full backs well but it is mainly Robben and Ribery for width. My formation plays to our strengths which is our attacking full backs but we would need a fast lb so preferably Coentrao.

I think Kagawa would play well in this formation in a LAM role but maybe when attacking and if the right winger is more attack minded - This would work well with Bale - then we use the full backs for width again and switch to a 4-3-1-2 with Kagawa CAM/CF.

Overall the dream attacking line up would be
Gundogan
Carrick
Thiago
Reus
Kagawa
RVP

But realistically it probably will be
Mendy
Carrick
Thiago
Kagawa
Di Maria / Gaitan
RVP

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I think 4321 would be too narrow Shappy. It could leave our full-backs very exposed to quick counter-attacks. 4231 works better because you have the 2 outside players in the '3' covering the opposing full-backs and they are also always available to cover the midfield.
4321 is very similiar to 433, but 433 is more structured. I think if you give Nani the free role in the '2' in a 4321 formation, he might just be brilliant in an attacking capacity, but we would be all over the place when the opposition get the ball.
I think of Bale this season when you talk about a free role, but Spurs only had one ahead of him for this to work, therefore Kagawa would have to fall back to midfield so you would end up playing 4411 with a very tight midfield and no cover on the wings.
I totally agree your point about BM having better players. Every system has it's plus and minus points, but if the opposing team has superior players and are disciplined, they will usually win.
No matter what system Moyes plays, he has to get at least 2 strong central midfielders. I just can't see Carrick and Thiago being strong enough. If, as reported we are getting Strootman, this will allow Moyes to play either 4411, 4231 or 433 while always holding a strong, defensive center.
I really can't wait to see how he lines the team out.

J Bones.

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19 Jun 2013 11:00:30
J Bones, did you read my post further down? I explained that the cover on for counter attacks would come from the midfield. And Nani would also be on one wing or the other which would give the double up protection down that wing. Its a fluid system which requires good and intelligent organisation. But if used properly should work very well imo. {Ed004's Note - How about an adaption of both Bayern and Barcelona's style of play? I would worry about this idea as it may take too many changes in the one window as it would require nearly a completely new midfield and a centre back and left back. However, I have been a fan of the 4231 formation for donkeys now well before Bayern winning of the champions league this season. However, at Bayern they play a very rigid 4231 Ribery and Robben are basically wingers but they come in side to shoot or hit the byline and cross to Gomez. They are very hard working but don't dominate games through holding the ball. Whereas, Barcelona are a more fluid team all players interchanging and I think this is why they struggled defensively. How about sorting out this area from both. Adapt the rigidness and discipline of Bayern's defending and the fluid attacking of Barcelona. Now the only midfielder I could see working well in this formation to a high standard that we require is Carrick. Now we would need a centre back that allows us to press high and it looks like Garay is a target. Now he has the pace to cover for Vidic so we can play a high line with this formation. Now onto Evra he is a liability defensively so we would move for one of Baines, Coentrao, or Alex Sandro to replace him all of which offer a very attacking approach. This is were it gets complicated. You are trying to implement a Bayern and a Barcelona approach in the attack. For this the only attacking midfielder we currently have who could play a game were we keep position moving and keep hold of the ball while also offering a direct approach to the game is Kagawa. So I would play him centrally. We would therefore need two more players of similar ability to Kagawa and I would suggest Isco (very unlikely) and Ozil. A forward 3 of Kagawa, Ozil, Isco are all world class or destined to be world class and they can all play in a variety of positions. They are all hard worker bar Isco at times so when defending we will always have a rigid defence who when the times is right will press high up the pitch but other than that will press only in their own half like Bayern tend to do whereas Dortmund and Barcelona try to press everywhere I don't think any fitness levels would allow any team to do that for a full 90 mins as well as being able to attack at pace when needed to. Now the central midfield pairing I would prefer Strootman and Alcantara. However, I think Alcantara could play were Isco is playing and Carrick in the midfield two. That would give us a solid midfield as I reckon Alcantara will surprise many on here about how good he is and Strootman offers us a physical presence. I think Barcelona's main problem is that they don't have a target man, a number 9, who will be in the box and on the last man of the defenders all the time, Messi likes to drift around I expected them to address this with Falcao, or even RVP last season but I dont rate Tito so not surprised to see this happening. This would enable us to keep possession better than Bayern imo, while due to our defense being better than Barcelona's and the fact that we have a focal point in our attack (RVP) it would hopefully give us an advantage over Barcelona. I have not inlcuded Rooney as I am not sure he is fit enough or technically good enough to play this formation. So in's Garay, left back, Strootman, Alcantara and Ozil which is realistic as Ozil is the only one of those players we have not been linked with. Then next season go for an Isco type player with Evra, Anderson, Nani and Rooney out this season, though I'd happily sell Young to raise finances for Isco or someone similar but I can't think of many similar to Isco.}

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Ed004 and Shappy having a conversation. Them keyboards are angry. ;)

REDFAITH

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I understand what you are saying about the midfielders covering counterattacks. I just feel it would leave us too open on the wings. Regarding Nani, a fast counterattacking team could leave both Nani and Kagawa on the opposite side of an attack leaving the other side exposed. I love the way you are always posting different options and formations Shappy rather than just saying we are getting x, why and z and the fact I replied to you shows I have thought about what you were trying to say.
Ed004, Kagawa, Thiago and Nani as a 3 could be devastating. This is only a slight change from what Shappy was proposing. Nani could (and I mean COULD) excel in this role and all we would need is Strootman and Thiago.

J Bones. {Ed004's Note - I think Nani has had enough time at the club unfortunately and if Ferguson couldn't get him consistent I am not overly confident Moyes could}

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18 Jun 2013 22:16:30
MUFC are making an announcement tomorrow at 9am. Could be a player or could be another commercial deal etc

MS

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How do you know?

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I think you'll find it's next seasons fixture list

Alex Fergusons Condom

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It's about the fixtures for next season.

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The fixtures for the coming season are announced at 9am Wednesday.

Red Man

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Its just next season fixture declaration tomorrow. nothing else

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It's probably announcing the BPL fixtures on the website.

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Fixtures?

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18 Jun 2013 22:34:21
There has been endless debates over who we will sign, who we will sell, and which coaching staff will come in. But there hasn't been much said on how we will play next season.

I mean who we buy and sell will be directed by how we are going to try and play next season. So surely that is the more important question. Besides do we really care who we sign or sell as long as we get to see attractive winning football next season right?

Now in the past people have wanted us to imitate Barca's tiki taka style, and now people are crying out for us to copy the germans blend of soild structure mixed with high pressure and flexibility in attack.

But in truth we shouldn't copy anyone. If you try to be someone else all you end up becoming is a poor version of them.

In life it is the innovators who lead the way and not those who follow the latest trend. This directly translates to football. Bayern didn't copy Barca's style they created their own and are now being richly rewarded for it.

So what we need to do is create a new modern identity of our own. And like Bayern did look at Barca and other successful teams and try and incorperate some of what makes them great along with a few new twists to suit your club and make it your own. Bayern have always been a good counter attacking side, now they have work a way into taking Barca's passing possession game and blending it with their own to come up with something completely different yet innovitive and better.

So how would we go about creating a new style of play? well we look at what we have and then try and bring in ideas that will make the most out of what we have.

For example Rafael is excellent going forward so we could look to make use of that strength in some way.

Carrick is at his best Sitting deep and controlling the game through his passing. So we should look to a way of creating him the time and space he needs to play to his best. Maybe that might mean playing a midfield three so as to some of the work load off him and allow him to have that space to work in.

Kagawa has the ability to unlock even the tightest defence, but he needs freedom to do so and the right supoort around him to stretch teams.

RvP is a top goal scorer, but there is a very good creative elemant to his game, this needs to be incorperated into the team.

So how can we bring those elements together as a cohesive unit.

Well we want to play an attractive style of football in keeping with our traditions, this will need to be based around possession as you can't afford to let the best teams have possession. We need to look to impose ourselves on the opposition rather than react to them. Reactive teams will always do well but proactive teams will always win the major competitions.

So let's build from the back. DDG is the obvious choice in goal, his distribution will be the starting point for us to build from the back.

To have a possession based game we will need defenders who have the passing qualities of midfielders. Evans was our most consisitant central defender last season, he also has strong leadership qualities and is growing in stature at the club. Rio and Vidic are getting on and have had injury concerns in the past. We have been linked to Ezequiel Garay and I think he could be the perfect partner for Evans. He is an excellent distributor of the ball and has that vital european experiance we have lacked when Rio or Vidic haven't be available.

Rafael at right back is and obvious choice. He will provide excellent width when going forward but still retains the defensive know how to get back more often than not.

Left back can be a tricky one. Evra could still have a role to play if the team was going to have a more solid centre and have a higher amount of possession. But he isn't a long term option. Buttner has excellent pace and the right attitude. But he needs to work abit on his final ball and his defensive covering. But unless he plays he won't improve these. It could just be the same as when we had Rafael as a youngster and we just had to play him through this learning curve to allow him to blossom. Other options are Baines (although it's clear I don't think he is the best option), Filipe Luis or Bastian Oczipka. Alaba, Alba and Alex Sandro would be high up my list but they are either not available or will cost far too much.

As i've said I think we need to go with a midfield three. Obviously Carrick will be the base player in that three. Having three midfielders will also mean we won't ever be at a disadvantage when it comes to number of bodies in the middle. This means we need two new players who have the drive to get box to box, the technique to keep possession and the ablity to create along with the work rate to do the defensive closing down when not in possession.

I think any two from Strootman, Thiago, Van Ginkel, Paulinho, Gundogan, Modric, Fellaini, Witsel, De Marcos, Clasie or Grenier would be good.

Obviously an more attacking option would need to be paired with a more defensive option to provide balance. Personally i'd go with Strootman or Paulinho with Thiago or Van Ginkel. Although I wouldn't say no to Gundogan and Modric, just that I think they would be harder or impossible to get.

So now we are starting to see the team take shape.
DDG in goal with a back line of Rafael, Evans, Garay, Buttner (or a new signing). Then a midfield of Carrick, Strootman and Thiago.

This gives us the solid base we need with width coming from the full backs but with covering coming from the midfield meaning we aren't over commited.

Now we move onto the interesting bit. Our front three.

Now RvP is the obvious choice to lead the line. I'd play Kagawa in the hole behind him which is his best place and means we have a threat high up the pitch in RvP and a little deeper in Kagawa. This will mean Kagawa can play to his full potential and RvP has someone whom he can link well with.

This of course leaves us in a quandry, as we only have one space left to fill. Now we can either fill it with another striker such as Hernandez which is a good option as it allows him to play high and stretch the defence with his ability to run in behind allowing RvP and Kagawa to find the space created by his pace. But this does make us a little top heavy. Maybe this is a better option if we are chasing a game and need a goal.

The other option is we play another AM, maybe Rooney. This would stop us being top heavy. But again we would have the problem of Rooney and Kagawa wanting to play in the same place or we play them both slightly wider of RvP. But again this isn't playing to either Rooney's or Kagawa's strengths and reeks of trying to crow bar two player into a team.

The problem with both these options though is that we are entirely relying on the full backs for width.

So i've come up with a totally new idea, and i'm not sure yet whether it's genius or madness.

I've come up with a totally new position. and I call it "the loose winger".

The concept of a loose winger is having a player who likes to play wide, but has the ability to either cut in or go wide and can play on either side of the pitch.

This would mean that he doesn't stick to either side but moves from side to side creating space and dragging players with him. He will always remain an option to pass to. And would allow RvP and Kagawa to play in their best positions, and provide the team with width in the final third.

The Key to this system is organisation. For example when the loose winger is on the right then the right full back needs to be more restrained in his movement up field, but like wise on the opposite side the left full back will need to push higher up the pitch to create width on the other side. This means the left sided midfielder will need to sit deeper to cover the left back when this happens. but the right sided midfielder can push on to support the loose winger from a more advanced inside right position. This will be vice versa when the loose winger plays on the left. With the Left full back holding his ground, the left midfielder pushing on to support the loose winger with the right full back pushing high up the pitch and the right midfielder holding his ground to cover him.

This organisation is vital to avoid over commitment going forward and to maintain a strong unit. But at the same time it allows for free movement of the Loose winger, Kagawa and Rvp to use thier attacking prowess to the best of their abilities.

The question is who is best for the Loose winger role. Obviously if your looking to sign some one the Ronaldo or Bale would be top of your list. With Reus not fan behind.

But there is a candidate more closer to home who would be ideal for this role. This of course is Nani.

He has all the abilities required to fulfill this role. He has pace, he can use either foot and play on either side, he can cross and shoot as well as cut inside and play a through ball. He also has shown on a few occasions to link up well with Kagawa during the season.

Yes he has been poor for the last 12-18 months. But he has been in and out of the team and shunted around to make way for other players. When Valencia was injuried and he had a regular place in the team and he had more respoisbilty he revelled in it and was near unstopable. This role would give him the regular football and the responsibity he needs to push him back to those heights.

Also neither Bale/Ronaldo or Reus will be available this summer. and the next best candidate was James Rodriguez and he has gone else where now. So it wouldn't do any harm to play Nani there for a season and if he doesn't step up to the plate then it will have cost us the 8m we are likely to get for him this summer. Then we could look at trying to get Reus or someone else next summer when we would be able to donate more of our budget to it.

Zaha could also be groomed for this role in the mean time as along term option.

So my team for next season would be DDG, Rafael, Evans, Garay, Buttner, Thiago, Carrick, Strootman, Nani, Kagawa and RvP.

So what do you think would be a good way to go next season? and how would you redefine Uniteds style in a more modern way?

Of course this has been Shappy. lol

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18 Jun 2013 23:24:28
This "loose winger" as you call it is absolute genius Shappy, it's the kind of role that's tailor-made for Ronaldo if not then I think Nani would be fantastic in this role with Zaha being edged into it the longer his career goes on
However I don't think we should do it every game as we could get a little predictable i. e. Goes down the left-cuts in, goes down the right-looks for the cross
As good as it is have what you said as one option with Hernandez up front with van Persie and Kagawa just beind or even just the standard 4411 or so
I think with this kind of unpredictability and set-up combined with signing the right players (I think we must sign Ronaldo this summer even though I doubt it) we could be a serious force with the top teams having to adapt to us for a change as oppose to the other way around

Shappy, I hope Moyes reads this and takes note

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Loose winger do you mean you would give someone a free role
Jred

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Buttner I don't feel is solid enough, Nani has probably had his last chance. Wouldn't be too sure about Evans and Garay in the middle either, neither are too combatative. Rooney will be in there I'm pretty sure of that. We will more than likely line up with:

De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Garay, Baines, Thiago, Carrick, Di Maria, Rooney, Kagawa, RVP.

We then will of course have the likes of Strootman, Young, Cleverly etc to come in. I think that team is better than what we have now, however I think the current team is better than what you proposed I'm afraid.

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Great and thorough post, a much-needed break from all the speculation regarding transfers as well as the changes in our coaching staff. The question is whether the side you lined up would be able to challenge for Europe. Would you use Jones and Smalling as back-up for Evans and Garay, or use Jones as a back-up for Carrick/Strootman? Is this a United side without Rooney? And finally, what would you do with our rather "one-dimensional" wingers, such as Valencia and Young? I understand that this is only one of maybe two or three formations that we use, where the other formations might suit players that are not mentioned in your side, but this discussion really interests me. Once again great post, hopefully you will reply.

ZigZag {Ed004's Note - I reckon it is an interesting suggestion but who ever we sign for basically the free role has to be a world class player as ultimately the team is built around him. He will be expected to put in a shift on the wings and due to RVP's lack of speed he will be responsible for playing on the last man of defenders at times so the opposition can not play a high line}

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It's good to see someone else in favor of Nani getting a chance to prove himself under Moyes. I'm in agreement with pretty much all of what you've said. I just hope Utd is able to obtain the quality centre mids that they've desperately needed. Would definitely be happy with Strootman and Thiago, although I'm not holding my breath.

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Sent me to sleep with that post last night!

You're describing a 4-3-3, the top 3 will move about, just one will tend to the wings (RVP is pretty good moving out to the right btw) and one will tend to the no. 10 (Kags).

I also think Welbeck and Zaha would flourish in a front 3.

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19 Jun 2013 07:39:31
Jred, its not a free role per say. Kagawa would have more of a free role. The loose winger would be free to move from side to side as they see fit to find space. But they would always be starting off in a wider role, be it on the left or right. The key to it is to give Kagawa more freedom but not losing width (which has always been a key element to our team historicly).

The system gives us an extra man in the key midfield area allowing us to have more control over the game. But that then leaves you with one less attacker. So you need to make that attack more fluid. So with Kagawa given the free role behind RvP that leaves Nani to float from side to side to maintain some width thus stretching the opposition defence. Like I said its key that the loose winger starts wide so the play isn't too narrow and so that he doesn't take up Kagawas space.

Fresh, this isn't what I think will happen, more a new way i've tried to devise to bring a new dimension to our game and to try and be innovative. Every way you try to play 4231 it comes out like a poorer version of what Bayern are doing. And that's my issue with that. If we are to be the best in europe then we need to find a completely different way of playing. Bayern have made a system their own and took Barca to pieces. But they didn't try and copy Barca as they would have lost as no one can out play Barca at their own game. And we can't out play Bayern at theirs. So I think we need to come up with something totally different.

No name (i wish you left a name), thanks for the compliments. If we can master this way of playing then it shouldn't mean we need to switch it around too often. Barca never set up any different, Bayern hardly ever change the way they set up. This is because the impose their style on their opponants. Also I don't think it would become too predictable as you are giving Nani and Kagawa more freedom to find the weak links in the oppisition and then exploit it. And the whole point of having someone like Nani play this role is because he is comfortable with both feet. When playing on the right he both goes wide and cuts in and shoots with his left foot. The only more predictable thing is when on the left he is less kean to go wide and cross with his left foot and likes to cut in more. But that can be worked on to improve that area if need be.

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Regarding the loose winger role, I reckon Mata sounds a perfect fit for a role like that.

I'm not saying for us but this formation would suit Chelsea as they could do this with both Mata and/or Hazard and they would have Ramires - Lampard -Luiz behind

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Shappy
It's more or less a 4-3-3 but if kags is played behind the striker and you then give a player a free role it's 4-3-2 with 1 floating.
Bit unbalanced for me but who knows.
Taarabt plays a similar role
Jred

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19 Jun 2013 10:20:29
ZigZag, like you said its a squad game and sometimes we will line up with different formations. Young could play the loose winger role against lesser opposition. Smalling will be cover at CB Jones can cover CB and play some games in midfield when needed. Valencia is the only problem player. He could play as RB cover and he has played in midfield for his country. And some times we will play with more traditional wingers which would suit him.

Dodgy, I started off with a 433 formation and tweaked it. It's almost impossible to come up with something genuinly innovative. Most are a new twist on an old idea.

Avid, Mata would also be a great option for the loose winger role.

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18 Jun 2013 21:54:29
Who would you rather have as the first league opponent for the following campaign?A newly-promoted side, a mid-table team or a top team?For me a match against a mid-table team at home will be ideal for the first game. For example, Stoke would provide us a good test but it would be easier to get to a winning start in order for Moyes to get some confidence and for the team to start rolling on.

Nicolas_United

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I'm not sure a good mid table side are a good starting opponant. We didn't do so well against Everton last year.

I'd prefer us to play one of the teams who are likely to be relegation candidates as we tend to start slowly. But i'd also rather avoid the newly promoted teams as they are an unknown quantity and are riding on the crest of a wave after their promotion. I'd like to see us play someone like Norwich first game.

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City away. I'd rather we got our toughest game of the season out of the way as soon as possible. Beating a mid-table team will boost Moyes' confidence a little - but beating City would put it through the roof.

That said - I expect us to play Villa in the first game of the season. We rarely have tough starts to the season and Villa seem like the sort of team we usually end up with.

redseven

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Everton, see how Moyes deals with Fellaini

Kai

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Fellaini won't be there

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18 Jun 2013 21:37:45
Hello all, long time reader/admirer of this site, from Gorton as the name suggests :) and enjoy a good debate!

Oh, just like to say well done to all the eds who did a great job creating and monitoring these sites.
Cheers.

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Hello gorton red i'm in denton now but was born and lived on holmcroft road next to mellands
johndenton

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Welcome to the wonderful world of posting with a name, it's the way forward. You'll never look back ;)

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Welcome. I'm originally from Longsight, right on the border with Levenshulme. Gatling Avenue just near Crowcroft Park. We used to go to a youth club at Spurley Hey. Is there still aggro between Gorton and Leve?

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Sounds like a rehab group.

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Welcome, I live in an area more populated with Manchester United fans than any of the previous posters. Kent :) Just to get my "proper" supporter badge I did live for a year in Salford and a year somewhere I have forgotten the name of just by Cheetham Hill. student! And I timed that well, was when they were redeveloping the ground so I didn't even get to see a game at Old Trafford during my time there as couldn't get a ticket!
Invisible STuey

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18 Jun 2013 20:48:22
Gan

AJH's cat Hobbes thinks ngiak has banged his head and has become deluded. Hobbes is worried that ngiak now talks drivel

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Haha good one AJH!

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Who is the third person using AJH's logon commentating on AJH's cat Hobbes.

Eds - do you not have controls in place for this?

Surely AJH should keep his password more secure? Next his ballet teacher will be regaling us with tales about his orthodontist!

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18 Jun 2013 20:07:05
Dylan,
thought i'd post a newer thread as the thread we are using is quite low down, it also gives others including ed004 to have their opinions.

Ok so you would only make 2 signings in Thiago and one of Bale Or Ronaldo, so by that I take it u saw no real problems with our midfield being severely over run last season? Even against very average teams i. e Southampton and West Ham?

The problem I have with only signing those 2 players (very good ones I must add) is it doesn't really sort our midfield out, they will still get over run imo, Now if your expecting Ronnie or Bale to become out and out wingers of old if they joined i'm afraid u might become very dissapointed, granted both can and prob will start in the wing positions but their natural game now has evolved over the last 2 or so years, both are very influental players and there teams basically play football to suit them, in order for us to fully get the best out of one of those players we would have to shell out over £60m for, (although I would begrudge spending that on either, esp Bale) we will too.

The way I see it is, along with Varela and Zaha (who I rate very highly) we should be looking to either add 2 class CM'ers or 2 class wide players.
IMO if we were gunna spend over £60m on Ronnie or Bale i'd much rather see a £40m offer put in for Rues of Dortmund and continue to play with 'out & out' wingers.
If (which I suspect) we wont, i'd much rather see Strootman (lol) and one of Thiago or Cesc brought in and still another wide player. I rate Clevs as a squad player who could become a very important part of the squad over the next few years but that is about it, Ando I have lost faith in now and the same goes for Nani.
Wazza I think needs a move and I think we want to move him, it's somewhat ironic that in 2010 mind games were played by both parties for get him to sign a new contract and now, mind games are again being played although it seems for his departure.

Which brings me onto Our Forwards with Rooney going which imo will happen and for a lot more than being quoted thus far. Players such as Suarez, Falcao and Cavani have done us a massive favour by 1 signing for Monaco and the other two seemingly wanting to go to spain.
it seems at least 2 clubs but maybe up to 4 wanting/needing a marquee striker which could lead to a bidding war and with some big financial powers i. e City, Chelsea and Psg.
I believe Lewi was our number 1 target, but it seems to be playing out like a footballing version of Romeo and Juliette. Him making all kissy faces and apprently declaring his love for Buyern it seems there is only place he wants (although I will admit i've yet to see him directly make any anoucement), so we might see a striker without the high profile name brought in or if none can be found, the money spent elsewhere.

It seems Garay deal is very close which does suprise me a little if i'm honest, defence is the one area barring evra I think needs improving unless one of them is leaving (maybe Vidic) which then I suppose would make sense although I do have doubts about his speed and fitness.
So all in all I think we need a minimum of 3 players and even then that's really pushing it but ideally 4-6.

So my ins would be;

if the money to spend on Ronaldo is really there,
Garay
Baines
Rues
Strootman
Thiago
Lewi
and if no striker can be deemed good enough go with the 3 we have and really sure up the midfield with,
Modric/Marchisso/Gundogan (spelling)

BUT! If which I believe will happen does, because I think we might have a tad more to spend than normal but not much more, plus sales.

My team is;
Garay
Shaw
Strootman
Thiago
Di Maria
p. s I understand if Rooney was sold and no replacement was brought it could leave us short but in Rues, Kagawa, Hernandez, wellbz etc we could get by until one is found.

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Chris the REDman
Once the season is over people soon forget about their own players and become embroiled in compiling wish lists we very quickly start to worry when other clubs make additions.
I'm convinced Fergie, gill, woodward&moyes have nowhere near the restructuring plans you have they don't and very rarely make rash decisions they plan in advance and know the targets and players that need replacing I'm calm and believe this is one of the best squads we've had unfortunately the competitions both domestically and in Europe as intensified and fans are more and impatient and want the quick fix but nobody inc. bayern&Barca are guaranteed success unless their domestic leagues are weak.
Whoever we sign it will be a challenging campaign but I for one sincerely hope we persevere with our policy of buying the 1/2 top class and introducing youth it's far more rewarding don't you think?
Dylan

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18 Jun 2013 21:07:59
A summer of Ronaldo and Thiago would be amazing. Ideally I'd like a more physical midfielder too but would settle for those 2 and be very happy with our business. The majority of our games would see Carrick and Thiago with a fluid front line including RVP, Ronnie, Kagawa and 1 other. Attack minded player in the 75% of games against weaker opposition and Jones anchoring the midfield for the few games we look to play tighter. Jones in this position is a temporary fix for a low volume of games - a sacrifice well worth it to have teams fear our attack.

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Chris -

I'd be very happy with just Thiago and Ronaldo as well.

You mention that we'd struggle on the wings - but I'm hoping that next season we will not be playing with out and out wingers and will instead adopt a system similar to Chelsea.

-----------RVP-----------
Kagawa--Rooney--Ronaldo

- would be an immense attacking line and Carrick and Thiago should have enough between them to both shield the defense and play the ball forward.

I admit this approach would leave us a little short in terms of our squad - but would strengthen our first 11 ten-fold.

The alternative scenario you suggest makes me prefer a summer of just Thiago and Ronaldo even more.

Garay - I think would be unnecessary at this point, Baines - I think is expensive for his age and would rather we signed someone a little younger with a bit more promise, Reus (who I assume you mean by 'Rues') - will 1000% not be leaving Dortmund this summer, Strootman - I think is average, Lewi - is unnecessary if Rooney stays and will not come here anyway, Shaw - would be a good signing ahead of Baines and Di Maria - is a prima dona who, imo, would not adapt well to the EPL or Manchester United.

In short - I'd rather we sign 2 world class players than a bunch of average/good players. If there was a real possibility of us signing, say - Khedira, Thiago, Shaw, Lewandowski (Rooney would be sold in this instance), Isco and Reus - I'd perhaps look at things a little differently.

redseven

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No i'm afraid, i'm not a dreamer, I dnt expect a ronaldo or a bale, but I can see our problems and dnt think the youth is anywhere near ready yet to step up, I agree our whole identity has been built around a great youth system, as has many teams but they still go out and spend the money if they have areas they need improving. We are ni different. Do u know what really winds me up look at buyern if there was ever a club we could and should be like its them, i'm patient but our problems need to be fixed this year more than any over the last 15 years.
This is NOT our best team, it could be argued our best sqaud but knowwhere near our best 11
Chris the REDman

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Club with History and Moral Values don't buy 6 new player in one transfer market (7 with Varela).

Add to that, Moyes won't rush decision. utd just won the league.

3-4 signing max (4 if rooney goes)

- Varela
- good box to box mid
- #8
- Striker, if Rooney go

IMO the wing should be priority next behind patching the midfield. But I don't believe UTD will adress this area this summer.

Zaha his In, Probably Nani out. So it could be very important season for Valencia and Young. Time to step up or leave.

JLBER84

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I don't know which utd you have been watching but if you think we are relatively ok then you obviously wasnt watching the same one I do every week, our midfield at times was non existant only carrick standing out. winning the title doesn't mean everythings ok, some of our football last season was the poorest I can remember in a long time, we need 2 class midfielders a decent winger a left back and a top striker if rooney goes
johndenton

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Chris the REDman
I've previously pointed out that when our team where (severely overrun)!
It wasnt just the midfield but every dept. defending and passing poor all over the pitch but we are quick to blame the midfield yet very rarely mention them in the majority of games we dominate I'm not saying it doesn't need sorting but Thiago forbScholes would suffice
Dylan

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If we dnt improve our wide areas we will get over run again next season, we need that established wide man that will force rhe opposition back redseven, i'm not saying play 442 but if we dnt have the balance right again we will again get over run, ronaldo will demand a more inside forward role, Thiago is very attack minded so just signing those two won't work imo
Chris the REDman

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Chris the REDman -

Whilst he does often enjoy getting up the pitch - Thiago is by no means an out and out attacking player. His ball retention is fantastic (On a par with Scholes, Xavi, etc) and he's more than capable of putting in a good tackle as well.

Suggesting that we need wide men to 'force the opposition back' also doesn't sit well with me. There are plenty of teams around who don't play with out and out wingers who get along just fine. Ronaldo and Kagawa are both capable of going down the outside if needed - but even centrally they pose more than enough of a threat to keep the opposition from swarming forward (would you push up the pitch knowing that Ronaldo, RVP, Kagawa and Rooney were behind you ready to break?).

JLBER84-

My gut agrees with you re the number of singings we're likely to make. That list was written on the assumption that we had £80m + the money for Thiago available and used to illustrate a point.

That said; we need at least 1 midfield player (although I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 come in), another winger (if we're going to persist with wingers, that is), a striker (if Rooney leaves), a left back and apparently have a deal in place for Garay as well. Adding in Varela that has us potentially signing 7.

We signed 6 players last year and 9 back in the 07/08 season. With Moyes coming, I wouldn't be too surprised to see us making a fair few signings.

redseven

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I don't see anywhere near the number of players coming in the OP has listed. We already have two new players in Zaha and Varela, unless there are some major outs I see no more than possibly two first team players leaving and possibyl another three joining. and additional signings to this I see as youth players, time will tell but a lot of people seem to be playing FM on here.
Invisible STuey

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18 Jun 2013 20:06:00
I think that paying mega bucks for CR7 would be a very backward move, looking at past glories, rather than looking forward. It's a shame that we don't appear to have interest in Drexler, he looks really good. I'd settle for Thiago, Fillaini/Mendy, Shaw and Drexler over CR7 any day. I loved his play when he was at United, but his egoism and all round smarmyness make him a really annoying individual. He's like an overage boy band member. Cracking footballer though he is, I think we should be looking for players of 26 and under.
Mik"""
dear mr mik
ngiak is proud of you
even ngiak could not have said it better
Manchester United has never. to this second. made a bid for Ronaldo
ngiak can almost guarantee that
and in all likelihood it will never happen
how do you know? where are your contacts? they ask
ngiak has proven himself in both number or signings and the approximate amounts in previous seasons
rusty, yes, but the process of getting the legal and financial protocols always alerts ngiak to a transfer
not like some here who can read sir Alex's and some players minds
gan

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Hmmm. i'm lost for words. It sounds like a interesting post, can somebody explain me what it really means?

Singh

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Singh

Gan/Ngiak appears to be claiming that he would know if the financial or legal protocols to buy Ronaldo had started and he says they haven't.

Secondly he is again saying Ronaldo is a prima donna without any evidence and against what our great manager recently retired thought.

It can only be described as nonsense, again.

Red Man

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Lol. thanks redman

singh

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Sitting on the fence I really can't see why anybody would not be happy so see Ronaldo back, an immense player for us, an ego for sure, but he never caused any problems whilst he was here did he? OPn the flip side I keep seeing people saying he has at least 5 years at the very top left and twaddle liek Bale will lose his pace in 3 years and not even last as logn as Ronaldo, people have crystal balls it seems? I would lov eto see Ronaldo back at the club regardless of the price. however like RVP I see it as strengthening us for 3/4 years and IF it were to happen, not at the cost of forgoing other young talent. let's not forget Ronaldo/Cantona were only with us for about 4 seasons anyway, no re-sell value but another few years of what we had before, I would be happy. however I would be pleasantly shocked if this were to happen, whether as I expect it is guess work on Penguins part or not I don't see this transfer happening for various reasons
Invisible Stuey

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People who claim Bale will lose his pace in a few years need to look at Di Natale, his acceleration is unbelievable, similar to Messiand Di Natale is about 35.

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18 Jun 2013 19:58:24
Great potential however most people on here don't have the patience they have a long wish list of fantasy players who will block his development.
The modern fan!
Dylan"""
dear mr Dylan
ngiak applauds you
this was ngiak's point
some of the responses to your post are typical of the people here
give our youngsters more playing time! ngiak hears them saying
they have great potential, they continue crooning
and the next sentence they say. after buying some epl unproven fancy name
ngiak is sad to see the new generation impatient man united fan speak so ill of the traditional ethos of the club
gan

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18 Jun 2013 20:26:24
We all want to see youngsters to be given chances but its a tough balancing act, if you throw them in at the deep end then and they don't live upto expectations then that can be hugely detrimental to their development. So you need players who are ready made for the first team then have young players as part of the squad. That way they can be given game time in rotation with the more senior players. Then if they seize that oppertunity then great.

Like I said its a very fine balancing act. So we need both more senior first teamers and good youngster in a squad.

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Look at the abuse Cleverley, Welbeck and Evans have taken. The defence rests.

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"Fantasy players who block the development of youngsters"

That is the fantasy not the purchase of top class players. In nearly 45 years of supporting the club I have seen many many youngsters heralded as the next big thing, good players not purchased to allow these young players to come through. Many look brilliant when young but don't take the step up.

The simple fact is that very very very few are good enough to play in the premier league let alone for the top teams and then to play for us they have to be good enough to be the best in Europe as well. It isn't impossible but very difficult indeed, yet still some on here expect this magic conveyer belt to pop another couple of stars onto the team sheet, probably conveniently so our owners don't have to spend, no retooling of course. Yes they can come through and I am totally committed to encouraging progression through our youth system but simply they have to be good enough. If they are not good enough, no amount of making room will make them good enough and that would spell decline if we don't strengthen with sufficient quality in the right positions

Red Man

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18 Jun 2013 19:38:31
Chances of thiago coming to us, very low after that performance. Half of the clubs will be after him now!
Nomidfield

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A negative post from no midfield after a target plays well in a match. If he had played rubbish you probably would have said he isn't good enough. Players aren't signed on the back of one performance they are scouted for months.

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Very true nomidfield I expect most of Europes big clubs were barely aware of him and had no idea how good he actually is. Now that cat is out the bag expect a flurry of clubs to offer ridiculous transfer fees that a minnow like Manchester United can not possibly match for a player that actually has a minimum release clause and is already at one of the worlds elite clubs. The guy wants to play more games. From the interviews I have seen with him he comes across as very confident, ambitous and more importantly intelligent. IF we meet the release clause AND it is true he has decided to leave dotn shoot me but I actualyl think we have a very good chance of getting him. There are only three other clubs for me with the same standing and equal history of ours who could also make a move:
1) Real Madrid - can't see this happening. then again Figo
2) AC Milan - Well he was born in Italy and his father played there, he doesn't appear to have any emotional ties to the country though
3) Bayern - The only one that worries me due to just how successful they have been in Europe the last couple of years and the new manager of course. And personally I think he could and would get in there starting eleven. hopefully due to his current situation he doesn't think the same.
SO unless he does choose money or lifestyle of a City over the size of a club. which from his interviews at least doesn't appear shall be the case I think we have a pretty good chance of getting him
Invisible STuey

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I don't think he would get into Bayerns starting 11 when you look at the quality of their midfield - all of these would start over him :

Schweinsteiger
Gotze
Martinez
Muller
Kroos

He would be sixth in the pecking order which is further down then he is at Barca

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Invisible STuey -

Bayern's midfield has way too many top class players for a sensible player to want to move there.

Thiago is good - but I'm not so sure that he'd be first choice at BM and instead believe they'd adopt some sort of constant rotation system which would leave all of the midfielders unhappy. As such - I can't see them going in for Thiago (strikers should and probably will be their top priority) - nor could I see Thiago wanting the move.

Nomidfield -

As others have said - all of the top clubs with enough draw to take Thiago away from us will have been well aware of his ability for some time. The fact that he has, in effect, done what they already knew he was capable of - will be of little consequence.

It will - however - lead to the press linking him with Arsenal, Chelsea and City in tomorrow morning's papers. I imagine the 'stories' have already been written and the 'quotes' from 'club sources' are being checked by the legal teams right about now.

Ultimately we know little of his situation. He may or may not want to move. We may or may not be interested. Barca may or may not be obliged to sell for E18m due to his game time this season.

I expect all will become clear over the next month or two - but rest assured that his performance tonight will not hinder our chances of signing him.

redseven

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Good point STuey. I shall ignore GDS usual crtisizm as I didn't think the post was negative. It is realistic.
But as you rightly said STuey, I think we stand a chance of landing him, it is just that there might be more competition now.
Hopefully we can be successful in this one.
Nomidfield

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Lol so the guy has played 20 something games for Barca this season and you think other big clubs did not notice him. After all we made a bid a couple of year ago and he is not some hidden gem that has just surfaced.

This will all come down to if we want to be proactive in putting a bid in. The reality is we make very few bids and a lot of players linked to us in media reports are potentially not a priority. I hope we are serious about Thiago and get moving.

Shahram

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18 Jun 2013 23:31:23
Dave do your magic, that is all

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Bayern do of coruse have a great side Avid. Just my opinion and I am biased as I have loved watching Thiago since the U21 tournament before the one just finished. I think Gotze will play wide probably and out of the other four, of course they are all top top players but I think potentially he is actually better than ALL of them, and currently, given games he is already better than Muller just without the consistency and intelligence in th efinal third and streets ahead of Kroos already. If we are lucky enough to get him I think we will see that within six months I really really do think this could be the biggest signing we have made in a long time.
Invisible Stuey

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18 Jun 2013 19:10:42
Eds. Can you please clear some transfer rumours. because it sounds like where going to miss out on a lot of transfer targets. Its all quiet on the united front. Av heard thiago will stay at barca, strootman will go to Milan, ronaldo will stay at Madrid, bale will have 1 more year at spurs. Looking like a disappointing transfer summer when all our rivals spending big

Marm

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Correct and we've all bought our season tickets!

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Chill out guys it's not that bad. Plenty of clubs haven't spent yet. There are so many stories out there, it's hard to tell but Strootman definately said at the U21s he wants to come to the premier league and Thiago just yesterday said he wants to leave Barca so I don't know where you're getting your info but it certainly contradicts what i've heard.

Kai

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18 Jun 2013 18:33:36
I m sure thiago has price up with this hatrik. I hope he don't get motivated to continue at barcelona

Rodio17

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One game makes no difference to a player's price. And, if anything, surely it'd reinforce his desire to leave? He can score for fun for the U21s but there's no prospect of getting in the first team at Barce?

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Im not completely sure but isn't it set at 18m euros til august 1st

DIscountdave

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Barcelona would certainly like the price to go up! However one of there directors has already talked about the release clause. so if a team matches it and Thiago does indeed decide to leave Barca, there is nothing they can do about it if he decideds to join the paying club. if
Invisible Stuey

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Please read inbetween theblines. I know very well about his 18m release clause. So it can't be increased. All I mean to say is his value in the eye of barca coaches and other teams being interested at that price. ( even arsenal can afford it)

Rodio17

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18 Jun 2013 18:32:38
Que man city and chelsea linked with thiago in tomorrows tabloids.
Chris the REDman

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18 Jun 2013 18:15:56
That first half hat-trick might just be the worse thing Alcantara has ever done from a United point of view. : (

Cue bidding war.

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18 Jun 2013 18:15:28
Guys just thinking with Neymar signed for Barca, what about tello? I think he could do well for us and would be a step up from our current wingers? Obviously he will need some work on consistency but when I've seen him for Spain under 21s and Barca he's been impressive. Also do you think he'd be too expensive? Cheers

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Personally he was the only player I found dissapointing in that Spain side. Came with a fair bit of hype but his final ball and decision making was very Nani/Walcott like to me, is that an age experience thing or a talent thing? Personally no thanks, I would take any one of that Spain midfield of Illeremandi, Koke, Thiago and Isco, but not Tello
Invisible STuey {Ed004's Note - I 100% agree with that}

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I feel abit sorry for Tello to be honest. He has been one of Barca's better players (excluding the obvious Xavi Ineista and Messi). But he likes to opertate from the left hand side but has been shunted over to the left to make way for the impressive Isco.

He needs to work on a few elements of his game as he is not the finished atrical yet. But he is slightly different to most who come through the Barca youth system as he is abit more proactive with the ball and tries to make things happen rather than be patient and build things slowly. This does result in him losing the ball abit more often than those around him though.

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He is a very good player and no way Barca will part with him. Him and delafou (spelling) are going to stars and his release clause is very high.

Shahram

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19 Jun 2013 07:48:32
I read somewhere that he has a release clause of around 8.5m which Barca are desperatly trying to negotiate out of his contract by offering him a new deal. But I don't know how true that is. But its irrelavent if Tello doesn't want to leave. And considering he got more game time than Thiago last season he is quite happy at Barca. Next season might be different though with Neymar coming in and taking his place. But if he's signed a new deal by then then the low release clause will have gone and you'll have to pay closer to 20m for him.

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18 Jun 2013 18:05:13
Eds is there any reason my posts from last night didn't make it onto the page?

Paso {Ed004's Note - I dont know what it was about so can't answer that}

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They were just responses to others questions. One about dortmund/lewandonski/bayern and others about our midfield issues. No need to chase it up just thought I may have offended an ed or something and so was banned.

Thanks for the quick response.

Paso

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18 Jun 2013 17:56:51
Well that first half has sent Thiago's value up a wee bit

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It can't go up if there is a clause can it?

Brendan81

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No it hasn't.

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If he has a release clause it wont

Ste.

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18 Jun 2013 17:42:42
3 goals from Thiago thankfully doesn't add value to his price, however it may mean more teams will act on their interest in him or Barcelona will offer him something (game time) realising what they're losing out on.

Really hope we sign him!

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18 Jun 2013 18:11:40
Im sure Barca have seen enough of him to make their decision

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18 Jun 2013 17:41:01
Thiago. Hat-trick. Sign him up. He just needs more playing time and he'll blossom. Thiago needs United. United need Thiago.

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18 Jun 2013 17:19:10
Thiago having a pretty decent game so far, pulling the strings and got the opener of course

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18 Jun 2013 16:36:56
Just been looking at videos of Nick Powell and I must say the boy has a wicked shot in both feet. Future United great

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Great potential however most people on here don't have the patience they have a long wish list of fantasy players who will block his development.
The modern fan!
Dylan

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That is my greatest fear Dylan. Hope he is given enough time to develop, be it at the club or on loan. Can see him playing as a 2nd striker or CAM. Seems Wigan are interested. A premier league loan move or championship, which will be better?

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A good loan next season would do him the world of good IMO. Then come back the following season and be eased in slowly, he looks a real talent. My only worry is he stays fit and get's enough game time.

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I believe he will become a midfield player not quite the guile for a no. 10 but a great presence and ability.
Would be saving us a massive amount of money if he comes through the pre season tour
Dylan

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18 Jun 2013 18:33:18
Dylan he isn't ready for the first team yet. He needs a loan. Of course long term he has a future at the club but young players have to be managed properly and not end up injury prone burnt out wrecks by their mid twenties like Owen from playing too much football too young. MrE

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Dylan, please can u elaborate on 'most people'? From what I've seen on here is nothing but praise for Powell. ? Most think he needs a loan for first team action in the way of Cleverly or Welbeck.
I personally think he is a better prospect than both! And look forward to his development.
I was very disappointed when SAF said he intends on using him as a Midfielder. For me, he is a forward. I think he'd blossom off a main striker. It's strange, but I feel he has a certain swagger that sees him perform best when taking centre stage. A bit like the goal he scored in the playoff for Crewe when he knew the world was watching that game purely to see what all the fuss was about Powell, and why united were keen to sign him (amongst the other top clubs).
A loan to Everton if they sell Fellaini would be perfect IMO.

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MrE

I agree with a lot of what you say but I think some of our younger players (Powell is a prime example) do need more game time than they have been getting to help them develop. The problem with loans and reserve football is the standard doesn't challenge them so they don't develop as much as they should. You only have to look at De Gea and Rafael to see how quickly players can develop when they are in the pressure cooker of first team football.

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18 Jun 2013 19:56:25
Darklard difference is De Gea was playing in the Spanish top flight as a teen, Powell was playing the English fourth division. Its a huge jump. Add in his injury issues and I think a loan to a top championship or lower prem club would do him a world of good. But it has to be a club where he will play regular. No point sending him somewhere he won't play. MrE

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There was the old maxim "If you are good enough you are old enough". Even still I would say there are a lot of English players hyped up that don't make it, and usually I think it is because they actually aren't good enough we over hype them as we would love a good British player to come through. And it isn't just about buying fantasy players that stops there progress, look at Barca and many of the top German clubs at the moment they have plenty of top young local talent within them, and it isn't as bad as we think in this country either if you ask me. Our U21s were awful, but look at the plaeyrs that could have played: Welbeck, Jones, Chamberlain, Wiltshire, Shaw being a few. i'm not saying we are not behind other nations, that is partly as we under perform at major championships but there is top young talent within the premiership, and I would rather have a big signing than giving a youngster a chance that isn't quite good enough. Not sayin gthat is the case of Powell at all, not seen enough of him and I think he looks pretty promising actually. If he stays free of injury and is good enough he will make it, simple as that
Invisible stuey

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18 Jun 2013 15:33:41
Does anyone else see Phil jones playing midfield next year? Every time I see him there it's like watching a young Roy keane, and who know with a bit of work on his finishing he could be our box to box midfielder, I think jones sitting deep with thiago further forward would be a great pairing! Your thoughts guys?

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At this point in time he is not technically gifted enough with the ball at feet to play in a modern midfield IMO. His passing/control will need to improve unless he just sits behind 2 more technical CM'ers.

Personally I'm still hoping he is the long term replacement for Vidic as I think he could make a real quality combative CB in the future.

I'm sure some will disagree with me though.

HB

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18 Jun 2013 16:12:22
Hey guys,

Can anyone point to the negatives for pushing the boat out for both Isco and Thiago. I feel there's a reason why City and RM are both trying to get their services. Isco, Thiago and Kagawa as an attacking midfield with Carrick sitting behind them would be very interesting. Thoughts gents?

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Im not sure he is technically good enough to be a regular cm. He can certainly do a job there against certain opposition but I think long term he will be a cb.
I do think he needs to be played more consistently in one position regardless of what position moyes has in mind for him or I dnt think he will reach his full potential IMO

BABY FACED ASSASIN

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18 Jun 2013 16:21:14
Personally I see him playing in midfield next season so that he can improve his ability with the ball and his positioning. I think he'll play games as an achoring midfielder offering a defensive shield infront of the defence in some games.

But I think long term he'll drop back into defence in a season or two's time once Rio and Vidic have moved on.

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18 Jun 2013 16:43:54
Gary, Thiago is an achieveable target as he has a fixed fee. But Isco would be a bidding war. And with Real Madrid and City interested we would sadly lose. If Isco wants to stay in Spain then he'll choose Madrid, if he wants money and the chance to work with his old boss he'll choose City. He is so good he'll be first choice where ever he goes so he doesn't have to worry about that. Unfortunately there isn't an angle for us to work with him that can't be bettered by City or RM. So on this occasion we will have to accept that he is beyond our reach. But there are other options available to us if we want.

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A first team of DeGea, Rafael, Garay, Vidic, Shaw, Carrick, Strootman, Isco Kagawa, Thiago, RVP would be very very good in my eyes, shame we have no chance of Isco.

Brendan81

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18 Jun 2013 17:14:02
He's far too good to be wasted at centre back. People seem to think he'll make a good Vidic/ Terry type throw themselves at anything defender when that type is dying out. He'd be best played in a midfield three.

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All you Strootman fans must be wondering what's going on when his agent pleading for a move to England
Not the sort of thing that would be happening if a deal is already in place with us!
Dylan

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"Pleading"? Dylan you do talk some guff.

TK-Red

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I'm a bit bored with the endless debates about technique for midfield players. Yaya's technique has some big flaws in it but he's an excellent midfielder because he can destroy opposition moves and he has huge drive and energy. Khedira's technique has improved over the last two years but still isn't a patch on some.

For me, Jones' drive and commitment demands a midfield position. He pushes games forward and that is what midfielders are meant to do. He also does a very good job of getting into the box. His technique needs some work, but it isn't a million miles away from being good enough for the sort of role he would play in midfield.

He would be a superb engine-room for the likes of Kagawa and Thiago to play in front of.

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Personally I agree Jones isn't technically gifted as a central midfielder, but as another poster said does he have to be? I think in some games he looks excellent there, mainly ones where we are playing really good opposition and he does an almost man for man job on them. Other games he looks a bit lost when seeing the ball in crowded areas. I think he can be a world class centre back, not sure about a world class central midfielder but he can certainly be very effective there in the right type of game.
Invisible stuey

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DarkLard08

I totally disagree with your opinion of Yaya's technique. I think he is a top all rounder, some of his long balls and through balls are sublime and he scores technically proficient goals at vital times.

Jones doesn't have these abilities yet although he does have time to learn obviously. Like I said above though, I see him at CB in the long term - maybe a fill-in DM at times in the mean time (like big CL games) but hopefully only with 2 better 'footballers' alongside him.

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18 Jun 2013 14:54:47
just a quick one for eds, have we shown any actual interest in Yohan Cabaye? This whole Joe Kinnear calling him yohan kebab thing surely will have upset him and a move may be on the cards?

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But not to united. He's not good enough.
Nomiudfield

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I agree nomidfield, not for our first team but I do think he's a better squad player than we have currently ie, cleverley, anderson.

jessop1982

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Does he come with chips?

Ste.

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Don't let Suarez near him!

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Disagree Jessop, I think both Cleverly and Anderson are as good as Cobaye and without injuries and a run of games the latter is certainly better
Invisible STuey

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18 Jun 2013 14:16:02
I think some on here are using the term world class a little too much at the moment, 'we shouldn't sign ronaldo as we could get 3 world class players for that' is all I have heard.

I'm sorry but you can't get near that. I don't class any of the transfer targets this year as being world class except Fabregas and Marchisio. Maybe Alacantra and Isco will become world class but for those thinking Strootman, Baines and Garay are then you are deluded. Even Di maria who I am a fan of is not world class.

I honestly don't think I could turn down buying Ronaldo for those three. I would rather Ronny and Alacantra than the other 3 and Thiago. Unless £80m would see us sign Ozil, Modric and Hummels then i'm sorry but Ronaldo it is.

1redarmy

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Yes world class is a word banded about too often but to say you'd prefer Ronaldo and Thiago to Strootman, Baines, Thiago and Garay.

I mean for god sake signing Thiago and Ronny would make us great attacking but we'd still have a weak midfield and a massive hole in defence in the shape of Patrice Evra. Do you only think about attacking qualities as world class? Barca or Bayern would still destroy us because of this.

And finally can every one get it out of there heads that Ronaldo is coming back to MU this year. The only way he'll be heading back is if he runs down his contract and that is not this summer!

And anyone who thinks there is the Ronaldo money saved. Don't be rediculous. That money is in the Americans pockets.

Red Joe

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Our midfield needs strengthening, but one of the main reasons barca destroyed us was the way saf set up the teams against them. We tried to play an open game against the best team in the world. Hopefully, if we do meet again, we will not be so naive.
Nomidfield

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Agree with Red Joe and I don't see what this has to do with the phrase 'world class' anyway? I'm not sure many poster's think those 4 come under that title, I sure don't.

HB

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Ive not seen any1 suggest the players u mentioned being worldclass mate.
Chris the REDman

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Couldn't agree more Nomidfield.

J Bones.

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Everyone says oh I would rather have 3 world class players than ron but have you seen the players we can buy? Its like people think if we don't sign ronaldo we can just pick any 3 players.

1redarmy

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Again 1redarmy, I haven't seen many posts saying that? I don't think most sane people think there's any chance of us signing 3 world class players in any transfer window - it's never been done. I just think people would rather see all the necessary areas addressed, rather than only 1. {Ed004's Note - I reckon Anderson, Nani, Tevez, Hargreaves and I think maybe Tosic? Come close I'd be happy with 4 signings like that. Garay, Strootman, Alcantara and Di Maria seem likely}

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I partly agree as it is bandied about too often, but its opinion really isn't it 1redarmy? For example I wouldn't actually of the names you mention as being world class actually is even though a very good player, yet one of the players you said currently isn't I actually think is. Vandied about too easily I agree but what quantifies a player being world class anyway?
Invisible Stuey

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That was a great summer Ed004 and I hope for similar this year! But there still aren't 3 'world class' players in that group IMO. Maybe 1, maybe 2, maybe 0, depending on your definition of WC.

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18 Jun 2013 13:49:57
I believe our summer signings will be Strootman, Thiago, Garay and Gaitan. What do you think Ed?

MUFC20 {Ed004's Note - I expect similar to that}

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18 Jun 2013 17:19:42
I've been one of the most vocal on here about instead spending 80 million on Ronaldo instead spending it on three top class players. But in my ideal world i'd sign Vidal, Fabregas and Lewandowski. Which would massively improve us. Realistically I expect different signings. MrE

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18 Jun 2013 13:13:14
Today's front cover of Spanish newspaper SPORT has claimed that Barcelona's Thiago has informed the club he wishes to leave in the summer and that he is currently looking over offers from two Premier League clubs.

And Spanish freelance journalist Rafael Hernandez believes that the move would suit both parties and can see Thiago blossoming at Old Trafford.

"I think Thiago leaving is imminent, " he said.

"He is unsatisfied with Tito Vilanova and his playing time is indeed disappointing. I don't blame him.

"Manchester United is the best move for him, I've no doubt. He probably fancies Bayern more because Guardiola is there but at United he has the chance to be one of the star players and the team needs someone like him.

"But he'll hardly sign and start right away playing well like Mata did for Chelsea, because Thiago offers more control and pace to the entire team, Mata works differently - hopefully United will understand that.

"After his adaptation he's going to become one of the best players in the squad, maybe even one of the best in the world.

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18 Jun 2013 13:08:15
Looks as though it's between the 2 Manchester clubs for Thiago, let's just hope he chooses us to make the most out of his career and not the money to be sat on a bench.

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18 Jun 2013 13:03:25
Is there any interest in Cabaye? I remember reading a few weeks ago about him wanting to play for united and with Kineears latest comments possibly making room for a summer transfer? I know he isn't the biggest name or one mentioned on here but think he would be a quality addition to the squad with his technical ability especially if we are investing in unproven (but quality) young talent

Thanks

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18 Jun 2013 12:50:27
Is there any interest from Utd in Victor Wamyama this window. His name got chucked about a bit in January. Seen that Arsenal have been linked with him this time round, but I'm sure if he wanted to, Moyes could use his Celtic connection to his advantage.

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Don't you get it its similar to X factor once your off the telly your forgotten about especially on here
Dylan {Ed004's Note - Or if everyone is not talking about you must not be any good (strootman) some fans are really naive and judgemental}

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Lol Ed004, naming no names of course ;)

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18 Jun 2013 12:27:52
Looks to me as though the Ronaldo rumours now will come to a head. If he doesn't sign this 31 million Euro deal per year then he is definitely leaving. But if he doesn't sign then he is leaving. Glad this will all be coming to its end to be honest!

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18 Jun 2013 14:57:37
Glad you kind of cleared that up?

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18 Jun 2013 11:17:51
Ed's do you think the reason why we aren't interested in Isco is because he plays in a position Kawaga and Ronney already occupies? Or something else?

O_o {Ed004's Note - I don't know the clubs thinking in not attempting to sign Isco}

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I think we are but probably don't think he would join us because of his desire to play for his old coach or wanting to stay in Spain for RM.

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18 Jun 2013 11:15:38
Hi Ed's I'm concerned we have no clear favoured formation. Assuming Ronney stays we are still met with the issue of how to accommodate Ronney and Kawaga in a 4-2-3-1.

How do you expect Moyes to set up the team next year? And in what way do you expect formation to impact our transfer activity? What are your thoughts on this? Cheers.

K Red {Ed004's Note - I expect it to be a 4231 with Kagawa and either Di Maria/Gaitan both coming inside with Rooney central but all players will interchange allowing our full backs to provide the width (hopefully Rafael and Baines) with Strootman and either Alcantara/Carrick. And then all 3 of them in the big games}

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So young Valencia Wellbeck and Zaha are in for an exciting season!
Dylan {Ed004's Note - Yes because we will play the same squad weekly even if players are injured or suspended and will never ever make subs.}

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Ok Dylan honest question, wot do u think needs improving? All I read from u is post shooting down every1's opinions on signings, so how much do u think needs spending and on what areas?
Chris the REDman

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In theory maybe but in reality a player whose been purchased for large amounts expects to be first choice Sir Alex had the respect from his squad Moyes needs to build his so doubt he would want a City or a Chealse problem dealing with premadonnas (spelling)who cause problems when left out
Dylan

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Chris the REDman
A Scholes replacement (Thiago)
Bale or Ronaldo and that would be it.
However if Evra or Anderson are sold then we'd be forced to buy a l/back but I'd give Powell an opportunity in midfield and I believe he will produce the goods.
If Rooney goes another matter but personally I don't see much movement.
What do you think will happen?
Dylan

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Dylan, I would like to see Powell play more, but I also think we will play with three centre mids this season, meaning potentially Carrick, Thiago and Kagawa, with Cleverley, Jones and Powell as back up. That way, Powell would play more games, plus he was injured for a while last season. I would be happy with Thiago, Di Maria, Garay and Sanchez, with Nani and Anderson sold.

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18 Jun 2013 10:54:47
Right let's talk about Leighton Baines and why he might not be the right choice for us.

Everyone seems to have Baines as their first choice to replace Evra, and I don't. In fact I would be devestated if we signed Baines. Don't get me wrong I think he has been an excellent footballer for Everton. But that's the point, I don't think he would fit into a more modern attacking team which I want us to be.

There is a stat that will tell you that Baines has one of the highest assist rates over the last few years. Now although this is true it doesn't tell you the full story.

So let's look at what he does at Everton. Moyes favoured formation is a more ridged 4411. This system relies a lot on overloading the opposition full back. He uses Coleman and Baines to double up with Pienaar and Mirellas on the opposition full back. Mirellas and Pienaar pull the full back in field then Coleman or Baines go around the outside un marked and when given the ball have time and space to pick out a cross. And with players like Jelavic and Fellaini playing in the middle there is always a strong player waiting to win the ball in the air. This is why Baines gets a lot of assists, the team set up gives him time and space to cross the balk unchallenged and with players like Fellaini and Jelavic those accurate crosses will not give the opposition defenders much chance. I mean if you can accurately get the ball to Fellaini's head how many defenders can stop him. This gives Baines a very healthy but not entirely fair number of assists.

This is an acceptable way for a team such as Everton to play, they are expected to be a defence first approach and as such playing such a ridged system works well for them.

But we are not Everton, we are Manchester United and as such are expected to play in a much more expansive way. This means we expect more from our full backs in an attacking sense. Baines only gets around his man with the aid of someone else pulling him away from Baines. Baines has neither the pace or a trick in which to beat a man in a one on one situation, this is why he was converted from a winger to a full back early in his career. Like I said this is fine in an Everton like set up when he will always have someone infront of him to help him overload the full back. But he won't beat anyone in a one on one situation which severly blunts the treat he poses from the left hand side.

There for if we were to sign Baines then we would need to play a similar system to Everton to get the best out of Baines. I don't think Kagawa would work well infront of Baines as he isn't a run with the ball type player like Pienaar or Osman are. A left and side of Baines and Kagawa would lack pace and penetration. So you would have to either play Young there or sign someone else just to accomedate Baines. So if we didn't sign anyone to play infront of Baines that would see a ridged 4411 with Baines and Young down the left and Rafael and Valencia on the right with RvP upfront with Kagawa behind him. So say now Baines is able to work with Young to overload the full back and get in his trade mark crosses. Great, but now he has RvP and Kagawa to aim for. RvP is good enough in the air but its certainly not playing to his strengths and Kagawa isn't good in the air and certainly won't be beating Premier league centre backs for high balls. So now he gets his crosses in but without the ariel prowess of Jelavic and Fellaini his crosses won't be half as potent.

So you can see that as good a player as Baines is maybe he isn't the right player for us to move forward with.

We need a modern full back, a player who will do his defensive work but someone who offers a genuine attacking threat by themselves out wide. If you look at all the best modern full backs you get names like Evra, Dani Alves, Contrao, Marcelo ect. All these players have a couple of things in common, first they are all able to beat a man one on one with either pace or with a trick, and second all former wingers. We need to be looking for a more modern full back who will allow us to use more expansive formations.

I know there is a lack of quality options available. But maybe we are looking in the wrong place. Like I said the best modern full backs alk started off as wingers where they learned the attacking instincts and abilities currently required. So maybe we should look for a player who currently opperates as a winger but has the strong defensive abilities that would stand them in good stead if we were to convert them into a full back. One player who I think would do well at that is Andre Ayew. He has pace and ability to beat his man in a one on one, he has good crossing ability but is also a good passer of the ball. So going forward he is strong, then he is a strong lad and is a very good tackler and has good reading of the game. I think he is a player who can be a good winger but could become a great modern full back. But that's just an idea and an alternative option and not one we need to nessisarily go for.

But my point is that Baines is not a good tactical fit for our team. He would be a step backwards in terms of footballing progression. Add to that his age and cost and it starts to look like a awful transfer.

We need to be stepping forward into the new age of modern football not dusting off ideas from the past. {Ed004's Note - Right firstly I am not sure how signing Baines who is solid defensively is a step in the wrong direction. We will have IMO the best defence in the league if we signed Garay and Baines along with De Gea, Rafael and Vidic with only Bayern ahead of us if they sign a cb. Secondly you don't create the most chances in Europe through just hoofing the ball into the box. I honestly can not see Rooney being sold I reckon he will stay now if that is the case we have two players who are good in the air for Baines to aim at. RVP is good in the air people seem to forget his headed goals vs Spurs and Southampton etc and that season were Rooney scored near 40 goals there was a stage were he scored 8 headers in a row. Also Baines can play low hard driven crosses for Hernamdez and Welbeck is a tall lad. Baines is also very clever when going forwards. I have seen him get to the byline numerous times this year and I think Kagawa playing ahead of him would be fine. Kagawa can take on people and links up brilliantly with other players.}

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Sorry to say it Shappy but I have never disagreed with a post more. I think that in terms of the best left backs in the world Baines is right up there probably only bettered by Cole, Alba and Lahm.

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How is Osman a 'run with the ball player'?

Also just a note people forget how good in the air Hernandez is, mostly because he's brilliant at finding space. You also seem to forget that we currently have Evra who's crossing is erratic who attacks in a very simular (but less effective) way and can't defend as well.

And finally all of those 'modern' full backs you've listed, Evra, Alves, Contrao and Marcelo can't defend for toffee.

The only thing that would worry me about Baines is his age apart from that he's a perfect fit for United.

Red Joe

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The stats at least shows that his crosses are very good which is a very good thing for a full back

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18 Jun 2013 12:27:33
Ed004, the reason I feel Baines is a step in the wrong direction is not a slight on his defensive abilities which are very good. But on his ability to adapt to a more expansive formation, and the his abilities to adapt to those changes. If we are to play like Everton then there is no one better than Baines to sign. But if we are to try and adapt and play a more modern and expansive style of football then I don't think Baines is best suited to that.
His stats have vastly improved since Pienaar rejoined the team, it is his partnership and understanding on the left hand side with Pienaar that makes his so potent going forward. Like how Yorke and Cole were awesome when played together but just good players when played seperately.

Baines needs a winger infront of him so that they can double up on the opposition full back and get past him. His win ratio for beating his marker in a one on one situation was very low, less than 15% ( I can't remember the exact figure atm). That is not good enough to play in a system where there is more onus on the full back to beat his man by himself. Baines wouldn't off much of an attacking threat in a 433 for example as he wouldn't have a winger to play a give and go with to get around the full back. Its this limitation that puts me off. The fact that if are to get the best out of Baines then we will need to play with a more traditional winger in either a 442 or a 4411 type formation. This is not moving forward but taking a step backwards.

And yes he created a lot of chances last season, but 90% of those were crosses. And yes RvP and Rooney a good in the air but neither are as good as Fellaini. Also RvP and Rooney's strengths lie in having the ball played to them on the ground not in the air, the same with Hernandez and Kagawa. How many times did you see Baines get around his man, cut in and pull a pass back to an on rushing player? Hardly ever, he gets around his man with the aid of his winger and hits a cross into the box. Yes he does this a lot but even with someone as good as Fellaini is in the air it didn't get as many assists as someone creating as many chances as he does should get. This is due to the type of chances he creates. That is my problem with him. He excels in putting in crosses but is weak when it comes to beating his man one on one and for creating chances on the floor (where most created chances are converted).

He would limit us to playing an older and more predicable style of football. A style with which we will never be able to challenge the european elite with. Do you think 442 or 4411 is going to beat the likes of Barca, Bayern, Real Madrid ect? Hell do you think it is a style that'll beat the likes od Benfica, Ajax and Shaktar? For me signing Baines would mean embracing an older poorer style of football rather than trying to be inovative and move with the times. That is why I feel Baines would be a step backwards. {Ed004's Note - The way I see it is that it'll be either Baines or Evra. And Baines is a step up. In a 4231 he will have plenty of space to run into and either Kagawa or Rooeny or even RVP who drifts out wide can double up with him. Though I agree he isn't the best possible signing I would rather Coentrao or Alex Sandro}

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18 Jun 2013 12:55:17
Sorry Shappy but I think your wrong on this one. And converting Ayew to a full back is a terrible idea that would be a disaster waiting to happen. Evra leaks like a sieve. Playing a converted winger who's still adapting to the league? Baines is the best fit, experienced, doesn't need to settle and we could play Welbeck or Young infront of him. The only issue is cost but compared to some of the players we've wasted money on. MrE

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Shappy,

I agree with you that we shouldn't go for Baines but not for the reasons you have given. I haven't hidden my feelings on here about Baines and I stand by my view that although offensively Baines offers something, defensively there are better LB's then him. Going forward and scoring goals is not an issue for us, Evra provides an offensive threat for us but we need a more solid defensive LB.

Most Full backs are encouraged to go forward nowadays so can all offer something but it is their defending that should be a priority. Until someone can explain why Baines would be a good buy due to his defensive ability and not what he offers going forward or from set pieces then we should look else where or stick with what we have. And for £12-15 million for a 28 year old is to much.

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Sorry Shapps but I too disagree,

I think you may be reading to much into Baines' style/approach - I'm confident we could work him into space, particularly through a player like Kagawa.

Most fullbacks get into a crossing position via a one-two or passing rather than beating a defender with stepover's etc.

I think Baines would be a fantastic signing and his EPL experience would be a big bonus. His corner/freekick taking would be another major bonus.

HB

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18 Jun 2013 13:11:42
I'm not saying he's a bad player as clearly he isn't. I just personally feel that if we are to progress and move into playing a more modern style of football then we need to move away from a 442 or 4411 type formation.

To do that you need more modern full backs. Players able to do the job of a winger and of a full back all by themselves so as to free up other players to be able to play in a more free flowing less ridged way.

Baines is excellent when he can pair up with a winger but that means that you have two players wide and less players in abd around the box. Its better if you have one player wide pulling the full back out of the box and allowing the player who would have been in the former winger position to move more infield where the space has opened up and there is no one to mark them. Games these days are won by having more players in the danger areas which are more centrally. Signing Baines for me would mean taking someone out of the danger area and placing them wide making easier to defend against.

I knew when I posted this it wouldn't be well recieved but its my opinion and I feel it has some vaild points.

The question should be do you want to see an exciting modern expansive style of football next season or a more traditional ridged and defensively solid style? Because I think signing Baines would point more to the latter than the former.

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Sorry shaps I couldn't disagree more.
Chris the REDman

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18 Jun 2013 13:38:52
Ports name me 5 defensively sound left backs who we could realistically sign this summer.

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18 Jun 2013 13:44:58
Shappy I think most people have had enough of Evra's lapses and poor tracking back so want a safe pair of hands so to speak and Baines is a safe option, no issues with the language, living in the north West, used to the league and the manager and knows some of the squad from England duty. I can see the attractions. I think your making too much of the style of play. Its only likely to have an impact in the later european games and i'm sure we'll adapt. There also is a total lack of leftbacks around to sign. Also I think Buttner has the potential to be the type of leftback you are after. He did start as a winger as well and is a players I think gets too much stick. Mort {Ed004's Note - Maybe a season or 2 under Baines would help Buttner learn how to defend? And give him time to work on his delivery etc}

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I cannot understand the statement suggesting baines is not a modern fullback. I don't know how much u have seen him play but he does things as a full back which not many do (if any). When he receives the ball in full back position and passes the ball to the midfielders or defenders he sprints forward into space whether that be an overlap or even an underlap into the middle of the pitch. Now 50% of the time he will get tracked but won't react quick enough in doing so it drags the oppositions formation out of position as they don't know whether to track him so far. And if not tracked then offers so much going forward.
In my eyes that has progressed from a fullback who's job is to defend, then into a fullback like Neville who bombed up and down the flanks
Cob

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No Name,

How do I know who's realistic and who's not? I can't say who would be prepared to sell but taking into account probably Jordi Alba, David Alaba, Marcello, would probably not be available, if the price was right then teams might be prepared to sell?

Schmelzer - Dortmund
Filipe Luis - Athletico Madrid
Nagatomo or Periera - Inter Milan
Vila or Constant - AC Milan
Cissokho - Valencia

Looking at younger players then Shaw - Southampton
Blind - Ajax
Willems - PSV
Davies - Swansea

Or we stick with Evra/Buttner/Fabio. {Ed004's Note - Coentrao and Alex Sandro?}

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18 Jun 2013 14:38:57
Exactly ed. I think Baines would solve more problems than he creates. Buttner would have someone to learn from who doesn't think defending is an optional extra and Young might play better if he doesn't have to worry about doing two jobs. I think both deserve one more season. If they fail after that then get rid by all means. Mort

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004,

Yes and them 2, wasn't sure on chances of Coentrao but I've heard of this Alex Sandro.

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Not heard much about Sandro was what I meant, sorry. {Ed004's Note - Sandro is a Porto player who is very good offensively and decent defensively}

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18 Jun 2013 16:27:49
I'd take David Alaba, Jordi Alba, Alex Sandro, Filipe Luis and Bastian Oczipka ahead of Baines. They would all be better value for money and offer a more rounded player able to cope with the more modern expectations of a full back.

For me the only thing Baines has better than those is experiance of playing in england. But i'd rather buy a more talented and more suitable player who hasn't played in england than someone who isn't suitable but has played in england. I mean Strootman or Thiago have never played in England but Joey Barton and Dider Zokora have which would you rather sign? Lol.

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Shappy
Keep digging!
Dylan

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18 Jun 2013 17:27:11
And how many of them are available to sign Shappy? No chance of Alaba or Alba. Alex Sandro would be very expensive and a risk as you yourself have stated. Luis Felipe would need a season to settle so wouldn't offer an immediate improvement. And never even heard of the last one.

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18 Jun 2013 18:08:06
I love how people say anyone from a foriegn league will take a year to settle. Some times they do but also just as often they don't. Did Vidic need a year to settle? Did RvN? Did Stam? Of course you can also point to players such as DDG or Kagawa who have taken time to settle. But you can't just write a play like Filipe Luis off that it'll take him a year to settle. He has played in a european top league for many years and has plenty of top flight experiance. So its not a forgone conclusion that it'll definately take him a year to settle.

As for Bastian Oczipka, he is a talent young left back playing in germany for Frankfurt. And was one of the stand out players for them and in germany this year. He still has a few kinks to iron out, but he averages more tackles and interceptions a game than Baines, and is almost as good a crosser of the ball but vitally he manages an average of 2. 2 dribbles a game compared to 0. 8 that Baines manages. Plus he is younger and cheaper than Baines. Also being German should mean he would have less problems adapting to playing and living in England.

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18 Jun 2013 18:47:50
But stats are meaningless. Didn't you say that earlier about Baines about how the stats don't show how bad a signing he would be but your your banging out stats for some random German kid probably nobody else on the page has heard of. No some players do settle faster than others but the players you pointed out who settle faster were all northern or eastern european players. Not southern european or south americans who usually do take longer. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one as I do respect your opinion but I think you are wrong on this one.

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18 Jun 2013 20:17:19
Stats are meaningless when not in context or when you don't look at all the variables. I was using the stats as a comparable to Baines as I can't show you through video how both of them play.

Oczipka is a very good player who although 24 has had the penny drop last season and turned potential into actual end product. And has started to live up to his potential. He still has to learn his positioning as he can like Evra be caught up field on occasion (but no where near as often as Evra is). His passing is very good. He has great vision and good variation of pass. His crossing is almost as good as Baines is, but he is much better with the ball at his feet. He would also cost less than half of what Baines would and is four years younger.

Yes I agree southern europeans and south americans tend to suffer more when it comes to trying to adapt. But I could also state players such as Ronaldo, Hernandez, Heinze ect who have adapted quickly to playing in England. Plus you have players such as Gilberto Silva, Mata, Silva, Cazorla, Suarez ect who have done so for other teams in England.

I would think that a player who has played in a top european league for as long as Filipe Luis has would have a minimal effort in adapting. We also have several south amerians at the club already who can help him settle.

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18 Jun 2013 10:07:24
Edds

Is it just me or do you wounder sometimes about our scouting network. Isco has been a stand out player for sometime now whilst playing for Malaga but we don't even seem to of put any interest in him. Anyone who has any idea about football and has seen him play ( Not just in the u21 competition ) but for Malaga through out the season would understand that he is going to be a class player. Why on earth have we not shown any interest in this player? I know we are interested in Thiago and he also looks like a top top player but Isco is going to be in a class of his own. Also out of 10 what do you rate our chances of getting Thiago and Strootman because I can see us also missing out on Thiago because of leaving it to late. FINGERS CROSSED I am wrong. {Ed004's Note - I don't think we should worry about our scouting network. What if he is not the type of player we need for Moyes new plans. What if Moyes wanted a direct winger such as Reus, Mirallas, Ronaldo etc}

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Think Mirallas would be a really clever signing. Can play left wing or as a striker. Would be brilliant in a front 3 with rvp and Kagawa. Plus Moyes knows the lad well. That's the sort of player we should be looking at. Loads of potential and a lot cheaper than other names I've heard banded about

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The reason we aren't going for Isco is simply because there are much more financially aggressive teams looking at him a. k. a City and Real Madrid. It would cost too much in wages too attract him too our club.

Red Joe

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I am a fan of Mirallas. Too good for Everton. Mirallas & Baines would do us nicely.

Sydney!

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Mirrales is gunna be a great little player for the prem imo
Chris the REDman

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"Mirallas & Baines would do us nicely". - Are you being serious? This comment is even worse than the OP one of "Our scouting must be poor as we haven't registered interest in Isco" - one player for crying out loud!
Invisible STuey

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18 Jun 2013 00:14:30
Ed do you know of any update on Thiago, seems his future will be decided this week so do you have an idea who it's looking like to be?

Thanks for all the replies

Twin {Ed004's Note - I do not know Alcantara so I don't know what his decision is}

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18 Jun 2013 01:54:11
United should be going all out to sign a bit of spanish class, they have the best batch of young players the football world has to offer, and we have all seen the impact that the player were in need of have made for our rival clubs, in silva, mata and carzola, all brilliant players. I know we have kagawa who I think well see a lot more of this season, should he stay injury free!

thiago in, along with strootman, and possibly another winger and I think we could all be happy and excited for next season.

surge

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Yes there side would be like a kid in a sweet shop, wouldn't mind any of about 7 of that squad. Pretty scary the amount of talent they have comign through already for the future. Does lead me to a point. It does appear the thoughts of signing Strootman are pretty split from the ideal player to not good enough for the first eleven. And its MOTD fever maybe (however few people seen Strootman much before this tournament). But and maybe partly unfairly as looking at the best young nation in the world, the Spain U21 team shows there are certainly alternative boxtobox/defensive midfielders out there, one been mentioned and the other I have barely seen:
Illaremendi: Player most stood out for me in whole tournament. I have seen enough of Thiago and Isco before to know they are top players (though Isco has looked even better still in this tourny). Illaremendi had not heard of though and he is superb. Everywhere on the pitch, Thiago may go back to get the ball deep but everything foes through Ilalremendi, he is always pinching the ball defensively and always the go to man in the final third when no through ball available, reminds me of a cross between Xavi and Alonso, superb player in the making.
Koke: Had heard of him as a FM legend :) Not seen him mentioned at all by pundits, commentators or on here. Technically good, but what I really like is hpw physical and pumped up he appears at times, a bit of Keane/Gattuso in him. Here people rave about Verrati and rightly so, Koke seems a player who could well deserve equal billing and isn't getting it simply because of the talent and flair around him in the same team.
Im sure a whole host of clubs will have interest in these two players, and they are just examples that personally I think show there are far more options available and better for our midfield than the usal names of Strootman/Felliani/Wanyama that keep getting mentioned
Invisible STuey

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18 Jun 2013 00:14:30
Ed do you know of any update on Thiago, seems his future will be decided this week so do you have an idea who it's looking like to be?

Thanks for all the replies

Twin

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18 Jun 2013 00:11:58
Thiago apparently wants to leave Barca, hopefully an offer will be made very soon. Moyesy sign him up!

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