Manchester United Banter Archive May 18 2013

18 May 2013 19:32:24
There has been one question on my mind for the last week or so.

How will Moyes effect the way we play?

We have won another title this year and there is a strong winning mentality within the squad. But we all felt that we needed to adjust our style of play to be a more entertaining team to watch. I along with several others felt that Sir Alex was slowly changing the team towards a new way of playing. This will of course be open to change now that Sir Alex has gone and Moyes has replaced him.

Will Moyes vision be the same as Sir Alex's? Unlikely.

Now i've said before that I felt that we could move more towards a 433 type formation next season, and although that may still be the case sometimes. We need to consider how Moyes will look to play.

Now the big difference between how Moyes likes to set up a team compared to Sir Alex is in midfield.

Sir Alex prefers to have a Deep lying playmaker (DLP) paired with a Box to box (B2B) player, this means we sit deeper to give the playmaker space to play, but can invite teams onto us.

Moyes prefers to have a Defensive midfielder (DM) paired with a Box to box (B2B) player. This means that you have more work rate and have a more solid base to work from, but lack abit of creativity in the heart of midfield.

Both have ther advantages and disadvantages. Sir Alex's style will negate counter attacking teams for instence as his team sit deep removing the space in behind that counter attacking teams need, but that does play into the hands of the possession based teams as there is loads of space for them to opperate in.
Where as Moyes style compresses the pitch making it harder for possession stlyed teams but leaving space in behind for the counter attacking teams.

Seeing as more teams are trying to keep possession Moyes way looks like a better option atm. Plus it still allows you to drop deeper if playing against a counter attacking side.

Moyes will rely more on the advanced midfielder/forward for creativity. His style is closer to what we see from Bayern and Dortmund. At Bayern you have Martinez as the DM and Schwienstieger as the B2B player, their creativity comes from Muller, Kroos, Robban, Ribery or Shaqiri. At Dortmund you have Bender as the DM, Gundogan as the B2B player, with Gotze, Reus and Blaszczykowski providing the creativity.

At Everton this season he has Neville as the DM and Gibson as the B2B, with Fellaini Pienaar and Marellas providing the creativity.

So we can probably assume he will continue to play this way. So that should give us some idea as the the type of players he will want to buy.

Now at the club atm we have Carrick who plays as a DLP atm, but can play as a B2B player, and would imo play better with abit more freedom. Cleverley is also a B2B player. We could see Jones play as a DM but he can be postionally naive at times which would leave us open. So I would say we need a DM under Moyes more than any other midfielder, with possibly a young B2B player to eventually take over from Carrick.

So who could be our midfield targets?

Now Strootman has been seen as a nailed on signing for awhile, and under Sir Alex's system of a DPL and a B2B player he would be perfect alongside Carrick. But if Moyes is likely to play with a DM then maybe Strootman isn't the best signing. Strootman has played as a DM on a few occasions but it's not his best role and it limits him like the DLP role limits Carrick. Both in truth are B2B players. Now we could play two B2B players but that could leave us open.

I wouldn't rule out Strootman under Moyes but I would have thought his first choice signing would be someone who is more a specialsed DM rather than a good all round B2B player like Strootman.

So who are the choices?

Sandro is the best DM in the Prem and if Spurs don't get forth spot then he maybe available, but knowing Levy it will be at a price.

Wanyama is the most obvious one we've been linked with. He is a talent but is still quite raw, is he ready to be first choice at United? Probably not.

Gonalons has been mentioned today, and he would be right up there on the list. He has it all and is very good at it. But he has his sights set on either Napoli or Real Madrid.

Capoue could be an option, and he almost ticks all the boxes. The only issue he can have is sometimes he goes missing in games both postionally and in terms of play.

Romulo would be my second choice, he has everything you could want in a DM, but his passing range is a little limited. This isn't too much of a problem though considering his role. Also it might be prudent to wait to see how well he is over his injury.

So this leaves me with the best option imo, Lars Bender. He has everything, reading of the game, a soild passing range, a great tackler. To be honest the only downside is he will suffer the wrath of opposition fans with that surname. lol.

Then I could see us go for a young box to box type midfielder.

Strootman could be an option here, but I feel he would want to be first choice and tbh I think Carrick will be ahead of him with someone like Bender along side him.

My pick would be Leon Goretzka, he will be one of the best midfielders in the world in 4/5 years time, and a top player in 2/3. Perfect for taking over from Carrick.

But imo I think Moyes choice would be Marco Van Ginkel, who also has huge potential. Moyes has scouted him personally. He is a year or so behind Strootman but with maybe more potential. He as 8 goals and 8 assists this year playing for Vitesse, which is better than Strootman managed in a better PSV side. Although Strootman is better defensively.

So I expect to see Moyes stick with 4231 style of formation. I can see us signing Lewandowski as he is very much a Moyes type striker.

So maybe Lewandowski up top with RvP in behind him, Kagawa on the left with Welbeck/Valencia/Zaha on the right. With Bender and Carrick in midfield.

So that would be

Robert Lewandowski
Lars Bender
Marco Van Ginkel
Wilfried Zaha

all coming in. I'd like to see a LB come in with Evra leaving, but I do believe that there is an agreement between Moyes and Kenwright stopping us sign Everton players, so that would rule out Baines. Which leaves us short on options. Alex Sandro is a pipe dream imo, he plays for Porto who are the Spurs of Portugal and he'll cost at least 15m probably more which will rule him out. Maybe Lucas Digne can come in to challenge Buttner for the LB slot if Evra wants to move back to France.

Thats more like I can see our summer panning out under Moyes and taking into account how he will likely change our tactics.

Shappy

Over the last 12 month I have mentioned both fellaini and moyes and got stick both times as Everton " are a long ball team "
Once moyes has become our manager it seems that Everton have been trying to play a similar style to bayern munich?
I have quite a few Everton fans and not many off them are that sad to see him go, I actual think they vastly underrate him but they all argue the same point " defensive boring football"
It seem that everyone improves once they sign for united.
Watch fellaini become the best player in the EPL if he signs for united
Jred

Everton do play good football, I think the long ball idea comes from having Fellaini playing further up field. This can be a tactic that Everton use but more so against the teams better than them, which is more likely the games most casual fans watch. Who watches Everton vs West Brom? or Sunderland? But Everton vs Spurs or Chelsea or United? And suddenly there's more interest in the match.

Fellaini is a very good player, but imo in a team like ours he would have to play deeper in midfield as we have better options for players to play in the hole. Kagawa Rooney and even RvP are better players than Fellaini in the no. 10 role, thus if he was to sign for us I would expect him to play in midfield along side Carrick to add some bite and drive to our midfield. With him coming forward for corners and free kicks.

Everton can only play as well as the players they have, Gibson and Neville aren't great midfielders. Fellaini is a good player as a no. 10, probably the best player they have at Everton for that role, but he isn't a great one. Pienaar and Mirallas are good wide men but they aren't great wide men. Jelavic is a good striker but not a great one.

He's playing the right style, just with players who fall short of being the best.

Players do look better in better teams and managers will look better when they have better teams. I think Fellaini albeit has some very good points, strength, gets stuck in, good in the air, a nasty streak which I like in a midfielder, he does look cumbersome at times and his control is very suspect. He would need to speed up more in possession too as he does like to dwell on the ball. He wouldn't be a bad signing, I just feel for the money he would cost we could get better. I do wish he would get an haircut though.

Sydney!

Fellaini is not a number 10 he says that himself the long ball theory comes from as you say people who haven't really watched Everton.

But at the same time Everton don't play great football, I like moyes I think he is a good manager but let's not big him up into something his not.
There weren't many people talking him up as a good tactically astute manager until he signed for United.
Look at Everton they have good players but 8 place in the league is good for them I think a top manager could do better.
I also don't think moyes has shown he plays or will bring the brand of football to United most fans would like.

That said I do think he is a good manager but he is a. manager with potential who will significantly need to raise his game to be up with the best in Europe but like with a player with potential I think he has a chance.
Jred

Jred, I think that is a good observation on Moyes.

Sydney!

18 May 2013 22:05:52
I think he had Everton punching above their weight. Yes they have some good players, but that squad is waffer thin. Beyond Fellaini Mirallas Pienaar and Jelavic their only other attacking options is Anichebe Naismith and Osman that's it. Seven attacking players. Beyond Gibson Neville Hitzleburger and Barkley he had no other midfielders of note. Just four midfelders, one a former defender and 35yo, one a United reject whom many will tell you is one of the worst players to win a title with United in the last ten years, an up and coming kid and a german journey man.

Thats a very thin squad, and he keeps them up at the top end of the table every year, occasionally even scaring the champions league chasing teams.

I'm not saying he is a tactical genius, but he is better tactically then people give him credit for. Whether you like it or not he has set his Everton team up in much the same way as Klopp sets up his Dortmund side from a tactical stand point. All be it that his Everton players are far inferior to Klopps players at Dortmund. Neville plays Benders role, Gibson plays Gundogans role, Pienaar plays Kubas role, Mirallas plays Reus' role and Jelavic plays Lewandowski's role. The only difference other than the quality of the players is Gotze instead of Fellaini, but seeing as Everton haven't got a similar player to Gotze and couldn't afford someone who plays in a similar way Moyes has had to adapt it slightly. Even if you look at how they play. Dortmund relying on width from Pizchek and Schmelzer and Everton relying on Coleman and Baines. The fact both have a strong front man who can link up well with the player in and around them in Jelavic and Lewandowski. The fact that they both play with one more traditional wide man who'll try and run around the outside and one wide man who likes to cut in. The fact that they both try to press teams quickly and give them no time on the ball.

Everton have been set up from a tactical view point in an identical way to Dortmund. They just lack the quality of players Dortmund have. Now we were all saying we would like to see Klopp get the job as he brings young players through and he plays good football and seems to spot great players at low prices before other teams spot them. Moyes has brought youngsters through, set his team up to play in a similar style to Dortmund and has brought in many very good players on a limited budget. He has also proven himself in the Premiership and has shown his ability to stick with a team long term. Things which Klopp hasn't.

So when you look alittle deeper and without bias, you see that Moyes is a very good choice. Will he be the right choice? Only time will tell.

Snappy I disagree you are trying to big moyes up simply because he is our new manager Everton are nothing like Dortmund who have prob spent a similar amount.
Coleman, banies, jags, Howard, mirllas, distance, fellaini, jelavic, primate to name a few Everton have good players.
Tell me a team underneath Everton that have better player, which team with better players has moyes got Everton out performing?
Everton set up like Dortmund? Come on pal Dortmund play some off the most attacking football in Europe it's a joy to watch, Everton don't play a similar brand imo
Moyes good manager I hope he kicks on
Jred

18 May 2013 23:45:07
I think everton will struggle next year. No money, thin squad and lack of quality. If they pick poorly in a new manager and if a couple of the better quality players leave (not necessarily to us) then I really think they'll struggle.

I've explained to you twice now how the set up of the team at Everton and at Dortmund are similar, and how they have similar tactic plans. I've also explained that the gulf in class between the two sides is huge.
So you can't compare there success.

You are just either refusing to see the similarities or don't understand the tactics involved so can't see it.

Dortmund play with a back four which have full backs that push high up the pitch and provide width in the teams attacks.

That is exactly the same way Everton play. Baines and Coleman push forward to provide the width when Everton attack. But the Everton defenders aren't as good as Dortmunds so they won't have the success Dortmunds do.

But the way they set up and try and play the game is in the same manner.

Everton play 4231 which is the exact same formation as Dortmund play.

Dortmund play with a midfield two, one of which does the defensive dirty work and the other one provides the energy and starts the attacks from deep.

Which is exactly the same way Evertons midfield works. Neville does the defensive work and Gibson provides the energy and starts the attacks from deep.
But Neville and Gibson are nowhere near the quality of Bender and Gundogan and as such can't replicate the success that Dortmunds midfield have.

Dortmund have an attacking three behind the main striker. One of which recieves the ball and plays in all around him, one who cuts in from a wider position onto his stronger foot and the other uses his speed and crossing ability to create chances.

Now at Everton you have Fellaini who uses his size and strength to recieve the ball and play in his team mates, Pienaar starts out wide but cuts inside onto his stronger right foot, and Mirallas uses his speed and crossing ability to create chances for his team mates.

Again this set up is just like Dortmunds, but yet again Kuba Reus and Gotze are far more talented players than Mirallas Pienaar and Fellaini.

Dortmund striker Lewandowski is renown for having one of the safest chest in world football, you play a ball into his chest and he'll control it and either turn and shoot or lay the ball off for a team mate. He uses a combination of strength, positioning and finishing ability to lead the line for Dortmund.

Jelavic is a poor mans Lewandowski. As he has all the same attributes and playing style to Lewandowski but is no where near Lewandowski's level.

I'm not saying Moyes is a tactical genius, but he is tactically equal to Klopp. His team are set up the exact same way, but just don't have any where near the same kind of quality of players that Klopp enjoys at Dortmund. That is why Everton can't perform the same kind of pleasing football week in week out as Dortmund. Dortmund just have far more quality.

As for teams that have as good players as Everton but don't finish as high as them?

Well Liverpool have a better squad and probably as good if not better first team.

You can aregue Newcastle on paper have a better first team than Everton.

An arguement could even be made for Sunderland who have a better Keeper, stronger midfield, as good creative players, but maybe fall short in defence.

Swansea have played some great football and won a cup, but with there top manager couldn't finish higher than Everton.

Villa have a young exciting side now, but a few years ago had Barry, Milner, Downing, Young and Bent, Dunne and Friedel. That team could be argued was better than Evertons.

Stoke are known for being a tough team to win at, and yet Everton beat them every year in the table.

But Liverpool and Newcastle on paper should finish above Everton and maybe Sunderland as well.

So he has made Everton punch above their weight, by two maybe even three places.

So No Dortmund and Everton on a quality can't be compared, but how the teams set up tactically can be. And Everyone was calling for Klopp so he could set our team up to play like Dortmund. Well Moyes has set up a team like Dortmunds, but he couldn't get the quailty required. At Old Trafford he can attact the right quality of player in order to hopefully set us up as well as Dortmund are.

Open your eyes and take off the blinkers.

Shappy brilliant post mate! Absolutely! So how. do you see us playing like that? Evra would get. slaughtered providing width! Rafael would be perfect for the role. ! Though we would need a leftback and two midfielders and a a creative winger di maria!
So we can be set up quite similar. but we need a pressing game. so how will our old players manage?
How do you think we will put up?

Exciting times nevertheless!

Really good post Shappy. I guess we are one of the few people who rate the ever to manager highly.

What people tend to conveniently forget year is the year before Dortmund won the league and did not make it out of a pretty simple group in cL and Klop was not the flavor of the month.

German football is currently producing a lot of good players and Klop has been fortunate to have had quite few come through their system lust like us with the class of 90.

I had not scrolled down the page when I posted what I thought would be our summer activities but believe we will buy a left winger. Welbeck and Young are not good enough playing left wing.

Shahram

I actually think that fellaini will bring something to our midfield which we lack at present, namely, strength and presence. He also prefers to play in a more defensive roll. So I think he'll be a good choice. If we get him, we then have to go for a creative midfielder who can keep posession and pass, modric or gundogan will be great.
Let's see what the summer brings. Maybe Ronaldo too and we'll be smiling.
Nomidfield

Opps I meant the year before last year when dortmund when the league.

shahram

Snappy what a load of rubbish nearly every team in the EPL sets up the same way at some point not just Everton.
4-2-3-1 is popular because it is so versatile on paper you can compare how Dortmund and Everton set up but how they implement it is completely different. if you can't see the difference you must be blind.
The interaction and fluid movement between the Dortmund midfield can not be compared to the ridgid system Everton employ.
Fellaini often plays not as a acm but as a second striker and mirallas and pienaar as orthodox wingers.
In fact I would say Everton play 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 more often than than a fluid 4-2-3-1.
The whole point of the 4-2-3-1 is that it is a fluid formation constantly changing with players interchanging positions Everton play a far more ridged style often going long to fellani and then working off him
So for me to say Everton set up exactly the same way as Dortmund is rubbish there TACTICS are completely different and no where near as simply as you describe
I stand by my point no-one was going on about how good evertons football was unttill moyes signed for United, long ball was the mist common term
Jred

19 May 2013 11:13:00
Die Red, I think you right in that Evra doesn't have the legs for this style. Although he would be good going forward, he just wouldn't get back. So he may need replacing. The best candidate imo for LB with this system would be Alex Sandro. But he would cost too much. I think Buttner deserves a chance, so would make him first choice and bring in a talent young LB who could challenge him. My choice would be Lucas Digne.

As for the midfield we have Carrick who will be first choice still next year. But I would expect us to bring in a proper DM maybe Lars Bender. With a midfield of Bender and Carrick the full backs will have cover when they go forward. Smalling could be the key in the cenree of defence as we will need someone with the pace to cover counter attacks. So I woukd expect only to see one of Rio or Vidic at a time and not both.

I exoect to see Lewandowski to sign who will lead the line, with RvP dropping back behind him and playing the Gotze role. Kagawa will cut in from the left with one of Welbeck/Valencia or Zaha playing on the right. Young would cover Kagawa. I don't see us signing a LW as sorts but maybe someone who can play from the left or anywhere along the attacking three. I don't see us splashing out on the big names mentioned all the time your Bales your Ronaldos or your Di Marias. I see us moving for someone like Juan Fernando Quintero. In 2/3 years time when RvP is past his best and Zaha and Quintero have developed I could see a front four of Zaha, Kagawa, Quintero and Lewandowski. That would work very well. By that time we will also have players like Januzaj and Daelhi challenging the first team. With maybe Lingard and Welbeck providing cover.

I also see us making a move for Marco Van Ginkel as he is a player Moyes rates very highly and could become Carricks replacement in a couple of years time. {Ed004's Note - Shappy I fully expect us to sign a winger this year and it looks likely we will move for one of Di Maria or Rodriguez so they will play out right IMO. Also I am not sure about RVP in the hole still}

Shappy I agree with you about the style of play Everton tried to play at times but I think if we were to attempt to implement it, it would be very expensive but I suppose with big out goings such as Rooney, Nani, Anderson, Young (I'd sell him) and Evra then it would not be a big net spend. However, I can't see us making many changes to the side and I honestly think to play the Dortmund style of play we need a left back who is very good defensively but is also a very dangerous offensive player such as Baines. Then in midfield with the number of out goings we will have we will need two players. One that will do the dirty work and eventually replace Carrick such as Wanyama, Vidal, Witsel or Bender and a creative player Gundogan (apparently has a 25 million release clause), Fabregas, Modric or Cabaye as a last choice. That would give us the foundations to work on. In attack with Nani and Rooney almost certainly gone we will need a right winger who is preferably left footed to cut inside so we can play a fluid front four, I hope we sign Rodriguez but I would take any of Rodriguez, Bale (can play right side) Lamela or Di Maria. Now in replacing Rooney it would depend on who we could get. We could play Kagawa central and sign a right footed player for the left side Isco, Reus, Sanchez etc or we could sign a central player such as Ozil, Lewandowski etc and play Kagawa out right cutting in. Personally I'd love Ozil and reckon an all German midfield of Bender, Gundogan and Ozil is very good and future of German football. I reckon selling all those players about would cover the signings of Rodriguez and a Rooney replacement so we would only be making a loss on purchasing a left back and 2 central midfielders, one very good defensively and the other a playmaker who works very hard and is the engine of the team. Though Shappy can you see that many changes to a team?
The Red Manc

19 May 2013 13:40:14
Jred, that's fair enough. I stand by my point though that Everton have been set up and have tried to implement similar tactics as Dortmund use. But they lack the quality to play to the same standard.

I think the reason people said things like long ball football with Moyes before hand was because they dismissed him out of hand as he isn't a flashy big name manager. They wanted Jose or Klopp or Pep. Moyes was looked upon as the cheap option, and as such was dismissed as not good enough without giving him a proper look. Then he was given the job, he's here now and we have to accept it. So now people are giving him a fair look and are noticing that he has more qualities than people previously gave him credit for. Is he the greatest manager in football atm? No of course not. But could he be the best manager suited to our club atm? Yes he could be.

Ed004, i'm not sure about another winger signing. The only one I feel is worth going for is Bale or Rodriguez, and both would be too expensive. I think RvP could do a very good job in the hole, I do believe he is better further forward but if Lewandowski was signed and we played Kagawa and Welbeck/Zaha or Young then we would have a very fluid front four witb lots of movement so someone starting position wouldn't be where they play all of the game. With Zaha already signed. And looking toward the possible other signings. I would say you have Lewandowski and Lars Bender who will cost around 20m each. Then maybe Quintero and Van Ginkel would cost around 5-8m each. With maybe Digne for around 7m if Evra moves to Monaco. That would mean a maximum of around 60m spent. But with sales of Nani (15m), Anderson (8m), Lindegaard (5m), Evra (3m) and Rooney (25-30m) we would recoupe most if not all of it and have a stronger squad.

18 May 2013 18:58:36
Getting sat down to watch the only European title that has any real meaning to me - yes lads, EUROVISION IS STARTING!

Any regulars out there got any guilty pleasures that can compete with this?

KLOOT, I'm guessing you have a secret penchant for bearded Americans.

Well I am proud to say I have watched all of the desperate housewives episode and own the boxset.


-JakeW

I watch pingu with the kids and quite enjoy it
Jred

I don't now if anyone has seen 'regular show' but that is a pretty good kids cartoon. Nothing beats South Park mind.

Sydney!

Jake - that's pretty poor mate :)

Jred - kids programmes are ok. As long as there's a kid in the room of course.

Judge judy lol

Big Mac

Most of my guilty pleasures would see me off to a 4 by 4 cell, probably a padded one haha.

But recently after a drunken encounter I was put through an episode of made in Chelsea and I must admit it was hilarious ;)

18 May 2013 21:05:03
To be honest Syd I don't think kids should be watching South Park;-) lol.

Pocoyo is strangely hynotic, I was flicking through the channels once and got stuck on that damn programme for 20 minutes. For some reason I just couldn't turn it off. I'm sure it was sending my subliminal messages. Lol.

I got forced into watching the first few episode but I got caught on and basically became addicted, luckily it ended last year!

-JakeW

I watch Home & Away. {Ed007's Note - You're an idiot.}

19 May 2013 02:45:38
I'll hold my hands up. I too watch Home and away. But only because the women on it are hot. Indi and April are well worth a look. Lol {Ed007's Note - Isn't Ali G's real life Mrs in it?}

Twicsy.com/i/UUFGGd

Don't know if we're allowed to post links, eds, but this tickled me :)

Jake

I have watched them all too lol and it is a great show. You should watch the following as they are all good:

1. Revenge
2. Homeland
3. House
4. Game of thrones (no kids)
5. The following


Syd I hope you don't watch south park with the kids lol

Shahram

19 May 2013 10:52:56
Yeah she used to be. So did Heath Ledger and Chris Hemsworth (Thor) along with Danni Minogue. They have had a few austrailian stars make their name there.

Lads, you must watch Banshee.

Very good series.

Sydney!

Revolution
Arrow
Dexter
Breaking Bad

18 May 2013 18:20:06
Hellow Everyone! :)
i had been following this site regularly from last 2 Season's but never posted anything untill 2day, it's the very first time I am posting something! :)

Personally I'm sad to see Wayne Rooney's attitude towardas the CLUB!
Its UNITED who made him STAR and US who made him our HERO. But, his careletvess has surely forced us to withdraw our RESPECT for him.

And secondly, I don't believe we are after CR7! We don't need him either but I can't simply tolerate CR7 wearing blue next season! I will die :/

# wJ

18 May 2013 15:06:01
Rio to sign one year deal. Butt and Scholes to join coaching staff.

18 May 2013 11:39:54
This isn't a rumour or anything. Just my opinion. I'd really like to see Kevin Mirallas at united. Think even with a injury he's had a fantastic season. Would be a great player in our front three. What do people think?

Joe. a

Would he improve us or just clog the squad up?
Dylan

No, we don't need another striker. And on top of that, he's never going to be world class, we need a potential world class player. From the everton squad, I'd only touch Ross Barkley.

He'd be a good option, cheaper than some of those banded about and has already had a season in the Prem so wouldn't have to adapt as much, and already knows the manager ;)

Questions would be is he over any injury issues and potential cost. Is he quite good enough for United? We've had worse gambles.

He is going to be a really good player and still real young.

Shahram

So is Danny Wellbeck Zaha Januji
Dylan

Everton won't let him go I'm pretty sure.

I wonder with all these posters wishing for Everton players why Everton finish in 7th each season, I would expect with all these top players they would be challenging at the top. Alternatively they have some good players but very few who would improve us

Red Man

I don't rate welbeck tho. i'm very much hoping to be proven wrong but I don't feel he has achieved anything what so ever thus far. All I see is a back up player much in the same vain as young.
And before you tell me he's far better than young. I think you will find that even though young has been poor also, he has still contributed to the team more than welbeck this season.

Joe. a

18 May 2013 16:10:42
Yeah because Young was fantastic at the Bernabeu.

Given how evra has come on since buttner joined, maybe getting in merallas would give valencia the same kick on, as I don't think he has really been challenged for his spot this season (young with injuries or on left and nani out of favour/ being shown the door)

although this may happen what with signing zaha and all

Sorry no name.


Yes. Welbeck was good in those two games against Madrid. Very good point. If only I had your keen eye and football knowledge.

Joe. a

18 May 2013 09:39:36
Chelsea fan in peace, just curious about how your reaction to Ronaldo would be if he did move to Chelsea as the reports suggest he could (just for the record I don't believe the reports and am pretty certain we'll never see Ronaldo in Chelsea blue). But I just wanted to know if you'd loose respect for him or still have the same admiration of him?

AK

I don't think anyone could respect for him, at the end of the day he's a footballer. They have everyright to move anywhere they like. Buut I don't think it would happen if we were to believe his love for united and he's said he wouldn't move to anyother premier league club except manchester united. But again you never know i'd still admire him for what he's achieved for us and how good a footballer he is. In my honest opinion if he does move itd be to psg.

Singh
Singh

I'd still always be a fan of his but he would lose a lot of love from united fans. Specially after he called Fergie his second father and it has been reported may times that he now considers united as his real home.

Tbh, if he were to join Chelsea it would be for the mega amounts of money he'd recieve. So I'd just think of him as just another money grabber.

Joe. a

Naw would hate him for it

I'd loose any respect I had for him - he went with us knowing that Madrid was his boyhood team, he has always spoken fondly of United and got a great reception when he returned to OT with Madrid. Fergie moulded him from a raw talent into one of the top three players in the world. If he joined Chelsea it would be a huge slap in the face and I'd be lumping him in with a significant amount of other footballers who are just out to line thier pockets. His can expect a different reception at OT is he turns up in blue.

Fair enough guys. Good luck for next season, it should be interesting!

AK

18 May 2013 14:39:50
It would depend. If we put and offer together and he chose Chelsea over us then I would feel like his time here didn't mean anything to him and i'd lose some respect for him. But if he moved to Chelsea and we never tried to move for him then I can't complain. He can go where he wants, but if he chose another english club over returning then that is a different matter.

17 May 2013 23:50:26
Interested to hear other peoples' opinions on this.

As far as I'm concerned Mancini deserved to be fired. As far as I can tell I'm far from alone. The amount he spent, his poor man management skills and the poor squad harmony he left behind him are a testament to that. I'll admit, his record isn't terrible. Runner up in the league and FA Cup this year, champions last year and (joint) runners up and an FA Cup winners the year before would be pretty damn impressive if it weren't for the aforementioned - but yeah. I think his successes do not do enough to make up for his failings as a manager.

But what about Jose Mourinho? His domestic record is near identical to Mancini's (1 league title, 2 league runners up and one of each in the Copa Del Rey over the past three years). Like Mancini, his treatment of the players in the press has been terrible and he's spent a fair amount as well. If anything squad harmony at RM is far worse than at City and his relationship with the majority of the players seems to have deteriorated to a non-existent level.

The only real difference is that Jose has made 3 CL semi finals and Mancini has failed to get out of the group stages. I suppose to some that will make a difference - but considering he did not win it - I see it as being pretty irrelevant. I think it would have been expected that a club of RM's stature with a strong history in Europe would out perform City (especially given their groups over the past 2 years).

The point I'm getting at is that many on here wanted Jose for the United job (at least ahead of Moyes) and seem terrified of the prospect of him going back to Chelsea. Should we really be that worried? Yes he had some success at Chelski before - but look how that ended - and look at what he's done to Real (the only contender we really have for worlds biggest club!).

Also - given that most seem to have agreed with Mancini's sacking - I'm interested to see how many think Mourinho should be sacked by Real. Given how they treated Del Bosque it certainly wouldn't surprise me. In fact - the only reason I think it hasn't already happened is because they know they can get a bit of money from Chelski.

redseven

Mourinho is a great manager but comes with so much baggage that he isn't worth it, look at the damage he leaves behind when he leaves the club. If he did this at Madrid how do we know he wouldn't do the same at our club. Glad we didn't get him, even though I like him

The only difference is Mourinho would have won the CL group with the City squad. Mancini is tactically clueless and he does not have the management skills to get the best out of his players like Fergie can.

Speaking of Fergie, Mourinho cannot be blamed for the circus at Madrid. Those players and the president have their heads so far up their ass*s, even Fergie would not last there for more than a few years.

Agree with everything you've said. Mancini is not as good as people make him out to be, just look at the champions league. I mean, sure they got a difficult group, but Tottenham with Harry finished top of the group which had the defending champions, Inter Milan in it at the time. To get just 3 points in abysmal, and the fights between Tevez and Mancini, Balotelli and Mancini, if you look at it, the common element is always Mancini, there is never any harmony in the squad, he deserved to be sacked. With the money they've spent, and the squad, Sir. Alex would have won the league by Christmas with that squad.
And Mourinho was never the right man to be our manager, our managers have Class, Mourinho does not even have the C. No matter where he goes, he thinks he's bigger than the club, I am astounded to see these Chelsea fans desperately wanting him back.

In regards to Jose's champion's league record compared to Mancini's: I would say that the large financial incentive that comes with reaching the latter stages of the league is pretty relevant. Certainly doing well in the most prestigious club tournament would be pretty high up on City's agenda, and so in that regard alone, City's season was disappointing. But I agree with what you're saying. Mourinho or not, I think Chelsea will be a serious contender next year.

Great post, redseven. I said the other day that I think Jose's performance at Madrid wasn't that great. The year before he took over Pellegrini had them finishing with a record points total, just 3 adrift of Barcelona. In his 3 seasons, Barce beat Madrid out of sight twice. The season he won the league, Xavi was injured a lot. So, in a 2 horse race, with a team that was beaten in a photo finish the season before he took over, and which is the most expensively assembled squad in history, he's really only done the bare minimum.

You only have to look at the cynicism and chaos in the game last night to understand why Jose could never be our manager.

My personal opinion? You should never go back. I think Chelsea and Mourinho will end in tears.

I think you seem to be scared of mourinho going back to Chelsea.
We should be, because abramovich will give him millions to strengthen the squad. And they already have a very strong squad.
Make no mistake, they will be the team to beat, unless we buck up our ideas and get Ronaldo or bale and a couple of world class midfielders. Ross Barkley might be good in few years, but he's not what we need now!

Madrid is a circus, how many good players and managers have gone there and not done well due to politics.
Love him or hate him Jose has won things at every club his been at and if he goes to Chelsea next year I would expect him to do very well
Jred

Managers need control and time to manage

I can bet if you asked players after 3 years of SAF management at the beginning how they felt and his 'hair dryer' would have likely been seen as bad management. There are always grumbles in any team and now they can moan openly about Mancini.

Mourinho never had control, the position at the circus that is Madrid is a transitory one. The cliques are accepted by the club and there is too much power with the players. They will carry on and change coach every year or two. Note the word is coach rather than manager

It will be interesting to see Mourinho at Chelsea because whilst he will have more control he will still be to some extent a transitory coach. Still I think they will buy strongly and unless our owners give Moyes the quality the real top quality then Mourinho's Chelsea would be my fancy for the league next season.

Red Man

Red Man

The Chelsea coach / manager has no more control than the Madrid manager - in fact, with Emanole at thr club, there's an argument there's more interference in team affairs at Chelsea. It isn't co-incidence that Mourinho's success here came as we were in a heavy re-building phase. Terry and Cech, in particular, also wield huge influence. We'll see how Jose does, but past performance is no guarantee of future success. And, if it is Madrid that's the circus and not Jose, how come Chelsea and Inter went the same way?

DarkLard

Mourinho has been going into underachieving clubs who are keen to achieve quick success. He has in effect been acting like an interim turn around administrator trying to keep a company afloat with instant results than a manager of a football club. You mention Chelsea but the players like Lampard and Terry are still around and how many trophies have they won including two in Europe?

I think Jose would be making a mistake going back to Chelsea as it is in effect yet another interim position but at some point he may want to put roots down. The thing is he is damn good at what he does in the short term but I doubt the objectives he has been given were to build a long term dynasty hence what is left when he leaves

Red Man

Lets be honest here, Madrid is a circus, but Jose is the clown. Clowns belong in circuses. Jose's time at RM will be seen by ALL RM fans as a failure. Good manager no doubt about that, but the man is a pain in the ass wherever he goes. Chelsea will be good next season with or without Jose, but you have to say he's been lucky again by inheriting a good squad of players and unlimited cash. The man has certainly had it easy so far.

Sydney!

Red Man

Interesting how so many people buy into Jose's self-promoting mythology. He did brilliantly at Porto - although his Champions League win featured vast scheduling assistance from the Portuguese FA. Chelsea were Premier League runners-up the year before he took over, and he got a massive investment in the summer he joined - hardly under-achieving, and it's likely they would have won the league at least once in the 2 years that followed without him. Inter had won Serie A the two seasons prior to him taking over, and most of Italy's other major sides were still recovering from the Calciopoli scandal when he took over. Again, his performance in Europe was good, but probably aided by not having to fight that hard in the league, and again there was massive investment in the squad. At Madrid, he took over a side that had pushed Barcelona all the way, invested a load of money and, as I've already pointed out, won a 2 horse race once in 3 seasons, and got beaten out of sight the other 2 times.

And the reason I mentioned Terry and Cech (not Lampard) was because of the undue influence they exert over team affairs.

Sydney

You really don't like Jose do you?

He was bank rolled at Chelsea but he didn't inherit a winnin team did he? He got them over the line and kept them ahead of us. Look at how city haven't managed that as their manager is a tool!

Inter certainly wasn't a major European force when he was there but strong in Italy yet he won an identical treble to ours within 3 years. He was not bank rolled there either. In fact he changed the whole dynamics of the team by ousting zlatan and making it about the team instead.

This he couldn't manage at Madrid. He got players who he could trust in and still couldn't break the cliques, he tried attacking the main ring leaders but they all rounded on him and ran to uncle Perez. Yet even through this has regularly got Madrid further in CL than they were previously and broke the Barca grip on the league.

I'm not denying the Madrid fans will see it as not good enough but I very much doubt SAF would have done any better with that lot of half wits running that club from the inside.

Chelsea are a very good team now and with Jose and additions we will be in a three way battle if moyes can step up to the plate.

Jono, I think Jose is a good manager, one of the best around, but he is a egotistical clown and he has had it very very easy so far.

Sydney!

18 May 2013 21:53:47
@Red Man,

The excuses have run out for Mourinho i'm afraid, he is a great coach who is tactically brilliant, but a poor man manager when the going gets tough and making public spats with club legends is poor management whichever way you look at it.

1. Mourinho was given more time than any other Real Madrid manager in the recent past. He is not a victim by any means, he would have been well aware of the hierarchy at Madrid and was backed financially.

2. He brought the Casillas, Ramos and recently Pepe issues upon himself. The situation with Casillas and Ramos has nothing to do with the Madrid hierarchy or the their "circus".

If he wanted he could easily have managed the Casillas issue way better. Some of the comments made by him in the media have been downright disrespectful to his own players.

3. Apart from Manchester United and maybe Arsenal there are very few top clubs if any where the manager has "total control". You don't get total control from day 1, you earn it gradually over a period of time.

4. He will no doubt be good for chelsea, BUT in the short term. I don't see him establishing an era of dominance or something of that sorts and I expect it to end in a similar way to what has happened at Madrid. Jose was never right for us. Guardiola, Klopp, Loew would have been far better choices.

5. You talk about Sir Alex's hairdryer, but the difference between that and Mourinho is that Sir Alex rarely came out and criticized his players in public if ever and everything was dealt with in house. Even after media leaks there was always maintained a certain level of respect in the comments made publicly. Just imagine how the Wayne Rooney saga in 2010, or the Cristiano Ronaldo issue after the WC 2006 would have been handled in "the Mourinho way".

Sir Alex too had a friction with the plc board members in the past but he never let it transpire into poor performances on the pitch and it definitely didn't go the level of making snide comments and remarks in the media.

6. A practically managerless and leaderless Barcelona side, walked the league this season, the reason for which is pretty simple, the dressing room divide created by Jose at Real Madrid.

REDFAITH

REDFAITH

I have to disagree, the dressing room divide was already there and has been there culturally at Madrid for many years. It is likely one of the main reasons such a great club does not win as much as it should even with all the great players.

Jose has probably been the first coach who tried to deal with it rather than others who pandered to it. That is likely why it has been more pronounced this season than before.

You said he brought the Casillas, Ramos situation upon himself, well tell me what SAF would have done in the circumstances? My strong bet is they would have been sold and sold fast but Mourinho doesn't have that option as he doesn't have control at the Circus that is Madrid so has to take them on to try and retain the authority he needed to manage whilst all the time it appeared the President supported the players. I would think any manager will not be able to deal with that and it is why they burn through coaches whilst the fantasy football thinking of their board stays the same.

SAF has a lot of time for Mourinho and so do I. He is a top Manager and I think if he is at Chelsea next season he will likely win the league over City. Our owners would have to support Moyes beyond the usual to keep us there and Mr 'no retooling' Woodward needs to be very busy now.

Red Man

Red Man, wake up. Jose has divided dressing rooms or had bust ups wherever he has gone. He is controversial and his short stints are always down to him burning bridges.

He is a good manager, one of the best around, but he is a nuisance and all he cares about is his own CV.

Sydney!