Manchester United Banter Archive October 18 2012

18 Oct 2012 21:39:40
Jono Re: your post earlier...

Young would be a better player if he had had the benefit of 7 years of our coaching... Am I the only one starting to think not?!

We seem to take talent and sterilise it.

Risk taking is discouraged.

In trying to force possession football into players who don't naturally play that way we are stopping them from playing forward.

We've seen this with the English team, and I think you can see it with Utd at times.

Nani was crazy talented for his age when we got him... His decision making is something we have failed to teach him in his time with us.

DodgyBanter

I don't know about that but what is clear is that we do not produce enough from the academy and have become a buying club.

I saw a barca game a few weeks ago and they were saying 10 of 11 players in the starting lineup were the product of their academy. Compare that to our starting 11 and we have none that is if you don't believe scholes, Welback and cleverly are starters.

Even if you considered the latter 2 Cleverly would be the only player that might be instrumental to the team make up as welback still has some ways to go.

The academy seems to be more of a graveyard for supposedly very talented players that never seem to be good enough and we are a selling club from the academy to other mid table clubs. Makes you think it is either the way they are coached or our scouting system, where they were never that good to start with.

It is a very worrying stat as we will not be able to assemble a squad like city,PSG, and the other clubs who have a sugar daddy to bankroll them.

Shahram

Sometimes you can't teach natural instinct and being able to see the right play is very much instinct. Look at Scholes at his prime he just had it and i don't think he was thought that.

Shahram

I wouldnt be so criticl of our academy shahram. From the current first team squad, we have a decent number of academy graduates. Fletcher, Giggs, Scholes, Cleverley, Welbeck, Wooton and Keane all have played a part this year. And even though the da silva brothers arent academy graduates, we can safetly say our coaching staff had quite a lot of work on their hands.

the problem seems to be with the lack of trust in the youngsters. Montoya for example is no world beater, but he is guetting his chance. Im positive fryers would have had a similar impact but a lack of trust in the yougsters lead to him leaving.

same for Pogba. If he stayed this year he would have had at least 10-15 games and proved himself. But a lack of trust from fergy lead to him leaving.

I just hope Petrucci is not considering an exit. I think he will become a better player than Cleverley down the line.

Mick

Mick, Giggs and Scholes came through 20 years ago. Since then we don't have a single player where we can say they are world class and the product of our academy.

The other guys you mentioned are decent but not cornerstones of the team and not even the best at their position in the league.

SAF is not stupid and it must genuinely be that the players are not good enough.

Shahram

I see your point shahram but i dont think the problem lies within the youth training system. Our academy and reserves have always been up there with the best in the country. but when a player outgrows the reserves, the transition to the first team is horrible. We do have talented players coming through, the problem lies within the senior training system imo, not the academy coaches.

As a matter of fact im starting to think that manchester united are not nurturing young talents anymore. Apart from Ronaldo, what world class player have we " nurtured ". In the last years we bought Nani, Anderson and Rooney who were al apparently destined for greatness and apart from Rooney ( who has not fulfilled the potential he had and imo didnt progress like we thought he would ).

Rafael and Fabio were crazy talented and were touted as the next big things in world football. Rafael is just starting to find his feet. Darron Gibson was a star in the making, but he just never improved. Same for Macheda.

So the problem truely lies with the first team coaches.

Mick

18 Oct 2012 20:32:15
would anyone think a front four of

van persie rooney Kagawa

lewendowski (how ever is spelt)

would just be pontent as anyone around with kagawa rooney an van interchanging as all can player across the top that would be something special in my opinion and that would allow playing time for young danny an chico i would like this team wat do you guys think ?

dio

Van Persie would be wasted on the wing

Andrew B

18 Oct 2012 18:34:31
Guys would you take Kevin p Boateng for Nani, straight swap?

Im not quite sure because kevin is quite overrated 9 so is nani ), but i think he would do a decent job as a box 2 box midfielder. He offers a bit of bite and physicality to a weak midfield. Better than the 12 mils milan are offering.

Mick

No he's not very good, he was avergae at Portsmouth, and only looks good at Milan as its a poor league.

18 Oct 2012 21:24:41
Erm, there is no question KPB is a good footballer.

Whistler.

18 Oct 2012 17:50:23
David Gill has been made Vice Chairman of The F.A. Congratulations to him. Now let the conspiracy theories begin.

I think we have all seen that if you offer Judas Gill the 30 pieces of silver he will sell his soul and conscience. Yes David I remember your speech that football clubs with a debt were the road to ruin. Then you were made the highest paid CEO in the country and you changed your mind. I AM KLOOT

18 Oct 2012 16:06:17
Thought to myself today, how far away are we from winning the champions league. Yes I'm sure some of you will say "look at Chelsea, we were better than them last year and they still won it" yes but nobody will ever get as lucky as they did again. I'm gonna put down two teams, one will be (in my opinion) our best team currently, and the second will be the changes I think will be needed for us to reign supreme again in Europe.

Strongest team with our current squad:-

-------------------De Gea------------------

--Rafael---Smalling---Vidic---Evra------

------------------Carrick--------------------

---------Cleverley---Anderson-----------

------------------Kagawa------------------

-----------Rooney------RVP---------------

Now in my opinion, this team is nowhere near good enough to compete at the top table in europe, probably quarter finals maybe semi-finals. (All be it, it is a team in transition with lots of young players in the squad)

Team with a chance of winning CL:-

-------------------De Gea-------------------

--Rafael--Smalling--Hummels--Baines/Cole

-----------Cleverley--Vidal-----------------

-----Kagawa----Rooney---Rodriguez----

--------------------RVP-----------------------

The signings (maybe apart from Vidal, Possible swap deal Money+Nani for Vidal) are reasonable and are very much possible, would also sell Chicharito and sign Lewnadowski, aswell as young signings thomas ince etc. This squad does need a major overhaul with the imminent retirements of Scholes and Giggs and I was wondering what REALISTIC teams do you think we could get to win us the champions league?

RedKnight

Lewandowski would probably want to start a lot of games though and lets face it he isn't going to as he isn't better than Rooney or Robin whereas Hernandez doesn't mind being on the bench.

I'm not sure with the obsession with Lewandowski as everytime i watch him he seems average. Not United quality.

I accept that there is a possibility of Hernandez being sold but if that does happen then there are other options out there.

That team would be class tbf but I'd take Baines over Cole for many reasons and I don't see the need to get Lewandowski as I think he'd want to start. I'd keep Hernandez for now

Gav

18 Oct 2012 14:57:05
Just a very quick point on the whole Hart/DDG debate. Everyone seem's to be forgetting that Hart plays behind a settled and solid defence in a team that pride themselves on being hard to break down whilst DDG has played just over a season behind a defence that is aging and suffered from poor from AND injury problems. Would Joe Hart look quite so unbeatable playing in a team that has gaping holes through the middle? I'm not sure he would. DDG's main problem at present is the language barrier and the experience of the defence infront of him. Once he finds his feet, his command of the box will improve tenfold.

TK-Red

Oh yes that's right and here's me thinking that it was just because he is a flapper who couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag. I AM KLOOT

I meant Kloot

DDG's main problem is he lacks confidence when coming for crosses. He needs to beef up and impose himself.

AJH

Similar could've been said about Joe Hart aged 21. So what's your point? Perhaps if DDG had Kompany playing in front of him, he wouldn't panic and rush out for crosses quite so often.

TK-Red

This is my point AJH. Confidence also comes from having more reliable players infront of you and being able to communicate effectively with them IMO. As for beefing up, that will happen in time.

TK-Red

2 words...seventeen million....

AJH

Big supporter of DDG but Spanish keepers are very rarely good from crosses/banging up against old-fashioned forwards in the air.

I dont expect that side of his game to ever become brilliant, it can improve, but still.

More worrying is, surely our scouts knew about this shortcoming? It was clear as day he was a skinny lad who would struggle in that department. Still, he's better Lindegaard IMO.

Lindegaard isn't amazing from crosses, and nowhere near as good a shotstopper as DDG.

RED_SKY

And Lindegaard isn't as good a kicker as well.

I still think Hart is better right NOW and think he would look more solid than DDG in goal for us. Having said that I have every faith DDG is improving, he's already improved a lot and his shot stopping has been immense

Gav

18 Oct 2012 12:31:27
Man Utd get serious about Porto dazzler Rodriguez
tribalfootball.com October 18, 2012, 11:05 pm

Manchester United are getting serious about their pursuit of Porto star James Rodriguez.

The Manchester Evening News says United are considering a January transfer window swoop for Colombian star Rodriguez.

The 21-year-old has been called the South American Cristiano Ronaldo and United have been monitoring his progress at Porto.

Rodriquez is aware of the interest.

wish we can be serious for once and get him , cos am tired of all this rumours
utd forever

18 Oct 2012 11:50:24
On the Young issue.

I think he is a good player and also will still develop further with our new style becoming allot more effective than we have seen.

His delivery is far more consistant than Nani although both have the problem of getting the consistancy right decision making wise.

IMO you get far more bang for your buck from Young and had he recieved 5 years worth of training from us I would be willing to bet he would be far more effective than Nani is just now.

On the DDG - Hart thing.

I think anyone with the need for a keeper right now if they had the option of purchasing one of the two of them pretty much all would sign Hart.

I'm not denying DDG has time on his hands and could (could) develop into a great keeper but like Barthez (coming from France) before I think his game is massively more suited to the Spanish game where shot stopping and distribution are more important than dealing with crosses and commanding.

Look at Casillas even he rarely screams at his defense or shines at crosses and he is the best Spain supposedly has to offer.

IMO Eastern European beasts who are more akin to diving at peoples feet and smashing into players without worrying about breaking a nail or someone bumping into them are a massive advantage in the English game.

Yes DDG will always show his great shot stopping ability as there needs to be that element to any top keeper but IMO will always fail when the bravery aspect comes to the fore ie on crosses or 1 on 1's and vocally as he just doesnt open his mouth.

I would love to see someone, anywhere on the park come in and have that Keane or Big Pete mentality where they scream at players and gee them up and get them going even if they havent done all that much wrong. SAF used to do that but has regressed into his seat more and more and we lack massively any sort of vocal leader on the park. Its those sort of players who can round the troops up and get them going in times of need and although we have the talent in certain areas we really miss that focal point leader who will lead by example and demand the best everytime from all around him.

I digressed a bit there but heh ho!

Jono

Jono, you're right about having a vocal player - I think everyone would agree with you there. Unfortunately we have nobody good enough at the moment. One of the world's greatest clubs without a 'proper' captain.
It should be Carrick as he is the central midfield player who SAF picks every time. But he just doesn't have the 'bite', does he? We need a strongman in the middle so, so badly.
Partly agree about Young. I think if Nani was given a run as the top right player in a 433 formation he would be brilliant. He is being played out of position on the left wing and it is very unfair on him. His decision making will always leave him down, but if he got more confidence I can see this part of his game improving.
DDG - Hart. Overall hart, only because DDG is a pussy with high balls. DDG's distribution on the ground is the best I have ever seen from a keeper. He is ideal for Barcelona. It is them, and not Real that will pursue him in a few years. DDG is also a better shot-stopper. Once he grows a pair by beefing up and from gaining experience DDG will be the best in the world.
Jono - Don't forget Scandinavian along with east-european keepers.

J Bones.

Jono,

Slight correction there. Goalkeeping IS all about shot stopping and distribution. A keeper who can yell all day long but not save anything is of no use whatsoever. And based on shot stopping, DDG is light years ahead of any GK on the planet, let alone Hart. So yeah, if you were to ask any non-Englishman, every single one of them would pick DDG.

No name

How on earth can you say DDG is light years ahead of Hart in terms of shot stopping?! Don't be daft! Hart in the 2 games City have been humped so far (real and dortmund) he showed umpteen times in both he is up with the best in shot stopping never mind the other aspects needed. Even had the balls to pick his team mates to shreds after the game for their performance.

I dont see DDG shouting during the game or outwith shotstopping doing anything on par or better than hart. only thing possibly you could point to is his ability with the ball at his feet ie the drag back earlier this season but that's hardly an area keepers should be rated on.

His lack of bravery will will always be a downfall in this country. As I said the shot stopping will always get highlighted as he does it well but that alone is not good enough for a world class keeper.

And no! I do not believe that anyone outwith England would choose DDG otherwise we would have had a great amount of competition for his signature and did we?

J Bones

I meant eastern and northern I must have not typed it in bud. They do come from good stock over there and produce a fair amount of good keepers.

Jono

Noname, you can't be serious? Do you watch Hart and think 'he's not that good a shot stopper?' because I don't....he's one of the best 'all round' young keepers around IMO

Gav

18 Oct 2012 10:53:47
Hi EDs,

I just wanted to ask you a question, We have just signed a player in the name of bruno gomez from brazil.

I wanted to know if he is any good for manchester united or does he have the potential to be a world beater?

Please if you could let me know {Ed002's Note - Gomes is just a kiddie - nobody knows how it will pan out.}

Thanks Ed. BTW i love this site.

18 Oct 2012 17:48:31
Have I missed something? is this to be announced?

Whistler.

18 Oct 2012 00:46:08
I totally agree but put your hand on your heart and tell me who you would rather have between the sticks for us. And he would have been ours for 300k. I AM KLOOT
----------------
Obviously Hart is a better goalkeeper right now, but he is 25. De Gea is 21. If you ask me again in 3 or 4 years, I'm willing to bet my answer will be De Gea.

G.A.G.U.S

Not a chance. Joe hart is a far better keeper.

De gea is average. Probley as good as krul

KLOOT, its all well and good saying he could of been ours for 300k but who is to say he would of progressed at utd like he has at city,it wasnt difficult for him to be given the chance at city whereas hart would of never replaced van der sar at that point in time, he would of probably ended up doing what ben foster did and moved to a lower club to play regulary,theres no point dwelling on it now,hes not ours,de gea is and im more than happy with him and like G.A.G.U.S says,in 3 years time we'll still be discussing de gea but it'll be a discussion about how good hes become.

phil

ATM, Hart is better only when it comes to dealing cross and long balls. And I believe De Gea is better in all other aspects

I would prefer De Gea.. maybe be because I'm a ManUtd fan :)
But I think, Hart being better is mainly down to solid and settled defense that city has...

Once Man Utd consistently play with a settled defense, I guess most people evaluation on De Gea will change. But I don't deny that Hart is a top quality player

AJ

Hart is vocal, can command his box and marshal his defence...when DeGea gets the b*lls to do that I believe his performances will improve drastically. As a Utd fan Id still have Hart ahead of young fluffy face.

IrishRed