Manchester United Banter Archive December 19 2017
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19 Dec 2017 21:35:32
Hi Eds - I took some time this morning to write a detailed reply to Shappy's post (I'm 8 hrs behind GMT), but the site has updated several times since without it going up, just wondering if you have decided not to post it? I don't like my fellow posters to think I am ignoring them or to waste my time with detailed posts if they don't go up, so if you could give me a heads up I'd appreciate it. Obviously it's your site and your prerogative what you put up, but I'd just prefer to know the lay of the land if there is a problem with my post so i don't spend so much time on things like this in the future. Cheers.
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{Ed002's Note - I don’t know what happened. Here is the post.
19 Dec 2017 20:14:30
Shappy – Clearly I am on a hiding to nothing replying to your post as there seems to be a lot of positive things to say about it from our fellow posters (I don’t mind playing the pantomime villain because I think it is necessary and on a Man Utd supporter site taking the “positive” angle which actually is pretty “defensive” like our team will always garner praise – too many excuses being made for systemic failure! I would say that I try to keep my posts as snappy as possible, obviously I’d like to elaborate to explain the rationale behind my thoughts but that takes up both a lot of time and a lot of space, your essay below requires a detailed response, so for those of you that are interested, get a brew on and take a trip into the mind of the Beast!
Firstly, I do not disagree with all of your post and quite often I agree with several aspects of many of the posts people make, I’d guess it’s just 25% of the points people make that I take umbrage with and it’s only worth pointing out those differences as we have an “agree/ disagree” button if we agree with all of it. I don’t think it’s a case of all or nothing and this applies to posts as much as it applies to ways the club can move forward or for that matter the way we play – there can be grey areas. Sometimes we play well, more often we don’t. I’d just like to see more of the good stuff and less of the bad stuff like everyone I’m sure. It’s also very easy to twist what people say on here and to create a false narrative, I’m sure people don’t do this maliciously but it happens all the time because I assume people take what they want to from posts they see.
In direct response to your questions/ points in the order they appear and hopefully these comments may clarify some misconceptions or at the least provide legitimacy for my frequent criticisms:
1 – Correct I am critical of our playing style, this isn’t solely based on how we played previously under SAF (I have never said this was solely the case so you are guilty of taking poetic license here) . In fact I am fully aware that with age people tend to remember things slightly better than they actually were, we were on the whole far more entertaining throughout the entire SAF tenure than what we are now, despite this, especially since the start of the Premier League. We did play some poor football at times under SAF, his last season was terrible despite romping the league. A key point that people need to remember is that benchmarks move, most people are praising Jose or at least judging him in comparison to LVG or Moyes, SAF was judged on the season before the last one and that was often a very good one performance wise by his Man Utd. So the benchmarks have changed because people have trouble remembering too much detail from 5+ years ago and we have had quick changes of management recently so that is an obvious barometer. It also fits the narrative of ‘progress ‘ if you use a really low benchmark like the LVG era. So I’m saying the dice are loaded, I argued at times that having no manager would be better than having LVG in that seat, so is it any surprise that with hundreds of million spent and one of the best managers ever coming in that the teams has improved a bit since LVG?
2 – We have in fact played amazing football 2 or 3 times this season imo, the West Ham game, the Burton game were both fantastic to watch. So Jose has done it, Moyes had us play amazing football a couple of times as well, the Leverkusen game stands out for me. Even the man that gave me something like 100 disagrees when I called for him to be sacked (which is handily swept under the memory lapse carpet once everyone else jumps on board), had a couple of great performances mixed amongst the rubbish (LVG) . What this tells me is that we are capable of playing amazing football now, the players and manager are just incapable of replicating it often enough because of the way we set up to play – freaks happen and unfortunately the amazing performances are freaks, whereas for the majority of the SAF reign the freaks were the boring/ awful performances. This frustrates me, because we have proven we can play fast, free flowing, productive football, but for some reason the manager doesn’t want to do that or is no longer good enough to do that.
3 – We have had vast investment in the squad in recent years, yet we play like a bunch of strangers most games and much of this money has been wasted – we struggle to pass and move into space, it is often long balls and individual moments of brilliance that constitute an attack – very rarely do we see players on the same wave length. SAF and other managers make mistakes in the transfer market so this isn’t necessarily just a Man Utd problem. However I struggle to recall another team getting things so wrong with the money they have spent and the wastage, we look like an International team more often than not. We have signed some players that should have gotten us on the edge of our seats, but alas the style and tactics deployed by our recent manager has handicapped this – that is very frustrating.
4 – Yes I hammered LVG and would have preferred Jose to come in much sooner, haven’t I been proven right? Granted the Jose we got was the Jose that lost his way at Chelsea (which I hoped wouldn’t be the case), but that has still proven to be better than LVG hasn’t it? I am still unhappy because the Jose I wanted was the Jose that was 100% committed and was better than the Jose we currently have. People change, just like with LVG, most fans were pointing to his great record to justify his appointment and giving him time, well the LVG we signed up wasn’t the same guy that had all that success years before, I think we are seeing a toned down version of this with Jose. His time of being a pioneer is behind him, like most managers as they get older they get even more defensive, less risk takers, more stubborn and less committed.
5 – I’d like to interview candidates for the job, but going off what I have seen I would take the Monaco manager as I have said over a dozen times on this site. Based purely on the fact he has coached overseas, is young, has his team play football the way I like to see it played and he is relatively unknown, so other managers will not have studied him on the way to becoming managers (unlike Jose and LVG) . I don’t know if he was responsible for player recruitment or not, but whoever was at Monaco I would take them as well as clearly they have an eye for talent and the manager knew how to get the most out of that talent – something we do not see often.
6 – I remember it took a while for SAF to get things going, however he took over a club in a mess. The Man Utd of 1986 is a completely different animal to the Man Utd of 2016. Comparing the two things to justify what we are seeing now is nonsensical to me, especially as we have seen with teams like Leicester how quickly you can turn a team from relegation fodder into title winners with the right management and signings (for 1/ 10th of the money we spent) .
7 – Rome wasn’t built in a day. Correct, but it had a lot of bad Emperors and they were often taken out before they could do too much trouble, what happened to Rome as well – SAF built Rome, the past 3 managers are destroying it imo?! Jose isn’t known for building anything, he signs, does well (normally), then leaves under a cloud a few years later. The club wanted LVG to build up Rome again, the problem was he wasn’t capable, Jose was brought in because they needed immediate success to salvage massive sponsorship payments and to correct the damage that had occurred in recent years – the club are not building anything with Jose as manager, he is not a builder, he is a winner at all costs – which is why I am so critical, because City are pulling further ahead and winning the CL will be luck if it happens because every one of us would agree that we do not have the best team in Europe and Jose doesn’t look like he can change that unless he has £500m to spend, because we need a lot more quality to compensate for the way the manager sets us out. His one role will be to win things of importance, I don’t think that looks too likely at the moment.
8 – I don’t buy into fans earning the right to watch good football (or being spoiled), especially City fans. I simply look at the players we have, the manager we have, the support the manager has, the funds and our attacking pedigree as a club and make a call on whether or not we are doing as well as we should be. I am not as emotional about things as I used to be, partly on account of age but mostly because I have never felt so detached from the club. We have owners that don’t seem to have a clue about the football side (or care), Woody seems clueless as well, Jose seems uncommitted and has us playing negative tactics, the players for the most part seem unbothered (remember defeats where they are laughing and joking with opponents at the final whistle) . The entertainment levels are much lower watching us, and neutrals will say this as well – we are a very hard watch compared to recent history anybody without blinkers on will agree to this. I see no reason whatsoever why that has to be the case, it simply doesn’t have to be like this so why are we so quick to simply accept it as a necessary evil, says who?
9 – Pogba – we shouldn’t be so reliant on one player and this praise for him is hyped out of all proportion. How many great games has he played for us? How many times has he been the difference maker on the pitch (not off it)? We are not a one man team because Pogba turns up 1/ 5 games, but more than that recently, but we shouldn’t exagerate. He and DDG are our two world class talents without a doubt, but big players are missed by other teams and frankly I’m not happy putting all of our eggs in the Pogba basket, he hasn’t earned it yet. Besides it’s a bit of a poor indictment on the rest of the team and manager if we are so reliant on one player being both available and then on form – he has had more poor games in his Utd career than he has had good games imo, so saying a fit Pogba means we win stuff is wishful thinking only.
10 – We shouldn’t be wallowing in what City are doing, we should be rising to the challenge laid down. We should be using them as the current benchmark, simply throwing our arms in the air and saying “but City are record breakers” is not what winners do and that is exactly why we are not competing. We have much more going for us over City, we had a massive head-start that was blundered by Moyes and LVG, but Jose should be closing that gap with the investment he has had and the support, but we are falling farther behind – that is not acceptable to me, nor should it be to any of our fans.
11 – Comparing ourselves to where we were 2 years ago is like putting a heavyweight against a fly weight in a boxing match. I’m not surprised you want to do that because it makes us look good, I’d rather compare us to the holder of all the heavyweight belts at the moment and say why aren’t we holding those belts, how do we hold those belts, not “look we just pulverised a little kid in the ring, look how strong I am compared to that runt”.
So in summary, I see the progress from LVG, I was expecting a lot more. I see boring games most times I watch us, I see hoofing it far too often, little interchange between players, limited risks being taken, limited ambition on the pitch, fear whenever there is one goal in it and we approach 20 minutes to go almost every game. DDG making more saves than any of GK in the league so far and we have wasted so much money in recent years it is beyond disgusting.
We had a golden opportunity to bring glory back, but we are wasting it and our main rival domestically is capitalising in a phenomenal way, this adds insult to injury. We are falling further behind in the race, so I don’t see progress, I see regression when judged against the levels we should be competing at. There is far too much papering over cracks going on and kids will be switching off when we are on the TV, that will hurt us in 10 years time massively – we still have time to salvage what took a generation to build, but playing this negative football with a sad/ depressive manager is not the way to do it imo, shame as Jose 10 years ago would do a lot more with these tools, we need the next bright eyed, progressive version, but somebody that believes in attacking is the best way of defence, just like Barcelona, City, PSG and Bayern do.
I support Man Utd as much as any fan – I just don’t support the vision or approach, many ways to skin a cat of course, we are just choosing the most difficult and painful version for some crazy reason, and we are being subjected to every agonising moment of it! Shame.
19 Dec 2017 21:50:31
Thanks Ed appreciated.
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19 Dec 2017 22:24:10
Well written response Beast and I agree with much of what you say mate.
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19 Dec 2017 22:41:31
Beast, simple question mate, would you prefer winning trophies our current way or have the monaco manager and take a gamble? i'm sorry if you answer this in your post. I didn't get chance to read it all.
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19 Dec 2017 22:50:55
beast i think you should be playing solitaire than watching football.
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19 Dec 2017 22:54:44
Gamble, because do we look like winning the league this way or the CL? Football is meant to be entertaining, winning is for those that benefit from the win (financial/ career/ satisfaction), of course we all derive satisfaction from our team winning, but it is momentary, the memories most of us have are not watching us lift a trophy, it's the quality moments, the feeling of being part of something special, and that comes from being entertained, watching excellence is pleasurable to most people. Watching Utd is boring for the most part now, it's anti-football, a perversion of the game imo. Safety first is for the under-dog and legitimate under-dog, not the team that chooses to be an under-dog when they should be top-dog.
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19 Dec 2017 23:21:41
Beast, I can't agree that we have yet had an opportunity to bring glory back. We might have had, had we never hired Moyes on SAF's and then followed up with LVG. But that's what happened and you can't blame Mourinho for any of that. What happened before his tenure including the amount of money we wasted on overpriced players who did not fit into any overall plan is squarely the responsibility of the club itself. Nor can you blame the failure to modernize the club, nor our inability or refusal to replace any of our very best players with those of equal quality during the latter stages of SAF's tenure, which I believe is at the heart of the struggles we have faced.
The fact is that City have had a consistent program of development and an open checkbook in place since they were purchased, whereas for most of the Glazer period ours was apparently closed thanks to the enormous debt servicing requirements. Managerial changes at the Etihad have been proactive, part of a fine tuning process within a long term structural plan, whereas ours have been largely reactive. You can't blame Mourinho for that, nor the financial reality that Champions League qualification is a requirement.
So, the United you see today is primarily the result of a set of circumstances that developed in the period before this manager's control. Okay, so the purse strings have now been opened, but City have still spent more than us over the last couple of years, and we're still at the beginning of formulating the next United. Recruitment of any player has been tortuous, partly, I think, because the inner difficulties at the club, which have been obvious to all, and made United a relatively unappealing destination for top talent. That will only change when we are seen to have stabilized the club, and perceived to be a perennial contender once again.
Expansive football requires the right personnel. But the right personnel will only be attracted to a club culture that is built on an enduring winning philosophy and because this is so, winning is quite correctly a priority over style. I wish we were further along but am delighted that we are in 2nd position, 7 point clear of 4th, with 39 goals scored and with a record that is on a par with many previous champions. I don't think we could or should expect any more at this moment in time. If we end up second and look like we're on the up, then next summer should see the purchase of 2 or 3 more top players to fill in the obvious gaps, and in particular to add midfield strength making us less reliant on Pogba. But in the meantime, I really don't think your argument that we haven't made any progress holds any water whatsoever.
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19 Dec 2017 23:30:47
beast i do not listen to pundits but there will be no dominance in football like liverpool or united as the foxes proved there is to mutch money involved sit back and enjoy the ride life is to short.
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19 Dec 2017 23:43:33
Thanks for the response Shaw. I'm not putting this all on Jose, but I don't think he has a plan to suddenly switch his style, there will be no "right" time to do this. So my fear about Jose is that we are building towards what exactly? Finishing 2nd every season playing mind numbing football. City have improved more than we have, so how do we make that difference up with negative football that will not attract many elite players? We won't win the league playing this way because Man City do exist and can attract players that we don't.
My whole post is primarily focused on the different benchmarks being used. Of course we have made progress compared to recent seasons in the world of Man Utd - we have spent hundreds of million during that time so I would hope and expect to see the club doing better than it was. But I am looking at the benchmark of progress being external, how have we progressed compared to Man City, PSG for example? Yes they have massive amounts of money, but I fear that had we the same money we would be in a similar position, because let's face it, we have wasted over 50% of the funds we have spent in recent years and many top players do not seem to want to sign for us.
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20 Dec 2017 00:40:57
Ok mate respect your honest opinion.
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20 Dec 2017 09:21:34
Hey Beast,
I actually think you make some excellent points but if I may be so bold, your use of hyperbole weakens rather than strengthens your arguments, because the listener/ reader only focusses on the hyperbole and not the good point. I mean the following quotes are only two of many examples from your posts.
"we are being subjected to every agonising moment of it! Shame. "
"a perversion of the game. "
Not that you're asking for my advice, but if you toned this down you'd be on less hidings to nothing.
Personally, I haven't used hyperbole in a million years. ;)
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20 Dec 2017 09:50:31
Beast. First of all, thank you for writing the post. It must have taken a lot of time and effort to do so. So hopefully most will treat it seriously as it deserves it.
For me, I agreed with Shappy on a few points, but the post you have wrote should be "the post of the year". I agree with it in its entirety.
I especially Mark out points 8, 10 and 11.
On point 8, you rightly cited the fact that the owners are not football people (A point I've been saying for years) . Also, Woodward hasn't got a clue. And the fact that our manager doesn't seem as up for it or as emotional as he was during his stints at Real, Inter and his first years at Chelsea.
On point 10, I fully agree. I've been saying for some time that we can't allow City to keep outspending us and out performing us on all areas. Some posters even got upset thinking I was heaping too much praise on City. That was not the intention. The intention is to make people aware that there's a new monster and we've either got to stand up and fight or be eaten. It seems that the latter is being allowed to happen. Even Some of our own supporters seem to think it's ok that we're second and as long as we're 8 points ahead of 4th place, then it's fine. Well, its not fine in my book as being second and 11 points behind the leaders might be success for Arsenal or Spurs or Burnley, but it is not success for United.
Point 11, as I said in a previous post, it's no good saying we're improving in comparison to previous seasons. Are we improving against City, Real, Barca, psg or Bayern? I think the most ardent United fan will be lying through their shiny teeth to answer positively to that question. There are quite a few posters on here who are still of the opinion that City's bubble will just burst, aka Newcastle a few years back. I'm afraid that's not going to happen. Just like the great United sides, city have too many good players and a very experienced manager. Yes, they might lose a couple of games but they're not going to blow up and disintegrate into thin air. So the point is to recognize their improvement and try to emulate it and better it.
Like you, I've been watching United for a very long time, and like you, I go to my seat in the Singing Section and we stand up and sing throughout the match. And like you, I've never been so nonplussed and disillusioned about the way the club is being run.
This is huge business, but it is also an entertainment business. Some clubs are managing to be successful and entertaining. But our club has owners and people in charge with only material success as a priority, because they know that no matter what happens, the fans will turn up and the profits will surge. To mix entertainment with success, you need management who care about all aspects. Sadly, this is not the United way at present, and even more worryingly, some of our fans are almost content with it. That cannot be allowed to happen.
Once again, thank you for an excellent post Beast, the best I've read on this site.
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20 Dec 2017 10:17:09
I agree with s lot of what both Shappy and Beast said. We are improving but the key for me is whether Jose is the same coach he was or whether he is now more of a Wenger - he’s been found out and will not hit the same heights again. As for comparisons with City, out of the top 6 I think the other 5 play more exciting faster attacking football than we do. Now I know I will get shouted down as we are second and have scored more than all bar City but I’m just saying what I see.
However, I do think we are only a couple of players away from being there, assuming Jose I sent prepared to be expansive. I don’t agree with the Rashford / Martial rotation as it isn’t giving either of them a decent run. They probably play wondering at what point the will be subbed for the other. Lukaku has an excellent scoring record yet now he’s playing for a to side the goals have dried up, that needs urgently fixing.
The worry is we are playing catch up, other top European teams will not be standing still so we need to accelerate somehow.
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19 Dec 2017 18:10:51
Great post by Shappy, a lot of which I agree with but as with everything there are several layers to consider and I’d like to make a wider point which is, who are we and what do we stand for?
I’m a little older so remember Docherty, Sexton, and Atkinson as well. Sexton was truly dreadful and the football was horrible but Tommy D and Big Ron always tried to play attacking and entertaining football, usually with wingers. SAF did the same but as has been pointed out it took some time before he got there. His early years weren’t great and the football was patchy, but once he got going then we knew how we would play.
So, Busby, Docherty, Atkinson, and SAF were all instinctively attacking Managers. It doesn’t mean every game was exciting but their core belief was to attack and by default, entertain. Surely that’s who we are and that’s what we stand for.
The debate is whether Jose is and can deliver that. LVG was a nightmare and like others I actually stopped watching on occasions it was that bad. I think in patches we are playing very well and so far have scored a lot of goals, but there is clearly room for improvement and more consistency. He delivered both success and entertainment at Chelsea and Madrid and perhaps when he gets the players he wants we will see a more expansive style.
As for Beast, I think he is our conscience, he points out some of the things that many posters choose to ignore. Yes he can be overly emotional and negative but the passion is clear and I think some settle for average a little too easily.
As I pointed out recently we have made progress and as one who sat through years of winning very little then I am happy to see year on year progress towards our return to the top. My issue, and it’s one I’ve never hidden, is that Jose does not stand for what we stand for, and I don’t think he ever will.
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19 Dec 2017 18:23:09
Good post ajh.
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19 Dec 2017 18:28:31
Beautiful post below shappy, hit the nail bang on there. brought tears as well.
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19 Dec 2017 18:58:21
Good post ajh, I find beast just calls a spade a spade duznt offend or try to appease . It's about more than the result to some and to some the enjoyment comes from the result . We haven't been dull every game but we haven't been thrilling all the time either . Hopefully we all want to see a bit of skill and flair added to the team over the coming windows.
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19 Dec 2017 20:48:46
Top post AJH. I think both yours and shappy’s post below has summed up our current situation perfectly. We have clearly improved massively from last season but city have been on another level. I think we have shown this year that we are well capable on performing at a very high level and we have the players to do so but we seem to be lacking the consistency to do it on a regular basis. This is what is frustrating all of us fans. The talent is there but we are not using it to it’s full potential. I think beast’s opinions come from credible arguments but I do find his hyperbole a little too dramatic for my liking. I think we just need to knuckle down, get pogba back and keep winnings games. If city drop points we must be there waiting to take advantage. Still been an improvement and we are one more summer window away from Jose having the team he wants so lots to be excited about.
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19 Dec 2017 21:26:26
Tony and Slate are spot on. Beast doesn't settle for second best and neither should anyone at our club, and that includes us fans. We cannot be happy with the fact we've improved on last season. The fact is that we're a distant second to city and we should all hate this until we can change the situation.
At their game vs leicester, City fans singing "who the f. k are man united". Do we want to accept we're second best or do we do sonething about it.
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19 Dec 2017 22:12:19
I have absolutely no problem with beast he is articulate, witty and sometimes spot in with his observations, however for the most part it is just constant blunt force negativity.
I know we haven't been perfect, I know there have been disappointing moments but we are moving in the right direction I cannot believe anyone thinks were not .
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20 Dec 2017 09:22:23
Schmid,
They have always sang that song about us even when we were winning everything, I love that most of their songs are about us, hated, adored, never ignored.
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19 Dec 2017 14:25:44
Sky sports reporting that Atletico will report Barcelona to Fifa over alleged illegal approach for Antoine Griezmann. let's hope that somehow brings him to United😂.
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{Ed002's Note - It is nothing whatsoever to do with Manchester United.}
19 Dec 2017 14:46:33
Wrong sort of player for united.
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20 Dec 2017 16:59:59
It's a lot got to do with United if Barcelona can't sign him we'll be favourites to get him.
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19 Dec 2017 11:06:24
Beast, you seem to always have a bee in your bonnet over playing style. You say this is because this current United team doesn't live up to your expectations which themselves are based on how you remember us playing years ago.
I have a few questions to ask if you'll indulge me. Firstly how many years ago was this amazing football and for how many years did we play it?
You were as I remember rather against LVG, and before we sacked him even questioned why he was still at the club when a coach such as Jose Mourinho was available. Well you got your wish and we have Jose now. Yet your still unhappy. Who do you want to see manage us now? Pochettino and Klopp have their teams playing some nice football, as does Arsene as always, yet when I check the table they are currently between 7-10 points worse off than we are. Or between 18-22 points worse off than the league leaders.
So here's how I see our club.
Being in my early 30's I don't remember anything pre Sir Alex. But having spoken to many fans and having watched many games throughout our history what I seem to find is no one talks about pre Sir Matt, so it's pretty safe to assume we didn't set the world alight before him. He is considered by many to be the founding father of what the club tries to be today. Many of the famed Manchester United ways started with him, giving youth a chance and playing a swashbuckling style of football. After he left we had a very mixed bag until Sir Alex came to the club. From 1971 until 1986 we had 15 years of very hit and miss football. A good cup team they called us. Sir Alex took 5 years to re-establish the club making it 26 years between titles. The 90's were a golden time to be a United fan. We played great football at times and at others we fought. We didn't always play great football, but when we didn't we battled. We did suffer a 4-5 year blip under Sir Alex in the early 00's, which we recovered from mostly by spending our way out of it. We spent a world record fee for a defender on Rio, we spent big on Veron, van Nistelrooy, Rooney, Berbatov, Nani and Anderson we also spent wisely on Carrick Vidic, Evra and Ronaldo. It got us back ahead of the curve again for a short while, then key players such as Scholes, Neville and Giggs started to slow down and become less effective. We lost key players like RVN and Ronaldo to Real Madrid, some of our big name buys (Veron, Hargreaves, Nani and Anderson) failed to work out as planned and in the final few years Sir Alex did what I consider in hindsight to be his best work, winning titles with a inferior squad to our rivals. Something we didn't have to do too often during his time at the club. But the football couldn't be described as swashbuckling or particularly great to watch, functional and solid at the back.
People forget it took both Sir Alex and Sir Matt 6 years to win a title with us, and both played defensively and functionally when needed, especially in their early and later years at the club.
In nearly 140 years our club is remembered for 15-20 great years under SIr Matt and 15-20 great years under Sir Alex. How was the football for the other 100+ years?
If you had the advantage of living through the whole history of our club then maybe you would have a slightly different outlook to where we find ourselves currently.
You seem to have no patience or appreciation for the fact that Rome wasn't built in a day.
It's easy to look over at City atm and wonder what if, but you need to appreciate it has taken them nearly 10 years to get to where they are now. Why do you think their stadium is never full? Because their fans have had to endure some dyer football over the years, Keegan, Pearce, Hughes, Sven Goran-Eriksson before Mancini won their first title in 44 years. Since then they have won it once more, they will probably win it again this season making it 3 league titles in 49 years.
As much as it pains me to say it, do you not think their fans have earned the right to see a team play good football for a while?
Yes we need to rise to the challenge, but you cannot rise to a challenge until one is presented to you, City were half the team last year compared to what we see today. No one expected City to play in this manner this season. To do so they had to spend nearly 200m on defenders and a goalkeeper in the summer. Others players have progressed too, Sterling and Sane two young players look far more consistent this season, so much so that the 70m player they bought to play on the right in Bernardo Silva has been restricted to a sub role. It would appear not even the City coaching staff expected Sterling and Sane to play this well this season.
Our team does need to up their game, but as City have shown you need to invest heavily to make that jump, something we can't do mid season. So Jose has to make do with what he has. When Pogba is fit we are averaging 3-4 goals a game, hardly boring stuff. Unfortunately he isn't always fit or able to play and we lack the depth to cover him. That is an issue to be addressed in the summer. We are second in the league, have outscored everyone bar the team above us. Have defender better than everyone, we have one of our best point totals by this point of the season in our history, we won two cups last season and are currently well placed in three cup competitions this year.
Yes we all want to see us play football like City, but currently we lack the squad to do so, so until we do what is to be gained from bringing it up every two days?
City are doing extremely well at the moment, why do we need to wallow in it? What is to be gained?
Let's stop comparing ourselves to City this season as until we bring in 100-200m worth of players we won't be able to compete with them on every front.
Let's instead compare ourselves to where we were a couple of seasons ago, let's compare ourselves to where we were last season. There is improvement, and we are getting better.
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19 Dec 2017 12:05:21
Bang on the money Shaps, anyone who thinks SAF always played excellent football is kidding themself, he only played like that when he his teams were at a peak with some of the best players in the world.
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19 Dec 2017 12:27:15
You make some interesting and legitimate points Shappy and whilst I’m not Beast as you’ve posted it on a public forum I’d like to offer my opinion.
I’ve got at least 10 years on you and I do remember the pre Ferguson era and it’s the main reason I became a United supporter because of all the teams that played it seemed to me that United were the ones that kept you on the edge of my seat with great attacking wing play and fast, breakneck speed football. I remember fondly the 10 win streak that should’ve given Atkinson his first title……. and the subsequent collapse. Unfortunately back in those days we could be hit and miss too but it wasn’t for lack of trying. Liverpool were winning title after title back then but I hated watching them because their brand of football bored me to tears. I think they were the sole reason the back pass to the keeper was outlawed. No coincidence that when it was they stopped winning. At least that’s what it seems like to my now fuzzy memory
I’m a dyed in the wool United fan and it all stems from my earliest memories of the team and their swashbuckling, often kamikaze and occasional comical performances. New, young supporters will become the lifeblood of the club and as well as supporting a trophy winning team they need to be entertained………Honestly, the number of Spurs supporters I now see is ridiculous. They must be breeding like rabbits.
Onto United today. There is no doubt that we are a side that is improving and compared to last year we are winning the games that we were drawing last year and that is good. However to use an analogy (something Beast often likes to do), if a leading manufacturer of battery powered vehicles has a car with an average driving range of 150 miles between charges and then a new manufacturer comes out with one that has a range of 300 miles there is no point in the original manufacturer continuing to invest in R&D to make a new car that has a range of 200 miles. Yes it’s an improvement on their old car but the landscape changes overnight. They need to tear up the rule book and start looking at how to come up with a car that has a range of 350+ miles to get ahead of the competition again.
Citeh and Pep are the new manufacture with the range of 300 miles and if he proves that his style of football can win titles in the Premier league (which I think everyone doubted originally) then the reality is that Jose will need to really think about how he goes about winning trophies. Maybe this is the kind of battle that he’ll relish and it will make him an even better manager than he already is.
I’m all in for Jose and I wanted him at the club and I think he’s the right guy so I hope the board continue to back him to the hilt and I hope that he really commits to the club and brings back the style, panache and swagger of the glory days.
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19 Dec 2017 12:29:57
Shappy,
There’s 10 days to go mate but I doubt anyone is going to beat that for post of the year, brilliantly put together, well said and I actually agree with every single word. Perhaps it is something to do with us being a similar age but I literally could have written that post (though probably not as eloquently as you did) .
So many things to talk about from it but the point about us improving this year has to be the main thing, any other season we would be Top of the league with the most goals and everybody would be raving about us. Unfortunately dropped points at Chelsea and a silly away result at Huddersfield (which happened many times under Fergie, I remember losing 1-0 at wolves amongst others) have seen us drop a little behind the team with the best record ever after 18 games.
Beast wanted more goals and more excitement, he got that but because we aren’t top of the league it’s still time to moan, for some people they aren’t happy unless they are moaning though we know that from being on here, even if we were in city’s position some would find something to complain about.
Once again, well done Shappy, great post.
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19 Dec 2017 12:45:27
71
On the money pal definitely on the pass back rule . Liverpool killed the game constantly passing it back to the Gk.
Good day for football when the back pass rule come in.
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19 Dec 2017 13:41:23
In Andy grays famous words shappy
"Take a bow"
This is the best post all year.
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19 Dec 2017 13:55:27
Shappy is only in his 30s!?!
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19 Dec 2017 14:00:40
Fabulous post shappy.
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19 Dec 2017 14:01:31
Your best essay this year.
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19 Dec 2017 14:28:25
Well said shappy! Completely agree with you. People need to stop watching the bit before, in the middle and after the game and form own opinion rather than listening to souness and co.
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19 Dec 2017 15:01:45
@ stringer. I KNOW!
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19 Dec 2017 15:08:08
Best post of the year Shappy. Voice of reason as always.
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19 Dec 2017 15:09:49
Unitedred71, It’s funny what time does to our memories. I was not there during the 70’s and 80’s so I can’t really argue whether they were good years to watch United or not, I’ve watched highlights from those decades, but there weren’t many of them.
Everyone I think feels the same way on their last day of school, excited and happy that it's over. Maybe a little apprehensive about what comes next but still over the moon about not having to go back to school again. Yet within 10-15 years they will say school was the best time of their lives. Now the accepted logic is that you had no idea what being an adult was like, and if you did you would have been happier about being at school during your time at school. However, I think this is being very disingenuous to young people. When our kids, our nieces and nephews say they don’t like school and we pipe in with “its the best time of your life” I don’t think that's fair. How many of us would really want to go back to school?
Currently I am procrastinating as the essay I am supposed to be writing isn’t one to be posted on here. I have gone back into education, and one thing you quickly forget is the hours upon hours of classes, sitting there being spoken to, he homework and the maths classes. Next time you find yourself saying to a child “school is the best time of your life” ask them for their homework and then sit down and have a go and tell me how much fun that is?
The truth is how we feel on our last day of school is a genuine feeling of our time at school, however over the years you forget about the maths lessons, the being talked down to, the homework, the fact that it only rains during lunch time and after 3pm. What we remember is the messing about with our mates, the skiving off, the long holidays and playing pranks on the teachers. In short we remember all the good stuff while conveniently forgetting the bad stuff.
Why am I saying this? Well because I think that is just how our minds work, it's amazing how much better our life was 10-15 years ago. That rosy tint that gets added with nostalgia, that sepia tint that clouds our memories.
That’s why so many of us have forgotten how it really was under Sir Alex, and why we hold current managers not just up to the standard of our greatest ever manager (in terms of winning titles) but an elevated unrealistic version of him which only exists in our memories. For those of us who lived through the Sir Alex years, they will get better with time, but we need to be careful not to add an unrealistic expectation on the current United team and manager based on those memories, we will only end up disappointed every time.
As for your analogy I’m not sure it stacks up. Football teams are not like manufactured products, where once you have created a technology you can continue to build on in it and improve it.
Do you ever believe a human will run the 100m in 1 second? Of course you don’t even though people keep running faster and faster as time goes on. You still accept that there is a limit to what a person can do. Well when you stick 11 football players out on a pitch their ability to do better than before will eventually wane. When players age and their ability to effect the game drops the quality of the team drops. Sure you can buy another player but that player is a totally different human being and may not fit into the team in the same way.
We got thrashed twic by possibly the greatest Barcelona side of all time, yet they are nowhere near that level now. Xavi and Puyol have retired, Iniesta is a shadow of the player he was. They bought arguably better players in Suarez and Neymar than the ones they had before in Pedro and Villa and yet the quality of the team still dipped.
Yes at this moment in time Man City look phenomenal, but will they always play at this level from now on? Of course not, David Silva, Kompany and Fernandinho are getting on, players will get bored, or injured or just want to move on. Pep will want to move on at some point. He will probably burn the players out like he has at every other club he has been at. To get this level of performance out of a team you need to push them so hard that eventually they break down. It's too intense.
Currently they are setting records, maybe one day those records will be broken, maybe not. But they are unlikely to continue to play at this level indefinitely, sure we should be aiming to over take them, and of course I would want that to be by us becoming better than they are currently, but the reality is we will over take them as we improve and they decline.
Oh and thanks guys your all too kind. lol.
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19 Dec 2017 15:13:22
Nice words and agree totally.
I like Jose, I like the way we are improving, and like the way jose knows exactly what is needed to improve. All but one of his signings have been a success so far, and a winter and summer window more will see us challenging in the league and champions league.
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19 Dec 2017 16:05:55
Jose won't be at United for that long imo probably less than pep at city if he wants to be successful he needs to find a way to beat city and pep.
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19 Dec 2017 16:17:27
Peps gone in 18 months. Its no secret. Will Jose be here in that time? Who knows.
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19 Dec 2017 16:39:15
Jred, I agree. Jose has never stuck around long at any club, and he isn't giving off the signs that he is about to break the habit of a life time. Pep I think will maybe stay at City a year longer than he has at other clubs. Supposedly City want to extend his contract, I guess Pep will have to show his hand then, I can't see him signing more than a two year deal, but more likely a one year extension.
Pep's teams do tend to start to become a little weary in his third season, the intensity on the training catches up with the players. So I expect City to be not as good next season. I think that looks like our best chance to beat this City side. As long as Jose holds it together for that long, he too has a habit of burning out his players.
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19 Dec 2017 16:46:20
To start with Shappy, I disliked school immensely and couldn’t wait to leave and my memory hasn’t changed that at all and I pity anyone who still has to go to school so we start off with a disagreement.
For sure time dulls the memory and often we look back at things through rose tinted spectacles but I also genuinely believe that there are peaks and troughs in whatever you do, whether that is work life, love life, family life or even football. So why can’t I look back at the time under SAF and remember with fondness the style of football we played and remember those peaks as being a prolonged passage of time. Why do you think this is an inaccurate memory, because in my opinion it is not?
For sure there were some years where performance levels dipped but if I look back on his tenure as a whole, for me it was, in the main, bloody fantastic. The only blight on his record is, as you point out, his overall lack of success in the champions league so I think mine is a pretty honest and fair reflection.
Since SAF stepped down we have struggled to get anywhere near that level of consistency or quality of football. Whilst he was manager I never thought we would lose a game even if we were 2-0 down with 5 minutes to play but I never get this feeling anymore and I put it to you that your need to get across your point of view is allowing you to taint the reality of what you are actually seeing and you now prefer to look back through brown tinted spectacles to help support your claims
I’m not quite where Beast is but I think he makes some fair comments and observations. Emotionally I want to disagree with him and sometimes I do but quite often he’s right. Like I said, I’m 100% up for Jose and at times we’ve looked great but let’s not kid ourselves that we are anywhere near the level we should be and the concern I have when I look at the squad is how unbalanced it still looks, how we over rely on one player and how ageing it still looks despite the massive investment. No doubt my expectations are high, maybe a little bit too high but hey if I wanted mediocrity I’d support Arsenal.
Peace and Love to all.
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19 Dec 2017 17:05:31
Interesting post Shappy but I totally agree with Unitedred71. We can't say that because we've improved on last year then that's fine. It isn't fine because we're 11 points behind city. We need to up our game and if that means investing in world class players, then we need to do it.
I think mourinho will get it right but the owners need to back him up completely.
No one is interested in coming second. We are a long way short of Real, Barca, Bayern, city and psg.
I also agree that we played good football in the Docherty era which unfortunately didn't last long due to his misdemeanours. We played good football under Atkinson too.
But I agree Rome was not built in a day, but Fergie retired 5 years ago and the Glazers have been here over 12 years, so when are we going to be on par with the top clubs.
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19 Dec 2017 19:42:00
Uniderred71, I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. Are you really saying you hand on heart would say the football of 87, 88 and 89 was better than what we are seeing this season? Or the final few seasons under Sir Alex when he couldn't lift the team to the level of Barcelona and the dip we went into after that? Or the football of the Djemba-Djemba years?
Only twice under Sir Alex have we had more points at this stage of the season, only three times in 26 years have we scored more goals by this stage of the season.
I mean sure the football isn't breathtaking but it's a long way from boring.
Attack, all we can do is keep trying to improve. And we are. Is it enough to win the league? Maybe not this year. But I would say in nearly every other year it would probably have been. City are having an exceptional year this season, one that probably won't be repeated for quite awhile. We are likely to have jumped from 6th to 2nd. That's a great improvement.
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19 Dec 2017 20:53:22
The 70's and the 80's weren't all that bad, in those days you could have a couple in either The Gorse, The Tollgate or The Dog and Partridge and still pay on the gate at 3.15.
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19 Dec 2017 23:54:59
What a post shappy!
As mentioned above - winner for 2017.
Also mentioned above - early 30s? Wow.
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