19 Nov 2014 21:30:39
Hey guys, I see a Rooney debate has got going again.
Here's my thoughts,
Rooney is a very good player, a great for England & fast becoming a legend(yes I said it) at United, his record is up there with anyone from these teams. He wears the red, and I'll always support whoever does.
Forget the many stand offs etc, I think many people's views are out of frustration, a frustration that a boy with so much ability and hunger never truly made the most of what he had. People see Rooney and almost see themselves, and lad from a working-class background given a unbelievable talent, one of which has made him very rich and marketable. He has shown how good he is but all people can see is how good he could of been.
A talent? A great? A legend? That's really all irrelevant for now, all really most people want from Rooney is to see him reach the heights we all know he can.
Over the last 2 seasons we have all seen a mature Rooney, one that has never been seen shirking a role, sure he has thrown his toys out of the pram at times, but which player has not? He didn't want to be the answer to a problem we had in midfield, he was an option, one that could get us through half a season, but he didn't want that to be his role. Is that really that bad? A player we all want to see reach his full potential putting his foot down and backing himself to further improve in his position, I for one don't have any qualms with that. good on him, now go out and show you was right to!
Throughout all his football life one thing can not be questioned, commitment when on the field of play. of course that should be the least we want but it is something u can never really throw at Wayne as an argument.
Wayne has seen them come and go, even aqcomated some to the detriment of his own game. But he's still here and he's still doing the business for us.
I've bashed him, I've criticised him I've even disregarded him as a person at one point, but really when you get down to the crux of it, Wayne Rooney has given us more great times than bad and for that he deserves everyone respect.
So I ask let's maybe now start showing Wayne some love again from all fans, because right now Wayne is playing as well as he has for a while and maybe, just maybe it might be the catalyst to finally see the real Wayne Rooney, which I'm sure we can all agree is what we all really want to see at the end of the day.
Sorry bout the length if post lol.
Chris
fair play
Excellent post Chrissy!!! Cheers
Deeps.
Very good post Chris. Agreed, let's get behind him. He could have some great years ahead for us as captain.
Great post I have said things about Wayne Rooney in the past but as long as he is wearing his heart out for Us I will keep supporting him.
To be honest, i never understood why a lot of people hate him so much. He's been one of our best players for years. Of course he earns a lot of money etc. But so do all the others.
So let's get off his back and start supporting him.
Anyone who doesn't think he's a great player is not being honest.
{Ed001's Note - seriously? Anyone who thinks he is a great player is biased. He is a good player, but he is a headless chicken, never in the right area to make the best use of his skill set. He causes problems off the pitch, he is too stupid to coach effectively, hence why he has never improved from the young lad who burst onto the scene. Sorry but he would not be rated as anything special if he wasn't English. Oh and don't get me started on his first touch, which more often than not is woeful for a player with his quality of technique, which shows a lazy mind not concentrating properly. Plus his constant desire to whack long balls when that is not the best option and usually ends up turning over possession is frustrating. Rooney could have been great, and the only person to blame for him not being great is him.}
Great post, i agree.
Yes Chris good post. I'm with you on backing him 100%, so long as he continues to give 100%.
I will criticise the management if fitting him into our team moves 2-3 players out of position or we play a weaker formation/players as a result.
After all it isn't his fault, he just wants play as anybody would in his boots.
Agreed Ed 001 - But we supporters need to back him now as he is our captain. I made my views clear about the hype surrounding Rooney no longer being justified further down the page. Some fans refuse to admit he is not that great which is just ludicrous to me - it doesn't hurt us to admit somebody is living off their reputation whilst contributing now and again. Rooney is fortunate to be playing in this generation of English players.
20 Nov 2014 11:03:18
To say he is never in the right place to maximise his skill set is obviously wrong as he will have been in the right spot to score more times than anybody else in the history of Man utd and England. So he is doing something right
He has had some major PR diastors throughout his carreerboth personal and professional, has he maximised his potential. No IMO so that where I begin to get frustrated. But neither did George Best. Love him or loathe him by the end of his playing days he will hold some great records and records that have stood for 50 years or so. Therefore he is a whole lot better than average even Liverpool supports might have to admit that.
Im not his biggest fan by any stretch of the imagination but he gets my respect and support for his efforts and acheivements to date.
He is an England and Manchester United Legend and rightly so.
He would not make my personal top ten favourite united players of all time but the citeria each person uses to decide that will be different it would be hard to argue against him being in anybody elses list
20 Nov 2014 11:20:04
Good post and I agree. I've always understood both sides of the argument but I think now is the right time for everyone to get behind him. Tbf every time I've been to the stadium he's the player who got the most attention from the crowd so its not been much of an issue with the match going supporters.
20 Nov 2014 10:00:11
Ed001,
Imagine how many goals he would have scored and records he would be set to break if he didn't have a lazy mind, was ever in the correct position, had any quality of technique, wasn't a headless chicken and didn't just whack long balls all day.
I appreciate you are impossible to argue with because your opinion is always correct and unbiased, but I think there are a lot of people who are unbiased who think that Rooney is a great player.
Like Chris said, Rooney has not become the player we all hoped he would, but there a lot of 'wonderkids' who become absolutely nothing at all and end up playing in the conference or working in KFC, this 'wonderkid' is going to be the record goalscorer for Manchester United and England, a record held by Sir Bobby Charlton, so I don't think he has done too badly, even if he has not become the best player in the world like some hoped when we signed him.
{Ed001's Note - breaking records for an England team that plays many more games than they used to is meaningless.}
20 Nov 2014 10:53:39
Not once have I seen the amount of money he earns, used as an excuse to criticise him. Unfortunately, its the going rate. What he has or hasn't done, while earning that money, is where people have had issues with him over the years.
20 Nov 2014 12:43:07
They could be short lived records if Wilson develops to his potential
Ridiculous Argument.
Playing football for a coference team requires you to be a pretty decent football player. Playing in the premiership is another level altogether.
Then when you play for top sides and for your country you are upping the level needed again.
Then to be the all time greatest goal scorer for both country and club is on a level only ever achieveable by being a Great/Legend. How anyone can argue that Rooney is not a great player is beyond me. Who are u comparing him too. Messi and Ronaldo? Arguably the greatest two players to ever play. Does that mean that anyone else falls short of being a great player?
20 Nov 2014 14:12:09
Good post, Chris. Pretty much sums up how I feel about him. I'll never like the guy, I'd never have him in a top ten best Utd players of all time, but I tip my hat to him. His achievements haven't happened by accident, so credit where it's due. He's here, he's wearing a red shirt, he's putting in the effort, so whether or not I think he has a poor first touch, poor passing ability and a lack of tactical discipline (its all relative by the way - not saying he's a poor player), then we get behind him. The same goes for the rest of them. And the manager.
20 Nov 2014 13:22:13
Correct. I am pretty sure he has not played as many games for England as the current record holder for goals and when Sir Bobby was playing England were the best team The same can hardly be said about the England team Rooney played in. So the record is hardly meaningless. King Kenny from Liverpool was a great player. Couldn't hold a candle to Ronaldo or Messi but is still a legend and was a great player. I don't suppose he thinks his goal scoring records for Scotland are meaningless.
{Ed001's Note - I don't see the relevance of Dalglish, but Bobby Charlton was a midfielder, so beating his record, while playing as a striker, is not exactly special. It just highlights how poor England are.}
20 Nov 2014 14:04:39
I would suggest that in years to come when people ask who the top goalscorer for England is and people grow up knowing it is Wayne Rooney, the only player to break 50 goals, they will realise he was a top player.
Ed, do you think top England goalscorer should be judged on a goals per game ratio? Records might mean nothing to you, but I grew up learning about Sir Bobby Charlton and knowing he was the England top goalscorer and what a player he must have been, at the time records might be meaningless, but when people look at records, being the top scorer is not meaningless at all.
In your argument it is like saying Charlton's record for United means nothing because he played 600 games so he should have scored as many as he did.
MrE, nothing like putting pressure on a young lad, he will only have to score a goal in a big game and he will suddenly have the same expectation as Mr Rooney had. If he goes on to have half the career I will be delighted for him.
{Ed001's Note - no Charlton was not a striker, so his record is much better by comparison.}
The records he is about to break are because of the stuff he did when he was a great player several years ago, not because he still is a great player.
If you gave Bobby Charlton a game next England match and put him on a penalty, he breaks the record again - is he still a great player? Of course not.
Rooney was great he is now simply good. He is captain because there are no other viable candidates with age and experience, or meeting our own managers policy of English man must be captain. If Rooney was still great there wouldn't have been all the indecision about who would captain club & country (despite no other obvious candidates), he gets it by default. So we can't use this to say he is now great by any stretch in my view.
It all comes down to what people consider great or world class as several people have said. But breaking records means nothing in terms of current ability as its the culmination of earlier exploits.
Why all the Rooney hate okay he is not as as he was but the quality of player as dropped a midfield f Schoels Hargreaves fit and Carrick dosent compare to Bkind Fellani and a 33 year ild Carrick
20 Nov 2014 16:12:13
Beast,
The records he is about to break are because he has consistently been a great player and in continuing to score goals for club and country despite the stick he is getting from all angles about not being as good as he was when he was 18.
Nobody is suggesting Rooney is better than Charlton from what I can see, Charlton's achievement of scoring so many goals as a midfielder will never be beaten no matter how many goals he scores, but to go clear Rooney also has to go ahead of a lot of top class strikers (Greaves, Lineker, Shearer) so he is clearly doing something well.
There is always going to be debate on this and I think some people bring personal feelings into it when discussing Rooney that are pretty pointless, nobody knows the ins and outs of what happened with the transfer request except a few people.
I think what we all should agree on is that he is our captain now, and whatever you think of him, whether he isn't as good as your dad told you he would be 10 years ago or whether you worship the ground he walks on, we should support him, because he is the one going out there desperately trying to drag our club back to where it belongs each and every week.
I would rather be lining up with Rooney in our team than Rooney against us put it that way.
The records he is about to break are because of the stuff he did when he was a great player several years ago, not because he still is a great player.
Beast.
He has played 101 times for england and scored 46 goals .
18 of them goals in the last 27 games,
Infact 8 in the last 13 games.
which would suggest the record he is about to break is very much because of the stuff he is doing now
20 Nov 2014 16:46:49
jred,
I agree (first time for everything ;)), thanks for doing the research on the stats, I love a good stat to prove somebody wrong. I have a feeling Beast will argue if you tell him grass is green today though.
20 Nov 2014 16:49:50
Hes played 6 less games than Bobby and needs 4 goals from the record. Bear in mind 50 years ago there were less teams involved. Look at the number of 'new' countries since the end of communism in Europe. Its more games and more chances to score.
Bobby did great to score that many and Rooney has done great to get close to it catching up to strikers like Linekar, Shearer and Owen, none of which could break it.
But look at other countries leading scorers and its bad we've never had anyone go over 50.
20 Nov 2014 17:48:54
Grass is actually not green gds, just to be pedantic lol.
My point is he wouldn't have been picked as much to play against the fodder based purely on form. The reason he is picked irrespective of his form is because of what he accomplished earlier in his career - therefore he is living off his rep.
He doesn't even play upfront for us and has 3 goals this season - there are many English strikers playing upfront with better figures and performances this season. Taking off my Utd specs.
He is playing against teams that Peter Crouch was prolific against, let's not over egg how great his goals ratio is for England or how hard it is to score against the likes of Andorra and San Marino - our current group is a disgrace and it has been like that for the majority of his England career.
The next 18 year old English wonder kid (hopefully Wilson if Rooney doesn't hold him up) will obliterate whatever record Rooney sets in half the time. Playing upfront, taking free kicks and penalties and playing the teams we play, his figures are nothing to scream about.
I was at Rooneys debut for United when he scored the European hat trick, I also seem to remember being at OT when he scored a goal for England before that. I am with ed01 to an extent. At the beginning it was instinct, the street footballer who just did things without thinking in the circumstances, the volley against Newcastle a good example. Then, centre of attention, things changed, he started to think about his game and for me that's where he went slightly off the track. His concentration and touch started to go awry, over time, not massively but enough to only be effective 70% of the time whilst Ronaldo would be over 90%.
Now he gives easy balls away, looks like he isn't concentrating and I wonder if it is pressure in his own mind. I would rather not have him playing against us because occasionally he would do something like on Tuesday. He has become an England great but not a World great, a United great perhaps but nowhere near Uniteds greatest.
It is a pity because that instinct when younger was brilliant, yet he didn't carry it through. Top player who is fallible but didn't adapt to having to think about the game.
Always gives his all on the pitch when others haven't and perhaps his scoring runs come because he relaxes and does things confidently and instinctively for a period. Perhaps he has a confidence issue and don't dismiss that. The other day Wilson said Rooney was the most impressive in training, perhaps I venture when he he is relaxed and instinctive.
20 Nov 2014 20:49:01
Beast,
You think the next wonder kid will score 50 goals in 50 games (half the time)?
Red man,
Can't disgsree with anything you said there, spot on in my opinion and probably a good assessment of why he scores in bursts.
The next 18 year old English wonder kid (hopefully Wilson if Rooney doesn't hold him up) will obliterate whatever record Rooney sets in half the time
Beast
I think that statement about sums you up .
46 goals in 101 games playing for an average england team .
But the next 18 year old will obliterate that and charltons record in half the time .
You keep going on and on yet different managers keep picking him and making him captain .
Thats right up there with your argument that anybody who had played the amount of games rooney had would have scored that amount of games.
There has been a lot of good points made on both sides of the argument but yours are ridiculous.
On rooney i don't think he ever had the talent of a ronaldo, messi or zidane .
He was great goalscorer and his workrate was always excellent . For me he has turned out to be a top top player and has been for 10 years.
But i think people put an unrealistic expectation on him and then slated him for not reaching it .
He gets compared to ronaldo and messi but them 2 could be the best 2 players to ever live .
A young rooney had the potential to be one of the best players in the world and in my eyes he achieved that.
Im not sure he ever had the potential to be the greatest player that ever lived which is what you are talking about with messi and ronaldo.
He is one of united best players, he is one of englands best players and has been over a 10 year period, to try and argue other wise is a bit daft
I think he will end up record scorer for both club and country and that's some career
I will always get behind the team but rooney has never reached his potential and in my mind is slowly on the decline.yes he's scored lots of goals and had some great games for utd but parts of his game are poor ie his 1st touch is crap.some are saying best didn't achieve his potential but if you saw george play he was world class he did things most other players could only dream of and had more skill and control in his big toe than rooney has in both feet.best also played at a level of performance that was exceptional from an early age and for most of his career and the only potential he could of improved on was goals not performance because he was at the top of his game.
{Ed007's Note - Nobody's talking about ability are they? Thanks for proving my point though. How many YEARS did Best play at
'a level of performance that was exceptional'
considering Utd got shot of him at 27/28 after years of messing them about and walking out etc. And that's when his career basically ended. In 1970–71 (he'd be 24/25?) he was suspended by United for two weeks after missing his train to Stamford Bridge so he could spend a weekend with some daft actress, that's three years before Utd finally had enough of him, so he was 24/25, and you think that's acceptable? At the end of the 71-72 season he announced his FIRST retirement at 25/26, he played the following season and then announced his SECOND retirement and the list goes on and on but as I say nobody's going to say a word against him, history mellows true emotions, look at the outpouring of grief for Thatcher? You can't talk ill of the dead etc, reminisce about the 'good old days' and nobody says 'Remember that wee Jimmy from down the road that died, stupid jakey junkie bam, he got what he deserved, the streets a bit safer now he's dead!' It's all 'That was a shame, he was a decent enough lad, nice family and that but he had his problems and got in with a bad crowd that were into the drugs and that'. It couldn't possibly be wee Jimmy was a wee junkie waster and only got in with the drugs crowd because he was punting to pay for his habit. Try telling someone at a funeral you couldn't stand the guy but your wife/GF/mam said you better show face and see the reaction you get.
In 50 years time very few people will remember any of the 2 of them, who's going to look better in the history books when you break down their career?}e
I will always get behind the team but rooney has never reached his potential and in my mind is slowly on the decline.yes he's scored lots of goals and had some great games for utd but parts of his game are poor ie his 1st touch is crap.some are saying best didn't achieve his potential but if you saw george play he was world class he did things most other players could only dream of and had more skill and control in his big toe than rooney has in both feet.best also played at a level of performance that was exceptional from an early age and for most of his career and the only potential he could of improved on was goals not performance because he was at the top of his game.
20 Nov 2014 18:17:08
Tbh 001 i would say your biased in saying Rooney isn't a great player. All entitled to an opinion but mine is that he has been a great player, the past few seasons not so much. Wouldn't say world class but great? Absolutely. An in form Rooney is up their with the best on his day but unfortunately he peaked long ago. But he will always go down as a United and England great. His best times for United far and wide outweigh his bad times.
That's just my opinion anyway.
{Ed001's Note - I guess a lot depends on what you call great, to be fair.}
21 Nov 2014 10:21:00
Dicitionary definition:
of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above average.
I would say so Ed on all 3 counts.
{Ed001's Note - we will have to agree to differ.}
Best gave more enjoyment to fans in his shortened career than others could give in a lifetime.in 50 years time his statue will still sit outside old trafford, you won't see one of rooney.(hopefully old trafford is still there ) :)
21 Nov 2014 15:41:34
johndenton,
If Rooney stays at united for another 4 or 5 years and breaks the goalscoring record, I imagine you may see one of Rooney to be honest.
Ive seen a picture of the proposed rooney statue gds it reminds me of buddha :)