Manchester United Banter Archive January 20 2015

20 Jan 2015 20:29:09
Not posted for a while but still read the banter every day. I have noticed LVG getting a lot of stick on here recently, and imo a lot of it is uncalled for. First off a lot are saying we are playing boring football, which in quite a few games has been true, but that is surely down to having a weak defence & having to shore it up by playing with 5 at the back, which is half the team. Add to this to playing a very inexperienced CH combination with Blackett & McNair used regular because of Jones, Evans & Smallings constant cock ups & injuries. Rojo looks decent but is still finding his feet. Then we have played midfielders as CH ( Carrick, Blind, Fellaini etc ). I honestly believe with a settled back 4 ( not 5 ) we will see the confidence come back into the whole team. Unbelievably we have actually got a better defensive record than city, so while they score plenty they leave the back four open, we tried this at Leicester & played great for an hour then conceeded 5. Di Maria is just back from injury & will get better, Falcao is getting better & just needs game time before the goals start to fly in. I honestly believe LVG will get it right but is being massively hampered by our ridiculous injury list. Sorry if this is a bit long winded.

Middleton, good to see you back.

The 3 at the back is hacking me off but if he played Carrick as 1 of the 3 I think it would change the whole dynamic and stop the endless sideways passing.

The Leicester game was a freak game, we need to forget it and move on. The sooner we move to 4 at the back (or play Carrick in a 3) the better. LVG needs to grow a pair, we have fantastic attacking talent, let's free it up and go for it.

Thanks AJH, stayed away from posting for a while as i got a bit of abuse last time i posted. I only posted that a friend in Italy said we would sign Vidal if we met Juves valuation & he asked to move. Neither happened so he stayed put. Still think we need a top notch CH and a real dominant CM, we hve plenty of potential flair with Rooney, Di Maria, Mata, Falcao, RVP etc. Just think we need a Hummels/Benatia type of CH to help the likes of McNair gain in confidence. Same in midfield we need a Keane/Toure to boss the game & let the flair players get further upfield & not be worried about covering for our lucklustre midfielders. At least LVG seems to recognise that the likes of Cleverley, Nani, Anderson & sad to say Fletcher are not up to scratch.

Spot on. Our spine is weak, no dominant centre half and no dominant CM. If we fix those 2 the we are up.and running

{Ed004's Note - Hopefully Pogba and Godin}

. and ignore the abuse, at least you are generating debate

20 Jan 2015 22:47:26
I would love Godin ed04, how that bloke didn't get in the team of year ahead of luiz is criminal.

He was really good last season next to Miranda, still only about 27/8 to I think.

I don't think you can blame the poor quality of football (which has been evident in near enough every minute of every game we've played this season rather than 'quite a few', as you say) on our 'weak defense'.

LVG had plenty of money to spend in the summer and yet opted against signing a top CB. He still dropped £45m on defenders, mind, which is more than most clubs spend on their entire back five (Azpilicueta, Terry, Cahill, Ivanovic and Courtois cost Chelski a grand total of £32m, for example).

It's hard to guage the quality of the players signed instead because they're either injured all of the time (Shaw, Rojo, Blind, Di Maria) or LVG seems intent on not playing/annoying them (Falcao and Herrera). The injuries seem to be coming as a result of LVG over-training the players (I notice Luke Shaw was missing again last weekend which seemed to go under the radar). Some of the injuries couldn't have been avoided - but I suspect the majority could.

There's bad luck and then there's bad management. Players getting injured in training every other week makes it very difficult for them to find any kind of form and until the injuries stop and we're able to field the same eleven each week I don't see performances improving.

Many thought that we'd switch back to a back four once all of our defenders came back to fitness; but despite implying that five at the back was a means to cover for the injuries - LVG still seems set on a back five. To me that suggests that either LVG favours dull, boring football with long balls over the top or that he doesn't feel he has the players to play four at the back (see paragraph 2).

A little further down the page somebody made a great point about how LVG will be judged at the end of the season. I expect we'll scrape top four and most will see that as a big success on LVG's part. I, on the other hand, will be calling for his head if we're still playing the same lifeless, boring and trite brand of football that LVG seems intent on imprinting onto the club and players.

LVG is very much a 'my way or the highway' type manager. As it stands, the highway looks a hell of a lot more lively than the banal excuse for football that we're forced to watch on a weekly basis!

20 Jan 2015 18:12:45
Looks like the fishing season has started for players wanting a move. . Axel Witsel has stated he loves premiership and always follows us. Guess he wants out of current club!!

20 Jan 2015 19:02:56
I'd take him. Sort of become one of the forgotten men on here. Really like him. Haven't seen much of him lately, tho, so don't know whether his game has declined or improved since he's been in Russia.

I like him, not sure how he's playing in Russia but on what I've seen of him he would be a perfect fit for the Premier league. Should be under consideration at least.

If we have interest I imagine a deal is possible with the unrest with the club's in Russia.

20 Jan 2015 16:17:22
I am a long time reader of this site but a very rare poster, frankly people here need to calm down.

Many here want LVG sacked none more than beast, beast mate i would really want to know what is your problem with LVG, don't tell us that football played is at times rubbish, because never heard any fans wanting fergie sacked because football was rubbish for best part of last 4-5 years under fergie.

I have heard many fans here and on other sites wanting league title challenge because we spent 150 mn this summer.
But what most don't seem to acknowledge is LVG or moyes won't have had to spend 200 mn upto now and lot more in future if fergie did a better job in his last years.

I know this may seem harsh to many people, but let's look at the team he left us:

A gk who had potential to be worldclass and a decent backup for that position.

A right back with some sort of aversion to staying fit for more that 3 matches in a row, backups included 2 injury prone cb's and a winger

Of the 5 cb's he left us 2 were pensioners who should have been replaced 2-3 years ago and who at their current clubs have proven moyes and LVG that they were correct in not retaining them. Of the other three, 2 share the aversion of staying fit with our rb and have been played as full backs and central midfielders more than cb great way of developing them as cb's i suppose, and The last one who is currently our most experienced defender seems to suffer from anxiety attacks when he needs to defend.

A left back who thought defending wasn't suppose to be a part of his job description and a backup who wasn't good enough for a top half club let alone champions.

We had effectively 1 natural cm who still is our best mf but is a good player at best not world class, the others 2 were sorry excuses for footballers with one more adept at being a KFC advertisement board than footballer with the other one currently playing for a relegation threatened side. Backups included a striker a no 10 a rb when needed and retired midfielders if u count them.

For wingers we had 3 guys whose crossing skills are on par with that of my grandmother, with 2 of them seeming to think that hitting 1st defender the ball is supposed to go past when crossing as some sort of a target that they must hit and the third had particular liking for over hitting crosses.

For forwards we had a no 10 who every manager he played under wanted him to be a left winger for some reason, a pissed off striker who has lost pace and wanted to leave thanks to fergie, a striker 30 year old striker with some sort of little boy syndrome ( i don't blame fergie for this) which meant the minute things don't work out he either throws his toys around and leaves or pretends to be injured and an honorable mention to a young striker who left because he wasn't used as one, not that he knows much about finishing any way.

So that means we had a gk, two strikers and a mf what could and should make it to any team winning titles, that folks is 4 players ( the last i heard football was played with 11) many of the rest were not good enough to be squad members let alone starting games.

Now i know many will say fergie won epl with that team, how he won it i do not know though i feel that he should be given the Nobel prize for that i mean how many of you think that sort of a team can win the league again.

Now i don't say everything is fergie's fault, moyes wanted to play defensive football with crosses in the box with above mentioned wingers and strikers none of whom were what u can call tall and van gaal seems obsessed with 3 at back when every time it is tried it seems not to work.

Now many around here want him sacked because he supposedly has fallen out with one of his best players, isn't playing beautiful football, is adamant about not changing his ways, now when u consider especially the last few years under fergie don't sound so different do they, no one one wanted SAF sacked.

SAF's objectives were win the league and compete for UCL, LVG's are get back into UCL, SAF achieved his most of the time and currently LVG seems to be achieving his.

So question remains why do you guys want him sacked?

To be fair I think a lot on here wanted fergie to retire a season or 2 earlier, he was making mistakes that was starting to effect the squad (sounds similar).
I'm not calling for LVG's head this early into the campaign, everybody deserves a little time to get it right but I truly don't think he's the right man for the job, he's stubburn and that's obvious, he knows his 3-5-2 system is not working but he's to proud to admit that.
If any manager for any club/company put his way before what's the best for the club/company he would be gone very quick.
I ain't buying into his philosophy.

Common_Sense Moyes - Good Post by the way and I agree with a lot of your assessments. However the answer is simple, LVG is not the man to correct this, he will make matters worse.

I actually did want SAF to move on as the quality was degrading and his acquisitions and development of young players was no longer what it was - his methods were dated, his time came and he persisted as most people do. Hence my problem with LVG, his methods are dated and he is a an all round bad guy to have calling the shots in my view.

One major difference is that SAF built up trust and credit with us fans over 2 decades, what right does the new manager have to assume the same respect? He simply doesn't, it is earned and frankly he is going the wrong way about earning it for a lot of people.

The major issue here is patience/time, the longer the football stays poor, the more LVG ignores style, the more he digs his heels in the more people will jump on the band wagon. Everybody has a moment where they realise enough is enough, with LVG my time came earlier than a lot of people. With Moyes mine was later than a lot of people, it varies and everybody is different.

For me, LVG is not making the right decisions, he is wasting important time and money, but most importantly he will not change even if facing the barrel of a gun, who would at his age and with his ego?

So ultimately it was a bad call hiring him for me. But people want to give him rope and that is fair enough.

He plays 352 becuase he doesn't trust or defence to have 4 plus the fact we don't have a rb, raf is always injured and he's our only rb.

he said himself we play better with 4 at the back but we also get exposed far to easy.

i think until we get a partner for rojo we will still play 3 5 2

Spb
"he doesn't trust our defence"
Is that only in the first half then? why change it in the second if he does'nt trust it? This is part of what's not right with him, even he can't figure it out.

He has us playing the most boring football I've ever seen us play week in week out. Perhaps if we were top of the table or hadn't spent £200m+ in the past 18 months that wouldn't be quite so bad. Personally, I'd still be disappointed. We've actually managed to get worse than we were last season. Enough is enough. I doubt we'll get rid of him yet as he will probably have a clause in his deal that allows us to get rid of him on the cheap if he fails to make top 4; but I hope he scrapes 4th and then Ancellotti, Klopp or Simeone takes over in the summer.

20 Jan 2015 18:19:19
Herbie Beast i don't say you have to buy everything LVG says or does nor do you have too buy in to his philoosophy but what i tried to say in the earlier post is Moyes earlier and LVG now have handicaps attached to them,

We have a defense of Smalling who is at best an average defender same goes for jones coupled with evans who has regressed to a level of a championship footballer. A right back who never stays fit, on top of that an average midfield an attacked that does not have any pace.

He tried to correct as many of the faults as possible, you cannot do it all in one window, and add to that no CL means attracting top players gets a bit more difficult.

I don't say 3-5-2 will wok or his handling of herrera and falcao is great, but we must not discount that we a currently 4th 2 points off 3rd with set of winnable fixtures and but for some sort of crazy end to this season we will be in CL next season, if it does not happen LVG should be sacked.

beast u say he has not earned it but it is not earned in 6 months or 9 months or even a season, it takes time and if u don't trust him fair enough but then he hasn't done anything that bad for u to slag him off at every opportunity. He is the guy who recently got a rubbish Netherlands team with what effectively was 1 world class player ( I don't count RVP as WC anymore) with mostly average players around him to 3rd place in World Cup (i mention this as few fans don't seem to count trophies won earlier in his career as it was long time ago according to them) that feat my friend coupled with his CV deserves respect if not trust and he his not even a long term solution as he is here only to steady the ship.

I would say he has gone about it ok enough trying long term rather than stop gap for a change.

Interesting post but what does that say about each managers managerial ability. I guess fergie could win win a bunch of limp d. ks according to your assessment and our new manager can't even figure out how to get the bets out of a 60 million purchase.

Please enlighten me with a reply as to how he has shown any resemblance of progress with what we have and if anything looks to be continuing with something that is a farce of a system.

I don't want him sacked but he will never win against the likes of Mourinho and pellegrini because whilst they look at defending their teams playing attacking football. This guy is the most negative manager we have had including the last one.

His reputation is shielding him fro being lynched because so far this is worse by a country mile than fergies worst teams and the football is not even comparable.

Look up the stats mate when you make statements like the above as a boring and worst game under fergie we still had a dozen goal chances and shots and he went for the win, LVG is scared to lose and that is his whole philosophy of how he sets up a team.

With this squad Fergie would be challenging for the league I am sure of that.

"We've actually managed to get worse than we were last season"

Holloway's Millwall (and they are cr.p) are better to watch than the utter dross I witnessed last season.

I can't in any way shape or form understand how things are worse than last season. Granted, we're not great to watch at present, but the team is much better organised and motivated. Plus, we have, at times, played some top stuff this season.

Last season should be scrubbed from the annals of United's history. It was that bad.

Maybe the Ed's should do a poll on the subject: Are LVG's Man Utd worse than Moyes'. Just watch out for Beast making multiple accounts. ;o)

20 Jan 2015 18:59:17
Csm, some good points (especially the 2nd post). I tend to agree that we must be patient and I will judge him nearer the summer. I understand the points made by the negative posters and tbh The one thing I want to see from LvG in the next 5 games against lower end opposition is more chances created and more attacking dominance. So long as we see glimpses of that alongside a 3rd/4th place finish I will be happy to give him the summer and next season to see if he can push us on.

Sam
I honestly don't know if we are better or worse so far than last year.
This time last year we were 7th with 37 points 36 goals scored, 27 against .
This year we are 4th with 40 points, 36 scored and only 21 against.
Neither team played great football and i don't think there is a massive amount between them.
I think with the big spend and players like di maria, falcao even mata and co there's more excitement about the squad and i can't wait to see the team sheet, i'm not sure the football is much better than last year .
And it was pretty bad last year

"worse than last year" "no progress"

I note that the fundamental basics most experts agree on is to tighten up at the back, make you hard to beat. Here we are with a goals against column better than the reigning champions and that is with a defence that has changed too often with a need to buy a commanding defender. Oh and whilst we are talking about the reigning Champions (awful to refer to that lot in that way) let's remember we actually beat QPR at QPR on Saturday, something they couldn't do.

We are fourth, unlike last season we don't aspire to be like City, but in some people's jaundiced eyes there is no progress. We should see what the end of season looks like and reflect then.

Hb
The thing is we could continue to play like we are get for example 70 points and finish 4th and most people would say lvg has done well.

Or we could continue to play like we are get 70 points but finish 6th because arsenal and spurs have played really well and people would think lvg has had a bad season.

In a way peoples judgement would be based on how other teams are playing.

for me if we finished 4th but still hadn't seen any improvement in performances or tactics i would question if lvg was the right for the job next season.
however if we suddenly found a bit of form played some good stuff but finished 5 behind say arsenal who had also played some good stuff i would be more than happy for him to continue

I love it how people say we are much better motivated than last season. Where is the evidence for this? I heard a fact the other day that we have won a ridiculously low amount of games this season from going one goal down, lower than last season!

So LVG motivating players to fight for the team is wrong when comparing him positively to Moyse.

People will just believe what they want to. But this season is worse than last season football wise, it is the least entertaining unproductive football I have ever seen us produce, but I have been watching (knowing what is happening) from 1990, so didn't see the bleak times. Hard to imagine the football was worse then though, at least we would have attacked teams.

Gav

I agree with your post and in the same boat and will wait and see. I am very concerned we will not finish in the placings as this guy is very negative and too stubborn to change.

Our tougher fixtures are all yet to come and I don't know what his grand plan is because so far there seems to be the 40 meter ball over the top in a 352.

Away to Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton, West Ham are for me all banana skins and potential losses and then City, Arsenal and Spurs at home also do not give me any confidence with this managers approach.

That is 7 of 16 remaining games and needless to say we struggle on almost every other away game against pretty much anyone in the league.

I can honestly say I have never been this unsure of a United team winning against any opponent even at home.

I will wait and see how we go against West Ham and either crystallise my view of this guy if we lose or hopefully have more faith in him with a win.

20 Jan 2015 19:46:02
Jred, good response that's an interesting point of view, can't disagree too much. It's a fine line between what the likes of you and me will perceive as success but there is a line and as you say, people will judge differently. For me, I only expect to see glimpses of the good performances this yr (due to unbalanced squad) and see results as more important. Whereas perhaps you are just in the other direction, fine lines and opinions which make this site interesting.

20 Jan 2015 19:51:57
Sharham, fair points.

I'm not as confident of top 4 as I would like to see. My worry is not our dropped points, more that arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool seem to be finding their feet albeit slowly. Still think we should get too 4 and if not LvG may be in trouble.

One point I would make about the rest of your post is, we have actually performed better against some of the top teams so hopefully we can get a few draws and maybe the odd win in those games, let's see. I'm almost less confident against the lower end teams as we seem to sit right off, I am interested to see how we approach the next 5 games against some of these teams.

Beast, the team capitulated so many times last season to inferior opposition. There was little to no fight; and the team were demoralised by the end of it. This season, we have - even though we have played poorly - won games through grit and determination. That wasn't the case last season. That alone shows not only progression, but better management in general.

At the end of the day, I want and fully expect the manager to succeed. I wanted Moyes' to exceed, but knew from the off that he wouldn't.

20 Jan 2015 14:15:02
In response to matasbeard

Over the last 16 year lvg has won
The dutch league once
The German league once
The German cup once .
He won the majority of his cups at ajax and barcelona over 16 year ago, his CL win was 20 year ago.
The game has changed a lot since then.
Im undecided about his CV i'm not really sure he has been that good over the last 10 year, i wasn't all that impressed with his munich team

I think that it's obvious that van Gaal is an accomplished manager. Regardless of where and when his success came, he has won far more than the vast majority of his peers. It's also obvious that van Gaal is a clever and tactically astute man. He is also stubborn and egotistical, but these are often necessary attributes for top managers once they are tempered with a good dose of pragmatism.

The issues with van Gaal are that he does not always suit every club or every league, and that his ego can often get the better of him. He has never managed in the EPL, and we all know that it requires a different approach to football than other European leagues. Van Gaal should be looking to learn and adapt to the demands of this league rather than pigheadedly thinking that his way will definitely work. In addition, we saw his ego sour his time at Bayern. It's different here so far because he hasn't had any public spats (yet), but it's obvious that he is sticking to his formation because he wants to prove a point (i.e. van Gaal knows best).

The pragmatic approach would be to stop flogging the dead horse and accept what every other pundit and fan has noticed about the current approach: it's too slow, doesn't yield enough chances, doesn't incorporate our best players in the most effective way, and simply doesn't work. The problem is that van Gaal is still riding high over Holland's success with this formation during the summer. His side were supposed to struggle to get out of their group, but because of his tactical innovations they thumped the World Champions and finished third overall. Van Gaal, like Jose, thrives on personal adulation and is, therefore, reluctant to admit that he hasn't devised a new wonder system. All the stats and watching any of our games lays it bare: we perform better with four at the back. Despite van Gaal's success and clear talent as a manager he won't accept this because he will not see his system go down as a failure.

It is too soon to say whether he fits our club or not. He has acting well to the press and not being controversial or bringing disrepute to the club. But above all, the players are playing for him and not giving in like they did under Moyes. If he changes his tactics slightly and gets us playing with four at the back then the speed of our play will speed up and he will be seen as a great fit.

Cant argue with that Danny, absolutely bang on.

20 Jan 2015 16:51:27
The game left him behind so quick that he made the CL final not so long ago only being beaten by mours inter Milan.

Goodoints Jred and Danny. I'm undecided, it may be his time has past and he's had his day.

20 Jan 2015 19:07:31
Am I right in thinking that of those 16 years, 4 were spent as manger of Holland and one as technical director of Ajax? Just semantics perhaps but over 11 years it's not such a bad picture maybe.

Some valid points made on LvG above about not adapting etc. but personally will allow a little more time to judge whether he is suited to United and the epl.

I want to see 2 things from LvG between now and summer
1. Better performances in next 5 games plus glimpses thereafter that our attacking fluidity is improving (regardless of formations etc.)
2. 3rd/4th place finish

Those are the parameters I will be judging him by at the end of the season.

Hb
He was at ajax for 6 months .
2 years with the dutch team when they didn't qualify for the WC
2 years with the dutch during the last world cup
And the rest with barcelona, munich and az.

20 Jan 2015 19:57:06
So that's 5 seasons where you would hardly expect him to win a trophy.
Not qualifying with Holland must be seen as a black mark though obviously.

20 Jan 2015 10:02:00
If I was a betting man I would put money on Otamendi being a United player by the end of the window.

The reasoning behind this, well Valencia have gone public stating a bid has been made and rejected but refuse to name the club.

Now we prefer to do our deals out of the spot light, so I think Valencia are open to selling Otamendi but are trying to get more money. They have said a bid has been made to entice other interested parties to bid but have refused to name us a the team who have bid knowing that if they did it could make us move on to another target.

It looks like a little game in unfolding atm, hopefully we win it.

If Valencia really didn't want to sell they would name us as the bidders knowing it would likely put us off.

This feels like posturing to get the best deal from us.

So the question is would Otamendi be a good signing?

{Ed002's Note - It is not a case of attracting other interested parties. It is a case of them wishing to keep the player unless a bid of a specific value is made.}

I do agree that we will probably see him at Old Trafford in the next 10 days but I don't think he is worth spending over €40 million on. But I guess if that's what it takes to get a sold center back pairing of Rojo and Otamendi so that we can move away from the 3 at the back then I would gladly see it happen. Those two along with De Gea should have good comm's and understanding I would think.

And Shappy, I would suggest that you know more than me about whether he would be a good signing or not! Have you watched him much?

My only concern being, is Otamendi not usually used as an left sided centre half rather than right sided? The same as Rojo.

Shappy, from my limited knowledge of Otamendi I think he is a good player in the mould of a Vidic (intelligent and puts body on the line). I think for the right money he would be a good addition. As with all CB's he will need the right player to partner him. or players if we stick with 3 at the back.
On whether he comes in this Jan. one question i have is how much control the 3rd party (i believe it is the same one involved with Rojo) have, would they be dictating or would Valencia?

20 Jan 2015 13:08:19
I wanted to know what everyone else thought of him before giving my opinion, I didn't want what I had to say on him possibly sway peoples opinions.

I've seen him play 8/10 times over the last couple of years, mostly for Porto though and about 4 times for Valencia. He looks very soild, a good passer, great in the air and in the tackle but his reading of the game is what has impressed me most, he nips in and cuts the danger out at source rather than with last minute interventions. He always seems calm and composed. He also has that Argentine hard man edge to him when he needs it.

I think he would be an excellent signing, and in my own opinion more suited to the Premier league than Mats Hummels. How much is he worth? Well that depends on the market and how much we are prepared to sign him. He would be in instant upgrade on all our defenders and could be someone you could build around from the back. I wouldn't worry about spending 35m sterling on him if need be, it might be too much, but that is the going rate atm.

Laporte Otamendi Verane Pique are all likely targets and are available if we make the right offer. What I don't understand, is why wait to the end of the transfer window to buy them when we need them now and we have games in January that they could have played in.

Shappy, is he particularly mobile? If he is then he and Rojo together would make a very quick centre back pairing.

20 Jan 2015 13:39:34
Varane would be the dream but i'd take otamendi and laporte. Move Evans and one other on.

Evans for me has to go, I get so nervous when I see his name on the team sheet. I have more trust in Blackett and McNair.

First choice pairing of Rojo and Otamendi with Smalling, Jones, Blackett and McNair back up is strong.

NoMidfield, I wouldn't take Pique, very over rated imo. Besides with Barca's ban I doubt they would consider letting any players go, let alone one in a position they are weak in.

Fresh, he very mobile, quick without being rapid but his clever reading means he is nearly always in the right place at the right time. He also pops in the odd goal at corners and free kicks. Which would be a bonus as I don't feel we score enough from set pieces.

MrE, Varane is a quality player but it may well be a pipe dream. But maybe Otamendi's experience might be of more value to us than Varane's pure talent.

He also plays or has played as a right back

If Varane ever leaves Madrid then Mourinho will be stood at the exit with the doors of his Rolls Royce open ready to take him to Stamford Bridge. He would also be parked so close to the exit door that LVG couldn't get his car in between the door and Mourinho. Even if he did, Mourinho would probably make sure LVG gets a flat tyre on the way to Manchester so that he gets his man in the end anyway. No chance of Varane, every chance of Otamendi.

20 Jan 2015 14:15:23
Fresh, catch yourself on, mate. More trust in Blackett and McNair?

One poorish period in the last few seasons, and suddenly Evans has gone from being one of our best defenders, to the new Darren Gibson when it comes to getting slated on here.

To the point where we want to put inexperienced kids in ahead of him?

Even if we do get new defenders in, I'd still have him as an experienced squad player.

If people actually watched the guy play, rather than rely on their pre-conceived notions of him, or blindly repeat the current prevailing view on him on sites like this, then they might see he's not quite the, 'accident waiting to happen', that they seem to think he is.

20 Jan 2015 14:17:10
To answer the OP, I do rate Otamendi. Argentinian defenders are usually hard as nails, and he's cut from the same cloth. I was hoping we'd go in for him before he went to Valencia.

He is a constant source of error and he is not good enough for a team such as ourselves. A move to a team like Everton may be a better one for him where he would be a star name rather than an average player.

20 Jan 2015 15:13:49
Again with the hyperbole, mate. 'Constant source of error'. If that was the case, he wouldn't be near a Sunday league team, never mind one in the Premiership. One or two mistakes, which everyone makes, doesn't make him a bad player.

He's having a relative form slump at the minute, but people have very short memories. Best defender in the last couple of seasons, and we turn on him quicker than a pack of hyenas.

How has he been the best defender? Please list what his attributes are?

He is not that great in the air, he is not particularly quick and his distribution is suspect.

20 Jan 2015 16:40:43
Fresh, I don't know if you've been watching the last couple of seasons, but even with Rio and Vidic here, it was common consensus he's been the best. Now one bad start to an injury-plagued season, with a new system, and he's crap?

He's a better passer and reader of the game than Jones and Smalling for a start. Just because he doesn't run around like a headless chicken, doesn't mean he's not a capable defender.

20 Jan 2015 18:21:29
While Evans was at one point (when others were on a bad run of form) our best CB he's been at the club a long time and has hardly progressed to the level needed, in fact I think this season is the worst he's ever been and quite frankly some of the mistakes he makes, and the frequency of them is just embarrassing. He needs to go to another team for his sake, let alone ours.

20 Jan 2015 19:21:15
I think some of us have selective memories. Granted, he has made a couple of glaring mistakes this season, but I think because they were so obvious, people have got it into their heads he's been doing it every game, and everyone just repeats the mantra, 'accident waiting to happen', and people accept it as gospel.

I've seen Jones and Smalling (City game anyone?) make just as many, if not more mistakes, but very few are calling for them to be sold to a 'lesser team'. All our defenders have struggled with injuries, different personnel and adapting to a new system, so I don't expect any of them to be at their best so far - a good, solid defence needs a run of games together above all else.

Watch our games again - The Daily Fail even gave Evans a 7 in his last match. The Fail NEVER give Evans a 7, it's always a 5 or 6, even when he's had a really good game. You'll see these so-called 'numerous' and 'frequent' mistakes, are nowhere near as numerous and frequent as you might think.

I'm not saying he's a sure-fire starter, but I do feel, especially with (hopefully) more games next season, that a strong squad is needed, and he should remain a squad member. Still only 27 - not even in his prime, yet.

Hi ed, do you know if there will be a follow up bid?

{Ed002's Note - Not at the price being asked.}

Thanks ed

All our CB's would be twice the player with a leader next to them. Those little mistakes they seem to make will be almost nullified if they have experience next to them. I don't understand why this wasn't addressed pre-season.

Beast

You do realise that players of an appropriate quality, better than what we have, need to be available to buy, don't you?

20 Jan 2015 07:20:18
Here's nine reasons why we should show our full support and respect to LVG and give him to the end of the season before judging him.

1) Champions league title winner.
2) UEFA cup winner.
3) Dual UEFA super cup winner.
4) Quadruple Eredivisie title winner.
5) KNVB cup winner.
6) Dual La Liga title winner.
7) Copa del Rey winner.
8) Bundasliga title winner.
9) DFB Pokal winner

May aswell throw in he was a runner up in another 2 Champions league finals and he took out 3rd place in last years World Cup among other achievements.

Who can really argue with this success? In my opinion this is the trophy cabinet of a winner with great footballing intellect. The guys record speaks for itself. The least he deserves is time.

I agree with you. LVG is being cautious due to our erratic defence. Damage limitation. He's sacrificied all out attack for a methodical possession keeping tactics. He may have spent £150 million but it was long overdue and due to a lack of quality players available at the club we are still short and making up for our short falls. We're probably 3-4 players away from having a complete squad.

Yes it would be nice to see a free flowing high tempo performance week in week out but we simply don't have a defence that would allow us to do that

20 Jan 2015 10:03:44
Yet but beast thinks differently, so I say get him out ;) all that means nothing when we have not qualified for CL before feb.

I could win the league managing Bayern.
Barcelona or Real for La Liga - hardly a great success
Dutch football is sub-par
Same CL success as Roberto Di Matteo in a very long career managing top clubs
Who cares about UEFA Super Cup?
Who cares about Copa del Rey?

Did you watch the Dutch during the World Cup, awful to watch and jammy as hell, kind of like us at the minute?

The deck is stacked massively in his favour and he still is doing his best to mess it up. Here's 9 reasons why we should sack him:

1. No progresss still
2. We are boring to watch, not learning from mistakes
3. He is not using the wealth of talent how he should be
4. He authorised multi-million pound signings that he doesn't rate
5. He has a track record of leaving clubs in the lurch or being sacked
6. He has one good season then it collapses
7. World Class players typically fall out with him, starting already
8. He cares more about his legacy than Man Utd
9. He is an egotistical maniac that I can't wait to see put in his place by fans, media and players once the power men come to their senses

Bonus one - I am not wrong!

20 Jan 2015 10:48:59
I agree with pretty much all of what Mad Hatter says, but I do think there is room for more attacking than we are playing and we could still be winning games. Against Leicester and Burnley at home we should be able to be more expansive and creating plenty of chances to beat them by more than the odd goal, so hopefully we will see this.

People's expectations are way too high and apparently it is because 'we are Manchester United so we should be winning the league and never accepting anything less' but it doesn't really work like that. I do appreciate the people thinking LVG is making mistakes but I talk to a lot of people about the games and everyone has a different opinion and would have done something different, so he is never going to please everybody.

I said in September I will not overreact to a win or a defeat this season and see where we end up, there will be terrible games and there will be good games, we are at the moment in line for Champions League next season, you can bring all the 'but what if we lose our next 5 games and Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham and Southampton win all of there's, we will then be 7th and the world will end' scenarios into it, but at the moment we are in the top 4 with a few decent fixtures to come, so yes there is room for improvement, maybe more than some would have expected, but LVG is by no means doing a bad job, just not an amazing one.

I think most people have a similar opinion but just choose to air it in different ways, then there are the 5% either way who think he is doing amazingly or think he should be fired, but they are the minority.

20 Jan 2015 10:55:04
Beast,

Your lack of ability to even think that you may be wrong makes you come across as a little pig headed. I do enjoy your posts as I have said many times, and you do back it up with your opinions, but you are starting to state these opinions as facts and that's when it becomes very difficult to actually take on board what you are saying.

At least 7 out of 9 of your list are your opinion that you have no proof of.

Who cares about Copa Del Ray? I would imagine the fact last years final was between the 2 teams that have won it the most, Real Madrid and Barcelona that a lot of people care about it.

To everyone who agrees with the Beast's ideology this is what he has effectively just said :

1) Winning the Bundesliga is no achievement.
2) Winning La Liga - one of the top three leagues in the world - doesn't merit success.
3) Winning the Dutch championship several times is irrelevant in world football.
4) Winning the champions league once in a managerial career is not good enough for a coach.
5) The UEFA super cup isn't worth watching never mind winning.
6) The Copa Del Rey (Spanish FA cup) competition is the equivalent of preseason friendlies.
7) Finishing in third place out of thirty-two teams behind arguably the best two international teams in the world requires no skill. It is just 'jammy'.
8) Years of achievements count for nothing if you can't produce world beating performances while getting results when you have been in a job - in a new country and environment - for six months.

I have never seen a more immature, closed minded, ridiculous and unjustified post ever on this site. You are living in a fantasy world.

WOW.

If Beast wants to look for egotistical people at OT, then we had one in charge for over quarter of a century. Where were all the dissenters from on here for SAF between 1986 and 1990? Were they born or even watching back then? We knew we needed a rebuild so despite being far more frustrated than now by some distance, especially as Liverpool were winning, we knew we had to give SAF more time and the same goes with lvg.
Some of the same people who demanded more time for last seasons manager are calling for LvG's head. Less time than someone who didn't have the CV to back him up. The difference is probably partly the emotional SAF outburst to support the new manager.
I shouted 442 at SAF those years ago and I would shout it again but I won't be booing or calling for LvGs head. He needs and deserves more time based on his experience. For me the ones who are making the most noise now don't appreciate what bad really looks like

GDS2 - Why would I post something if I think I could be wrong?

This is all about opinions, but the points I make are very reasonable for an objective supporter, I don't bang on about his training, etc for example in my post as I am not in the know, just his decision making is questionable and most of them are acknowledged facts.

20 Jan 2015 13:23:29
I think having jones taking corners is progress. At least it gets him out of the box and cuts the risk of him injuring himself charging at the ball.

Agree with the original post. Beast, you're talking about us spending the money and we should turn into CL winners overnight. Madrid built for years to get where they are, Chelsea have been rebuilding for 4 seasons and are now ready to challenge.
LVG has come into a team devoid of ideas, confidence. A club that needs a major overhaul. He then bought six players, 5 of whom are foreign and you expected them just to come in and play at the top of their game? To add to all that, most of the time, a lot of the players were injured, and it is not until the last few games that we've had people coming back from injury and getting match fitness.
I think it shows a lack of understanding when you're expecting miracles to happen in 4 months of football.
LVG is a stubborn so and so, and he has made mistakes, but we are in the mix for CL spot and we must give him time to get it right. If in 18 months time, we are still challenging West Ham for 6th place, then you have my full backing to ask for his head on a plate!

20 Jan 2015 13:14:42
Beast , you are doing yourself no favours mate. We all know you don't like LvG , but your constant crusade against him just comes across as a personal vendetta. You do of course have some very valid concerns ,but the way in which you manipulate and twist every post dos not help your cause. Nor does it help endear you to other posters.
Your posts , your opinions. Fair enough. But to be credible , you need to be a little more balanced with your views. The above post is a good example of your obvious bias , and I can completely understand the responses to it , such as that from Juanmatasbeard.
Look at your response again , and with the exception of points 5 and 6 , all of those points could be said about SAF in recent years , and he didn't do a bad job , did he?

JMB - I think he has underachieved considering the time he has had in the game and the clubs/players he has managed, I would have thought somebody of his hype would have done much more.

It does help with getting a job for sure, but what he has done here and at many of his previous clubs is consistently underperform (overall) and cause mayhem.

Why am I immature for disagreeing with your view, its ironic how the few people that resort to name calling are actually guilty of their own accusations? It is possible to have different views and not be a child, thick or deranged you know!

The facts are anybody with half a brain can twist things for their own argument, but in my opinion he is not the right man for the job as our performances are clearly showing. Your one point disguised as 9, was quashed by my 9 points in 30 seconds of thought. My list can go on, all the LVG lovers have only his trophy cabinet to rest on for their arguments, (his sketchy CV) and frankly it should be twice as big, they also see the trophies but don't see the carnage he left behind in getting them, or all the empty spaces, which he doesn't look like filling.

Most people are selfish, I just don't like the fact that people are ignoring this about LVG. He would sacrifice our club for the slightest chance to prove his theory on football is correct - we are the petri dish for a mad scientist! We should get out before its too late.

Beast carry on mate it is your opinion this is a banter site and would be boring if everybody kept saying lvg is great we should look again after three windows or at the end of the season no top four he will be gone but carry on mate do not always agree but you make some valid points

Betty - I am responding to the original post, which I disagree with in terms of the point he is making.

Obviously I don't want to annoy my fellow Utd fans.

I think SAF should have gone in 2009, I was saying as much even when we won the last title, I am not applying double standards - just remaining true to my views, whilst other people try to delude themselves and in turn sway fence sitters that LVG is the right man.

I'll hold off for a bit as I can see its unpopular, but read the OP again it simply lists his CV, which we have talked about hundreds of times before, so me outlining my concerns which I have done many times before is no different, especially as I didn't initiate the debate!

20 Jan 2015 13:40:29
Nomid,

Spot on mate, agree 100%.

Beast,

I understand why you post your opinion, but to tell us all you are not wrong is just pig headed, its never crossed your mind that you might actually be wrong despite nobody agreeing with you.

Nice one Daz.

20 Jan 2015 13:59:42
To be honest, I'm half and half on this one. I do believe LvG should be given the time and support to build 'his' team, and they key being he's not going to build his team in 1 or even 2 transfer windows. . it takes a bit of time. It's for this reason why I supported Moyes, and still feel he wasn't given the chance he perhaps deserved.

However, on some level I can see what Beast is trying to say and can understand why he's worried. It's clear the LvG has a massive ego, and that he has a history for upsetting players. I just hope he's able to reign it in and the let the better parts of his personality/attributes come through.

In essence, I honestly think it's 50/50 as to how LvG will work out at United. He could become a great United manager, and potentially be labelled as the man who proved there's life after Sir Alex. . However on the same coin toss, he could implode and walk out tomorrow stating that he can't work with the players and board.

WF Red Devil

GDS2 - What is so wrong about my 9 points?

1. No progress still (we all have eyes)
2. We are boring to watch, not learning from mistakes (acknowledged by almost everyone)
3. He is not using the wealth of talent how he should be (ADM, Rooney, Falcao, Herrera)
4. He authorised multi-million pound signings that he doesn't rate (Herrera, Shaw)
5. He has a track record of leaving clubs in the lurch or being sacked (look at his record)
6. He has one good season then it collapses (as above)
7. World Class players typically fall out with him, starting already (as above and we are seeing with Falcao now)
8. He cares more about his legacy than Man Utd (Debateable, but just listen to him)
9. He is an egotistical maniac that I can't wait to see put in his place by fans, media and players once the power men come to their senses (my own personal view, so I can't be wrong on that, people can disagree of course, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong for thinking it)

20 Jan 2015 14:15:32
WFRD,

I pretty much agree with that, if somebody came on here arguing that LVG is the best thing ever and has done an amazing job I would disagree with them also, but nobody has done that as far as I can see?

There is a middle ground that I think most people sit in where they are happy to wait and see for now, because there are some good things and some bad and it could go either way, and 5 months is not enough time to tell which way it will go.

I am prepared to admit that there is a chance I could be made to look very foolish with how I have behaved surrounding LVG. However when you look at all the history of LVG, the way we are performing, the issues that are starting to be addressed publicly, then the odds are more in favour of me being correct with my observations (in my humble view).

When I initially started spouting off, there was a much higher chance I could have been wrong as he had no real time to make adjustments (I just smelled a rat), but he has had some now and I still see no progress. I'm all for giving people time, but only if they learn.

If you asked an independent bookmaker to put odds on it, then I think disaster would trump triumph, but this is one bet I would happily lose.

I appreciate there is a very large grey area here for a lot of supporters - but I think it is important to counter LVG championing like the OP did, to ask people to read about him and watch our performances - that should be argument enough rather than blind faith or misguided statistics that paint one very simplistic picture to a very complex situation.

Granted time will reveal all in the end, but half the fun is speculating and using tangible evidence to make assumptions - what better way than to watch the terrible state we are in on the football field to gauge how well he is doing so far!

Our eyes tell us all we need to know every time we struggle to keep them open during games!

20 Jan 2015 14:23:52
Beast, totally disagree with most of your posts, but I love reading them, mate. I detect a slight stirring of the pot in your posts, mixed with a dash of tongue-in-cheek humour.

I think people are maybe taking you up wrong. Or maybe I am :)

Red Man, you're not the only oldie on here remember! It's not good at the minute, and mistakes have, and are, being made. But it has been much worse.

Beast, I realise all that mate and I totally understand that you are just trying to "back up" your opinion. I don't like to see one poster constantly getting shot down all the time, as you are by most. But of the 9 points you listed, most of them just come across as being written by a pig headed person who refuses to acknowledge any positive achievements by a manager you clearly despise. I am sure you are not a pig headed person (unless you have a big snout and pointy ears?), but some of your posts make you appear as such.
I don't even think anyone on here thinks LvG is the new "messiah", but some of us realise it is going to take time. Hell, LvG even said we should expect this sort of scenario, as soon as he took the job.
Give him time, and then judge him. I remember last season, many people were criticising Mourinho at Chelsea for being boring and negative. For setting up to not lose, rather than win games. Many thought he had lost his mojo and said Chelsea were boring and would win nothing playing thay way. Now, do you think he has given in to all those critics, or was he merely taking the team back to basics and forming a strong foundation from which they could build. Move onto this season, and that strong foundation as enable Chelsea to play good exciting football with great success. Maybe, just maybe LvG is trying to do the same.
Of course, that might all be nonsense and we could be playing the same boring football next year. He may well not even be here next year. But my point is, give him the time to sort the team out, get in the players he needs and then see where we are.
I am not comparing Lvg to Mourinho directly, but see the difference a year makes given the time, and players that he needed and wanted.

20 Jan 2015 14:45:03
Stevie,

I enjoy Beast's post too, if I didn't I wouldn't reply to them, there is no malice or personal abuse in my disagreeing, and if we all agreed it would be boring.

Unfortunately though I don't think Beast's posts are a wind up and there is no stirring of the pot going on, the opinions are genuinely his own, if they aren't then he is wasting a lot of time saying them 10 times a day.

20 Jan 2015 15:16:50
GDS, maybe wind-up was the wrong way of putting it. I just don't think he's taking himself as seriously as others are.

"No progress"? The league position and stats say something different.

Just saying.

20 Jan 2015 20:19:30
Red Man, I honestly don't know who you're referring to, when you say that people who wanted to give Moyes a fair crack at it last season, are the same ones calling for LVG's head now.

Apart from one lad, Beast is the only guy I've seen on here, who's come out and emphatically stated he wants LVG to be sacked now. You're making over-exaggerated generalisations to prove a point it would seem.

99% of the rest of us, whilst frustrated to varying degrees, with some of the things we've witnessed, are aware that sacking a manager so soon after his appointment, would be stupid and counter-productive.

Steviek

Beast is directly calling for LvG to be sacked however there are posters who were calling for Moyes to have more time being very negative towards LvG in far less time.

20 Jan 2015 23:09:39
Maybe they just expected more from him, with his CV and the money spent.

I wasn't expecting fireworks, because I wasn't a big fan of his to begin with, but I probably was expecting a bit better than what we've seen. Still time, though.

StevieK

LVG was far from my first choice but at least his CV matches the job standard

20 Jan 2015 04:42:21
louis louis louuuuiiisss

Due to injuries we cut you some slack. So we wanna see you change your tactics and put four in the back, 3 in the midfield and 3 in attack.

This will surely help us. get our Trophy back, hence the reason why a true leader for our Defence should be bought with all expense