Manchester United Banter Archive January 20 2019

20 Jan 2019 21:53:52
It seems the knives are still out for our last manager, however, whilst it is popular to criticise him there is a point people keep ignoring.

Yesterday the Chelsea manager Sarri, said of his players, 'This defeat was due to our mentality. this group of players are extremely difficult to motivate'. This is a group who have shown they play when they want to, the club puts them before the manager. It is like a wave pattern, manager comes in and they do well, manager asks them to do something they don't like they down tools and the manager is eventually sacked.

Everyone is glowing in Ole's seven wins but is forgetting our own players started in this cycle and we are just as vulnerable to it as Chelsea. Right now players are "happy", but what happens when they are not. SAF said the power should be with the manager and I hope Woodward sees that, whoever is our long term option. We have players who clearly down tooled whilst Mourinho was manager and it could easily happen again. We need to think whether we want a turnover of managers like Chelsea, so instead of just criticising our last manager we should realise there is a lurking issue still to be resolved that formed part but not all the reason why he was sacked. Whoever becomes the next permanent manager will need absolute commitment at board level or we will see the wave pattern at United.

20 Jan 2019 22:30:34
It's a terrible trend in football sadly and it's been going on for quite some time. It was only because Sir Alex was unsackable that we weren't accustomed to it but player power has been around a long time.

Jose likes his senior players because their mentality isn't as fragile as a younger player. I always loved seeing the inside of a dressing room when a manager is going mental at a team. I'm not sure it happens anymore? It's not to say that his way is right or wrong it's just slowly being outdated.

Jose failed the players and the players failed the manager and both failed the club.

Everything is rosie in the garden now but what happens when Lukaku isn't happy about being on the bench and his mate Pogba starts stirring crap. The dissent from the players was completely unprofessional at the end of Joses tenure.

Is Ole the man that could survive the dressing room if and when they sour? Our players have shown they're shrinking violets. We need a lot of work, is he the man that can handle it or will he be so happy he's the boss that he let's the bigger players dictate the club?

20 Jan 2019 22:41:26
Red man, I completely agree. There are other issues that need sorting. Woodward is still just as clueless, the club still don't have a clear identity or vision moving forward, and the "problem" players are still at the club.

However, I do feel the only reason anyone is still mentioning the previous manager is because that manager has come out talking about the club in the press over the last couple of days. Thus it is all dug up again.

I am happy to put the whole Mourinho era down to a bad decision by all involved. I am happy to thank Jose for the cups he won with us, and the hard work he put in. I wish him well and success in his future endeavours.

I still feel that he was the architect of his own downfall at our club, but am prepared to admit there were several mitigating circumstances that certainly didn't help him.

Time to move on. We have Ole now, at least for the time being. And he is doing better than any of us expected. Let's enjoy it.

20 Jan 2019 23:08:32
He's gone. He has nothing whatsoever to do with our club any more. Let's put him out of our minds, give thanks for actually enjoying watching our team play again, and leave him to blame whoever he likes. Nobody is saying there aren't other issues, or that we should just give Olé the job now, but one person was mainly responsible for José failing, and that was José. Olé is just showing that it's not rocket science, when you have talented players in your squad.

21 Jan 2019 00:17:35
For a manager to admit they are struggling, does that not show they are incapable of doing their job?

21 Jan 2019 03:57:50
Redman I have to completely disagree with you on Chelsea, watching the arsenal Chelsea game felt like watching a lvg game. Chelsea had possession but most of it was pointless, sarri seems to not understand how to use kante, jorginho looks more like blind than xavi in the role he has been given, add to that they don't have a striker, it looked more to me that a manager messing up tactically than players doing anything wrong.

21 Jan 2019 06:27:11
But Mourinho is right about the lack of structure. We are not organized as Man City and do not have a clear vision to move forward.

21 Jan 2019 06:30:19
CSM
I agree on Chelsea tactical set up against Arsenal but their very new manager is flagging the same failing that keeps costing managers their jobs. If they don’t like what they are being asked they don’t put 100% in and the downhill path to the manager being sacked starts, repeat. That is what I don’t want to see at United and we still have the same bunch of players.

21 Jan 2019 08:23:22
We do have the same bunch of players. Yet was it ever likely that we would sell all or even any of the trouble makers in January?

Chelsea's troubles started when the owner started getting too friendly with the players and they felt they had the ear of the owner.

21 Jan 2019 08:52:02
Red Man, you make a good point, I think it's starting to happen more and more. Was it Argentina in the World up who pretty much decided to ignore the manager completely?

I don't knoww what the answer is but I suspect very good motivational and man management skills would help.

Chelsea is is fascinating as he has chosen to call them out, it will be interesting to see how they react.

21 Jan 2019 08:53:32
Redman got me sarri is using an old excuse save himself in Chelsea's case, about our problems with player power, have we actually seen anything to suggest players deliberately under performing.

When the first Mourinho sacking rumors came out, it was martial, shaw and pogba who were our best performers, post his virus rant pogba was on the bench and martial and shaw were still playing pretty well it wasn't on any of them that our results were bad, if you look at players whose performance have gone up dramatically since the sacking only 1 name comes to mind that's matic, pogba went through a bad spell but before and after that he has been ok, nothing special but he is scoring goals because the manager is allowing everyone to attack.

If you look at all our managers only under moyes can I say players clearly downed tools and most of those aren't here anymore. Under lvg it was a tactical failing, under Mourinho it was bad tactics and clearly demotivated team. In last 7 games whose performances have seriously improved so much for Mourinho or anyone else to suggest that players downed their tools?

21 Jan 2019 10:14:32
CSM, you make a good point. Did the players truly down tools?

I suppose that depends on what it means to "down tools". Surely the most obvious meaning is exactly as it sounds you down your tools and refuse to work. So how many players refused to play football for Jose Mourinho? I would argue none. None refused to pull on the shirt and go out and play. So in the true sense no players downed tools.

However, I think what most consider "downing tools" is in fact not giving 100% effort. Which in itself is a very grey area. For example there have been many days at work where I will admit I didn't give it 100% effort, maybe I was hungover, or had a cold, or had an argument with the misses, or was distracted by things in my private life or even things on a global scale. I have also managed people and I can say that even highly motivated people don't put in 100% effort all the time.

So with that in mind how many of us can categorically say that any perceived lack of effort was definitely down to the players refusing to work for the manager?

Is it simply the players putting more effort in now which has seen an up turn in results?

I disagree, we have a poor defence, one which will give our opponents chances. So it doesn't make sense to invite pressure on that defence and make them do more defending than absolutely necessary. Yet That was exactly the tactics Mourinho employed. Ole has gone the other way and asked our side to spend more time attacking than defending and suddenly when our better players have the ball more and our weaker players are relied on less we look a better side. That has nothing to do with motivation or effort, just common sense and good tactics.

First rule of team sports, play to your strengths. Ours isn't defending so setting our side up to defend is setting them up to fail.

I do believe the players could have worked harder under Mourinho, yet I don't believe in dictatorships. So a leader has to lead by inspiration. You inspire those around you to work hard, to follow you and to adopt your vision. Did Mourinho inspire his players? No, they looked demotivated because of his actions. So was the fault the players or the managers? I would say both, but mostly the managers as it is a huge part of his remit to motivate the players. Jose failed on that front and that played a large role in him losing his job. The other issue was his insistence on playing a certain way that didn't play to his players strengths but exposed their weaknesses.

All in all it was poor management, yet no one has covered themselves in glory. The board, Ed Woodward, the manager and the players. That is why that despite how well some of our players are playing Ole is getting all the credit. Because he is the one thing that is different so he gets the credit for the up turn in performance. The buck starts and stops with the manager. Ole gets the credit for the team performing well as Jose took the blame for them performing badly.

21 Jan 2019 10:44:04
I have no clue how it became got me, it should be to me.

21 Jan 2019 12:09:32
A professional will go out and do their job, even with a poor man-manager in charge. But run through a brick wall for them? Hardly.

21 Jan 2019 14:45:56
Lets just be glad he has gone and we are now playing some decent footy with some positive tactics .

22 Jan 2019 04:33:00
You could argue that it was Mourinho who created this situation at Chelsea and United by his mismanagement of players. That’s only one of his failings.

20 Jan 2019 12:27:04
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new article entitled, Former Liverpool Managers - Part 7 - The Clown Prince

20 Jan 2019 08:34:37
It’s always someone else’s fault isn’t it. It was someone else’s fault he fell out with the Spain players at Madrid, it was someone else’s fault he treated the Chelsea physio so badly, it was someone else’s fault he lost the Chelsea dressing room, it was someone else’s fault he dropped our player of the year for pretty much a whole season, it was someone else’s fault Rashford looked to be going backwards, it was someone else’s fault he couldn’t get the best out of a £90M player, it was someone else’s fault we have been dire this year. It was someone else’s fault he slagged his players off in public, it was someone else’s fault we park the bus every time we go to Anfield, it was someone else’s fault he changed his CBs every game, it was someone else’s fault Sanchez got picked for every game despite stinking the place out.

I’m fed up of the arrogance and deluded narcissism Jose constantly displays, he sounds like King Canute trying to repel the ocean but deep down he knows he can’t. United have issues to resolve and those issues may currently prevent us being able to challenge at the very top. However, if you treat your players properly, allow them to express themselves, embrace the United ethos, pick a settled team, treat attack as the best from of defence, trust youth, then you don’t end up languishing somewhere between 6th and 8th miles off the top 4.

Ole has shown the potential of this team, there’s work to do but in the first 17 games we had 26 points which is just over 1.5 points per game. Since he’s gone we have won the last 6, so a third of the games, twice the points compared to Jose. Goals per game has gone up from 1.7 to 2.83. I don’t think Ole is a managerial prodigy, I think he knows how to treat people, he has humility, he gets the club, and he’s doing the simple things well. Sometimes, when you have good players, it’s not rocket science.

Joses behaviour and performance this season has been disgraceful and he got what he deserved.

{Ed025's Note - great post AJH..

20 Jan 2019 09:05:39
Great post Tony, everytime the man opens his mouth now I lose a little more respect for him.

Constantly making excuses and snide backhanded comments, believing that he had no part to play in what we had become and this constant obsession with pep and Klopp.

To anyone who watches the beautiful game it is glaringly obvious what our problem was and now it's gone.

{Ed025's Note - very much so deano..

20 Jan 2019 09:14:56
Tony, he's gone. Let us resolve, from this day forward, to speak about him no more!

{Ed025's Note - nah..lets give him the stick he deserves forever noucamp, he almost single handedly destroyed united and let it be a warning to every other manager that second best will not be tolerated at united mate..

20 Jan 2019 09:37:19
Top post Tony. And whole heartedly agree ed. I think the most ridiculous thing he claimed was that second with this squad was the best achievement he has ever made. So disrespectful to the players he had. I have always maintained that this isn’t a bad squad. Yes I don’t think it’s quite good enough to win the league. But it’s more than good enough to be third. It’s unbalanced with attacking talent and lack of in defence. But Jose should be ashamed of himself for tricking fans into believing this squad could not play attacking football. Each victory and performance is banging a nail into his coffin for me. When you have the likes of rashford, martial, Lingard, pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku and you can’t win your easy home games then there is clearly a problem with your tactics. It’s time he moved on and time we did so as well. I will not be mentioning his name again 😂.

{Ed025's Note - i just want to be the guy on the hammer when them nails are going in park mate.. :)

20 Jan 2019 09:43:16
People turned on the on players, rashford didn't have that much natural talent, shaw and martial needed sold as did the virus pogba .

Maybe the issue was just an outdated manager.

{Ed025's Note - very much so jred..

20 Jan 2019 09:46:01
Speak about who.

20 Jan 2019 10:07:51
I think we can all wholeheartedly agree the relief he is out of our club forever feels amazing. OGS may not be the new messiah, but he has brought back our identity and a feel good factor in only one month and we ought to be very grateful to him for that regardless of whether he stays in May or is replaced by someone else. What a start he has made, and done it with humility, Grace and class whilst playing some good football. None of which Jose achieved with us.

{Ed025's Note - thats the word eric..."class", some have it and some dont mate..

20 Jan 2019 10:09:13
This was meant to be a reply to a post down the page, I must have clicked new post instead. There’s a thread down the page kind of defending him, I’m not having it.

20 Jan 2019 10:17:04
It’s been obvious since the start of this season that Jose was focused on protecting his own reputation. Publicly complaining about lack of transfers, saying his players aren’t good enough to compete, playing players out of position in big games to prove a point, and focusing on Pogba as the cause of poor squad morale.

There are big issues at the club in terms of structure, a lack of modernisation, and lacking of footballing insight at the very top. But Jose’s job was to get the best out of the players he had at his disposal. He couldn’t do this, and moved to protect his own reputation at the expense of all else.

{Ed025's Note - your spot on danny mate..

20 Jan 2019 10:34:05
It doesn’t seem the post I wrote has yet made it to the page. I am not defending our ex manager but take a look at what is happening at Chelsea, again. We are conveniently pointing the finger at Mourinho for all ills, who yes, deserves blame, yet seemingly forgetting the players part. There are some players who have now decided to play, for how long? If we want a manager not a coach we need to get the decision right in summer and give them authority. If we jettison another manager when players stamp their feet we will be in a yo yo position. If we want a coach not a manager, then good but that is what the restructure should bring. It was not just the manager who was the problem but part of it.

20 Jan 2019 10:34:09
I think most of us wanted it to work. It didn't. The man can't help himself. His record stands for itself and at united its not a good record.

On a side note Canute is actually the opposite to Jose. One day he'd had enough of sycophantic yes men telling him how great he was so ordered the throne carried to the beach and ordered the tide back to prove the point that he was just a guy and not all that great. Quite humble and certainly not Jose.

20 Jan 2019 10:47:21
I fully disagree with your post. He has the right to say whatever he wants and i don't think any of us knows what went behind the scenes at UTD.

He is class and has won a lot in his career and he should be treated with respect from players which he didn't get it because players now a days are like small girls or very pampered.

Its funny how we are still talking about Mourinho even though he is gone and we should really be talking about how good we are playing and how positive Ole has been but we still decide to criticise Mourinho.
😂😂😂.

20 Jan 2019 10:44:41
Just been reading sir alexs first autobiography. Sounded like you were describing him Tony 😂 seems to be a trait that runs through some of the most successful managers.

Ed025? Singlehandedly brought united down? Give it a rest mate. OTT if ever I read a comment on this site. We know you don't like him but that's just hyperbole.

He was a bad fit for this club at a time where we needed something else and better qualified people in the boardroom. Ole seems to be a really good fit at this particular time. It takes pressure and focus away from ed Woodward (maybe not the best thing, but could be just what he needs to find the right pieces behind close doors) And he has the players enjoying the football that they are playing.

As for the 'virus', his recent run of form does not forgive him for his last 2 years of sub par performances and attitude. He needs to continue this for quite some time and when the chips are down (they will be at some point) he needs to show the club and fans that he is willing to fight and not manoeuvre a move away.

{Ed025's Note - your right about me not liking him angel but thats because i think hes an arse clown, maybe your a fan of his i dont really know but he was the worst thing to happen to united in many a year, if it was not his fault that united were a disgrace then you tell me who was to blame?, its ok you being all PC about him but open your eyes mate...and tell it like it is..

20 Jan 2019 11:01:16
Savage ed025 😂.

{Ed025's Note - yet fully justified mate.. :)

20 Jan 2019 11:02:27
Singh the words you used to describe players could easily be used to describe the manager himself. He has won a lot but then so have pogba, ronaldo, hazard didn't stop the manager from throwing them under the bus to cover his ass did it. He has now tried to blame everybody but himself for getting sacked 3 times in a row, who cries to the media everytime he doesn't get his way, sounds to me as you put it lot like small little pampered girl.

We are discussing him because since has gone, we have played watchable football, there is no one at the club consistently telling the fans that the club is mediocre or the players playing are rubbish and how while other managers can improve players but he can't and it is the player's fault, and what wondrous magic it must be that the players are actually playing as well as most people expected them to, now that there is no one calling them rubbish every day of the week.

{Ed025's Note - exactly CSM..

20 Jan 2019 11:07:25
Ed025 I think he's a top coach that just wasn't right for us. i'd imagine he will go on and undoubtedly win more. Arse clown? I don't know him mate, many people that do know him seem to have a different opinion about him. Big fan of is? No, particularly not a fan of the way he handled certain issues and he tends to have this air around him when things are going wrong. But i'm not going to go OTT and say he singlehandedly destroyed united, that's just not true regardless of what you think of him.

{Ed025's Note - top coach? maybe at one time angel, but ask the supporters at real, chelsea or united and they will tell you different, hes a dinosaur and an egotistical one at that, spent squillions on players at these clubs yet had them all playing outdated football and thats why the 3 of them got shut of the special needs one, i know some people still rate him mate...but hopefully these people will be re-captured very soon and get the mental health care they really need.. :)

20 Jan 2019 11:17:13
Then why weren't these players playing like this under the previous manager. It is because they are spoilt brats. You ahouldnt pick and choose who to play for . You are in a job and like in any job you should be trying your best and not whinging.

{Ed025's Note - because they were under motivated playing an out dated system and being led by a tyranical monster who constantly trashed them in the press?..

20 Jan 2019 11:25:37
My post wasnt meant to be seen as a defence, just that he had some interesting things to say.

20 Jan 2019 11:41:55
Singh the same player who was described as virus, has now played under 4 different managers other than mourinho, none of whom had an issue with him. Same with hazard, same with Ronaldo, yet some how it is player's fault.

look at how pogba has played since he left, he hasn't been any different than he was earlier. There isn't any extra tracking back or anything else, only difference is he isn't scared to make forward passes for the fear of losing the ball or having to play in a mid field 2 where he can't get into the box as much.

This is basically a manager who hasn't won as much or has that experience but just seems to understand that his got good attacking players and is allowing them to attack.

20 Jan 2019 12:23:38
Hardly interesting enough to be debated with such vigour.

20 Jan 2019 12:47:54
5hat monster must be something special if he only just won two trophies two years ago.

Any employee needs a structure behind him and if he doenst get that then he will fail. Mourinho didn't get what he wqnted and he failed.

There are many ways to win football and Mourinho has his own style and i get that some players don't suit him and that is the reason he failed.

Some would argue why didn't he adapt to the players he had then that should apply ro everyone. Pep shouldve adapted to what he had when he took over Man City and not buy a whole new defence to suit his needa or Klopp shouldve played with Balotelli and co rather then going and purchasin Mane and co.

I bet you if Guardiola or Klopp didn't buy those players they woukdve been sacked by now and they wouldn't be competing for the title this year.

20 Jan 2019 13:50:03
Singh players should adapt is poor logic when most players you want to replace are the ones Mourinho himself bought.

If pogba did not suit his style maybe don't spend 100mn on him, if Sanchez is not what you want don't buy him, if you want good defenders, you should have bought other players and not bailly and lindelof. Maybe don't buy a midfielder for 50mn who doesn't suit your style and thus never play him.

Guardiola bought what he needed and uses them as such he did not have a falling out with sterling and stones and try and throw them under the bus he improved them, klopp has turned likes of wijnaldum, Milner, Shaqiri into decent players, Mourinho turned 2 world class players into rubbish, that's why they are competing and he is commenting.

20 Jan 2019 13:54:11
I wouldn't say single handedly. Woodward retains some culpability. Why offer him a new deal then not back him. I can understand concerns regarding spending on players with little sell on value because of age. But why give him a contract if you already have those concerns.

20 Jan 2019 16:18:22
Always needed money for success.
Got fortunate in his early job, lived a great career off the back of it.
Doesn't coach, he's a tactician not a coach.

20 Jan 2019 21:52:28
Good post AJH.
I agree with most except the part about OGS not being the managerial prodigy. To me it’s too early to decide or not. We all need to learn and improve and he certainly does too. At least we know that he has SAF walking close behind guiding and mentoring him. There is still plenty of knowledge that SAF can transfer to him. We didn’t really see SAF near the previous 3 managers. I’m quite sure the legendary SAF would like to see OGS succeed.
All that said I’m not going to suggest if whonis the right manager. A lot of fans thought Moyes was right then same with LVG and certainly more thought Jose as well.
For me I’ll just support the club and go with whoever is appointed. If that manager is wrong it won’t take long to see through 😉.
For the time being let’s all just enjoy and not be too quick to criticize (not aiming at you AJH) . It’s difficult to please everybody 🤣.

20 Jan 2019 21:54:49
I replied a post but doesn’t seem to be posted.
Anyway as far as Jose is concerned I never like him when he was not in Man Utd and still didn’t when he was with us. However I just supported just because he was part of the club. Now he is gone I’m back to my not liking him.
I do agree that he is a good manager (in his past) but that his tactics would probably not suit us and a bit outdated. He has not evolved. Sad but like some President said “bye bye” 🤣.

20 Jan 2019 21:58:11
His second spell at Chelsea showed why he should have not been appointed as the manager.

He blamed everyone but himself.
Fortunately he didn't blame our physio like he did at Chelsea.

He will never admit to having made a mistake.

Well all tried to sum up energy to watch United play, but even shopping with the Mrs made more sense than watching United under Mourinho.

Mourinho's ego will be his downfall.

Woodward's running of the club can't be swept under the rug. A DOF is needed, we all know this, but Woodward is out of his depth with transfers etc.

Sponserships deals etc are his forte.

20 Jan 2019 12:40:14
he had the chance to reflect on what happened at Chelsea and to a lesser degree at Madrid and think about if he perhaps needed to change or adapt in any way: it seems he didn't take that chance.

Singh, i am not excusing the players but I remember Scholes once threw his toys out of the pram. A good Manager understands how he needs to treat players to get the best out of them. Simply put, Jose was unable to get the best out of this group of players. All the other issues I listed were to highlight he deserved little sympathy, the bottom line is he did not get us playing attacking football, he had us languishing in 8th. As we are seeing now, if we have the ball and are attacking, it kind of stops the other team threatening.

I'm 100% with Ed, piece by piece Jose was dismantling everything we stand for. His press conferences were embarrassing, every time he opened his mouth I cringed. He deserves respect for what he has won, but he's been overtaken by a new breed who not only play football the right way, but are generally polite and engaging.

From the disagrees its clear we are pretty divided on this and its not always black and white. For me though, he should have never been allowed within 100 miles of our club.

20 Jan 2019 17:28:34
Ed,

I think Mourinho was part of the problem because of the differences in ideas of management.

Mourinho wanted support and United didn't offer him.

The only people you can point fingers at is the person who decided to appoint Mourinho and give him a new contract.

I am pretty sure Mourinho will go elsewhere with his so called dinosaur tactics and win titles but unfortunalely its not going to be at United as we sacked him.

To be honest with you i am just enjoying the football right now and if Ole does well then i think we should give him the job.

{Ed025's Note - he was not part of the problem singh...he was the problem, as for him getting support..how about over £400m worth?, im afraid i just dont get the excuses people are making for him mate..