Manchester United Banter Archive October 20 2013

20 Oct 2013 23:10:15
Jase,

I can assure you I do watch football and Rooney running around but doing little does not make him any more the footballer he once was than Torres once was.

Two great players in their day but for both of them it's plain to see they've lost that extra ability that set them apart from others.

So to consider him a better option than Kagawa who was on another level for Dortmund, then you really are clutching at some pathetic straws and the one that doesn't see what's right in front of him.

When Kagawa proves on the pitch, for United, that he is a better option than rooney then I will concede your point Marcellus. Up until now all I've seen is thst he isn't ready for premier league football week in week out. Whether its simply his physical stature, or the style of play that we are playing at the moment, i'm not sure, but what I've seen of him so far is that he has lots of talent but struggles to make an impact on a game. Maybe you do watch football marcellus but you certainly don't watch united, as if you did you would see this. i'm not saying Kagawa is a bad footballer at all, but with Rooney in the form he's been in of late, then I would have him in the team over Kagawa any day of the week.
Of course i'm not blind to the fact either that Kagawa deserves a good run in the team, and i'm sure he will get it. Personally the way we are playing at the moment I would drop RVP play Rooney further up the field and have Kagawa in the "hole". However this would be an extremely risky move from moyes, and if it backfired all the "Moyes Out" brigade would have a field day, and ultimately it would just increase the pressure on moyes and the team. However when we turn this around, which i'm absolutely positive we will, i'm sure moyes will experiment with different players. However until then I think he will play it safe, and try to grind out results, just as SAFs teams have been doing for many years.

21 Oct 2013 07:46:51
Liverpool Fan Peace.

I would love us to pay upto 15 mil for Kagawa, His flair would be enough, he is such a brilliant technical player.

21 Oct 2013 13:24:33
Unlucky for you he's worth ten million on top of that. We only got him cheap as he had twelve months left.

20 Oct 2013 22:47:49
Like most of you, I'm less than happy about the style of football that's currently being played under Moyes. Some of the team selections and substitutions are baffling. Where are the likes of Kagawa and Hernandez? Things will need to improve quickly if United are to remain in the title race. I still believe that a top 4 finish is likely. We have a great squad.

Positives: Moyes is playing Januzaj, and he's signed a 5-year deal. Ferguson would have never played him. This is huge.

What I do find unbelievable is the amount of people calling for Moyes' head 8 GAMES INTO THE SEASON. Are we Chelsea? There are still 30 games left to play. This is Moyes' first season at United. The greatest manager of all time has retired. Let's take a step back and think about how lofty our expectations actually are. He's overhauled practically the entire backroom staff and had a disastrous transfer window which was not helped by the Rooney situation.

If it takes a season of being out of the title race and fighting for the top four before Moyes begins to have success at United, I'll still support the club. We have no god-given right to win the league. Yes we are Man Utd, but we are a uniquely different Manchester United than we have been in the last 25+ years. The squad needs some changing. The manager needs time. Let's get behind him. Can't believe people are already screaming for Moyes to be sacked.

Moyes isn't being paid £5m a year as some sort of apprentice. At that price he should already be the finished article. The reason for the frustration is because of the massive mistakes he has made behind the scenes. £4m extra for the wig, sacking a successful back room staff. This though is nothing compared to the lack of progress we are seeing on the pitch! There were many of us fearful that his defensive, negative style was hard wired and unfortunately it looks like it is. He's had a lot more than 8 games to implement his changes. (Perhaps he's struggling because the players just don't buy in to 3 passes and a hoof upfield)
I would be more than happy to see United change coach every 3 years if it brought us success and constant evolution. (SAF was unique and we should not try and emulate him)The thought of 10 years of Moyes is far too depressing to consider!

Didn't we have a long and successful period under SMB to, so it happened twice not once and it can happen again and SAF obviously thinks DM can do it for us and we looked like the attack is starting to click now he needs to get the defence at full throttle and we can go on a big winning run

IMO all that Moyes has in common with Sir Alex and Sir Matt is his Scottishness. Yes both Sir Alex and Sir Matt before him had long and prosperous reigns at the helm, but so far Moyes looks completely out of his depth.

As mentioned by unitedred71, Moyes is hardly inexperienced. He hasn't in his career produced the 2 things that are needed to be the United manager. 1 attacking football and 2 tropheys.

There are a number of other managers who would be a better fit who provide attractive football - Klopp, AVB, Laudrup, Conte and many others.

I think if by Christmas there hasn't been a massive upturn in not just results but performances too then he needs to go.

Even Moyes replacement at Everton has won a trophy and plays attractive football and he's only 40 pretty scary that when you think about it as he's only going to get better with experience, but with moyes he's not a young manager anymore and I just cannot see him developing as to me he seems to set in his ways.

I know everyone on here blames it on his Everton tactics and Everton mentality, but I think that's unfair on Everton as he had the same tactics and mentality at Preston, so for me its David Moyes tactics and mentality nothing to do with Everton or anyone else.

20 Oct 2013 21:15:11
I had an open mind when David Moyes was appointed manager of Manchester United, but here are 9
reasons why I think he needs to go: 1. The transfer fiasco started it. then his waffle that they got the 'player'they were after all along - Fellaini!
2. Moyes then sacked the best backroom staff in the Premier League -
Manchester United's Mike Phelan, Rene
Meulensteen and goalkeeping coach
Eric Steele.
3. He hasn't tried Zaha, who SAF signed from Crystal Palace for £15m, in a competitive match this season.
4. Moyes has overplayed Ferdinand, Vidic and Giggs.
5. He has played Young, Nani, Valencia, when many feel that they
aren't good enough for a Manchester
United team.
6. Moyes has played Smalling at right back - he is not a right back.
7. He has undermined Evra by trying to sign a new left back.
8. He is blaming the players for a lack of consistency, yet he appears to
have no idea on tactics / strategy
himself.
9. Finally, Moyes appears to have no idea on training, and seems to be
unable to recognise a good player
when he sees one.

20 Oct 2013 21:53:57
i like your post, made me smile :) agree with u, moyes has to go before he makes us play rubbish, he is clueless moyes out, thenew52 {Ed007's Note - Zee can you try and remember to log in buddy, thanks.}

20 Oct 2013 21:03:19
Can people stop making out we were amazing and walked the league last year please? We didn't points lie, we played awful and scraped through most games, we had a load of luck for us when playing and we also were doubly lucky that our key competitors had major problems with management and quality.

Winning the league last year was the biggest stroke of luck ever and teams took their foot off the gas toward the end of the season, we were lead into a false sense of security and now we are paying for it.

The overriding fact about last year is this RVP won us the title.If he had not joined we would be playing on Thursday nights in the Europa League not winning a title.So far this season RVP has not performed to last years standard.Many can talk about quality in this team but it really is the worst side we have had in 20years.Many of our players are way overrated and those of real quality can't get a game.

20 Oct 2013 23:01:03
We weren't all conquering ladt season but we knew how to win. And we didn't defend 1-0 leads as we knew that it would bite us in the arse.

We threw everything at teams as that was the only way we were going to win with a gapping hole in midfield and an ageing and unsettled defence due to injuries.

Titles are won and lost on the strength of your defence, if you don't conceed then you don't lose. It also gives you the freedom to attack teams uninhibited if you have a solid defence.

It might be hard to accept but we need to move Rio, Evra and Vidic on and bring in a top class defender to build our defence around, someone who can lead the defence and bring them together as a unit. Evans, Smalling and Jones should then compete for a game along side the new defender.

We then need a left back who knows how to defend, a couple of midfielders, one world class the other potentially world class. Then we need a new creative midfielder.

Mangala would be my first choice at CB as very few CB have his combination of authority and speed. Alberto Moreno would be my choice at LB as there really is a lack of world class options so its best we go with a player who has the potential to be world class. Then i'd like to see either Koke or Gundogan for midfield with maybe someone like Obiang or Rode coming in too. With possibly Cabella or Konoplyanka as the player to add a spark further forward. Although Draxler would be my first choice but he is likely to be too expensive when you consider how many other signing are needed.

Shappy

We won a bunch of games last year by a goal and hung on whilst under siege from other teams and Fergie dropped Rooney in favor of shoring up the middle on a number of times, which created all the fuss.

We looked very poor the last 2 months of last year and I agree we are now conceding goals in the most unfortunate time, which is a function of an old team with old legs.

I have been saying this for quite some time, we need to drop one striker and go with a 5 man midfield. I would personally drop Rooney and play RVP but that is not going to win me many friends on this site. My view is purely because RVP is better finisher and better holding the ball up as a lone striker.

21 Oct 2013 10:15:39
Shahram, I agree that we didn't play great football last season but we always looked like we could score. Now unless Januzaj does something then it looks like we are unable to score in open play. We look nervous and defensive all the time rather than trying to play to our strengths.

As for dropping a striker, I understand the logic to that but personally i'd rather drop our wingers. Why drop one of RvP or Rooney who are our two best players when we could drop one of Valencia, Nani or Young?

Considering what we have available atm I would play a 4312, with Evans and Jones at CB as we need fresh legs and they need to be given games. Maybe Smalling and Vidic could get a few games in rotation.

Then i'd play a midfield three of Fellaini, Carrick and Valencia, once Cleverley is fit I would put him in there in place of Fellaini. Then play Carrick as the deepest with Cleverley playing pass and move and Valencia as the driving force through the middle. Its not ideal but imo the best we can do with what we have. That way with Valencia and Cleverley we would have some pace and movement in the middle. Obviously as soon as January comes round i'd look to go into the transfer market to sign someone more suited to playing centrally.

Then i'd play Januzaj or Kagawa behind Rooney and RvP.

Its a few subtle changes but it should make us more solid through the middle and it unables us to get our best attacking players on the pitch.

20 Oct 2013 17:46:07
The melt down on this site yesterday was incredible. Some perspective is needed, but unfortunately every loss of points is feeding the anti-Glazer and anti-Moyes agendas.

Much was made of subbing Rooney off for Smalling in the last 5 mins, come on - a perfectly reasonable substitution given the pressure we were under.

The only way Southampton looked like scoring was from a set piece. Moyes has every right to feel aggrieved that even with the addition of Smalling we conceded in the manor we did. If you look at where the ball lands you have to question the defenders who have not set up well at all. That ball needed at least contesting as a header, we wouldn't have conceded then.

The chances we made tell me that things are just not running for us at the moment. Sometimes this happens in football, and we just need to stay strong and together and work through it.

Many people are frustrated in particular at Kags not playing. Clearly Moyes doesn't fancy him, and I don't think he has taken the few chances he's been given. Januzej on the other hand has, and is ahead in the pecking order. So is Rooney, on merit in my opinion. He looks to have Nani or Tony V in mind for the right hand side.

Ok, so I'm not all sunshine and light, clearly something's not clicking at the moment. Yesterday Southampton played a high pressing game and we couldn't handle it. Worrying indeed since this is how all the top UCL teams now defend.

Under pressure Evra is a liability. He is one of the best attacking fullbacks around this year, but he is a weak point defensively. As everyone knows, he has to be replaced. Baines would be ideal in Jan.

Fellaini so far is not the answer to play alongside Carrick in a two. They are both too slow and both want to play deep. Maybe they can work out how to play together, but signs aren't great so far.

Final point (promise) is that Fergy spent years bringing Giggs on as an experienced head to close out games. Moyes tried the same and but for some awful defending at the corner we would have got there. Giggs on the bench takes chances away from the likes of Kagawa and Zaha. He should be used in cup games to bring experience to a young side.

Here here.

Dodgy

What no Armageddon, you should be tied up and burned for speaking such heresy :)

Dodgy you clueless person were you not watching the game yesterday we were out passed and out played all over the pitch. As for Anti Glazer who do you think is responsible for bringing in a manager who has won nothing but can work on a shoe string. Remember the damage Grahame Souness did in 2 years that is all it takes and with no money being put into the club we will fall behind clubs like Chelsea and City

Absolutely spot on. I particularly agree with you about there not being a Carrick-Fellaini partnership. I said a few weeks ago I see him ending up replacing Carrick I think the only reason we are playing them together at the moment is because we have no other alternative.
Let's see what happens in January, as I think we will go all out to get a quality midfielder. The owners and ed Woodward will surely be realising just how much investment this team needs now and hopefully we will see one or two good signings.

Yeah right! let's loose and draw some more. We played the mighty Southampton. Moyes is the man.

Guys,

The problem is defensive football that we now play. Even if we played sh!t last 2 seasons, we were outscoring teams. We weren't great defensively last year but that hope that we'll throw the kitchen sink at 'em in the last 5-10 mins and get the result, was there. Now we're looking to close out games 1-0, that's the prob.

We need to change tactics, get better in terms of our gameplay and get that attacking threat back; these are the larger issues for Mr. Moyes to address but being defensive in approach is disheartening, that is certainly not the club ethos!

Glad to see below that some optimism still exists on the site Shamram - was getting worried there for a minute! If it doesn't cheer up soon then armageddon-outta-here ;)

(Sorry)

Jonny dnt surf,

Is there really any need to be so venomous whenreplying to people with i'm different views to ures?
Come on pal, take a chill pill

Dodgy, at least we can have a laugh at our team, because if didn't, we'll cry!
We were being outplayed by Southampton. And not at the end, but throughout the match.
Last week, we got outplayed by wba. Few weeks back, we got thrashed by city. Even in the cup win against Liverpool, they totally outplayed us.
So it wasn't just the substitutions, its the whole way we're playing. We have a team full of attacking intent, and Moyes is intent on changing them into defenders.
To be honest, I'm not even sure what he's trying to do. We needed to bring Hernandez on to add some goal threat, but we chose to bring welbeck on and we all know what use he is!
Can u imagine the top teams doing that? Yes, if they were playing bayern, or barca or Real, but this was Southampton.
We've gone and bought a total pudding in fellaini, and paid £27m for him, and people want to give Moyes more money? This team won the league easily last year, and while the others have strengthened, we should be beating Southampton and wba at home.
One last argument about giving Moyes more time as he's only had a few games (over 17 UNC are season), this argument doesn't quite hold, as pelligriniand mourinho managed to come from different leagues and get their teams and systems going straight away, while we had a title winning team and somehow, moyes is turning them into total novices. How do we explain that?

Dodgy

I would recommend looking at the bigger picture, it is not about one game it is about decisions that are determining the future success of our club.

I posted earlier about history, our history, and am fascinated as to why people seem unable to see the position we have been put in and the similarities of when Sir Matt retired. We have made the same decision 40 years on by appointing someone without the requisite experience and failing to spend in the market. It was the perfect storm back then and we are facing it again and who knows whether Moyes has what it takes to pull us through. It was the risk we didn't need to take.

How many times have some of us also pointed out the similarities to Liverpool 1990 when their arrogance thought it would just go on and on, we are displaying the same arrogance. The owners have not spent in the market and this summer was absolutely vital that whoever was manager that we bought quality and we didn't.
Bury your heads if you wish but right now we are really on the brink and any student of history, our history would recognise it and escaping from it could be seriously difficult

Kagawa has been given few chances and it is something of a change for him playing in England to Germany.The lad needs time to adjust to our game and that will only happen with mins on the pitch.As for yesterdays inept decisions, we desperately need Moyes to learn that we need to keep the ball to close a game out.

Redman

I agree with your view that we completely screwed up the summer transfer window but don't necessarily agree with your doom and gloom scenario.

I honestly think he should ship out a bunch of players and retool the team and sell Rooney in the summer if he has not signed a new deal.

If it was not for the fellaini purchase, I would have no doubts about DM and agree "the manager needs to go" if he starts buying more guys like fellaini, however his record at everton for buying players has been very good.

Saf had many of blunders over the years in player purchases and many are still in this current team that who do nothing for me.

GCU

Moyes record at Everton at buying players was good, very good at buying Everton standard players. Which Everton player that Moyes bought has gone on to play at a really top club after Everton? He has players who got him to around 6th, he knows what to look for to do that and that is the level he knows, heaven knows what he was thinking when buying Fellaini, did that display an outstanding record?

I am someone who lived through 1968 onwards and the similarities are very concerning. The arrogance of thinking it will all just carry on, the appointment of a nice but totally insufficiently experienced manager, the lack of spending over the period to replace great players who had gone past their best is startlingly similar. I remember Sir Matt supposedly taking a back seat but his presence casting a shadow and where is SAF? The similarities are concerning and we just waltzed into it despite our history.

20 Oct 2013 16:59:59
7:30
Y did we buy Fellaini then?. to add some physical mobility. he has turned out to be the worst signing ever.

------

No name,

You are naming Fellaini the worst signing ever when he has played 5 games for the club, do you not think this might be a little bit of an overreaction? He is taking some time to settle into his new role and looks a little lost at times but you don't lose the ability overnight, give him a chance, more than 5 games anyway.

I think you will find José Kléberson Pereira, and Eric Daniel Djemba-Djemba were worse.

Taibi, bebe and bellion any1

Kleberson and Djemba Djemba cost a combined £7million.

Fellaini pretty much took up our entire summer budget by the looks of things.

Big difference.

RED_SKY the post did not say value for money it said worst signing.So I believe IANO 1-0 RED_SKY.You may feel Fellaini was the worst signing period but you would be wrong.

Red_sky,

You think Fellaini is United's worst signing ever then?!

IanO / GDS2

Where did I say that? I just pointed out that when the amount is that small, it's a drop in the pond - plenty of teams make small(ish) signings like that, who don't work out and get shipped out.

Fellaini was our big summer signing, and cost almost £30million. He's under the spotlight more as a result.

I thought he had qualities we were crying out for, but so far, I've never seen a slower man in my life. Which is weird, because I'm sure he didn't look like this at Everton. He was never the most mobile but he didn't have the turning circle of a 18-wheeler either.

To add, the 'IanO 1 - 0 Red_sky' comment is part of what's wrong with this site. Too many posters focused on getting 'one up' on other posters. GDS2 for example, if you're the same GDS as last season - you seemed more pleased with the fact that you'd got one over on me, than the fact we actually won the title.

It's a bit weird really. It's an internet message board.

As I took my humble pie last season, I'll be happy to take it again this season. Will you boys be as forthcoming if your optimism doesn't bear fruit this year?

20 Oct 2013 16:40:21
Giggs, Wellbeck and Smalling in as subs, somebody please explain to me why Giggs was brought in for Nani? Zaha and Kags unused subs, while Wellbeck waste a great pass and misses Rooney in front. I have never seen such poor use of substitutions

I'm starting to get fed up with Welbeck he really seems to lack urgency in a lot of situations when attacking. Kagawa should be playing instead of him regardless of his defensive advantages.

20 Oct 2013 15:47:49
Isnt it ironic that the energy cleverly gives in midfield is now being missed

Can I also say though that we would of won most of our games if it wasn't for awful defending

We should of been 2 up at least in first half

only 8 points from top is nothing at this time in the season

stop panicking we willc ome good

What good is energy with no light bulb.He has little to offer other than running much in the same mould as Anderson.

20 Oct 2013 14:16:26
I thought the most depressing comment from Moyes yesterday was his bemoaning bad defending at a corner to concede the equaliser.

Perhaps a better way of looking at it is if Utd had gone for a second goal then the game would probably have been played out in the Southhampton half and we wouldn't have conceded a corner in the first place.

If we kept pressing for a second and Southampton scored a well engineered goal on the counter attack then so be it. To go all defensive and invite them to bring it on is just asking for problems and more importantly is a million miles from the DNA of the club.

I juts read that myself. I can't believe he is blaming the result on switching off at a corner and not the abysmal performance. If he is saying that then it means all the focus will be on defending set-pieces rather than playing progressive football in training. What's going on argghhh?!

Now you know why I'm oyulling whatever hair I've got, out.
The man only knows one way of playing, and united never play this way. We don't have the players to implement it and I don't want us to become that way.
All the top teams defend as a team by pressing. Non of them have a Keane. They just crowd the man in possession with their athleticism and that is how they win possession. We jus allow the opposition to come on to us, and they are only too willing to do so.
One final point, I have been saying for a year that we should be playing with one up and five in midfield, this will make us hard to go through and the quality of the strikers we've got, we will get a shed load of goals. But Moyes will insist on playing with his two wingers. He does not want to change.

20 Oct 2013 13:12:39
Sorry guys another rant -

It was my birthday yesterday and I couldn't wait to see a revitalised Utd, I thought the Intl break would enable Moyes to work on his tactical side and realise what Utd fans expect.

Looking at the team sheet It reminded me of England versus Poland but with more quality, I was genuinely excited and thought my 4-0 predication looked good.

But what happened?

The key problem is Carrick & Fellaini don't feed the wingers quickly enough and I hate to say it but RVP is half the player he was last season, he looks like an old man who is getting a web site more and more because he knows he has lost a yard over the summer. He gets rubbish service and when he does get it there are so few midfield runners he is isolated.

The biggy though is we lack belief and whilst we can blame Moyes on that front as he needs to build their confidence as a manager, they are professionals at the very top of their profession and the game just seemed to pass them by, they should all be full of confidence - this is inexcusable. They don't seem to care and there is very little team unity.

RVP and Rooney can't play together, they are both quality in many ways but are too individual and have the same football brain, they clash. Rooney always gives the ball away a lot because of the way he plays, but he is giving it away more and more because of the lack of movement around him and trying to force things. Everything is far too obvious because we have players hiding, so when Rooney tries to improvise it ends up going to the opposition, not all Rooney's fault but he should realise who he is playing with and stop expecting certain players to have qualities they don't have or don't intend to use. He reminds me of the guy that always turns up the morning after a heavy night out full of beans when everybody else is dying with a hangover - "stop expecting us to run around Rooney, we don't feel like it, go away to Stamford Bridge or something!"

Carrick is too slow, far too slow, when he has the ball it allows opponents to get back in position and we lack the creativity to break teams down. He doesn't offer enough defensively and going forward he is non-existent.

I thought Fellaini would be a good buy, add some aerial ability to our midfield and free up some space by attracting opposing players, freeing up our creative guys. This isn't happening, in fact the opposite is happening, he is so slow and lacking in any form of confidence it's scary. I can't believe how wrong I was about him, he isn't even winning headers against far smaller players and can't pass more than 10 yards without giving it away. Their players were gliding past our midfield like they weren't even there.

Yet we have 4 of the most technically gifted players upfront and on the wings, it makes no sense that we are not creating more chances and looking like an assertive fluid team. I just think we are suffering from a massive loss in confidence and unfortunately it's down to Moyes and players like Giggs, Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Evra not doing what they are meant to do.

It's ok saying let's bring on the mature wise old head, keep them at the club for their experience etc, but they don't do anything at Utd that impacts our performance, so what exactly are they giving us? Rio spends half of his time on Twitter, Vidic looks like he wants a new home, Giggs needs a retirement home, Carrick couldn't be less inspiring if he tried and Evra whilst he seems like a good egg, he gives that impression of being an older version of Rooney the day after the night before, doing all the circuit training, bouncing around high fiving, but not knowing how to get the others to jump through those hoops with him.

There is no team spirit or unity, it looks like everyone is out for themselves. In short we look like England ASIDE from the first 45 minutes against Poland, the one thing I thought yesterdays performance would bring.

Our hearts aren't in it. The mice will play when the cats away and now SAF isn't there to get their backsides into gear they have no worries and realise the manager is going to be the scape goat in the media. They believe it can all be pinned on SAF leaving, not their own mind frames changing from hungry to fat and bloated in the space of one summer!

I look at the bench and see miserable faces on the players and Phil Nevilles clueless face and think what the hell has happened to Utd? All the allure and passion is gone. Our team has morphed into a self serving bunch of amateurs, most of whom will just be thinking of their next big transfer away from the crumbling mess at Old Trafford. They look at their management and have no respect and the repercussions of that are on show. I thought Moyes would demand respect, but so many of you seem to be right in that he isn't big enough for Utd and until he brings in his own players we will continue to see a form of rebellion by the players. You earn respect and Ferguson made the call thinking his players would respect his choice, they clearly haven't and Moyes having no real pedigree is now on a hiding to nothing.

It has been a house of cards for the past 4 years. the key difference now though is that Ferguson pulled away the key card and it's all crumbling down. I feel for Moyes, his heart is in it, but he is dealing with a bunch of Prima Donas and a horrible political situation at the club. He was told he could rely on the old pro's to help with the transition, but there seems to be very little support for him and I think the players have made their mind up that it's time for an easy life and they have nothing to lose by making mistakes here and there. Getting rid of the backroom staff was a gamble that didn't pay off, but we can't be too hard on him for that because he obviously has faith in his own guys and they helped him to get chosen for the Utd job - his loyalty to them is admirable, but his loyalty to our older players is not, they were SAF's guys not his.

Errors are creeping into our game at a terrible rate and this is all a result of no respect for the manager and players taking advantage of the situation, they don't care anymore and half the squad need to be culled or the manager needs to be changed. A team can't work if you are all heading in different directions and the only thing in common is those directions are all eventually going to lead to down!

I've gone 180 on Moyes & Fellaini, but only because I was not privy to all the obvious discontent from within the players. Another AVB at Chelsea I'm afraid, but we are not making the friction public.

Very well put mrsween

Agreed on all mcsween

20 Oct 2013 11:50:14
Just wanted to ask Ed02 what his feeling is towards the way the United fans are reacting to the Draw?

Personally I can't be bothered to moan about what's going on, there are going to be a lot of moments like this over the next 6 months.

{Ed002's Note - I didn't see too much of the site last night but I have generally noticed that fans of certain sides are over-reacting to on-field results. Liverpool fans have been the worst for this and both Arsenal and Manchester United fans are not far behind. The Arsenal fans have gotten their humble pie and have managed to take their early season success on the chin. The Manchester United fans are not happy with the results (and that is understandable) but need to ride it out this season. It would be much better if they could accept that and get behind the team and the manager. It'll be tough but perhaps the lesson to be learned is that there is no right to win and be top all of the time - which would be pretty tedious in any case.}

Thats what I said last night ed. Its embarrassing reading some of the posts on here at times.

20 Oct 2013 20:22:13
Summed up my thoughts perfectly, Moon and Ed02.

StevieK

20 Oct 2013 10:54:49
I believe we should have learnt from Sir Matts retirement, however it is obvious we didn't. Back then we appointed a coach with insufficient experience, yet the club on SAFs recommendation have done the same again. The owners made it clear it was SAFs recommendation and if, but more likely when, it backfires they would not be seen to be to blame but even so it was hard to see SAFs justification for a Moyes appointment in May. I said at the time it was a risk United did not need to take and I maintain that position.
We hit a peak in 2008 and a year later sold Ronaldo, since then the Glazers have massively underfunded the team. They have even got a few gullible people believing that buying quality players isn't the United way whilst prior to their arrival we bought top players and it made a difference. We have won even in the last three years based on a core of quality players that were there prior to their arrival, Scholes, Giggs and particularly major purchases Ferdinand and Rooney.
For the last three years the club have not invested in players properly at a time when others have, we have fallen behind notably and my point is that situation makes the Moyes appointment even more baffling. Moyes lacks credibility because he has not shown he can win or manage a side at the top, there is a massive question as to whether the top players will come and play for him, in fact there is a question watching the team as to whether the existing players are 100 percent on board. It comes back to credibility, the top managers engender credibility because players know they have a CV to show it. Moyes does not have that and it was an incredible risk appointing him. Then the performance in the transfer window may have harmed our reputation, however place yourself in a top players position. Sign last summer for Moyes or wait a year and see how he does, so given what we are seeing which top player will sign either in a January or next summer? The CEO comments in May about how good the team was, in his opinion, showed an arrogance that has been running through the whole changeover and the club in recent years. The we won the league by 11 points which would make us invulnerable and the winning would just continue was arrogance.
A few of us were saying this in May and May is where I made a major decision. After many years as a season ticket holder I gave it up and haven't been this season. I am no fair weather fan so it was a heart breaker to do that. However I looked at where the club are with the owners and truly felt we, the fans, were being bled dry and that the money I paid was not going to strengthen the team but to line the asset value for the owners. I strongly suspected the owners would not buy well in summer despite the usual hints and rumours of big signings and was proved right but it was the appointment of Moyes that I felt was a backward step and having supported through the turmoil of the late sixties and early seventies I felt the appointment meant we were heading that way again. I also felt so strongly that I have asked family not to buy me any Manchester United goods until such time I see the owners invest properly in the club as I do not want to contribute one penny to their funds. I hope Moyes succeeds but the lack of investment in recent years will limit his chances as will his lack of winning experience and low profile in attracting the best players. I think things would have been so different had the owners invested in quality players and a quality manager, for example the arrival of Klopp would have fired us forward but even if we had the start we have had we would know he could turn things around but with Moyes we don't know that.
I have supported through thick and thin but I will not be ripped off and in May I felt the arrogance of the club and it's owners had gone too far. Moyes is a decent man but so was Dave Sexton, so it is time for the owners to sort out the finances or sell and for the club to have real ambition, instead of looking up to a few European super powers we should look to be one but not with these owners and very unlikely with Moyes.

Well said.

The owners treat the club like a business but bank on the fact that supporters don't. If this was any other business and the owners were pumping out a shoddy product to increase profits their customer base would evaporate.

The only way to get the message across to the Glazers is to stop giving them money. On the other hand, I suspect that if the club's profit margins dwindle they will reinvest even less back into the first team.

We support the club because it is part of our communities and our lives. They exploit our support for their own gain. They only way to protest this is to show them that we are no longer willing to line their pockets unless they put our money where we want it to go, into the Manchester United team.

Good post redman same situation here followed united since 1965 let my ticket go this year for same reason

20 Oct 2013 10:20:45
I know everybody is split on the new manager but as a united supporter for nearly 40 years I've seen the bad times aswell as the good times and I truly believe we have to let the manager go, he has no track record, he's just too negative in everything he does, and let's face it he wasn't the original 1st choice for the job contrary to what has been said, we have class players sat on the bench every week and not using them, {zaha, hernandes, kagawa} he's still picking nani and welbeck and giggs, he really doesn't have a clue, he is going to make our great club into a laughing stock, our football is now boring and defensive, so please the powers that be get rid of him now before it's too late, I love our club with a passion like the rest of you but I feel it's going to die with this fella in charge.

When you say he's going to make our club into a laughing stock, I think he already has! And if we don't get rid now, we'll end up in real trouble.
Let the owners admit to their mistake or shall I say their penny pinching in trying to recruit a loser as a manger.
If we don't act now, we will badly regret it.

20 Oct 2013 09:33:30
I am getting sick to death with all the DM slagging off bad result yesterday strange substitutions but how many times have we pulled it out of the bag like southampton did yesterday
course its a strange feeling at present no SAF to guide us now its all new once we get a couple of good results it will click into place
another thing would finishing outside the top 4 actualy b a good thing the players would hopefully see then that we have been lucky with an average team and invest in some world class players to go with the youngsters coming through get rid of the redwood and start looking forward to next year.

20 Oct 2013 11:30:30
How do you propose we bring in "world class" players if we are not in CL?

If we finish outside top4 we will only be able to attract mediocre players unless we pay well over the odds for top talent.

You should have said maybe/hopefully we will sack DM and bring in a better manager.

Why we didn't go for Klopp amazes me. IMO get rid of Moyes in May, therefore scrapping this season and start to build next year with an astute, entertaining manager in Klopp.

Its not just ONE bad result though is it?
Its been one poor display after another with poor selection and tactics week after week.
Would it be a good thing to finish outside the top 4? are you being serious? It would make them invest in world class players? what world class players will sign for a club not playing UCL football? more likely is we have to sell rooney, DDG or adnan to cover our losses and replace them with more average players. that's the reality of what could happen if things aren't fixed soon

20 Oct 2013 07:30:29
How about playing Jones in midfield with Vidic and Evans as CBs. Jones would add some bite to our midfield until we could bring someone else in. I've often thought that we play better when Jones is in midfield and short term this could help us win games and build confidence and then hopefully come January buy some quality players.

We need to give Moyes some time and back him during the transfer window this January and next summer. I think we've been so used to winning and being one of the top teams for so long under SAF that we forget that it's not easy to keep winning especially with a new manager and a squad that has aging players. Yes Moys may make strange defensive subs but SAF was guilty for that too.

Is our midfield missing bite or creativity

20 Oct 2013 11:07:30
Y did we buy Fellaini then?. to add some physical mobility. he has turned out to be the worst signing ever.

20 Oct 2013 05:48:32
First of all, to those who think we have the biggest club from a turnover/revenue point of view, we do not. Real Madrid and Barcelona both generate more than us by 100m Euros. Their average salary per first team player is also approx 20% more than us. Man City's average pay is now 30% more than United. We have also been losing more of our cash flow to financing costs than any other club.

Secondly, no one thinks we have a divine right to win anything. We just want the success, or, if not that, at least an exciting style to continue. When things are going badly we like complaining! (And thank you Editors for providing us with a forum to do so). When we complain or express our reservations about the direction the club is headed, or whether the manager is up to the task, it doesn't make us fair weather supporters. (I've supported them since 1961 and always will).

SAF made a good short term purchase in RVP and managed to get one more EPL title, but, frankly, it looks like he squeezed the last drop out of the toothpaste tube. Other than possibly de Gea one could argue that United haven't made one great long term signing since Ronaldo left. So, as a result, poor old Moyes got handed an empty tube. Between the Board's bad planning and his own dithering and uncertainty, he's now stuck with it. It's no wonder then that the club seems to be going through a bad morning breath moment.

19 Oct 2013 23:59:47
I agree with a lot of the posts on here. We need to get behind the right manager. Give the right manager time. Give the right manager who has a track record of delivering success time to shape his team.
Sadly Moyes is not this man. I keep making these posts because he keeps f"""""g things up!

Your a disgrace you are not giving David Moyes a chance,
we need a new midfield and a clear out and it takes time, you have obviously not supported the team during the lean times and you don't realise that he was left with a re building job after SAF did not address our obvious short comings over the past three years
We may have go accept an average season to get the players needed to go again next season,
we have no devine right to win trophies every season but we will get there with the new manager
ARB

My what is a disgrace? Good for you if you think DM is the right man for the job. Personally I don't and never have. Tell me this. what justifies your blind faith in him? What have you seen in him that makes you think he's going to turn us back into the formidable force we once were or are you saying we have no right to accept that? If that is the case then it's you who are the disgrace.and FYI I've supported United since the late 70's so I've seen my share of mediocrity hence my reluctance to go back there!

ARB, moyes didn't come from mars he should have known our players abilities already as a rival manager for over 10yrs.
Thats just nonsense and doesn't excuse poor team selection, tactics and performances does it? there's plenty of managers who have gone to new clubs this summer who aren't struggling as badly as we are and we were the champions!
Iv never seen anybody on here claim that we do have a god given right to win things and of course we don't but as fans we have a right to expect more than we've seen so far don't we?
I do remember what it was like pre-SAF but the club is nothing like it was then but the performances under moyes are similar if not worse. Moyes seems to have a midtable mentality and that needs to change quickly IMO. A competent manager would realise our performances have been poor and change things but he sticks to 4-4-2 and refuses to try something different and game after game goes by and we drop more and more points against teams we shouldn't be.
Its not good enough at all in every aspect of management moyes has failed. So far.

Unitedred71 and the rest of the Armageddon Crew

You need to let the booze work itself out of your system and calm down.


Firstly I never had us for winning this year and believed we would have a fight on our hands to finish in the top 4 and got massive grief for it when I posted many weeks ago and still believe the same to be true.

Whilst you guys are all quick to want to hang the manager, why not the players. After all they are the ones on the pitch and they are the ones that have the most influence on the game.

I do agree his substitution of giggs for Nani was odd but then again we had no midfielders on the bench as Valencia just got back from 2 grueling wc qualifiers and Anderson is ether injured or just not fit. Funny enough I posted this yesterday the minute the team sheet came out but never got posted by the moderator and said we might struggle with defensive subs if trying to protect a lead.

Did not see anything wrong with Rooney going off for smalling and recommend you watch Mourinho, Ancelloti, Klop, Ferguson and whoever else that you lot rate and they do/did it all the time. Mourinho started defensive subbing yesterday with 25 minutes to go when they led 2-1. It just happens that they are very effective in counter attacking and ended up scoring 2 more when trying to protect their lead.

Southampton are a difficult team for anyone and I am as gutted as the rest of you for not getting 3 points, but the overreaction is unbelievable.

If I was honest my only concern with Moyes is the signing of Fellaini and what I will judge him on is his next few signings but to blame him for everything under the sun is bit childish.

I think the players are more culpable than the manager and guys like Welbeck, Anderson, Buttner are a joke and need to get moved on and will never be good enough and he needs time to set up his stall as he was given a lot of luggage by SAF.

Those who criticize him would have been up in arms had he come in and decided to offload a bunch of players as no matter how average/poor some of our players are, people here still rate these guys and for some reason think they will come good.

I remember last year everyone thought we needed just a few tweaks and evolution as some called it, this team needs to be gutted come this summer and 5 to 6 players sent packing IMO and what he buys and how play thereafter will be the true test of DM as a manager.

I also did not see the lean years, but I fully agree with ARB, when you lose players of the quality of Scholes and Giggs, Rio and Evra reaching the end of thier magnificent careers.
Also 4 or 5 signings(made before Moyes) are just not good enough, the scale of the rebuilding needed is huge.

I don't watch any youth games ( with me living in Scotland) so have no idea what is coming through. Great to see Januzaj sign a 5 year contract.

The 2 things that worry me most was our absolute debacle in the summer transfer market, will this continue. We need to realise that market forces set transfer prices, sadly not Man. U. unfortunately and act accordingly. Will the Glazers sanction the huge transfer budget I believe we need? Secondly, and very worrying, we don't seem to be playing as a team at the moment.

ARB. no one should be labeled a 'disgrace' for voicing their opinion. So calm down please.
Unitedred71 has a point, the fact that we should have got someone with the right credentials to manage 'the biggest' club in the world.
Moyes is a decent guy, but he's totally out of his depth. He's also always advocated playing defensive football. Unfortunately, this is not the United way and hope never will be.
Somehow, I think it is dawning on everyone now that Moyes is not going to change his methods or his tactics. Why? Because he doesn't know how to.
United had to get one of the top managers to fill saf boots, a man with 11 years with not a single trophy, one match in Europe, should never have been considered.

ARB, it isn't about winning trophies this season as most of us will accept that we won't.

The key point this year is top 4, full stop, and at the moment we can't see any indication that this will be achieved.

Even winning the league last season whilst we were the most consistent team over the season, I certainly didn't feel that we were the best team in the league and that refreshing the team with top quality was required to keep us competitive and moving forward.

For whatever reason that didn't happen and we are paying the price for this now.

Fast forward this to summer of next year and if we don't qualify what makes you think we are the most attractive proposition for top players without CL football when we had it this year and couldn't attract players of quality.

I will support DM and the club but let's not be blind to what is happening we are struggling at the moment (that may change) but we need serious changes in playing staff, need to play more attractive quicker football and let's get ready in the short term for a season without CL because this is the way it is going.

Shahram,

If you agreed with the smalling substitution you aren't the united fan I thought you were. I don't care if all them other managers would do that, we are Manchester United, we defend a 1-0 lead by making it a 2-0 lead, it's in our DNA and moyes needs to learn quick.

Shahram,
the 'armageddon crew' as you call us have every right to be concerned.
Tactics and team selection stops with the manager not the players as does the inability to fix obvious problems during the transfer window.
The players aren't performing but why?
after the city game the 'armageddon crew' were assured that we would press on after our difficult start. It hasn't happened.
we have not improved one bit since day one and are falling further behind each week.
I didn't expect the title this season but I expected transition and were going backwards quickly instead. the emergence of adnan is one bright spot but moyes has failed at everything so far IMO from transfers to team selection and even press interviews he looked badly inadequate. You could excuse these failings from an inexperienced boss but not from someone with over 10yrs EPL experience.
These next few signings that you're going to judge him after? who do you think theyl be because failiure to finish top 4 would seriously limit the quality of players we can attract not to mention the £50m UCL prize money wed lose. our debt is managed and our budget is set based on UCL qualification so if we fail to do that then expect rooney, DDG and even adnan to be up for grabs to make up the losses. Armageddon? certainly not but definately a possible scenario for the 'blind faith crew', like yourself to ponder.

GDS2

You are quite unique in how not too long ago you thought we would win the league and this is some great team and the rest of us where off our head for not being as optimistic as you.

I never agreed with you or Sydney on how great this team and squad is firmly believe it is a player issue rather than a manager issue.

Making a defensive substitution with 5 minutes to go and leading is some of the most basic things done in Football and I am not sure where you are getting this stuff about that is not the united way.

Whether Rooney was on the pitch or not the team got it wrong defending a corner and they scored, so Everyone get over it.

Someone pull up some stats on Fergie's substitutions when leading with 10 minutes to go, this is just now plain old silly stuff.

Even Mighty Real and Barca will bring on defensive players when trying to see out a lead and take guys like Neymar and Messi off.

Babyfaced

Finishing outside the top 4 financially hurts but not worried about players not coming as long as we pay the wages and transfer fees.

I do realize this years guidance is based on qualifications from the group stages in Cl and a 3rd place in the league, so no impact on this years estimated 120 million profit as long as we qualify from the CL group stage. We should have 200 million in cash come next summer unless we pay down a big chunk of the debt. BTW the money for 3rd place finish or even outside the top 4 is not that significant. If we do not finish in top 4 the impact will be in the next fiscal year and not current year.

There is also talk of the Owners potentially issuing another 300 million in stock, which I am hopeful it happens as long as they plan on retiring some of the debt with the proceeds.

If Rooney ends up going I hope people are not childish enough to believe it is because of our non-qualification for CL and more a Player wanting to leave.

Finally, I don't have blind faith and if anything been the most consistent in terms of not rating this team but also not in the camp of firing managers after 10 games.