Manchester United Banter Archive February 21 2019

21 Feb 2019 19:46:22
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new manager profile about, Quique Setien

22 Feb 2019 08:20:56
Good stuff ed. With all that in mind, it will be interesting to see how he gets on at Barca. With funds and the ability to change game from the bench.

{Ed001's Note - what do you mean? Barca wanted him but ended up extended Valverde's contract as they didn't get an agreement with him. I believe he is not ready to walk away from Real Betis as he took over only in the summer, however the info did come from Betis so might just be wishful thinking!}

22 Feb 2019 12:20:30
Thanks Ed001. Given the financial disparity between Barca, Real and Athletico (possibly even Sevilla) what do you think a realistic target is for Betis? I noticed they crashed out of the Europa League last night.

I've had a soft spot for Betis for years since the days Alfonso and Assuncao used to play there. Its really interesting to see him get the most out of players like Joaquin and Sergio Canales.

{Ed001's Note - realistic is European qualification, anything more is a pipe dream in the short term. Betis are the little team in Andalusia. They are doing well to qualify. In the long term they could possibly build something longer lasting but it would take years to get the fanbase, as they are miles behind Sevilla.}

22 Feb 2019 12:42:49
Remember when they broke the record for denilson?

22 Feb 2019 16:08:00
Sorry ed. I thought ed002 had said Barcelona had zoned in on him for the job.

{Ed001's Note - they did but then extended with Valverde when they didn't get him.}

21 Feb 2019 16:18:49
There's a question I want to pose to everyone on the site.

Now the perceived idea is that it is harder to manage a top club than a club lower down the football pyramid. The basis for this idea is the pressure and expectations are higher.

But is that true? Is it really harder to get better quality players with better facilities and more resources to play better?

Is there less pressure in avoiding relegation on a shoe string? Or trying to clamber to the top of a lower league to gain promotion to the elite level?

Ole struggled to get the Cardiff players to play the kind of football he wanted them. Was it just that the style he was trying to get them to play was beyond their capabilities? Yet at United he has made managing our club look fairly simple and straightforward.

I would have thought that the reality is that if you can't get some of the best players in the world, with world class facilities and huge amounts of resources to play well then you are a poor manager. Whereas, if you can get a side of average players to improve and play beyond their capabilities with limited resources and poor facilities then you are a great manager.

Surely then you can only prove that at a club without world class players and facilities.

Is it not easier to succeed at a club that has everything required to give you the best platform for success?

21 Feb 2019 16:36:00
Are you making the point that Ole isn't a good manager because he struggled in his first job with a relegation battling team of average players and an idiot chairman?

Can twist that argument on its head and say certain managers aren't that good because they've only ever managed clubs that that has everything required to give you the best platform for success?

21 Feb 2019 16:55:38
Mort, I'm not saying Ole is a bad manager. I think he is a good manager. What I'm trying to ask is can it be easier to succeed at a top club than a club at a lower level?

Absolutely you can look at some managers and ask would they have been as successful if they were at clubs without the facilities, resources and abundance of world class talent. Most will look at Pep who is arguably the best manager in the world at the moment. But on a serious note could he save Fulham from relegation? Would his style, his philosophy transfer to those players? How much could be improve those players? Could he get them playing like his Barcelona or City team without the likes of Messi, Xavi, Silva and Delete Bruyne?

21 Feb 2019 17:24:19
It's a tricky question to answer shappy . Raffa at Newcastle is probs currently the best example of a high profile manager with previous success but is now at a club near the bottom that duznt spend much . It's difficult to judge him, he keeps them up and had a good final league position last season but constantly seems to be in a relegation battle, would Newcastle be relegated without him or would all the firefighting managers big Sam, Hughes ect manage the same thing .

21 Feb 2019 17:58:12
I think it’s easier to manage at the top level. You have money and you know everything about all the top players but in the lower leagues you know virtually nothing about the players.

21 Feb 2019 18:01:25
Ranieri couldn't do it with unlimited funds at Chelsea but won the league with Leicester.
I don't think there is an answer to your question that's factual most answers are and will be totally subjective.
Howe does ok at bournmouth but would he do well at a big club.
A lit depends on timing luck and momentum.

21 Feb 2019 19:47:55
Ranieri couldn't do it with unlimited funds at Chelsea? He had one season with Abramovich as owner and was sacked with the club finishing in 2nd place.

21 Feb 2019 19:53:52
Interesting question Shappy and very hard to answer.

If we're taking about Solskjear I think all the pieces of the jigsaw have fallen into place for him at Old Trafford. I agree with Ken sometimes timing and momentum is as important as anything else.

I think a large number of this current squad suit Solskjear's style like a hand in a glove.

He has the perfect attacking players to implement his system and in Pogba he has the mercurial figurehead capable of knitting it all together and providing the quality needed to win at the highest level.

I'm not sure Solskjear has the longevity and foresight to build team after team but I think he's more than capable of taking this current group of players forward.

He will look to build around De Gea, Lindelof, Shaw, Martial, Pogba, Lingard and Rashford. With a few quality additions who have the pace, energy and movement to complement his style of fast countering attacking football I think he is more than capable of winning trophies over the next few years.

21 Feb 2019 22:43:12
The alternative view is that Ole has built up years of experience managing our reserves, then going to Molde, then taking on a tough job like Cardiff (which Sit Alex told
Him not to) where he will have learned some tough lessons, then going back to Molde, then being given the Utd job where there is little to no pressure or expectation and a kind fixture list. It’s not like we have a new novice manager in charge here. All prior to this he was a legend for our club and knows exactly how it should be run.

21 Feb 2019 23:39:10
English football has a habit of writing managers off after one sacking. In any other business in the world, failure is all apart of learning. In Spain they often give their B team managers the first team job. They have no qualms about giving a manager lower down the league a top job, like Barcelona will do with Real Betis' manager at the end of the season.

English teams tend to blink very quickly when giving a manager a chance and then appoint the trusty Alerdyce, Pardew, Hodgson or Hughes or any other "firefighter" manager.

But in terms of what level should a potential manager take in my opinion should be based on what level they've played. Obviously there are the exceptions to this rule but learning your trade in League 2 isn't going to make you a better premier league manager and vice versa.

Ole has played most of his career at the top of world football competing for the top honours. He's worked with the best manager and players around at the time. He knows what it's like to be at a big club. Put him in charge of Cardiff who are struggling is alien to him. He said it himself he wanted them to play the kind of football that they technically couldn't, so he reverted to a more defensive style and it all went pear shaped.

Just look what a step up done to David Moyes. He done and said all the wrong things. He said he wanted to be like City in one of his interviews. The man just wasn't made for top level football. Again, it was alien to him.

Roy Keane is another example of how a world class player can't manage in the lower leagues. His expectations are too high and result in him falling out with players that can't play to his high standard. If Keane had of started at the top I would be very interested to see how he would have got on.

Ole seems to be bread for the top bracket of management. He says and does all the right things but there are also many other managers who given a top job would do just fine too.

21 Feb 2019 23:44:08
I think it depends on the managers background. If as a player he only played at a high level as a player then becomes a manager and goes to a lower league where he's not used to the standard of players, facilities etc then he may struggle. Take Roy Keane at Ipswich as an example. However if you have a manager who was a player at that level then he's more used to the standard. For example Eddie Howe at Bournemouth.

Regards Pep no I think he'd struggle at a Fulham.

22 Feb 2019 02:16:07
I think there are different levels of expectation and different pressures. For example, in Scotland the Old Firm carries more pressure than any other job in the country (possibly in Europe) . A manager at the top level is expected to win every game and in England has literally tens of millions of people analysing their every decision. Moreover, if you manage Cardiff you are expected to beat the teams around you at home. When you are the boss of Man Utd you are expected to beat everyone and win 90% of the games in style.

In summary, being a manager is bloody difficult and whilst having players like Pogba helps, the pressure of 100million fans expecting you to win every week must be gruelling.

22 Feb 2019 03:05:19
Based on people’s comments on a very complex situation with far too many variables. it will be interesting to see how Scholes fares at Oldham.

22 Feb 2019 05:21:58
Most of the managers needs some type of their players to get the club moving forward. Pep struggled in his first season and bought some players which suited his philosophy. What if he was in Arsenal with limited budget. I don't think so he would have made Arsenal like current City. Very few will tweek thier tactics suiting the players they have. Maybe Ole has tools now in United to get good results.

22 Feb 2019 10:10:24
Somebody may have said it but management style could be a big factor.

My opinion a manager that builds from the back with a lower team will struggle to get relegated (allardyce)
Whereas if a attacking coach came in they may struggle (ole at Cardiff)

And then the exact opposite for a top side, as top sides have the players to attack and score and sometimes worry about the base last.

22 Feb 2019 15:32:07
I think it also depends on what characters you have in the club, we’ve seen first hand how players down tools if they don’t like something. Look how our players performed first half of the season to now for example. Or how Chelsea players have multiple times. There’s too many factors for a straight answer to that question imo.

21 Feb 2019 12:18:12
Just a little follow up from yesterdays debate on Pogba. I don't necessarily want him sold, if he can maintain his current form sell such a player would look bad.

My issue is IF he wants to leave then it is in the clubs best interest to try and move him on, as he has shown previously that his form significantly drops when he is unhappy and he can be a disruptive influence.

We should also consider that his best form has come under Ole and in the system deployed by Ole. However, at the present time there are no guarantees that Ole will be here next season or that whoever is here will play a similar system/ tactics to what Ole does.

The current favourite is Pochettino who has never given a player a free role in any of his teams and demands hard work off the ball for his system to work. That system might not be suited to getting the best out of Pogba. Pochettino would need to inspire a kind of defensive work rate from Pogba that he as yet hasn't shown for any manager playing for any team.

If Pogba wants to stay and he is going to be committed and if Ole is going to get the job full time then obviously it makes sense to keep Pogba. However, if he doesn't want to be here or if the next manager is going to change the current system then it might be best to cash in on him and give him the move that he apparently wants.

21 Feb 2019 12:36:14
If the player wishes to leave then I certainly wouldn't stand in his way. The only problem is, can we get a fair price for him. In a transfer market where average players like Coutinho go for silly money and players that haven't achieved anything like SMS and Ruben Neves are quoted around £100 million. We can't roll over and have our tummies tickled.

We've historically been really poor when selling our players. If Pogba goes, then we have to get the right deal for United.

21 Feb 2019 12:44:51
Is this all him posturing for a pay rise? Ronaldo, Ramos and so on used to do this every summer. With De Gea, Rasher and other contracts being bandied about he just fancies a few more quid too?

{Ed002's Note - No.}

21 Feb 2019 14:09:08
Exactly Mumbles. We have on far too many occasions come off worst when selling players. Unfortunately I think we will be lucky to get our money back as realistically there are only a few clubs who could sign him, even fewer who can afford the wages/ agents fee it will cost and fewer again who actually have a need for a player like him.

So we have very little wiggle room and would certainly find it hard to start a bidding war.

That said with his current form his value surely must be as high as possible, especially when considering he was a world cup winner as little as 8 months ago.

If and I say if he still wants to push to leave then now surely must be the best moment to maximise our return. If we force him to stay and that affects his form then his asset value will only drop during next season.

Personally I would stay as far away from Mino Riola's clients as possible. They have a habit of becoming "unhappy" every couple of years.

21 Feb 2019 15:39:19
If Pogba wants to leave this summer then we must get rid of him.

He is playing well now and won the World Cup last summer and so his stock will be high.
Only a few clubs can afford the transfer fees and wages but we could sort this out with players plus cash being included in the deal. Trading with Barcelona, Madrid, PSG or Juve in this manner could be acceptable to all parties.

With the number of assists and goals he is scoring his stock will be high.

We just need Ed and whoever is the permanent manager to dig in on any deal until the end.
This is why we need a DoF as he can deal with these situations and thus remove friction between the Head Coach and player plus do a better job than our CEO.

His agent is a nightmare and you hit the nail on the head Shappey. It’s not worth his clients staying put for 10 years. He earns more by moving them on.
UEFA and FIFA need to get together to fully regulate agent payments it should be a percentage of a transfer fee and then capped off at a value. IMO it is crazy to read (if it’s true) that a buying club has to pay £10M to an agent as part of a deal.

{Ed002's Note - If Pogba were to leave in the summer Manchester United will be able to save on the total amount payable to his agent reducing it to around £33M in total. It is nothing to do with UEFA or FIFA - it was Manchester United who entered in to such an agreement.}}

21 Feb 2019 16:06:33
My prediction is he won't move this summer. I think we'll appoint Ole as manager and he'll look to build the team
around Pogba. I think the Club will work hard to get him to sign a new contract over the next 12 months.

Things change quickly in football. He's probably considering his options like all players. He probably wouldn't be against moving to Barcelona or Real (like most players) but I don't see him forcing a move. If he won't sign a new contract then this is a debate for next summer.

A lot can happen in the next 12 months but if he can replicate this form over an entire season there is absolutely no doubt we'll have the best attacking midfielder in the world. In my opinion you don't let world class talent just walk out of the door without a fight.

{Ed002's Note - He has approached Juventus.}

21 Feb 2019 16:42:56
Even with player swaps we'd still end up getting a bad deal. For example the only players I'd take from PSG are Mbappe or Marquinos. I don't see PSG putting up Mbappe as part of a deal. There's no one ican think of at Juventus that I'd be willing to take in part ex. And at Madrid or Barcelona there's only the obvious names who most likely they wouldn't look to exchange. If we end up getting someone like Douglas Costa and a knocked down fee I'd feel like we'd been ripped off.

21 Feb 2019 16:43:39
Ok thanks Ed002 but Juventus would still have to meet Utd's valuation which I presume must be astronomical. Whilst he might be open to a move I just don't think he'll try to force one and there is a big difference.

I would imagine most agents speak to representatives of other Clubs to see what options are out there and I still call this considering his options rather than wanting to leave. (Semantics maybe) .

Other posters have suggested that Pogba may down tools if he doesn't get a move. I don't agree with this. I think that notion is a touch disrespectful and not based on fact. Players aren't fans, they are professional sportsmen. It doesn't matter to me if a player secretly harbours fantasies of playing for another Club. What matters to me is that they perform on the pitch.

Pogba has proven over the last few months that if he's played in the correct position and given the correct role he can excel and propel this team to another level. Like I said previously we should not let world class talent leave the Club without a fight.

Martial was set to leave he's now signed a new contact. I'm not convinced the Club will entertain any offers this summer unless its somewhere approaching the transfer record. I fully expect Pogba to be a Utd player next season and for the Club to offer him a new contract in the coming months. If he won't sign a move next summer is much more likely in my opinion.

{Ed002's Note - He (not just his agent) should not be speaking to Juventus if he doesn't want a move then. I am not aware of any plans to "down tools" but some clubs won't stand in the way of players wanting out. Certainly Manchester United could price him out a move and keep him. Perhaps if the club was run half decently and not as what is now a dictatorship under Woodward then they would be much better off.}

21 Feb 2019 16:49:06
Ed002. He may well have approached juve. But its up to juve to come up with an acceptable offer to united. If they can't do that then i'm assuming there will be no sale.

{Ed002's Note - You are all in an extremely naïve place right now. If they can persuade him to stay then fine, no doubt he will sign a new contract then all will be well. But as it stands he wants to leave - if Manchester United want to block that by pricing him out of a move or rejecting all offers then there is a risk that the situaon can be difficult. Or they could be practical, take the Costa plus cash offer and then look to bringing in Saul Niguez or perhaps look again to Miralem Pjanic or Verratti?}

21 Feb 2019 17:52:16
DL1B - SAf almost piggy backed him out the door previously and yes he was younger but still showed he had talent.

Mort - Rodrigo Bentancur, dybala, sandro, costa, Miralem Pjanic
João Cancelo, Daniele Rugani, Federico Bernardeschi - anyone could be at the very least a squad improvement on members of our squad with us surely losing a few?
Darmian, valencia, rojo, jones, possibly bailey, possibly pogba, mctominay lukaku and sanchez. None are safe and obviously there's the possibility of loans in the case of TFM pereira and Mctominay. Squads change all the time and as been debated on here loads, none of the above are safe from the axe. i reckon 4 ins and 5 outs.

21 Feb 2019 18:04:43
I don't think i'm in a naive place at all if you read my outstrips posts on this in last 24 hours ed 002 as I've said exactly same as you.
However if juve come in with a low ball or unacceptable bid then its different.

21 Feb 2019 18:09:36
Ed, get your myself that DOF position. You've just given the perfect scenario.

Although, I do worry about Costa and his professionalism.

21 Feb 2019 18:48:51
Pogba will leave and he should leave. He will stsrt crying and act like a baby if he doesn't get on well with the new manager.

I agree with ed. Sell pogba, be practical and buy a player that wants to wear the red shirt.

{Ed004's Note - I disagree. You look to keep your best players and build around them. If he has an issue with our next manager well then revise his situation again then. No point assuming he will because he has had a disagreement with a manager who has fallen out with stars such as Hazard, Ronaldo, Ramos etc and more the past few seasons. Under an attacking manager that gets along with his team hes been a revolation. Saul is a good player but ive no doubt Pogba is a better player. Itll probably cost us more to start next season with Saul and Costa then it would just signing Costa. Thats not a smart move imo. Id be spending the next few months tying to get De Gea, Lindelof, Pogba, Herrera and Rashford to sign new contracts as them alongside Shaw and Martial should be who we build our side around}

21 Feb 2019 19:43:13
I agree we should keep a happy Pogba with no intention to move or hawk himself around to Juve but if he isn't fully committed to United then i reckon he should go.

The questions we should ask is:

Should we give Pogba a new contract and keeping him against his wishes?

Dont you thnk Pogba is a risky player to keep as his mood changes like the english weather?

What if he decides in 2 years time he wants to move again, Do you think it will be wise for us to look for a midfielder in 2 years instead of resolving the issue now?

I just don't think it would be wise to build team around Pogba because if the next permananent manager isn't successful in delivering titles then Pogba will look to move again based on his previous actions.

21 Feb 2019 19:50:04
Ed002 I know that agent fees have nothing to do with UEFA and FIFA.
The point I was making is that they govern the game that millions love and for years the average fan does not have a good opinion regarding agents in the game and the money that flows out through these channels.
Is it not possible for these bodies to get together and then to drive this through all the FA’s regarding a clear system of agents fees.
No problem in an agent earning money through representing a player and taking % from all their sponsorships, endorsements and earnings.
However a % with a maximum cap would be a better way of either slightly reducing transfer fees or ensuring that the majority of the money passes between clubs.
Perhaps just a pipe dream!

{Ed002's Note - The players can sign any contract that they agree to with an agent - they are not forced to sign them. Clubs need not sign players who are registered with specific agents should they not wish to - Manchester United signed Pogba because they wanted to and met the financial requirements of the agent. It is nothing to do with the authorities.}

21 Feb 2019 20:37:01
I can remember a year or two ago ed002 suggesting we weren't perceived as the sharpest tools in the box at negotiations, I was happy when we appeared to baulk at the morata fee but since then in hindsight we have still appeared to over pay on some players we have got . Just to ask are we still perceived as not the greatest of negotiators by other clubs .

21 Feb 2019 21:32:42
Ed004 - At last some sense completely agree.

{Ed004's Note - You also have to look at it from Pogbas side as well. Hes constantly criticised by English media for anything he does, was being offered around by the club, being asked to play a role that doesnt suit him or that he doesnt enjoy and had a disastrous relationship with a coach that didnt appear to be going anywhere. Footballers careers are very short...}

21 Feb 2019 22:31:26
All well and good ed. but selling ypurself to juve? Come on. just have a word with ole, see how you can get past it

But no, pogba wants to go. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

You don't want to be here, then get out of the club, simple.

22 Feb 2019 06:43:18
Hopefully Ole or the new manager can convince him to stay.
Martial wanted out but has stayed and is back to his best.
Pogba himself will see the progress in the side.

Personally I feel, Juventus will have a slide in 2 years.
They have too many players above 30 or near it like Cristiano, Mandzukic, Bonnuci, Chellini, Matuidi.
It is difficult to replace players of that calibre.

21 Feb 2019 09:26:13
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new article entitled, Liverpool v Bayern Munich - A Liverpool Perspective