Manchester United Banter Archive November 21 2013

21 Nov 2013 18:37:52
hi all, in response to the left back Q Shappy, If we can't get Baines in Jan we should move for santon, he is very 2 footed which provides better quality cover on the right for the very fragile rafa and on the left he is imo very good. contrao is poor defensively and a diver and I don't think he would be strong enough physically. also I think bertrand from chelski is a great option if they want shaw. he was in CL winning semi and final team. Ken

Believe it or not I had bertrand rnd my house the other day, I can honestly say there is no way he would join, he is very happy and settled now

Oooh, get you CTR, name dropping. ;)

Haha its a long story, (one day me and Vida will tell u about it!) Damn there I go again! :-)

21 Nov 2013 11:48:42
The latest one that seems to be doing the rounds on this site is that Manchester United fans have become greedy and arrogant because they expect the club to sign top class players. Apparently we aren't happy signing players that "significantly" improve our team because we're obsessed with "world class" players. As bettywhatever claims, "We have been spoiled over the last 20 years, and many of our fan have become football snobs."

So have we become football snobs in demanding Gundogan and Koke instead accepting players like Dembele and Cabaye? Have we really been spoilt by top quality players?

Actually nothing is further from the truth. In the last 5 transfer windows, since we sold Ronaldo, we have signed a grand total of 3 players who would comfortably make it into our best 11: De Gea, RVP and Valencia (and he only makes it because our other options are so weak). During the last 5 seasons we have primalrily invested in young players like Jones and Smalling, and while it is important to build for the future, we have allowed our team become stagnant and need an injection of immediate quality if we don't want to fall behind in the league and in Europe.

Last season we signed RVP and this showed us the value of buying a top class player on top of his game. This year we chased top players like Cesc but ultimately ended up vastly overspending for a squad player who is struggling to adjust to our game. Herrera is already plan B, so if we move on to plan C or D then we will not be signing a player capable of taking us to the next level. We have ageing key players, an accumulation of dross like Anderson, Nani and Young on our bench, and we have become completely reliant on Rooney and RVP for attacking impetus. Demanding top class signings isn't being a football snob, it is recognising that if we don't add some quality to the first team, then we are in danger of repeating Liverpool's mistakes.

If we are unable to sign top players, then instead of looking toward lesser options we should be asking why. Season after season the club posts record profits, so why do we seem incapable of enticing top talent to the club. We should be bring in top players, not because of a sense of entitlement, but because that is what the biggest clubs in the world do year after year. If people are happy allowing United slip further and further behind the world's best, then by all means celebrate the failing transfer policies implemented during the last few years. But if the club wants to remain winning then we cannot accept anything less that genuine quality.

Danny, my bit about the "football snobs" is not because I don't think we should want to sign the best players in the world. I totally agree that we should be looking at the best. The point I was trying to make is that too many on here dismiss good players out of hand simply because they are not "world class" ( in their opinions. )
I do want us to sign top players, we should sign top players. I was not necessarily championing Dembele in particular, just saying that there are a lot more players out there who would improve our poor midfeld. If we want a genuine top class midfield that can challenge the best teams in the EPL and in Europe then in all honesty we need at least 3 new players (2 central and at least one wide player), plus the obvious left back. If we should only look at signing the very top players, that means we need to sign 4 "world class" players. That simply is not going to happen.
As I said, there are (in my opinion at least) lots of very good players around that can improve us. They may be a little bit behind the Ronaldo's and Messi's of this world but they are much better than we have. I don't want to criticise anyone for being ambitious in our targets, because that would be wrong. I just think a bit of realism is needed.

Betty
I haven't seen any posts saying we should buy 5/6 wc players.
Most fans recognize that we have a good squad but we need a bit of extra quality
Buying more squad players will not help us make the step and close the gap between ourselves and munich.
It's not just a case of signing a wc because we are snobs it's the fact it will take a real top quality cm to improve us .
I think Danny sums it up very well.

21 Nov 2013 13:49:23
I think their both right. We do need class but we have to face reality, we don't have City's money or the lure of Madrid. We all know we need four signings but they can't or won't all be in the 30 million bracket. And some people on here have been dismissive of players who don't come with this 30 million price tag. Remember how much vidic and evra cost. Or Ronaldo. Or Carrick. We need quality but some people need to see the facts, we unlikely to spend 100 million in a single window.

Jred, maybe I don't get my point across very well. I didn't claim that anyone said we need to sign 5/6 world class players, just that if only world class is good enough then any signing we make needs to be of that standard. I am just eluding to the fact that too many players are dismissed as "not United quality" just because they are not in the very top bracket in world football. Like you said yourself we need that extra bit of quality. Our midfield is poor and has been for a long time. If we cannot get the likes of Gundogan or Vidal then what do we do? Go another 5 years without signing a midfielder?
Also I think that your statement "it will take a real top quality cm to improve us" is overstating the standard of players we already have. In an ideal world , and United had a genuine top class midfield I don't think there is one player already in our squad that would get into that starting XI (I'm including wide players in there as well). Januzaj is the exception, but he is still an emerging talent with the potential to go to the very top.
In our most successful period under SAF, how many world class players did we sign? You could count them on one hand and have fingers to spare. Like I said at the beginning of this topic, to move forwards, we need to sign players better than we already have. If we can get the very best then great, but if we can't get those top, top players we have to look elsewhere or we will get left even further behind than we already are.

Both sets of fans are right.

On the one hand - we are Manchester United and should be targeting the best to improve our starting 11.

On the other hand, anyone with a pair of eyes can see that we are STRUGGLING to attract the best - so what do we do? Do we sign a good player, or nobody at all?

Reality is, financially, we cannot compete with the big guns or those clubs with sugar daddies. We are also nowhere near as attractive a destination for foreign players as Spain.

So if you want to see us stubbornly refuse to sign anyone if we can't get the best, get ready for a decline. because our midfield will continue to deteriorate (and other positions) while we continue to pass up players who aren't considered world-class.

Cutting off our nose to spite our face, if you like.

Red sky
This is where we differ I believe we can compete with the big boys I think the money is there.
Rather than settle for second best I think the owners and co should get there act together

Yeah that seems about ryt

Jred

I hope you're right, but I remain to be convinced. If we had that sort of money, I don't think we would've been bidding less for Fabregas than Barca bought him for. Or pulling out the Herrera deal at the final minute, because we didn't agree with a buy-out clause we were fully aware of from day one.

My concern is, the likes of Gundogan are going to wanted by ALL of the top teams. And I just think the likes RM and Barca WILL offer that extra £5million that makes us pull back and re-assess.

If we can't get world-class, we still need class, and our midfield doesn't have that right now. Once again, I'm not saying we should sign Dembele.

Personally, after he ripped us a new one, I think we should've been less miserly and offered more than £5million. then we wouldn't have needed to spend £30million on Fellaini this summer. Just my view, I'm not bothered about signing him now but we need SOMEONE, most likely in the summer.

Red sky
The money is there whether the owners and co are prepared to spend big on one player is a different matter.
I don't think we should settle for second best we should ask why a team with our resources and history are struggling to sign the top players

It's a damning indictment of how well the Glazer's have done in lowering our expectations when people start touting Dembele as the best we can do.

Nobody is saying that we should be signing Messi or Ronaldo, but if we want to keep winning trophies then we should be competing for players like Gundogan, Koke and Herrera. These players should not be beyond us, and if they are then we are in trouble. The top teams will always be in for top players, that's why they are top teams. And if we can't compete against them for the best players, we will simply not remain one of the best clubs.

People really need to drop the 'we can't compete with sugar daddies' line too. Bayern have shown over the last five years that a well run club can still attract top players if they pick their targets wisely and pay big fees for the targets they select. We have not gone down the Bayern rout despite having far bigger profits than them. The reason for this is that the owners have thus far refused to invest in quality players. They have money at their disposal, but they choose not to spend it.

To put this into perspective: Dembele is the fourth choice cm, at the fifth best club in the EPL. He will cost at least £20m, so he isn't even cheap. If an overpriced midfielder who can't get his game for a side that isn't good enough to make the champions league is the best we can do, then the club's current reality is bleak.

The real question is for the owners, do they want to invest in their business at the level needed? Capital investment in a business is vital to keep the business at a level or move it forward. Whether the money is there or not is open to what is in the accounts or whether they would be prepared to borrow beyond that to improve the playing squad but the big question is are they willing to spend it? They didn't in summer at the level needed nor in recent years and my concern remains that their US "franchise" in Tampa is the model they want. Tampa have suffered from a lack of investment so why should we expect preferential treatment from the owners?

What drives the Glazers, is it glory or profit on the increased value of their asset, do they think it will all keep going by investing in ordinary players whilst sponsors roll in, for now at least.

As I said every business needs to reinvest in itself, it's fundamental but ordinary input will result in ordinary output. Yesterday I was talking to someone who took his son recently and independent to my opinion he said there was nothing special in our team. That is the point, special. We are a special team with a special history yet people want ordinary. The top teams do not accept ordinary but we are supposed to. We had ordinary for long enough and now need top quality, not half a team but at least two or three.

Following this debate with interest.

Firstly, we need to replace a significant number of players in the next couple of years. Anderson, Evra, Nani, Valencia, Ferdinand, Giggs and Young need to go at the end of the season, so that´s 7.

Plus we´ve got Vidic, Carrick and RVP who are the wrong side of 30 which makes a total of 10. I´m not saying we sell these three but they won´t be able to start every game and will lose some sharpness with age.

Bringing in ten new players over a couple of seasons is a complete squad overhaul in anyone´s book.

Regarding the quality of player we should be signing, I don´t see any reason we should accept any lesser quality than Real, Barca or Bayern would, even as squad players. Would someone like Dembele get in the squad of any of the aforementioned teams? Exactly, so why waste money, plus squad places on those who aren´t good enough to compete with the very best?

Ultimately it all comes down to money. If you want the top players you have to make the players and their clubs an offer they can´t refuse.

For example, did Woodward really think 30 million would be enough to buy fabragas? If we offered Barca 45 million and the player 250k a week then we at least give them a serious decision to make. And the Herrera debarcle? Faffing about over a few million quid then paying extra for a lesser player, even when Bilbao had named their price.

Basically the club needs to get real on what´s needed to compete at the top level in Europe instead of trying to make it happen on a shoestring. Like most things in life you get what you pay for and penny pinching is often just counter productive.

The money´s there, so as fans we should accept no less than the very best, especially when the club is happy to charge us top whack for tickets and merchandise. It works both ways.

Jred and Danny,

I'm on your side, lads. I want the best players in the world at OT. We SHOULD be going for Gundogan, Koke. if they leave this summer, and we don't show any interest, what would you guys think?

Would you be part of the 'we were never interested' crowd? If so, as you said, we need to question WHY we weren't interested. And this is a likely scenario. Both men will be available this summer, I reckon. And in high demand - meaning we need to flex our financial muscle if we have it.

So if we really are in the market for the best, we should surely be taking the fight to our rivals to sign them. Not quibbling over a few million here and there.

We'll see in summer 2014 just what the future holds for us. Was summer 2013 a mere blip, or is that kind of quibbling and penny-pinching going to be the norm going forward.

This debate is being taken completely out of context now because some are either not reading the posts properly, or are deliberately misinterpreting them to strengthen their own arguments. Eg nobody ever said that Dembele is the best we can expect. They has never even been suggested.

Danny, so just because Gundogan Koke and Herrera are the flavour of the month at the minute we need to be signing these players. Then next year even if we signed these players people like yourself would be coming on here saying we need to sign the new flavour of the month players. It's a no win situation with some fans. Manchester United generally sign emerging talents and then try to turn them into great players. It sounds like you want us to be an English version of Real Madrid where they sign top footballers for the sake of it.

TR1, that´s exactly what I want. Manchester United to be as good as Real Madrid because we sign all the top footballers

22 Nov 2013 08:01:46
Andrew mate it may have escaped your attention but are you saying you would have rather won the two trophies Real Madrid have won in the last five years over the four league titles, champions league title and carling cup title we have won?

Tr1, are you serious?

How are these players flavour of the month? Gundogan has developed into a top class mid during the last three years and was a huge part of Dortmund's CL campaign. Koke emerged last season as one of the best young midfielders in la liga, and Herrera has been on United's radar for years. These are three examples if the standard of player United should be signing: full of potential and open to moving clubs. It's no surprise that top clubs are either looking or have looked at these players.

You're showing a lack of football knowledge if you think that signing top players is some kind of fad.

Tr1

You seem confused! Just read Danny's posts again mate.

Shappy, you make a good point as always but what I´m saying is that Real, Barca and Bayern, plus possibly some other clubs (Dortmund, Juventus, City?) have better teams and better squads than us because they are prepared to pay what it takes t get the top players when they are top players.

If you placed us in a mini division with these six clubs and played them many times each so each club had to utilise the whole squad, I wouldn´t fancy our chances.

I think we overachieved in the last few years because the domestic competition wasnt outstanding and because of the Fergie factor

23 Nov 2013 00:38:59
No doubt our transfer policy hasn't been what it should have been over the last 4/5 years. Is that due to Glazernomics or are we victims of our own success. But that is another debate alltogether. Lol.

In an ideal world we would work on the ideal that every summer we sign one top class player for our first team, one or two youngsters for the future and then promote one or two youngsters of our own. Bringing between 3-5 new faces into the squad. We shouldn't be signing squad players but our squad players should be made up of the youngsters we bring in and promote from within.

We shouldn't be signing players such as Buttner or Young, good solid players but neither have the talents to be first choice or were young enough to develop into first choice players. In effect they just take games away from other young talents thus stunting their development. We should have 16-18 players good enough for the first team every week, with 7-8 youngsters who are learning and can step in for cup games and lesser league games while learning to become first choice players.

That is the way Barca and Bayern do things and seeing as we haven't got a suger daddy like City or Chelsea then that is the way we should look to do our business. And let's be honest woyld you rather have Barca and Bayerns success or City and Chelseas?

We invested in our first team last season by signing RvP and look what it did for us. We should aim to bring in one world class player a year. And that way we wouldn't get into the situation where our manager questions the quality of our team by claiming we only have two world class players.

Totally agree Shappy.
We wouldn't even need to do that every summer, maybe every other summer.

My problem is, whenever a rival wants a player they get him. Price doesn't come into it - Bayern knew the route to success was to improve while they were ahead, and went and bought Goetze etc.

Of all the big teams, we're the only one that springs to mind (I'm sure there are others, and I'll be reminded as such) who can't seem to secure those top targets.

Shappy/Red Sky, you´re both dead right.

Now, because we haven´t been following those policies we´ve missed out on players we really need by penny pinching and we have some serious catching up to do to improve the overall quality of the squad.

IMO there's about 200 mill net spend required over the next two years to replace half the squad, unless we can bring through youth players who are up to the job (and I hope we do)

21 Nov 2013 09:28:57
Moving on from the midfield issue and the Dembele debate, the other area that needs investment in January is left back.

Baines would be great for a few years but he will cost a lot of money. Shaw looks a great prospect but he is going to Chelsea.

So if not those two who would you go for?

I'd go for either Ben Davies as he is used to the pace and physical nature of the Prem, and would help us maintain a british core to the squad.

Or i'd go for Ricardo Rodriguez who is solid defensively yet is still a constant threat going forward. He wouldn't cost mega money either so would enable us to spend other areas.

So who do you want?

What about Moreno whos apparently been scouted recently and Sandro of Porto, Willems? Just to throw a few more names in there.

I think the best EPL option besides the obvious Baines, etc. Would be Santon.

He's 22, has incredible experience, bombs forward incredibly well and he's not too bad defensively.

Okay, he's not the best LB defensively in world football and statistically not as good as Baines. For me though the experience he carries at 22 should make him at least a target.

he may cost £15M, but he'd be a very good but imo.

21 Nov 2013 12:23:58
All good options Supasub, but I feel Moreno and Sandro will end up costing close to 20m as their clubs look to hold on to them, plus there is serious interest in them from other top teams. Willems is great going forward but isn't great defensively.

But they are all options to be considered.

Moon, I rate Santon more as a right back than a left back. I bumped into him in town the other day and he seems like a good lad. But I feel he'll cost at least 15m.

Historically other than Rio we've never spent big money on defenders, Evra cost 4m, Vidic 7m ect. So i'm looking for a player who we could get for less than 12m, that way we would have more money to put towards the key midfield area.

With Vidic looking like he is signing a new contract then hopefully we can delay signing another CB and give Jones and Smalling another year to develop and stake a claim. Meaning we have more money to spend on the midfield.

Seriously shouldn't we be buying better quality players?

Coentrao for me. but Sandro of Porto would be a good bit of business if we manage to offload Anderson

Pardoe, Can I ask you how many Swansea or Newcastle games you've seen over the past 2 years?

Pardoe,

If we don't sign Baines, would you rather us not sign a LB at all, then?

Continue with Evra and Buttner for another couple of years?

I'm not as knowledgable when it comes to prospects around the world as some on here, but I'm sure there are good LBs out there who would be a significant improvement on what we have. not called Leighton Baines.

Baines would be my first choice, but we need backup plans or else we keep lumbering forward with the same aging team.

Baines should be first choice. He is the best in the league and should have an instant impact which is what we need.
I think the deal is down to the player; if he forces the move it may reduce the price to somewhere near what the club want to pay.
If we cannot sign him then I agree that we should try and sign Davies from Swansea. I reckon £12m would be a fair price for him.

I´m going to stick my neck out on the LB debate. If we´re looking for quality at a cheap price then I´m for giving Neil Taylor a go.

He was quality before his injury and just can´t get back into the team because Swansea have another great LB.

Defensively solid and good going forward.

I'm sorry but I must have missed Bayern, Real etc queuing up for said swansea and newcastle players.

And no I admit I don't like to watch the likes of newcastle avidly. I just think you are settling for slightly "better" than we have

Hi Pardoe, I hear what you are saying but sometimes you have to go off what you see with your own eyes.

From what I saw of Taylor he really impressed as an all round full back. I have no idea whether he has recovered or can recover to the same level and kick on ala Ramsay but the fact that he is second choice would suggest Swansea may be willing to sell relatively cheaply and the player would want to move.

He´s also very young and if he proved upto it we could have a young, settled back 5 for the next 10 years.