Manchester United Banter Archive October 22 2014

22 Oct 2014 22:04:44
I have to say that I think Isco is one of the most "wasted" talents in the world. Sublime and fantastic, would do excellently well in any other team with "limited" resources. I really rate the kid and IMO he is better than James Rodriguez. Madrid look like a juggernaut again

Deeps.

23 Oct 2014 00:35:11
Completely agree, him, Kroos & Benzema were the best players on the pitch

Only madrid would go and buy james for mega money when they had a player like isco .

Isco is top class, when you think they had Bale missing as well - crazy.

Liverpool need to start worrying, one injury to Sterling and they could be in free fall. They look so slow this season.

22 Oct 2014 20:46:12
I'm thinking we all need to give Beast a break here. He's a regular poster although lately he's become a bit of a negative Nellie (no offence mate). However, everyone is entitled to their view and an opposite view is not necessarily a wrong view. He's not offensive like certain other now departed posters and I enjoy his different view. This is about debate, argument, and banter. Beast may be right, he's probably wrong, but how view is as valid as anyone else's. Keep posting mate, I for one will miss you if you take a break.

Until the last couple of days the site has been very quite.
I can see the point beast is trying to make about lvg i just don't agree with sacking a manager after 8 games

Me neither Jred, but many posters just call him names and don't even consider if he has a point, which he does.

Thanks AJH. I appreciate the debate and realise my topic was extreme, but its important to be able to see things from different perspectives.

I hope my views are not automatically discounted moving forward just because this one is so controversial.

Beast, I don't agree but I get your point. 8 games is too early to reach an opinion for me but I have an open mind. I love LVG, always have, but we need to see progress and improvement. Despite only drawing, I thought we looked much better against West Brom. If we can tighten up the defence we have every chance of delivering the top 4

I have disagreed a lot with Beast about our Wayne and sometimes not used very polite language, but I completely agree with Tony - It's his view and he is not abusive, he is entitled to it. Calling names and ganging up defeats the purpose of banter. I was guilty of it in the past and it's plain wrong. I don't agree with his latest view of LVG being the biggest problem, but some of his points are debateable if not correct.

Deeps.

22 Oct 2014 22:05:51
I've refrained from posting the last two days. But for me the point is you've been negative on lvg from day one. Now I don't know if that's disappointment your own personal choice didn't get the job or whatever. But is seems you fail to appreciate the size of the task at hand or what has been accomplished so far.

I tend to agree with the chap on most things and to an extent I agree that LVG's performance as Manchester United manager just simply hasn't been good enough. I'm still some way away from calling for his head - but can't stand the hypocrisy from others on here given how quick they were to jump down Moyes' throat. LVG's start has been equally calamitous as Moyes' despite having spent a considerable amount of money 'improving' the squad and yet most people seem to be defending him against even the slightest bit of criticism. Given the fixture list and the money invested in the squad we should be on 22 or 24 points (we've played 6 of the bottom 8, West Ham and Swansea). Looking further ahead at the fixture list and judging by the way we're playing I can see us being on 31 after 19 - and if that's the case I think the club will have to seriously start considering whether LVG is the right man for the job.

22 Oct 2014 17:58:08
It seems like blaming Fergie is not over yet. Greatest manager of all times, rebuilt our club and restored it's pride, got us unrivaled success and had a major hand in carrying us to the top of world football, both as a club, team and franchise and yet we still find a way to blame him for our current predicament, like he has not done enough.

Appointing Moyes was a massive bargain. But it could have gone both ways. he could have carried on Fergie's era, or he could have destroyed it. And SAF put him on the right way to do just so.

He got the fans and the older players to back him before he even started despite the doubts. He lined up transfer targets that would have solved most of our deficiencies, he left us with a good blend of youth, experience, and quality. We had a solid coaching staff who the players were comfortable with and who knew what it takes to guide the team.

1-RVP, Carrick and Vidic are 3 leaders in their respective positions. Rio and Evra also had unrivaled experience and pull in the dressing room, and yet Moyes managed to alienate the lot of them, and turn them against him.

2-Mike Phelan was a tactical disaster as it seemed, but he had a part to play in Ferguson's plan. He took care of the day to day work, the planing, the schedule and the inner player resources and he knew what he was doing.
Rene Meulesnteen is widely known to be our tactical planner. he knew the modern games, understood the tactics, took care of the formations, explained to the players exactly what needed to be done, and where it will lead.
In his later years, Fergie began counting more and more on his staff, and they got the job done. Moyes did not want any of it, and his micro management style just showed that it is impossible to take care of so many aspects, and he ended up not having anyone to count on.

3- targets, we had Strootman, Herrera and Garay planned up. Rodriguez, Benatia and Thiago were realistic targets. Yet Moyes did not attempt to get any of them. Imagine Strootman instead of Fellaini, Tiago instead of Blind, Garay and Benatia leading the defense, Rodriguez instead of Mata and our season would have looked a whole lot better. Instead Moyes was hell bent on getting Fabregas and Bale, and we ended up with swat.

4- youth: Jones, Powell, Zaha, Januzaj, Wilson, Smalling, Welbeck, Kagawa, Rafael, what more could a manager ask for? An aging squad my arse.

Fact is so many changes last year affected the player. If it would have been done gradually, it might have been easier. Moyes was always a pragmatic manager, and the pragmatic thinking to do would have been to approach the style in a way the player were used to and yet he didnt. He tried too much too soon and it backfired.

Had he stuck with Fergie's formula, and did what was planned, we would have been better off, and he might still have a job. But he didnt, he went against everything Ferguson had asked of him, and he paid the price. Unfortunately, so did we.

Fergie planned for Moyes' tenure, prepared for it, and Dave was in all likelihood appointed because he would follow the plan in a way the likes of Guardiola and Mourinho would not. But dear Davey tried to be one of the likes of Guardiola and Mourinho. How can Fergie be blamed?

Everything we have been going through this season is because of that. The team's confidence was shot down, the player are frustrated and learning a whole new different set of tactics and philosophy under different managers and trainers with different team mates might be harder than some of you expect.

We are still paying the price of last years disaster

22 Oct 2014 18:04:34
Great post Mick, u have been missed while not posting as much mate.

Agree 100% with most.

22 Oct 2014 18:06:57
Always enjoy your very level headed, down to earth posts Mick and this one was no different. Well put mate.

I was thinking that way myself Mick foundations were put in by the specialist but a cheap builder was bought to do the house and shabby workmanship was done now an expert is in and an awful lot of has been and will have to be spent

Mick, you're a top poster and I usually agree with and respect your views, but SAF has to take some responsibility here. Yes, he's the greatest manager ver but in his later years he wring the best out of a squad that was. Ageing and had some holes. At CB Rio and Vidic were ageing and Jones and Smalling are still yet to convince. More worryingly, we are lacking in CM yet we continued to sign players in other positions. Pogba could have filled that gap but for whatever reason we lost him for nothing. His treatment of Rooney was odd, I would have been happy for him to go but we ended up caught between 2 stools.

Moyes made huge mistakes, back room staff, transfer targets, tactics, but let's not ignore the deficiencies we had.

I would agree with ajh on this imo the team that won the title had peaked .
We have spent 250 mill since then and still need a cb or 2, a cm and a rb

Mick

I have to say your post is completely unbalanced and quite Naive. Fergie bought rubbish for 5 years and got every inch of value from the likes of vidic, evra, ferdinand, giggs, scholes, rooney to win.

He left a very poor and ageing team team behind and you concept of this and that player was in and Moyes did not follow true is quiet naive mate.

Our players not performing has nothing to do with last year but more about some are not good enough and also struggling to adapt to the new system.

Strootman is rubbish and i don't know where you suddenly think he would have been the saviour. He is good enough for italian football and watching the football in Europe it is quite clear it is a league for players to see out their careers or so so players from the PL, Germany or Spain league.

Thiago was always Bayern Munich bound and I would argue that yes we missed out on Garay but LVG this time also passed on him, he also passed on Benatia and a few other defenders, so where is your indept analysis of those decisions.

Finally some of youth players will never be good enough and gone in 2 or 3 years or even sooner.

Shahram - Hope you are doing fine mate! As usual, I completely agree with your post and very well written.

I agree with Tony and Jred as well.

Deeps.

Hi Deeps

I am up to me neck with work at the moment and travel and try and get a few minutes in to read the board but lately been difficult.

I still maintain the start of the season given what we have spent and who we have played has been calamitous.

I don't understand people defending it as the previous manager was crucified for a fraction of what we are seeing.

The only reason we don't have a full scale riot on our hands is other teams like Arsenal and Liverpool have also dropped points. Imagine if they had there start like last year where we would be. The difference is I can see us potentially being 6 or 7 points behind them after the next 2 games from 4th place and even the likes of Everton also going by us and I wonder how understanding the fan base would be then.

22 Oct 2014 08:21:43
Interesting to read SAF's comments this morning, oh how defensive he seems. I'm sorry but he has to be held somewhat accountable for last seasons misery, he can say all he wants about the squad being fine but to liken it to Chelsea of this season? Come on Alex. I have all the respect for the man in the world but at this rate he'll end up just as bad as Keane.

22 Oct 2014 10:57:56
How you can even contemplate fergie has done any harm to united is beyond me we won the league by eleven points with a side that was suppose to be old . Chelsea had an old squad the season moyes took over. In my opinion. The other thing that fergie probably did not expect was for moyes to get rid of the coaches so quick he should of at least of given it a season . I think he wanted to do it his way to quick. But what do I know.

22 Oct 2014 13:13:06
You joking right? Like he hadn't done enough for the club already? You take what he did for granted it was going to be difficult for any manager taking over from him because the club would have been set in it's ways about how it operates. Moyes' made a meal of it, by the sound of it not many of the players took a liking to him and there's also the fact he didn't strengthen the squad which is arguably Woodwards fault. So there are a lot of people to blame before a manager who kept us at the top throughout two decades.

So no one can ever criticise SAF? He blatantly neglected the midfield for years, his refusal to look for a replacement for Keane and Scholes was stupid, we had a perfect replacement in our own ranks and we chose to bring Scholes out of retirement and play a right back center mid.

I absolutely adore the man and I was there for his last game, but I won't let myself be blinded by him. Everyone has their flaws and SAF's were his stubbornness and ill temperament, which probably actually contributed to his greatness, but still guys you have to admit you're being a tad bias?

22 Oct 2014 15:37:06
Thing is anon he won the league with the team he left so u would he feel he left a inadequate squad?

Pogba was always going to leave United whether we played him in that game against Blackburn or not. He wasn't played because he wouldn't sign a contract so others where picked ahead of him.

22 Oct 2014 15:46:41
You can criticise him for the Pogba situation. He did try bring in midfielders such as Thiago but that can't exactly be his fault considering he has nothing to do with transfer dealings and how do you know he was given as much support (financially) from the Glazers as LVG has received recently considering we were in a decent position before whereas now the Glazers realise they'll have to invest to keep us at the top otherwise basically the value of our club will drop.

Don't understand why you said at this rate he'll be just as bad as Keane, not really the same is it if he's defending himself as opposed to bitterly attacking someone for something that happened years ago.

22 Oct 2014 15:54:02
You say neglected the midfield but it's not about signing big names or spending lots of money, it's about winning championships which is what he continued to do. That's what separates the good managers from the great. Like Chris said he won the league with basically the same squad as what Moyes had, expect Moyes had the addition of Fellaini. Do you really think if he was still in charge then we would have finished 7th?

Moyes didn't have a fit committed rvp, fergy did that was a massive difference .
But winning the league with that team was one of fergys biggest achievements

No Ozwald, but that's not what I'm saying, I said "somewhat accountable", he probably would have finished 2nd/3rd, as he's a world class manager, moyes simply wasn't.

He didn't neglect the midfield, he tried for year to find suitable replacements, Djemba, Liam Miller, Veron, Ando, Fletch, Hargreaves, Carrick, Alam Smith even. Promoted Gibson and Cleverly and brough in Powell. He did try to get Essien and even got Mikel in a way.

22 Oct 2014 18:09:56
I'm sorry Anon but I just see no logic in laying blame on SAF after all he's done.

Ozwald

No one is blaming fergie but he left poor ageing team behind and compounded that by buying poorly window after window in his final years and that is a fact mate and I would love to hear how how anyone can dispute the purchases of Young, Zaha, Nani, Anderson, Smalling, Jones, Bebe, given what we paid as good transfer business.

RvP and DdG weren't poor signings. Nor were Chicharito or Even Kagawa.

23 Oct 2014 17:52:57
Yes he made some bad ones, but like MBD said RvP? DvG, Chicharito and arguably Kagawa. You say he left an ageing squad, he also left a lot of very promising young players, you could even say it was a very well balanced squad with the need for a couple of world class additions which obviously he wouldn't bring in whilst retiring.

He had some bad luck with transfers in his latter years but name me one manager where all 100% of his transfers have been successful?