Manchester United Banter Archive September 23 2013

23 Sep 2013 21:17:41
Saw somewhere that someone who knows etc. said Moyes was real pi$$ed with Young and Welbecks performance yesterday.

Moyes doesn't want to risk RVP, nani likely to start although doubts over his fitness, Rooney and Chicharito to start

This chap does appear to actually know someone at United will be interesting to see if he's right

I hope it is true and both sit on that bench for a while.They were both awful.

I can not understand how Welbeck gets so many opportunities and is in all honesty a dud for a striker.

Please some one pull up some stats as he must have the worst goal to minutes played ratio in the league over the last 12 months (the guy from Everton is probably up there with him).

The boy does not know when he should pass, look to shoot and has terrible balance and generally does every thing the opposite way.

I think guys like Cleverly are decent squad players but I don't think Welbeck is even a decent squad player and we would be better off aborting this idea of playing him on the left wing for his so called defensive qualities and just go with a 3 man midfield.

Shahrman,

Been saying this for over a year now. The goals against Swansea were an anomaly (also agree with the someone who posted earlier that he gets goals for England due to the poor competition). And before people bring up the RM goal - yes it was a decent header, but RVP put that cross right on the button and welbeck contributed NOTHING else offensively over two legs.

I understand that he is a youth product, but its time to sit the kid. If he were playing for Everton and DM was interested in him, we would all be slagging moyes and welbeck. People woudl say he istn united quality and Dm has lost the plot. Heck, I doubt most prem teams would take him on loan.

Moyes may well be annoyed with Young and Welbeck, but before Moyes took over David Gill was talking to RM about buying Di Maria. Moyes takes over and all of SAF's targets get binned. Thiago & Di Maria would have been two decent buys, but it seems Moyes wanted to go in his own direction and we ended up with just Fellaini.

Welbeck = utd, s nicholas bendtner

24 Sep 2013 12:59:45
good post god created united, I agree.hope moyes don't use welbeck the clown, some friend's of me told me to give him time and I did but I have not seeing him get any better and he will not get any better then he is, welbeck young evra rio and valecia out.that's our half team from the city game and me and some friend's know that we are going to lose the game when we so the team sheet so why didn't moyes see it.zee

23 Sep 2013 21:24:33
Moyes clearly not up to the job.when did you ever see Everton playing exiting football. Similar to Sam Allerdyce or tony pulis survival first. Draw against big teams is great results. Dosent like expansive risk taking.
My choice after fergie announced he was leaving was Micheal Laudrop. Still my choice.
He would attract players could work on a budget and would play great football, players like kagawa januzi Zaha Hernandez Rvp would thrive playing under him.
Compensation would be minimal.
Please the glazers get rid of moyes before it's to late.
At least Sunderland were brave and made the right choice for me. As did Southampton some thought it was unfair decision to sack their manager last season but again right decision.
Be Brave Glazers or we will turn into Liverpool under Greame Souness

23 Sep 2013 19:53:12
24 hours later and there are those who still cannot see where we are.

Since our great team of 2008 we have lost Ronaldo, Tevez, Hargreaves and Scholes. Our first team is relying upon Vidic 32 next month who has had two bad knee injuries, Rio 35 in November, Evra 32, Carrick 32 and even RVP at 30. Yesterday City played the game with a power and pace that we couldn't match and yet we wonder why. Fellaini doesn't have that level of movement or that pace of game no matter what his age.

I see the fantasy spouted on here that we have the best squad, well Moyes has kept the same core in most games and now has a game against Liverpool that he can't really afford to lose so does he dare experiment? I saw Sydney say the Scousers will play their best team because it is their best opportunity for a trophy, actually it is likely ours. It came to SAFs rescue several times and I don't think we can be so profligate to ignore it.

We may have a big squad but the core of the better players above have aged and we just don't have replacements nor do we have that special talent that made us exciting nor have we added the level of talent that Manchester United should have done.

Choose to ignore our situation as you will but we have lost the edge. It may have been missed in all the mess but the fact that Moyes is having to do a hair dryer after five league games is really concerning, it is a time when the players should be all out for our new manager. However age catches up with footballers particularly when the quality of recruitment has not been there.
Moyes maybe making mistakes and maybe too negative but we knew that could happen. However the strategy at the highest level in the club is not acceptable and it has exposed Moyes far more than it should have done, that is where the hair dryer should be aimed

Of course we have that's why "The Equalisers" performance was so tragic in the summer with his fail in the market

Red man
I didn't see comments like this after the Swansea Palace and Leverkusen games, can you just not accept that City where much better in all departments and fully deserved their win.your going way overboard we will respond we always do.3points behind City and Chealsea with 33games remaining bring it on!

Johnny

I have made comments on this basis for some considerable time and long before the City game. I have long challenged our owners on their ambition or lack of it and the paucity of their strategy and planning to improve the team. I was not a Moyes fan but my focus has been on the lack of support from the owners and the long term lack of funding. By all means re read posts but the latest debacle yesterday is what has been coming for some time and something I and others have been growing increasingly concerned about because of the short sighted nature of the club. We are too often spun a line which is then accepted on here by certain posters and yesterday the chickens came home to roost, embarrassing.

Red man ok your not pleased with the way our club go about their business, have we not enjoyed more success than any other club in England since the Glazers took over and if you believe that the way forward is the City and Chealsea policy paying over the odds for foreign talent then loaning them out having to pay 3/4 of their wages causing major problems along the way then fine but that model can't be sustained by us and would damage all the great work our previous manager as done we stand alone the way we go about the running of this club and although we look to improve the squad they don't get involved in paying agents crazy fees panic buying to satisfy the likes of you, our squad is capable of competing and more importantly have the nouse and experience to challenge on all four fronts so chill out and don't listen to ex players, pundits and press men who hate us switch off that's what I do their full of envy.

Johnny Giles - the problem is the game involves big money and foreign players now. If we don't compete in that market we won't compete.

I was in Asia for a long time last year for the first time in 5 years When I last went in 2007/8, 90% of the shirts being worn were Utd, now it's lucky if you see 10%, all Chelsea and City. The youth of today will not grow up supporting a boring Man Utd, they will be following Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, City. This poor strategy will crucify us in 10 years time, it is only now starting to bite us with players refusing to sign for the Great Utd.

If Ramsey and Bale had chosen us over Arsenal and Spurs, where do you think they would be now? Probably back at Cardiff and Southampton or rotting in our mediocre squad. We've rested on our laurels, and sentimentality by SAF is the reason we are now being shown as has beens.

Johnny

Our success since the Glazers took over has been driven by quality players bred or bought in the vast majority since before they bought us. They have ridden along based on Scholes, Giggs, Rio, Rooney and Ronaldo all players they didn't buy and have helped them have success as the real quality core of the team. If they don't invest we will struggle and are starting to see the signs of that now. I have seen plenty of mediocrity due to average players and if you are satisfied with that then that is what we will get. We had a great manager previously who motivated the team particularly in recent years as we declined, to achieve beyond the sum of their parts. Major Investment is needed now as we did before the Glazers arrived or we will decline, the decline has already started for those who wish to see it.

Red Man, you need to get out more :)

Used to shout at my wife years ago, when she said this, but - It's only a game of football, mate.

We've had drubbings before, and we'll have them again.

And we're still here.

23 Sep 2013 18:46:09
This is exactly on message. Moyes was bequeathed a boat full of holes, with the midfield problems magnified by willful neglect and hubris.

However, Fergus was a brilliant motivator and this papered over many of the cracks.

Moyes has shown no evidence of managerial talent wherever he has worked. Talent can be seen in many instances in the Premier League - Swansea and Southampton have talented managers who overcome their financial limitations by buying well and adopting imaginative strategies. There are plenty of similar instances in Span and Italy, and there is clearly evidence in Germany.

The criteria laid down for the new manager by David Gill contained two clear criteria: success domestically, and deep experience in Europe. Moyes has neither. Instead he demonstrates a dogged reliance on conservative and bland formations, reinforced by poor team selection.

His appointment was a mistake. The consequences will be difficult to live with.
Aesop

can I just say this is the best post I've read to date, it hits the nail firmly on the head, thanks Aesop for putting it so eloquently.

Give him a chance. 5 games is not enough to judge him be patient. things could have been a lot different if the club didn't back fergie.

23 Sep 2013 18:35:13
TBH a lot of the players need to step up and hopefully yesterdays lack of performance will make them do just that.

Rooney is getting back to his best purely because he's got the right mind set so hopefully he can show the others what focus and effort can do.

Agree and to think back how any united fans wanted to see the back of rooney lol

23 Sep 2013 17:47:19
I see the happy clappers are out in force today, just 1 game, long season, best squad and so on. I have to say I am getting a little worried. Melt me explain why.

1. We have been in decline for a while - poor results against lesser opposition have demonstrated this - Europa League anyone?

2. We failed to invest again when we have huge issues to adds.

3. Before everyone jumps in with 'we won the league last year', let me say again that I think that had more to do with how poor everyone else was as opposed to how good we were.

4. I don't buy this 'we have the best squad' argument. Happy to respect people's opinion on this but it is an opinion I disagree with.

5. We have plays who are showing signs of age, are out of form, or are simply not good enough - Rio, Valencia, Nani (I know he hasn't featured much yet), Young, Welbeck, Anderson, Cleverley. Look at the top 6 and tell me which teams would pick Cleverley, Anderson or Welbeck.

6. And then we get to DM. Yesterday he appeared not to know what to do. His team selections have been less than dynamic and his utterances about 'a tough start' are embarrassing.

7. I'm happy to accept a season of transition but playing Young and Giggs doesn't feel like transition.

So, it may only be one game but anyone who is happy with our start is watching a different game to me. We look tired and laboured. Other than Leverkeusen I don't think we have looked great, even against Swansea where the scoreline flattered us. Yes today was awful. The man we bought to add steel strolled around instead of disrupting play. Carrick and Fellaini together is not working for me - pedestrian and 1 paced. The wingers were poor and Welbeck continued to do his impersonation of a new born foal. Rio was poor again and Smalling looked all over the place.

I'm not sure there is a lot to be done. Zaha is raw and Januzaj is inexperienced but at east they might have a go. Transition is fine but we need passion and commitment, 2 things that we didn't all see yesterday (apart from Rooney). If people have got over yesterday's defeat already, then you are better men than I.

Phew, feel better now

To say i'm suprised AJH would be an understatement, I always thought of u as being very level headed, but recently I have seen these type of posts mate, I think we all know we should do better but we did pi$$ the league last year, got knocked out of the cl by am awful reffing decision and just as bad reactive decisions from fergie.
Yes other were poor last year but we shwed everyone that by winning the league so comfortable.
We will be fine, i'm no happy clapper by any means mate i'm a realist and know wot we are atm, we will be there or there abouts come may again!

Good post AJH you beginning to think along the same lines as me

If your post had been up when I started mine AJH I wouldn't have bothered. Perfect assessment.

Chris, whilst we did smash the league last season in terms of points you will have to agree the standard of our football and the way we won many of our games was a stark contrast to just a couple of years before that - grind. The stats don't show how difficult it was for us to win matches last year and had it none been for an inspired RVP for the first half of the season it would have been a very different story at the end of the year.

Too many players aren't good enough and the X factor that was playing for SAF is showing that they all don't have that extra gear now Moyes is in.

The only positive out of yesterday's performance was Rooney's work rate, but his first half performance was just as abject as the rest of them, if not worse, Kompany didn't give him a chance.

Chris

I usually try to be positive but I think too many people are ignoring the situation. It is a gradual decline over several years and whilst I know 1 game does not define a season, I can't believe how dismissive some are being of what was a terrible performance. If I'm honesty didn't enjoy watching us last year and other than Leverkeusen, haven't done so this year.

Boarshawred, thanks mate but if I ever end up like you I'll slit my wrists :-)

And Chris, I was fighting the good fight on the Arsenal page trying to give Malaga a dose of realism. I hate continual negative sniping of some, but sometimes, you just have to get it off your chest. As I said, I feel better now!

End up like me? what being right about united all the time remember my comments no quality players coming in and we will struggle to get into top 4

Very good post, yes it's easy to slate him but unfortunately we are in a decline and need to realise that. We have had some wonderful teams and the biggest problem of all is we will require a huge level of investment to get us anywhere near the peaks we were at. Most of our main players are 30 or more and our back up players are no where near the level or consistent enough.
Yes we have some good players but it's nothing in comparison to before let alone to the power houses of Europe. Really we are at a stage and do what we done before and play our quality kids like jones/Zaha/and Powell whose unfortunately on loan etc and build around them. Giving them this season and moyes to develop and then hopefully get rid of the dead wood and replace the old guard who are unfortunately pass their peak.

No boarshaw I think he means being a self indulging negative nancy that seems so far up his own bum and seemingly revelling in his own teams bad points.
Yes AJH I see u fighting the cause fair play mate

After sunday how can anyone be positive lol

23 Sep 2013 17:26:14
Terrible yesterday. I think it just adds a lot more to my opinion the DM is just in way over his head. and i'm not just saying this after 1 poor performance, we have not played well at all this season bar the euro game. and his team selections are bizarre.
Ferdinand playing 5 games in a row, when everyone knows he's not up to that, Evra is at fault again for at least 2 goals and Fellaini, our primary transfer target, was also at fault. Sir-miss-a-lot welbeck, young, Valencia, cleverly, smalling just not good enough anymore. We have januzaj and zaha who played great pre-season, not getting any chance (bar 20mins v palace), while young who has been shocking gets 3 starts.
DM needs to realize its not everton he is managing!, he wouldn't start barkley at everton because he was too young and now he's playing great for them under a different manager.
While I know most people will say its not his fault, squad isn't the best etc, but he had 3 months to bring in players and decided against it for various reasons, I think we will really struggle this year and could be in for some panic buys in January in the hope of getting 4th place.
I said during the summer that DM would last 18months. I don't think he will even get that.

23 Sep 2013 16:31:59
Mick, you have just said you do not blame Moyes for any of this, then in the same post saying Moyes keeps playing Young and Valencia which you do not agree with. You need to make your mind up. Moyes is the manager and the manager should at times be held responsible. Can I ask, if strong rumours that Moyes decided against Thiago as he didn't feel he was best suited for the EPL are true, do you still believe he has no blame? Fellaini made little difference yesterday, but Fellaini and Thiago would have done.
Sydney!

right syd, without getting into arguments about point of view, when I say I don't blame moyes for his defence first and lack of any clue as to how to fit the likes of kagawa into the team or indeed for not signing probably the best young midfielder in europe in thiago, it is in the same way I don't blame a wasp for stinging or a bee for buzzing, its moyes nature, he's never shown 1 iota of nowst in flair and winning, how can you blame him for takin the best job in football, no, my blame lies with the club for signing a loser like moyes and to a certain extent fergie, he may have great work ethic but he is massively lacking in top level european football, I hope that explains what I thought I had made perfectly clear in my original reply to your post.

Fair play Mick. I think Moyes will come good in the end, but part of me hopes he didn't turn down Thiago as he would have improved us so much.

23 Sep 2013 15:21:49
Brendon Rodgers has described Luis Suarez as "chomping at the bit to play against Manchester United". Provided me with a bit of light entertainment after watching half that crap yesterday as I couldn't bring myself to watch the second half.

23 Sep 2013 14:54:49
Well after all the tears from yesterdays spanking with the Eds permission if they don't mind a little light hearted relief.

Paying Respect At A Wedding

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL3LFkxElbs

Haha that's quality!

23 Sep 2013 13:47:49
Hi guys does anyone no of a streaming site for sports not just football other than first row?
One that works on andriod would be awsum.
Thanks in advance.

Vipbox but google chrome is the best tbf

Try cricfree tv . net mate streams everything

23 Sep 2013 13:12:03
We could talk about yesterday forever, but it's important we all move on and concentrate on the week ahead. 2 victories and i'm sure we will all be feeling a lot better. Yes it was hard to take yesterday, but there's no point dwelling on it, it's only been 5 games, still a long way to go for all teams. We have a favourable run of fixtures now, where we could really kick on and gain some momentum. So let's not all start to panic just yet, we always seem to get better as the season goes on, and we have practically the same team as last year, who are champions by the way. We have not turned into a bad team overnight, we just never got going yesterday until it was too late. Hopefully by now, Moyes has seen the true colours of some of his players and will be more willing to take a risk, than play it safe. So let's all get behind the team for Wednesday and show the scousers what we really are capable of!

We haven't turned into a bad team over night but we remain a not very good one

23 Sep 2013 12:40:16
We used to score goals from all over the park Scholes Keane Beckham Younger giggs.Other than RVP and Rooney where do you think goals are going to come from now Wellbeck, Cleverley Carrick.
Your'e having a laff ain't ya.Entertaining football that has you off your seat.Not for a few years now

23 Sep 2013 11:08:31
Surely us fans deserve to see us shell out a good hammering to man city after the couple of beatings they have given us over the last couple of seasons.

I honestly can't remember the last time we beat them by more than the odd goal its certainly not in the last 5 years.

Would love to see us give a team a good hiding but we didn't all last season either we beat wigan 4 nil home and away and that was about it as far as I can recall.

Come on let's bring back the swashbuckling play we know of at united and start smashing teams once more

We had a chance when we went 3.0 up, but the players settled for it instead of going for the throat. We could have demolished them that day.

This season we beat Swansea 4-1 and Leverkusen 4-2, so scored 4 goals in 2 out of 6 games. It's amazing what people say after 1 bad game.

Don't be expecting us to hammer any one for a while to come.We have the weakest squad in many a year at the minute. If we loose some of our key players we could be in serious trouble this season.
Far too many average players within our squad who flatter to deceive, some of them should have been shown the door during the summer.
Imo Moyes played a massive gamble by not following the targets that Utd and Fergie were interested in, instead he wanted to evaluate the squad himself and then make changes. In doing so not only did we fare so badly with new players but because we did n't get Moye's targets we were reluctant to release any one else.
I know Sydney and a few others think that we will over come this blip and go on to win the league but is this heart ruling head.Think we need to be a little more realistic here guys, once upon a time teams used to fear coming to OT because they knew what was awaiting them, sadly this is no longer the case.

Red paddy, my heart don't rule my head mate. I believe we will accumulate more points over the season than City. That's why I think we will win the league.

GDS2

1 bad game? Arguably our 3 biggest domestic games of the season in liverpool, chelsea and city and we have seen 1 goal in 3 games from a dead ball situation. The truth is in the big games we have had so far we have not looked like winning if i'm honest that's the concern we haven't gone at any of them.

Beating leverkusen at home and swansea away doesn't compare to liverpool away and city away or chelsea at home IMO.

Yes syd that day was frustrating as they were down to 10 men for most of the game I was expecting us to go for it that day in the cup but it ended up us hanging on in the end.

I am not worried by any means but I would like us to go for the jugular more in the big games and based on the 3 we have seen so far in the league we have been set up more not to lose rather than go for the win

Another Sydney prediction this could be the final nail in United's title ambitions

I have faith in my team Jred. We won the league four months ago, we are not a bad side after one game. let's give Moyes some time as he will come through for us.

GDS and Syd

Tomorrow we can beat Aston Villa 10-1 and you'll come talking about this game for years to come. The truth is that we could't score more than one accasion against big teams. Fact. 3 games one goal(free kick) scored and 5 conceded.

Oh no, Swansea and Leverkursen are huge teams. Right.

It's the fact that when we played Liverpool, Chelsea and City we never really looked threatening their goal. Yes we were without Rooney against Lpool and without RvP against City. But that's hardly promising that if one of our big guns are missing from one game our attack becomes incredibly flat and predictable, thanks to Young, Valencia, Cleverley, Welbeck, Anderson.

Can't imagine the players have much confidence for the season ahead with them all knowing just how poor we looked against the bigger teams. Our only hope is to consistently pick up points, where our rivals could potentially slip up.

Nick, MU will play 38 games this season and only two against City. One is already done with. City beat us on the day, last season we beat them on the day. No one can go the whole season winning every game. Perhaps you need to chill out and stop overreacting. it's just one game. We should have beaten Liverpool and probably would have done if Rooney played. Chelsea was a damp squib for both sides. City beat us well. The only game I have an issue with is yesterday's game, but like I said we only play them twice a year. The other 36 games are games do not involve City and it's simply about us getting more points then them against the other sides. I think we will do.

Syd if you think we will finish above city you must of enjoyed too much of the drink yesterday and I don't base that purely on yesterdays result

John, if we finish above City we win the league. I believe we will accumulate more points from other teams than they will. We will see come May, but I think this loss will Spur us on to winning the league.

John

I think the optimistic view is that whilst we might lose in the head to head games against our major rivals, we will pick up more points against the lesser teams than they will.

It is an interesting theory based on the belief we have a better squad than the likes of City, Chelsea, Spurs.

I don't agree with that theory period, our so called great squad in reality relies on 2 players being in top form RVP and Wayne Rooney and if they are not firing we are in trouble.

Depending on 2 players is not squad strength as we have very few goals or match winners in midfield or wings.

Ask your self a simple question if you had to bet a large chunk of money, which group would you bet on being a more productive group in terms of goals and assists.

Nani/Valencia, Young, Cleverly, Fellaini

or

Silva, Nasri, Toure, Navas

or

Mata, Hazard, Ramirez, Lampard

or

Lamela, Erickson, Paulinho, Sigurisson


I excluded the strikers as we have a better group than Chelsea and Spurs but City have a top quartet of strikers as well.

Syd you seem to think its between city and us, I wouldn't be to sure about that any one of 5 teams could win it this year and my outside bet would be arsenal.i will still be at every home game as usual but I've a feeling it will all go tits up for us this season.the 1st eleven are decent enough on there day but the squad in places is very average.

23 Sep 2013 09:56:59
Is anyone else concerned that despite being outplayed by one of our biggest rivals, Moyes only decided to make one substitution? I'm not saying that the outcome would have been any different but at half time or in the second half it would have made sense to bring on Nani and Hernandez. Insted Moyes sole tactical decision was to introduce Cleverley.

The only pluses from the performance was 1 - surely now Young will be out of the door. When the team plays that badly it takes a special kind of player to stand out as being even worse. 2 - Rooney has his hunger for the game back. I know he's never going to be everyones favourite player after his past antics but yesterday he looked like the only player wanting to play for the shirt and cared about the result.

What was worrying was he never brought on Cleverley at HT. I would have used Nani for Valencia at the end, but I think Moyes conceded the loss and was thinking about Liverpool and I expect to see Nani & Co play in that game.

His lack of substitutions was the biggest worry of the day for me, yes. The result hurts, but these things happen, particularly in derbies. We had a bad day at the office and that's it. However, DM was too cautious. At 2-0 down, Fellaini and Young should have been replaced by Kagawa and Hernandez at HT. We had nothing to lose. Should have just gone for it in my opinion.

I'll be honest mate. When I saw DM getting Cleverley ready to come on, at that point in the match, I started to have my first niggling doubts about the guy's capabilities.

And that's not meant as a swipe at young Tom. Just thought it was the wrong sub
At that particular time.
StevieK

StevieK, but turned out to be the right sub at that time. Moyes should have made that change at HT. We needed an extra body in midfield. Nani should have replaced Valencia at some point.

AJH

I actually posted at half time yesterday that he should bring cleverly and Kagawa on and gone to a 5 man midfield with rooney playing as a lone striker and subbed Welbeck and Young.

The fact that he waited for us to get truly humped before he shored up the midfield is worrying as it was plain old obvious we could not retain any possession and were getting over run and our defense was all over the place.

Syd, it was a sub to steady the ship and protect what we had (or didn't have!).

There was no ambition in it whatsoever. At least when they humped us 6-1, we gave it a rattle, even with 10 men.

I'd rather go down fighting, with a bit if style and swagger, than meekly go to meet the inevitable.

StevieK

StevieK, we played FAR better with that extra midfielder and it was all MU from then onwards. City was comfortable at 4.0, but they still tried to score more goals. That extra man meant Valencia could stay forward. I'd much rather it'd been Nani though, I agree.

Sydney! StevieK. I agree with you both. We did play better with Cleverly on instead of young although I would imagine given his abject performance even Lindergaard would have seen us improve.

My main concern is that Moyes didn't seem to want to bring on players who might influence the game in a positive way. Kompany was immense but I think playing Welbeck suited his game. Hernandez with his movement and in box play would have caused far more problems. I'd have liked to see Young, Welbeck and Valencia replaced at HT with Kagawa, Nani and Hernandez and have a proper go at the City defence.

He was trying to get cleverly on before the goals went in, he was warming up and then the 4th went in as he was about to come on.

He should have pulled Young & Smalling at half time, pushed Valencia to right bank and he did the right thing bringing on Clevs. He calmed us down with the ball and we actually started to create. Fellaini pushing further forward was the main reason we looked better, he gave them physicality to think about and we could work in the space and pick up the pieces.

The players we have were signed for a reason, unfortunately half of them have not lived up to their potential and should have been shown the door, but Moyes gave them a second chance, fair enough. It will be wholesale changes next summer and the general deficiencies being shown has been coming for ages, teams don't fear us anymore.

We've been turning up to war with a cannon and all our enemies are buying nuclear warheads!

The team has been poor for years, but we have just managed to scrape wins where we will now draw or lose the same game this season.

23 Sep 2013 09:37:44
Our next five fixtures are below and games I'd expect us to win. If we win these five game we will be top of the league. We do not play City every week and City will not play that well every week. We would have all been happy with a draw yesterday and if that had been the case we would only be one point better off now. Spurs and Arsenal are five points ahead of us, but are yet to play Chelsea, City or Liverpool. City are three points ahead and yet to play Chelsea or Liverpool. I predict that come Halloween we will be top.

West Brom H
Sunderland A
Southamption H
Stoke H
Fulham A

This is why I am so positive about the team, we have come through the hard period, even though we could have got more points.If we win those 5 next agames, everything will be fine.We still have some questions to answer regarding derbies though.We should make sure we perform against Arsenal and Tottenham and get good results, since if you want to win the league you have to win some derbies.

Or shall I say top by Guy Fawkes night.

I agree syd I think people are slightly over-reacting to the start, yes it could have been better and less embarrassing but to have those hard games in the 1st 5 fixtures after changing the manager and many other things at the club i'm not suprised we've lost a couple of those games, maybe some of moyes selections are a bit worrying but hopefully he'll learn from them, remember we lost 2 of our 1st 5 last season and look what after that. Win the next 5 and we'll be back on track.

Syd this has been my point, result aside we dnt have that many points less than I expected at this point, we have been unable to pick up momentum with the big games coming quickly and a international break sandwiched in between

Syd

We're declining! I'm a United fan as well but I can see. You can believe in whatever you want, but please guys don't ignore tje signs behind history. We need a serious strategy to turn this club around to avoid go any lower.

For most of the people here its okay if we don't win, since our main rivals don't win too. Its a shame. The lack of ambition make me worried. We won't compete for the CL definitely, this is for big boys and right now we aren't. And people say we're "okay"!

By the end of the season we'll see who's right.

I would keep your predictions to yourself from now on Syd.

Syd

I think we will do very well if we win 4 and draw one and don't expect us to be leading the table but will be close. Southampton will not be easy and would not be surprised if we end up drawing as their style of play can give us quite a bit trouble.

Everyone talks about a tough start, it is only tough if you don's have the players to deal with it and we are suppose to have this great squad :). As defending champions we are expected to be a lot better against our main rivals than we have been.

We haven't just played City and Liverpool away and Chelsea at home. We have also ticked off a very difficult Swansea away fixture too.

Swansea A
Chelsea H
Liverpool A
City A

They are difficult fixtures and no other club have played anywhere near this amount of difficulty yet. People are overreacting and forgetting we have just lost SAF who has been here for 27 years. After ten games we will get a better idea of where the teams will finish.

Refresh my memory lads, who was the other defeat we had last season I remember the opening day defeat at Everton but can't think of the other loss in the opening 5 games wasnt sure we did? Cheers guys

I was hoping for 10 points from the first 5, I said that a few weeks ago, so I am disappointed we are 3 points worse off than that, but that's it, 3 points. The overreaction I saw on Twitter and on here yesterday was laughable. We are 3 points behind Chelsea and City, it is absolutely nothing.

I think our next 8 games are winnable Syd to be honest not just the next 8, I have us top by end of November, but Bonfire night would be better!

Im not even going to bother explaining what's wrong with this post, I don't mind optimism but mate this is simplification in the extreme, my biggest worry is the players we could lose with moyes determination in playing the same formation no matter what's happening on the pitch and stickin with young and valencia, thus defeat will probably lean him more towards playing giggs than januzaj because he will try not to be beaten first rather than trying to win first, at the end of your run is arsenal and carrick and fellaini will be destroyed again against arsenals mobile 3 man midfield, I don't blame moyes for any of this as he is doing exactly what he did at everton which is what got him the job, so against the smaller teams we will be hard to beat against the teams with mobile 3 man midfields we will be outclassed and beat as were everton under moyes, let's see where we are come xmas.

Its slightly annoying that we lost to Liverpool, drew with Chelsea and also lost to City. I'm hoping that we carry on our traditional of starting slow but having a strong second half of the season.

"By the end of the season we'll see who's right."

That's what people like yourself said last season Nick and guess what? We won the league.

Mick, you have just said you do not blame Moyes for any of this, then in the same post saying Moyes keeps playing Young and Valencia which you do not agree with. You need to make your mind up. Moyes is the manager and the manager should at times be held responsible. Can I ask, if strong rumours that Moyes decided against Thiago as he didn't feel he was best suited for the EPL are true, do you still believe he has no blame? Fellaini made little difference yesterday, but Fellaini and Thiago would have done.

Damon it was against spurs at old trafford lost 3.2

There are issues with moyes, he's never managed at this level he seems to be defensive and the decision to play 4_4_2 yesterday looked nothing short of naive .
Our back 4 are looking old .
Our wingers continue to struggle for form and for me we still haven't sorted out cm. Carrick fellaini are to slow and not mobile enough as a pair, ok against Sunderland and co but not the best teams imo.
Gill has gone and Woodward made us look almost amateurish during the summer.
We got beat of the scouse, got beat of city and drew with Chelsea but it's ok because we can beat Sunderland and co.
Do people really think we are the best team in England or Europe .
Where's the ambition I hope moyes isn't thinking it's ok my next 5 games I can win and could be top by November because being top by November because you have had an easy run of games is worth nothing.
I hope he's looking at our squad then taking a look at city Munich and co and thinking where not good enough.
You can either bury your head and pretend everything is ok or be proactive and address the problems

Jred, I agree with most of that and Baines and Thiago for me would have been problems addressed.

GDS2

You must be watching something I am missing. Impossible to win 8 on the go and would do well if end up with 17 points from those 8 games. That would give us 24 from 13 games.

You do realize we have a horrendous schedule in November

Here is a list of our upcoming games;

Liverpool (LC)
WBA (H)
Sunderland (A)
Southampton (H)
Stoke (H)
Fullham (A) november
Sociadad (A) (CL) november
Arsenal (H) november
Cardiff (A) november
Leverkusen (A) (CL) november
Spurs (A)

Whist it is easy to assume we should win some of the above games even the simplest of the lot being sunderland is a saturday away game after a wednesday CL away in Ukraine.

The above schedule is missing Capital one fixtures and assuming we win on wednesday there will be 1 or 2 additional games thrown in there.

Cheers wiggy mate.

Thats right I remember it well we battered them 2nd half just the damage was done in the 1st half and we couldn't get the goals to turn the game around. We bounced back then I do expect us to bounce back this season aswell I like the majority would just like a bit more belief and attack in the big games us as fans I think deserve that we are champions aswell after all so we should go out and show it, not line up negatively and look asif we are happy to get a draw and then it backfire.

Syd
You agree with most if that yet you still think we are the best team in the league.
After watching the match yesterday what is it that you saw that made you think we are a better team than city

"Syd
You agree with most if that yet you still think we are the best team in the league.
After watching the match yesterday what is it that you saw that made you think we are a better team than city"


Jred

LMAOF that is a classic and looking forward to seeing Syd's reply.

My hope is that Moyes will use this season to get the young talents first team ready then have a massive clearout of all the players who aren't up to it.

Unless we see huge improvements in some players over the course of the season, IMO we will need to move on about 8 or 9 players, promote the youth and bring in 4 or 5.

There is also the issue of some players reaching ages where they have to be used more sparingly or perhaps will retire so that means more players being bought or coming from the youth set up.

The squad is starting to look a stale with too many players past their best or who never came up to scratch in the first place.

Since it will take 2-3 seasons to overhaul the squad and probably another season to settle in, Utd won't really be back on it for another 3 or 4 seasons.

Of course, this is probably fantasy land and what will actually happen is continued under investment, keeping players who should be moved on, bumbling transfer activity, buying players who aren't good enough and ignoring players who are good enough.

For those who think Utds current squad is good enough and there are reasons to be cheerful, just take 5 minutes and have a look at the squad lists for Madrid, Barca, Bayern, City, Dortmund, Juventus, PSG and even Napoli. There's a massive gulf in quality between us and these clubs and it will take massive changes to bring us anywhere near level. Not too long ago we had comparible or better sets of players.

Also, if you take a look at Utd's squad for the 98/99 season, I would suggest perhaps three, maybe four members of the current squad would get any gametime if they were part of that previous squad.

To my mind, there is a serial decline of what's happening on the pitch at OT and it's not just the quality of the players, it's the style of football.

I really miss the swashbuckling, attack minded football Utd used to play where teams were pulled apart by quick, incisive passing or through the sheer pace and clinicality of many a counter attack.

Sorry if I've gone a bit off topic there but I've seen how good it can be and at the minute I'm very frustrated and not a little bored by what I see.

I believe we have the best squad to win this league. City have a better first XI. Like I have always said.

The league isn't decided on MU Vs MC fixtures. That's just two games Jred.

Long Banter

in 2008/2009 United won the league with 90 points and won the CL thereafter. CR07 last hurrah and we have continued to compete with winning 3 of the last 5 pl trophies but not a factor in Europe anymore.

What is more interesting the same season 2008/2009 the Scousers finished second on 86 points and pushed us all the way.

2009/2010

Liverpool finish 7th on 63 points and their decline has been quite staggering and well documented, which is a combination of poor choices in players in the transfer window and their finances being a mess and now become a 5ht/6th place team.

4 years on from being the best team in the world, let's look at some things that should worry even the most optimistic people.

Teams generally have transition periods where one generation of players are bled in and the older bled out. In football terms 25 and 26 is considered ideal age, where players are peaking both physically/maturity and experience on the pitch and expected to be taking over from the 30 year olds who are slowly bled out.

Unfortunately we are nowhere in that transition and people can criticize players like carrick and Evra but they are warriors and play 50 to 60 games a season and we have zero alternatives and play them as a necessity.

Unfortunately, In our case all our investments in that generation that was suppose to help us make a smooth transition has been pretty much a flop with the likes of Anderson, Nani, Young, Valencia.

We have also had some bad luck with players like Fletchers and Hargreaves health issues.

Whilst some like to believe Welbeck and Cleverly are going to carry the baton forward, I say they will never be good enough and our only genuine contenders to be a mainstay are Jones, Rafael and maybe Smalling and Evans.

In summary what we have lost in 4 seasons compared to what needs to be invested is very lopsided and hence the lousy football we have witnessed that did not start yesterday but has been going on for 2 years.

The averageness of this group/squad has left us in this no mans land where the younger players are not ready and the likes of young and valencia are our best options.

I know people will disagree and like myself we are calling for Janusaj and Zaha but believe me they will not be able to solve our issues in the short terms and will have horrendous outings as well and the occasional good performance.

I base this on the fact that they are being coached/watched by professional coaches who have been around players day in and day out and are much better judges of players ability and readiness than all of us who believe we know better :)

I did not even bother the likes of Berbatov, Tevez who were expensive short term investments for the sake of winning and others who are not even worth mentioning who cost us money but have never been good enough to contribute.

I think we are in for a very rough season barring any major injuries and the unthinkable if we end up with a couple of injuries to certain players.

Syd
But you think cleverly is a great player so it's no surprise you think we have a great squad .
Drew with Chelsea got beat of Liverpool got stuffed of city, scored one goal from a free kick .
What would it take for you to start thinking maybe united aren't as good as you have been making out .
Serious question

Jred

You will never convince Sydney mate.

Everyone seems to forget that although we lost 2 early games last season we then went on to beat City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool all before christmas and those 6 pointers against our main rivals took the stuffing out of them and then the circus act with Mancini and his various experiments at City and RD/Benitez sideshow at chelsea helped us along the way for the rest of the season.

So far this season we have 1 point in 3 fixtures against our main rivals and have still got to play Chelsea away, a very good spurs team and a rejuvenated arsenal squad with players like ramsey and Ozil now making them a lot different to the team which we beat last year.

Finally, the new TV money also has enabled the middle tier of the league to go out and buy some really decent players and whilst on paper we think we should have some easy wins, the gap is a lot smaller than what it used to be.

Haha good one

I never said Cleverley is a great player. Messi is a great player, Ronaldo is a great player. George Best was a great player. Cleverley is a good player and you have said the same. "a good tidy little player".

Our first eleven needs work, I said it in the summer that we need a LB and another midfielder. I believe we have the best squad in the EPL. The depth of our squad is huge and no one can match it. City have a better eleven which I have always said.

They may not be as great as I make out, but they are nowhere near as bad as you plums are making out.

Sydney

LOL Hats off to your unwavering belief in this team and I am being serious and hope you prove us all plums wrong.

I am flying in with my 2 boys to watch the West Ham game on the 21st December and drinks on me if we are there or there a bouts.

I was originally going to take them to the Spurs game on new year day but wanted to make sure their first experience at OT is a pleasant one :)

Shaz, thanks for taking it as banter as it was just banter, didn't know how you were going to react :)

I don't see Spurs or Arsenal being a problem. I know you do, but I think we will have too much for them both.

I think Spurs will be a stronger side next season. But hopefully so will we.

23 Sep 2013 09:32:32
Eds, have I upset or offended anyone?I sent in a few posts yesterday which didn't get posted, and one was posted with the so called "whining" ones on the "other" page, when it certainly wasn't a whining post. I know none of you are accountable to me, and you will post what you see fit. But, I would genuinely like to know if I have offended anyone in any way.
Of course, I might just be being too sensitive and it was merely down to the huge amount of posts you undoubtedly has to deal with yesterday! {Ed002's Note - Lots of posts get cut because they attract abuse and over-reaction to losing a game of football. Similar issues arise on the Liverpool page if they fail to win. When it does the "Other" page gets used as a dump for all of the over-excited posters and a far higher proportion of posts simply get deleted. It is nothing directly to do with you.}

Fair enough ed, and thanks for your reply. Glad I haven't upset anyone!

23 Sep 2013 08:25:16
Was horrible to lose that way yesterday in my opinion and even worse than the 6-1 as we had 10 men for a large part of that game we just looked so slow with no pace or creativity no rhythm. We haven't been outplayed and battered like that in a long time reminded me of the 5-0 hammering newcastle give us back in the 90's.

On Wednesday I would put Evans in defence, Kagawa, Zaha, Nani, Januzaj, Hernandez all deserve a chance and should all play.

The problem yesterday was that there was absolutely nothing being created in the centre of the park so then you look to your wingers who create nothing either that leaves you with nothing to fall back on. If RVP had played the outcome would have been no different because we created nothing and have not scored in open play since the opening day in the league which is very poor so unlike united.

Im hoping that the rumours are true and the Glazers are unhappy at lack of signings and then in January unusually for United we are extremely busy as another CM needed and another winger as Ashley Young is not upto it! The strange thing yesterday was how good Cleverley was when he came on if he can play like that all the time then perhaps he deserves a chance we looked much more solid when he came on but still we need a spark in that midfield get the young boys on I think they will fight for the club as we need it right now.

Come on united let's bounce back in style

I agree, Cleverley really impressed me when he came on.He made good runs forward and got the team moving.If only he was like that more often.

On the other hand, I don't see us signing anyone in January, especially when it is a World Cup year.I hope I'm proved wrong though.

A tail of two defences for me, one defence was one of the best I've ever seen and the other was p1ss poor. Without RvP we decided to play two back fours with Valencia and Young doubling up with Smalling and Evra and there were huge gaps all game. There was no movement in the box, our defenders looked like they were stuck in the mud, but City's players were moving very well. Good job we don't have to play City at the Etihad without RvP every week. Kompany and Toure were beasts. Where were Vidic & Fellaini? Fellaini lost his runner for three of the goals, but he wasn't to blame, the whole defence and midfield were poor and we didn't start getting to grips with them until we added a 3rd midfielder. All in all it's just three points, I had hoped we had done better up until now, but we have had a tough start. At least for a couple months now we can go on a winning run starting from this Saturday.

Yeah that's quite right the only problem is if we line up with valencia, carrick, fellaini, young as our midfield in the big games I see us struggling to get anything as there is no spark or creativity in that line up.

Against the lower sides it will be fine but nowhere near good enough against the big sides, the only way would be to sacrifice young and put a 3 CM like we did when cleverley came on we stopped getting cut through in the middle then but still if we did that we would then have to rely on rooney or rvp to feed off scraps.

We have given nani a 5 year deal he has to go into the team now as he is unpredictable much different to valencia/young and he can do the unthinkable when he is at the races and will give us that spark and edge.

Kagawa has to fit in as he would also be the link for midfield and attack that our play is crying out for and in all honesty I think yesterdays mauling could turn out to be a good thing as the flair players will now be given a chance to stake a claim to get their names into the frame for starts in the league with a strong classy performance against the scousers.

The players are there in my opinion just got to find the balance and get them in i'm still optimistic, come on lads chin up we will be there or thereabouts come may I'm sure of that.

I see the optimist brigade is out today LOL

Syd it was a tale two Defences, two midfields, two wingers and two forwards mate, they were better all across the pitch.

It goes without saying people will make defensive mistakes when we are being pulled all over the place and the other team has something like 65 percent possession in the first 25 minutes.

Sometimes it is not the last act that is the reason but a series of events that lead to it, player to player they are just much better and when they play like a unit like yesterday, we have no chance and this patchwork of a team starts to show it's vulnerability.

What is scary is Silva, Jovetic, Clichy are not fit and will be coming into their squad soon.

Damon, I see the midfield being Welbeck, Fellaini, Carrick & Nani when all are fit and had a run of games. Valencia will rotate with Nani. We will also see Rooney dropping deep and Welbeck going more central with RvP up top.

We are missing that winger who will take a defender on and will make runs into the box. Nani on form is a handful, but on another note we will suffer defensively when Nani plays as he doesn't track back like Valencia. Although Valencia may not even had bothered yesterday.

I agree syd I would keep valencia in there as he is solid and will bounce back put nani in there ahead of young he was useless yesterday. Alternatively we could play carrick fellaini kagawa in midfield with kawgaw given a free role to play further forward. Moyes needs to get kagawa fit and flourishing into the side with rooney rvp and an on song nani all integrated into the side IMO. Got to have faith but the negativity so far in the three big games is baffling, Fergie did become very cautious though IMO in his latter years in the big games often went for the defensive option.

God created
completely agree

23 Sep 2013 07:09:39
League games against Liverpool, Chelsea and City have now yielded one point and one goal. United have not scored in open play in the league since the opening day. We are eighth.

Add that to five games against City since 2011 and we have lost 4 conceding 10 goals more than we scored. The Glazers have not invested properly since selling Ronaldo and if anyone seriously can say we are anywhere near as good as our 2008.9 team then they are delusional. Decline is happening and the owners have failed to improve the product. I posted the other day about empty seats and there may well be a further response to the disgraceful effort yesterday.

It is early days and yet this isn't an over reaction, take a look at our competitors, how they have strengthened, even look at Spurs coming up on our shoulders and instead of dismissing them all as inferior, start to realise we have to improve dramatically to make the top four. Think that is unrealistic, take a look at our decline over 4 years not 4 months, it paints the true picture in our Glazer paradise.

Redman know one dismisses any1 from the title here, yes all other teams have improved and god knows they needed too, this result is not knew I can think of many occasions over the last 15 years this has happened and to a lot of inferior opposition than city, problem is as with city a few years ago its the same players that let us down, going hiding in a game where they needed to stand up and be counted, no excuses here but poor form and lack of summer investment has cost us i'm these early games, we will be fine now that i'm sure of, but with the start we had I expected no more than 10 points max, although I dreamed of more.
A marker has been laid down and the lads will match and exceed it again its wot we do, however urgent changes need to be made to personal and waiting till the summer will not be right, get targets sorted now and move quickly in January.
Januzaj and zaha should have a big chance on Wednesday to stake a first team shout along with nani and chicha.

I largely agree Chris, chickens are coming home to roost. In the past we have bought fairly sparingly but promoted good youth team players. We didn't really compete against the better teams last season and won a poor league. City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs have all strengthened and we haven't. We are still carrying too many poor players. Welbeck is not Premier League standard, Young was awful, yet again, Ferdinand is past his prime etc. Where is the drive and creativity from midfield, where is the tactical thinking to turn things round. Four down and all we can do is bring on Cleverly, says it all.

Red man and Chris RM. I have been saying for a long time that our team has been deteriorating. The quality of the first team has been declining.
Some people point out that we won the league at a canter. But look at last season, city were having internal fights while Chelsea had benitez as intern manager. Even then, we were outplayed by city home and away, lost to Chelsea at ot and only just managed to beat them away as they had sending offs. We lost to spurs and we were outplayed even by Fulham.
I have been saying for some time that a change in personnel is required, but more importantly, a change in management and tactics are urgently required. So we had the managerial change, but Moyes is stuck in his ways and I'm afraid he is not what we needed.
With regards players, who in their right minds will pay any sort of money for young, Anderson, nani?
We've had all pre season and five matches of this season to start playing to a new shape. Press high up the field we were told. I didn't see any of that against Chelsea Liverpool or City. Play a tighter midfield, I don't see any of that either as Moyes insists on playing two wingers, one of them is average and the other is useless.
United, one of the top teams in the world, have management that have had no experience in winning anything, very limited experience in Europe. Then we include Phil Neville and Giggs who have been great players but also have no management experience at all. We also, throw in Mr. Woodward who has no previous experience in buying/selling players. So we have gone from having a wealth of experience in Ferguson / gill to having no experience at all. Is this the best our owners could do? Alas, they are more focussed on the million sponsorship deals to notice our decline on the football pitch.
One last thing, I could not renew my season ticket this year as I will spend a lot of time abroad for work. United have been telling everyone that they have sold the tickets at record time. I will disagree with that, they email or text me once a week to ask me to buy my ticket back. Also my mates who sit near me, say that there are at least six seats around us that have been unoccupied. Maybe if glazers started spending more effort on the football then that may change. But we live in hope!

Fergy has dragged us through the last couple of years, I don't buy into this is a great squad there are better in the EPL and Europe .
We have lost games before but the gulf in class yesterday was shocking city look a better team on paper and on the field. They went about there business very well this summer

You can always rely on Red Man and Paulo to overreact :)

Sydney

There are non so blind that cannot see

You Disappeared yesterday and pop back today to cheer the troops up so as not to feel angry at the lack of investment by the owners. Decline Sydney the team is in decline. It was obvious and has been obvious for some time and this summer should have addressed it.

I have seen derbies going back to 68 but rarely have we been truly outclassed by a far superior team like yesterday. But keep on with your pep talks you need to take the heat off the owners.

Oh and Nomidfield. I did wonder where the trio of doom and gloom were.

Seven points from Swansea, Liverpool & City away (not easy) and Chelsea & Palace at home. Not great, but not the end of the world either.

Red Man, I didn't watch the game at home yesterday so was unable to post. I had an offer from a friend that I couldn't refuse and I am paying the price for it today with a banging headache and a missus that isn't talking to me.

I have made by disappointment of this summer's transfer activity well known so no need to get childish and pretend you were the only one disappointed. Any club that sells Ronaldo and let's go of Tevez in the same summer is in decline.

You act like we are about to do a Liverpool when you conveniently forget we won the league just four months ago. MU are battling against two teams who have had the best part of ONE BILLION spent on them in the past decade.

Add that to us just changing our manager of 27 years. MU will win the league this season. I have no doubt about it. But that doesn't mean I am happy with this summer's investment.

I wanted a LB and another midfielder which is well documented. I was disappointed with just Fellaini which was also well documented. We have five winnable games ahead and I expect us to be top of the table by Guy Fawkes night.

Syd
How much have we spent on the debt so far

Very true nomidfield I've been saying the same for four years, I let my season ticket go this year, said when the transfere window was open we would only get fallaini and would struggle to make top four

Jred, a disgusting amount, what's your point?

I would say we have spent as much on the debt as city have on players .
I know you disagree but I think we have been slipping since the glazers have taken over

I would agree with that, we have no doubt wasted around £680m on servicing the debt. Although I imagine Chelsea and City have spent a lot more than that since they were purchased. £680m is still a staggering amount though. It's like £75m a season.

The EPL is MUCH more competitive now than it was before. Chelsea & City have had unlimited amounts of cash, Spurs have gotten stronger and so has the rest of the league. With more TV money they have been able to buy better foreign players.

Also other European clubs have gotten richer so the amount of talent available is divided less among the elite clubs and sometimes (not always) top players prefer the hotter climes or in Chelsea or City's case crazy salaries with humongous bonuses.

Syd
Very surprised at that as you have disagreed so many times with me that the debt affected transfers. No doubt I imagined it
Various clubs have proved money talks united record in the transfer market has been poor even an extra 30 mill a season would of made a huge difference.
Transition or decline.
Well fir me we have lost scholes giggs etc vidic evra ferdy are coming to the end and the players coming in aren't as good as what's gone before

I never said the debt affected the transfers. If we had £75m extra each year £57m of it would go out in dividends. Like I have said before, the Glazers will not pay over the odds for a player. Whether we have more money or not. We certainly could have spent more between 2009-11, but we have spent tidy sums in most years. I do think a lot of the money was wasted though.

Not sure about Syd's allegation of over-reaction. I've watched Utd for 40 years and I can't recall a time when our team was less exciting. We won a poor league last year but didn't perform well against the top teams. We have been off the pace in Europe for some time.
My real concern yesterday, however, is that too many of our players didn't seem to realise who they were playing for. Talent or no talent you have to try your very best when playing for Utd. Yesterday too many players didn't seem to care. What would Keano have said? What would SAF have said? It may be an over reaction, we may win the league again but this is not a good side.

Paulo, I get your point and agree about yesterday. I just do not think it's the end of MU like some on this page is making out.

23 Sep 2013 01:06:42
Why does Hernandez never get a chance? How can anyone think Welbeck deserves to start in front of him

Agree totally. With all the game time Welbeck got last year he only hit the net twice.

Expect Hernandez, Kagawa, Nani, Zaha & Co to get a run out in midweek. I wouldn't be surprised to see Liverpool play their strongest side though with the League Cup Liverpool's only realistic bit of silverware.