Manchester United Banter Archive October 25 2018

25 Oct 2018 11:21:42
{Ed's Note - Timbo has posted a new article entitled, I now think Jose Mourinho must leave Manchester United

25 Oct 2018 11:50:18
Fantastic post mate. There are managers available that we should be looking at - jardim, zidane and even Blanc. Why can’t we act like a big club and actually make a decision when it needs to be made? Look at real. They’ve had a poor season and they are looking to change manager. We dither and dally until it’s too late. Then we rush and appoint someone who doesn’t fit. Jardim is available. Just get him in now.

{Ed002's Note - Why would you say Jardim?}

25 Oct 2018 11:59:56
Think he would be a good fit ed. Unless he isn’t available?

{Ed002's Note - You don't think being able to speak decent English would be one of the important criteria for a Manchester United manager then?}

25 Oct 2018 12:12:59
Ed002

It's possible to learn English, so people understand, just look at Jamie Carragher and how well he has done since learning to speak English.

25 Oct 2018 12:35:58
Poch didn't speak English.

{Ed002's Note - Yes he did, he just would not do interviews in English.}

25 Oct 2018 13:08:44
Maybe so ed. But the same issue would be encountered with zidane.

{Ed002's Note - So?}

25 Oct 2018 14:04:04
That doesn't mean I want Jardim Ed, was just saying and you corrected me.

If i'm honest everything seems such a mess I wouldn't know who I'd want. So sacking Jose, is that going to help?

{Ed002's Note - This has been done to death.}

25 Oct 2018 15:24:07
Picking a manager is undoubtedly difficult. I'm not envious and don't pretend to know the answer. However Emery at Arsenal proves that relatively instant change can be achieved even with a manager that many of the club's supporters would not have made first choice. United as a club seem intent on making transition a large part of its current culture. This is to some degree made worse by the relentless coverage of Scholes' comments and the media's love of our problems.

Emery obviously hasn't proved anything significant yet, however he's heading in the team in the right direction with football that's superb at times - these are feelings I haven't experienced at United or watching the box for years! Clubs mocked by United supporters are now leaving us standing in the slow lane.

Re the Jardim argument, it didn't prevent Poch from progressing at Spurs and arguably in his early days Bielsa starting well at Leeds. Leeds back in the Prem with us struggling will only make life much worse. Our third nemesis getting the three fingers from Jose!

I've no doubt other managers in different countries didn't speak the native language before experiencing success. For me its not just about language fit, its about finding a manager whose own footballing philosophy and 'aura' match that of United. Jose has been at United for three years. That's plenty of time for Jardim to learn English and to have a positive cultural and footballing impact. I don't see anything to lose other than Glazer money on a Jose pay off. Jardim also has some fabulous youngsters in the squad and on its edges to nurture making his appointment even more attractive.

United is also a cosmopolitan squad, with Spanish almost as important as English. Quite frankly having a manager whose press conferences are made more passives by translation may make a refreshing change whilst also removing a lot of the negative media attention that hangs over the manager's words and scowl. At the moment every United match is overshadowed by what Jose has to say before it. Its just tedious beyond words.

25 Oct 2018 14:23:32
Rhetorical Ed. Course its been done to the death.

25 Oct 2018 15:18:00
Most of the players in our squad don't use english as their first language, maybe jardim could find one suitable to communicate with them in.

{Ed002's Note - It is like some sort of joke reading all of this nonsense.}

25 Oct 2018 16:12:16
Thanks ed, appreciate the feedback.

25 Oct 2018 16:25:31
What about talking to; all the people at the hotel he'll live in? The driver of the private cars? The press? Staff at old Trafford? Staff at Carrington? The directors themselves? That's just considering his work what about if he goes out for a meal? To the shop? Takes his family on a day out? Or when a fan trys to stop him and ask for a photo then calls him all the names under the sun on social media just because he didn't understand? Whilst it might not have a massive impact on his ability to coach the team it will affect his everyday life. or is the main requirement for a man utd nanager that he be surly unhappy and not like being in Manchester? Because if that's the case I don't think we'll find anyone better. There has to be a clear plan if we are to change not just let it be knee jerk and go for the latest big name. Like both eds have said there are more than just the manager that needs solving. The players need rules the recruitment needs looking at and most importantly something needs to be done about the problems getting to games on time.

25 Oct 2018 18:11:37
Well whatever language he is using at the moment, it doesn't seem to be working too well 😂.

25 Oct 2018 20:14:47
I would love leonardo jardim, he plays attacking football, has shown good tactical knowledge and has brought through youth players.

I accept he might not speak good English, if any at all, but with Herrera, mata, degea, rojo, Sanchez all speaking Spanish as well as the club being able to bring in translators I don’t see communication being a problem.

Anything that takes us back towards our cloud traditions of brining through youth, wing play and attacking football will be a move in the right direction.

Don’t get me wrong though, changing manager will not be a miricale cure. We need to modernise our structure, we need a coherent plan (scouting, style of play, short term, medium term and long term targets) .

At the moment we are like a lottery winner who accepts the publicity to announce their win. Everybody knows we are cash rich, that we will over pay and that we don’t know true class/ quality from an overpriced sparkly piece of crap.

In my personal opinion I would like to Jose move on. He is a bad fit for the club, he doesn’t really want to be here and the board won’t give him what he needs to succeed. On that basis it is best for all parties to part way and ideally now so the new manager can come in now and assess the squad between now and Xmas. He then will know what he needs in the transfer market. Why let Jose spend money and then sack him in March.

26 Oct 2018 08:27:28
Could Robson and Venables speak Spanish when they took their respective Barcelona posts? Genuine question if anyone knows.

{Ed002's Note - I truly, truly hope that you all get the non-English speaking manager with no relevant experience and know nothing about, but have the Kleenex out for.}

26 Oct 2018 08:44:58
I don't understand why people think we should drop mourinho for another manager who would initially struggle in Manchester. I have no problem looking at Jardim from a coaching side but he doesn't speak English, he wouldn't only interact with man utd personnel he'd have to live in Manchester (or at least England) so would struggle to settle until he learnt the language. if he learnt it, how many players over the years have struggled living abroad because they are unwilling or unable to learn the native language, look at bale for god's sake, the same could happen with a manager and the wed
'd be in exactly the situation we're in now with a manager not entirely happy in Manchester. That's not to say Jardim would be a bad appointment but it needs to be considered properly not just because he's available.

26 Oct 2018 09:49:56
Does Jardim speak Spanish? Pretty sure he is Portuguese. He has had a good run at Monaco and looks to be a very good manager. However, there are many different factors to being successful as a manager. This is heightened at our club because there are other issues behind the scenes.

We have no leadership or sense of direction coming from above. We need a director of football to help guide the club and give us a footballing plan and sense of direction.

We have several players it would seem who either don't want to be at our club or consider themselves bigger than our club. We need to root out any disruptive influences in the dressing room to create a better harmony around the team.

We need to continue to overhaul our scouting network. Since Sir Alex retired we have signed over 500m worth of players, yet we seem to be getting very little value for money. Many of the signings have either struggled or been a poor choice of signing as they were never going to fit into the culture of the EPL or England, or the style the manager wants to play. Millions wasted by poor signings and I don't think it's fair or even factually correct to just hang the poor signings around the next of the manager who was in charge at the time of signing them. Good managers aren't always good scouts.

Then we need to find a manager who fits the identity of the club and can work well with our new DoF, the players and the scouting staff. Someone who will play good football, the United way.

Finally we the fans need to get behind the club, the management and the players. We need to show patience, and unwavering support even if we don't entirely agree with every decision. We can't get on the back of a manager or a player just because he isn't the one we wanted.

If we want to play like United we need to be United.

26 Oct 2018 10:48:52
Seemed to have changed your tune abit shappy? Not having a dig just a genuine question - why suddenly are you backing the manager? It is clear that he is not getting a tune out of the players, so why should we keep him?

26 Oct 2018 14:28:03
Yes park, shappy, I was under the impression that you wanted rid of Jose before.

26 Oct 2018 14:38:42
I'm not saying to keep him, but I fail to see the logic in sacking him until we have the rest of the house in order. If we give in to media pressure and sack him when they want it leaves a huge mess and no proper support or structure for the next manager.

That will likely undermine the next managers chance of succeeding and thus create an even bigger mess.

I never wanted Mourinho, and I've made that clear all along. However, I have backed him for his first two years. At the end of last season I could see that this season was likely to be a struggle and could end badly. So I wanted the change in the summer. That didn't happen, so now in my opinion it is best to stick with Mourinho until the end of the season. That is unless his position becomes untenable, in which case we should have a temporary management set up until the necessary plans are in place to make a full time appointment.

I don't think this season will work out well with Mourinho, however, changing managers mid season while everything else is in limbo would mean just digging ourselves deeper into the s**t.

So now we need to ride it out as best we can. We will have to accept poor negative football for the time being. It ain't pretty, but it's the path we have chosen.

26 Oct 2018 10:20:34
Ed 002, I truly, truly have no idea what you are on about. I was asking a genuine question, my interest having been piqued by the discussion about managers being able to speak the language of the club they were going to manage. I don't want Jardim, I agree that would be silly if he doesn't speak the language. My question was, were Barcelona silly to appoint those two (El Tel and Robson) or did they speak Spanish when they signed? It's a reasonable question but your default seems to be to try to belittle people who are genuinely trying to engage in polite discussion, which is of course your prerogative, if a little bit childish.

{Ed002's Note - Take it to the European page and I can explain. It is nothing to do with Manchester United and why are you asking if you are unlike the others who wan’t someone who struggles to speak English as their new manager.}

26 Oct 2018 16:40:22
shappy

You make a very valid point about getting our house in order and restructuring the club before making a decision. I was a big Jose fan but he has taken us as far as he can imo. The club aren’t going to back him/ didn’t buy who he wanted in the summer so what’s the point in holding on to him? We have some very good attacking and flair players and yet we can’t even break down the likes of derby at home. I can’t see us finishing any higher than 6th. Another manager may not win the league with this squad, but I’m pretty damn sure that he would get the attack firing to a higher level than Jose has.

Some of our players aren’t ‘bad’ players. They are just extremely low on confidence and are suffering under these tactics. I feel we should be looking to change the manager to at least have a slim chance of salvaging what is left of this nightmare season. An attack of martial, rashford, Sanchez, Lukaku supported by pogba and mata should be blowing teams away. Add Fred and pereira to it and you have the makings of a very strong midfield and attack.

Defence is still a problem but look how arsenal are performing. Poor defence so they compensate with attack. Credit to arsenal they restructured their club brilliantly to cope with the departure of Wenger. Granted they aren’t coming from a position of winning the league so any improvement by emery will be seen in a positive light. But they still planned properly. We are a joke. This club has been run so poorly for far too long. But by changing the manager to someone who can improve what’s on the pitch is always the first step for me. Then look to invest in a proper DoF.

26 Oct 2018 19:01:06
And what happens if your preferred choice for DoF doesn't get along or is able to work well with the manager you have just signed on a 4 year contract?
Do you sack a manager months into a contract or do you try and get two people who don't work well together to try and work together?
Would the new manager not want to sign his own players in January. We could then be stuck with expensive signings from another past manager when he leaves.

There are no guarantees, we could sack Jose hire someone else and still finish 6th. We might lose all our games 4-3. The new manager will have his preferred players, his favourites and those he doesn't trust.

For me until we have a DoF to find and hire the next manager I feel we are better at sticking with what we have. Bare in mind Woodward has hired Moyes, LvG and Mourinho.

The best option if Jose has to leave before next summer is to have McKenna and Carrick take over on a temporary basis. But then what happens when the new manager does take over will McKenna and Carrick be happy to go back to their previous roles or will we lose two young talented coaches.

26 Oct 2018 19:03:28
I have no idea when or if the Club will appoint a DoF. I have no idea if or when this happens we'll appoint the right person. Call me old fashioned but I still rather like the idea of a manager choosing his own players. I like the simplicity of a manager sitting down with his chairman and having a honest and frank conversation about what is required, how much money is available and what is achievable or not as the case may be. I still like the idea of honesty, co-operation and respect. A story of two men working together for the good of the Club. Call me naive but I like the thought that if promises are broken or relationships sour that honourable men will do the right thing for the good of the Club. Mourinho knew a bottomless pit of money didn't exist at Utd. He knew it would have to be spent intelligently and wisely. He knew his great adversary would be lavished with riches he could only dream of. He knew our great Club was located in a dull, cloudy, rainy corner of the North of England. He knew we had fallen behind, he knew he was inheriting an average and unbalanced squad. But Mourinho had also heard about Northern grit and determination, about an old stadium filled to capacity and dripping in history; A place where ghosts from the past still come together for a quiet kick about under the flood lights and chew the fat. A place where they are still young, a place where they still play on in the memory of everyone that was fortunate enough to see them play. We are a special Club and he knew all this before he came.

Our current plight has nothing to do with not having a DoF. Bad choices have been made, players have not developed or fulfilled their potential and constant public floggings and arguments with the board has resulted in a divided, demoralised and under achieving squad.

We all know how this ends. The Club have set a precedent after all, we don't need a crystal ball. The football will remain turgid, results will remain inconsistent, the board paralysed by indecision. January will come and go. No new players will arrive as the board can't decide if they back the manager or not. Jose mood will darken, there will be more falls outs, more egotistical ramblings, until the day comes when we can no longer make the top 4 and the axe will fall.

We don't need a DoF we already have a winning formula. All that is needed is a short history lesson, a tour of the museum and a visit to the old stadium stadium after dark, whilst the City sleeps to watch some ghosts play football the right way, the Manchester United way for they are our past and our future. Our football heritage, our DNA.

26 Oct 2018 19:28:53
Funny enough RWWD, Sir Bobby Robson is one of the reasons our very own manager got into football as a interpreter. So there lies your answer.

26 Oct 2018 22:58:51
Shappy you say we wait until we appoint a DoF before we appoint a new manager. We’ve been trying to appoint one since 2016. I appreciate that it’s a process and these things should not be rushed, but we don’t seem any closer to appointing one. Please correct me if I am wrong ed.

So what do we do? Do we persist with someone who doesn’t want to be at the club, who clearly is unhappy and who is not improving the side or producing any identity or style of play. Or do we try and get some sort of excitement and good feeling back into the club by appointing someone who will entertain the fans and unite us together through positivity, exciting football? It’s a no brainer. Everything surrounding the club is depressing at the moment. The first step would be to get the team performing better on the pitch.

Let’s enjoy watching united again. Sure we may not finish above 6th even if we change the manager. But investing in someone who is willing to build and work with the current group of players is much more attractive than a manager who complains consistently about his own players. There is a lot of talent here and if a new manager can get them playing anywhere near it’s potential then results will improve dramatically. A director of football can be worked around the manager imo. Perhaps appointing someone who has worked under a DoF structure would be the logical step to take.

27 Oct 2018 10:11:40
So what your suggesting then Park is to trust in Ed Woodward to hire a manager who'll play good entertaining football?

Rather than sign a manager with a big profile who'll help sell the club to corporations to enable the club to get new sponsorship deals.

If we put Moyes down to Sir Alex then the two managers Ed Woodward has brought to the club have been LvG and Mourinho, both managers with a big reputation and profile and both play negative football.

Hardly encouraging if we are relying on him to bring in our next manager.

He will go for Zidane, he can bring him to the club without paying compensation. He has a huge profile and will help the club sign new sponsorship deals.

However, Zidane doesn't speak English. He will demand signing his own players. He has never truly been tested. He has done well in Europe but has been underwhelming in the league. And that's in a far less competitive league than the EPL. Is Zidane able to improve players? I'm not sure anyone improved under him at Real Madrid. He just had a fantastic group of players headed up by the likes of Ronaldo at his peak, Modric, Bale, Kroos and Ramos.


Zidane would be a disaster signing for us. And he is the likely candidate if Ed Woodward gets to pick our next manager.

That's why I feel it is best if we hold off as long as we can until a man with some football knowledge is in place to hire our next manager.

27 Oct 2018 12:59:41
Shappy I understand your point about Woodward, but l honestly can’t see how you think that keeping mourinho is of benefit at all. He has shown that he is teetering on the edge of a full blown implosion and his consistent reference to lack of signings and winning three premier leagues is becoming particularly tiresome and embarrassing. Keeping him would do more good than bad if the board aren’t willing to back him over January and the summer.

Yeh Woodward will probably go for zidane. Personally I don’t think he is a good fit either. But you can’t argue that zidane wouldn’t get us playing better football. There is no way that our attackers are this poor. Sanchez does not become this poor a player over night. When you see so many attacking players looking so average the common denominator is clearly the manager. We are at risk of losing players such as martial and De Gea, with the latter being a travesty if we do. Do we risk keeping mourinho and then lose out on keeping these players because they don’t want to play for him? What benefit is that to the club? Especially from a financial point it is a poor deal.

I refuse to believe that a new manager can’t get more out of the current group of players. Sure, I do agree that we will probably encounter similar problems in terms of purchasing players if a director is not appointed. But at least we would have a manager who will work with the players and aim to maximise that potential within the squad, rather than beating them down. Poch, jardim and even Blanc would get more from this squad than Jose. Even zidane would. That’s my point. No logical reason to keep Jose apart from not having to pay his compensation. Unless he is bought a new defence, I cannot see him turning this around to be honest.

27 Oct 2018 13:21:41
A typo in the post above - keeping Jose would do more bad than good*.

27 Oct 2018 17:37:33
In the short term from now until the end of the season we would likely see an up lift. But it will be short lived if we don't hire the right person. We could then be lumbered with the new managers expensive signings that don't fit into what the club or the next manager wants. We would then have to sack him and pay his compensation.
That would then be 4 managers in 6-7 years and the club will start to have a bad reputation, the best managers won't want to come to our club. We are then stuck in an endless cycle of having to hire second tier managers rather than the best, then when they fail to succeed we first them and the downward spiral continues.

Sacking Mourinho now and replacing him might be best for the next 8 months, however sticking with him might be better for the next 3-5 years.

We as fan have been shortsighted once before in our recent past in pushing for LvG to be sacked and we are reaping the rewards for that now. Maybe we need to try a different tact if we want a different outcome.