Manchester United Banter Archive November 26 2018

 

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26 Nov 2018 22:32:29
A famous philosopher once said culture eats strategy for breakfast. We once had a great culture throughout our club, all players were fighters and winners, when a new arrived he either embraced it or was gone. This culture was embedded by SAF and with this culture our strategy was easy always fight for every ball and until the end. Now we have a culture of big wages, no pride and no responsibility to the fans or the club. Without a leader to set the tone to enforce the strategy we are in serious trouble as when new players arrive they too, just accept the culture. Until a manager arrives and refuses to accept the lazy culture and remove those who promote it we are stuck. A strong leader must step forward and tell players this isn't good enough for Man Utd and you either work or you are out. SAF always had that power and players new if you weren't up to it he would get rid, our current crop don't have that respect for the manager and until the board either change for a strong manger or back the current one by selling the lazy ones causing the problems we will go around in circles.

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{Ed025's Note - good post that redcon..

26 Nov 2018 22:53:49
Good post redcon. Unfortunately I think that left with SAF. He was the implementer of that culture. He did the job of 5 men. when he left that left with him and the club were unable to replace what he did. His voice was the one common voice right through the club. Now we have a number of different voices. SAF was a manager, Jose is just a head coach.

For all the greatness of SAF, him leaving left us in this unusual position that I feel we are only starting to catch up to now.

I look at Wenger and the way Arsenal went about putting in place a number of different people before his departure, therefore being better placed to cope with the loss of such a man, one who micro managed many aspects of the club.

Gill and SAF left at the one time, and therefore left us in a strange place.

The role that we need filling is DOF, but it is an incredibly difficult position to fill.

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26 Nov 2018 22:57:06
Isn’t that what Jose is doing? Except the players aren’t responding and hanging him out to dry.

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26 Nov 2018 22:58:26
furthermore, Jose has told the club to sell Pogba, Martial etc and apparently they won’t. Jose’s position is untenable and not for reasons just on the pitch.

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26 Nov 2018 23:11:41
Really good post mate. I remember reading a while ago that Fergie had 5 players in the dressing room that would set the tone and make sure new players bedded in and were ‘kept in line’ so to speak. I think it was Neville, Vidic, Rio, Rooney and Evra. Jose doesn’t have that. This is partly down to his own mouth running him into trouble by criticising his players in the media and partly down to the players not believing in what he is doing. It is also partly down to the some of players simply not being good enough. How many winners do we actually have in the squad? How many players have won championships? Very few. That is telling.

A part of me feels like we need a clean slate and we get rid of the weak and troublesome players by backing the manager. But the overriding feeling is that the manager can’t turn this around and that he has to go. Some very good players who are looking so average. Too many top quality players for it to only be a player problem. Manager has to shoulder the responsibility. In all my years supporting united I’ve never been so disengaged and so disinterested in a united team. I missed the game Saturday and didn’t even both to watch the highlights. By the sounds of it I didn’t miss much.

It is really tough at the moment. The media storm isn’t helping things and in the new social media age it’s difficult not to flare up when negativity and hysteria is there at your very fingertips on smartphones and tablets. It’s impossible to switch off after a terrible performance but re emerge with hope and excitement that we will be watching our united again on a European night or down at the pub with our mates. It is awful going into work on that Monday morning after another abject and disgraceful performance by a bunch of overpaid players who care more how many views they have on Instagram rather than that badge on their chest. It’s difficult not to get infuriated when the manager comes out with an even more absurd and ludicrous comment each time he steps into the press conference room.

Redcon is right. We have lost our heart. We have lost our way and we no longer have the culture which was ingrained to the very core of our club. We always give our all, we always fight till the end and we always play to entertain those who spend their hard earned cash to watch united week in week out. I know like many I have become disillusioned with it all. Football isn’t ‘fun’ anymore for me. The money has taken away the romanticism and almost innocence of the game. But that is something we have to accept. Likewise we have to accept that winning comes with peaks and troughs. Sometimes I look back at the Fergie era and wish I had savoured every single one of those moments much more dearly. That goal by Rooney, the last minute goal in 99, scholes’ goal v Barcelona and that champions league shootout against Chelsea. That was the real Manchester United. The one which we have all come to know and love.

This current predicament is not what the club is about. We all have different views on what we should do. Some agree and some don’t. But at the end of the day we all want the same thing. I’ve had a few days to digest the current situation and I just wanted to put my thoughts down. Apologies for the long post and apologies if it is emotional. Manchester United is a huge part of my life. I used to go regularly and I would not miss a game for anything. But It’s so difficult to support the team when you struggle to identify with them. But we have to stick together. We have to try and be united. Even if we cannot bare to sit through the horrific football. We must not turn on each other. We have enough rubbish from opposition fans so we cannot start any infighting. I like most people have no clue what is going to happen. This season is a right off for me. I have my views on what we should do, and who we should appoint (Poch) . Until then, we cop the banter from rival fans on the chin. We get behind the team and we stick together. It’s us against them. And if the players and manager cannot see this, then it is time they get shown the door. That is what Manchester United is about.

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{Ed025's Note - i enjoyed that park mate..

26 Nov 2018 23:51:33
Great post Redcon.

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27 Nov 2018 06:46:10
Redcon

Good post. The thing is that if, as in summer or apparently now, they don’t back the manager to be firm and sort it out, make tough decisions, what makes anyone think they will with another manager? It may just be my impression but remembering Mourinho saying he was more a head coach than manager, it looks from the outside, like someone is making decisions and won’t do everything the manager wants. Like Gary Neville said who is making the decisions?

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27 Nov 2018 11:45:39
Redman, problem is mourinho hasn't been either a head coach or a manager this season, he seems to be on a one man mission to protect his reputation exemplified by the fact the man keeps wagging three fingers at anyone he can.

Treble at inter, three premier league titles at chelsea, three premier leagues more than all managers combined. All great achievements but they just show a man living off of past glories who can wait to be given the boot.

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27 Nov 2018 18:32:57
Living In the past? Champion of England 3 years ago and won two major trophies 18 months ago. Living off past glories, really, how do you describe Poch and Klopp then? Ancient past glories? i like what both do but it hasn’t yet included any winning.

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Watford v Liverpool - A Liverpool Perspective

26 Nov 2018 12:47:45
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new article entitled, Watford v Liverpool - A Liverpool Perspective

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26 Nov 2018 12:24:10
Good morning all. Long time reader, non poster. Have to have my say on all the negative comments on here and across a number of different forums.
My reaction to Utd's dismal display was like most. I was disgusted. I really don't know what I am watching sometimes. My grievances don't ly with Jose but the inability of the players that take to the field week in week out. There seems to be more concern within them to there social media accounts and their own images. I agree whole heartedly with Jose's comments about "lacking heart". No heart or passion on show in any of the Utd play whatsoever on Saturday, but then there was a flat, stale atmosphere in OT from the get go. Keano was right about the prawn sandwich brigade and the touring supporters. I know it's only Palace, but they always bring a game to Utd, home and away and 9 times out of ten, we always come up with the goods. But without heart you have nothing as obviously shown on Saturday afternoon.

This brings me back to the players and leadership within the group. When was the last time you seen a Utd player lambaste a team mate? I can't recall. Maybe this is more symptomatic of the world we now live in that we have to watch every word we say so as to not upset some snow flake. I've never been shy in work to give the tongue lashing when required, I've been on the end of many through the years also, never took offence but brought out the best of me for the team. We're not seeing the best of these players as they are all nicey nicey, soft individuals with no heart or balls. Jose wasn't nice to Shaw for a couple of seasons and in fairness to him, he took it on board and is now showing his worth. Martial is showing glimpses but still has half a sulk on him. Don't see the conviction. Pogba, undoubted quality but jogs about with his head up his backside, flitting in and out of games. When former players and pundits criticise the team as individuals, rather than showing a reaction they react on social media. Spineless.
Remember the days of Kevin Moran, it was as if a bandage was part of his kit. Robson, Bruce, Vidic, Keano, these guys put their head in where you wouldn't put your foot. These were leaders, winning leaders with qualities that brought the best out of themselves and those around them. These guys were the foundation of winning teams. The last leader imo was Ibra, we've won nought since he left. Who within the group has that leadership quality/ ability? None from what I see. You can't blame JM for that. Take Bailey for instance, when at Villarreal he was that guy that put the body on the line, lead the team from the back. That's what Utd invested in. Where did that go? He lost something. Jones also had the winner takes all mentality but unfortunately not the quality.
Where is Sanchez gone? The guy gets the bones of 2mill a month and he is a shadow of the player he was. This is down to effort and work rate IMO. There should be real headaches for JM atm with all players fit and available, training should be at a real high tempo now with all putting in 110% to get into the team and squad but then you see Sat and they ain't at it whatsoever.
Ultimately this is all going to fall on JM and be viewed upon as his failure, but players need to stand up, show character, bravery and leadership in order to turn this ailing season around.

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26 Nov 2018 13:18:14
Couldn’t have put it better myself mate.

I’ve said it a 1000 times, when things between Mou and pogba were all over the media I wouldn’t have sacked pogba and shown the players that Mou is the man in charge here not some french Becks wannabe.

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26 Nov 2018 13:20:33
I'm not sure Sanchez issues are down to a lack of work rate, the bloke is struggling for form but he puts a shift in.
We do look void of leaders but as was pointed out the other day is matic not a leader, lukaku looks one for Belgium and pogba was for France during the WC.
Them 3 also look better players for the national team from the outside there looks to be a lot wrong with the dynamics of the team at the moment .

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26 Nov 2018 13:57:17
Bailly is struggling because he isn't making last ditch tackles, Sanchez is struggling because he isn't working hard enough. Have you watched either of them?

Also palace never bring the game to us especially at OT, this was literally the 1st PL point they earned at OT.

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26 Nov 2018 14:02:40
Also it's funny how no one said this of the players when they helped us overturn the game at City last season or Newcastle, Bournemoth, Juventus this season. It's all the players fault never the manager's for some.

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26 Nov 2018 14:48:52
The thing about leadership is that it starts from the top down. When the manager fails to convince the players of the merits of their approach, it’s far more difficult for the players to motivate themselves.

This is what we are currently seeing, an approach to football that is outdated and negative, and players who are unmotivated to perform because they can see the manager’s approach isn’t working and he doesn’t listen to their complaints. When we fail Jose blames the players, when we succeed he takes the credit.

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26 Nov 2018 15:29:13
Welcome, mate. But you said it yourself, Bailly was a leader-type in Spain. He doesn't suddenly not have that. Which makes me think, the problem lies elsewhere.

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26 Nov 2018 18:43:25
Lorco89

Well done for putting your head over the parapet.

It looks like some players are having the equivalent of a hissy footstamping fit, but they probably think, even believe that this action will see the manager sacked. Some also probably think the decision maker is likely to fold and give in. They wouldn’t have thought that when Gill and SAF were together but further back there was unbelievable pressure on the manager in 89. Someone had cohones back then, but have they got that now or does the same give in attitude run higher than the team?

Players can fold under pressure, not be the players they were elsewhere, it has happened many times. Just because one was a leader type when in a small pool doesn’t mean they will at Old Trafford. Perhaps Character is more important than media clicks and social profile?

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26 Nov 2018 19:00:22
He's on the decline, Red Man. Just accept it. Happens to us all.

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26 Nov 2018 19:49:28
The excuses are laughable!

Klopp Guardiola Sean Dyche Eddie Howe etc players have no problem playing for them despite not winning anything with em except Guardiola and their style being demanding physically compare to Mournho.

u could give mourinho benifit of doubt and blame players but this has happen in he's previous job too, not once but twice so defending mourinho here and blaming players is laughable.

Red man love your passion and get it why u defend mourinho because of he's previous success and u think he'll turn it around given time and more funds from owners, at the same time w/ he's pedigree whoever replaces him wouldn't be as good as him.

But u forget to acknowledge that w/ all that success in his CV there are some huge huge failures attach too.

When things have gone wrong he could/ has never turned it around, in fact it just gets worse, so all the best guys
👍.

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26 Nov 2018 20:21:55
Kopitef dare I say you are talking sense.

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26 Nov 2018 20:29:24
Im not blind and i know Mou is the main problem here, he should have never been given the job but now he has it and the faster he gets fired the better for us. Howe, Poch will do a much better job than "The special one". Of course we need to get rid of some players as well.

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26 Nov 2018 21:05:01
Redman
Some managers can fold as well .

If Jose gets the sack and he might it will be the third job in a row that he has been sacked .

Pep and most good managers more on Jose is on a downwards spiral .

The club is nothing like the United of 89 and Jose ain't fergy.

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26 Nov 2018 22:08:51
Redman
Lvg had a great cv, good with Holland, good with barce unbelievable with Ajax. Ajax really was a special time .
Good with the kids, from all accounts had a major influence on our youth set up .
Finished his last season with United joint 4th and fa cup winners .
Why did you want him sacked yet Jose can do no wrong?

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27 Nov 2018 06:55:36
LvG should have been part of a plan to bring Pep in, set up a structure and yes I said that at the time. It became obvious it wasn’t and there was no plan. I would disagree on lvg’s cv but you may look at cv’s different to others. I supported LvG longer than nearly everyone else as well but he brought in mediocrity.

I have never said Jose can do no wrong, he has made mistakes but there are a lot of problems left by three previous managers and I think we need to have someone at the helm with the right cv. My problem is there doesn’t appear to be anywhere near enough support for Mourinho, the summer window was very poor, I don’t think they are buying the players he wants, just the positions and not even all those and are likely waiting until we can’t make top four to sack him. It will save the club money, like with Moyes and LvG, it seems all about money. I think Jose is a dead man walking unless the board get 100% behind him and it is sad too see the state of our club, a club that seems to lack leadership.

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27 Nov 2018 09:13:59
Redman
You didn't answer the question, why did you want LVG sacked, and yet Jose can do no wrong .

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27 Nov 2018 18:54:59
Jred

I supported LvG until it became untenable regardless of whether he won the cup. I was not in favour of his appointment but supported like I have with Jose, longer than most, if not all, on here, to the point where as with Mourinho I was accused of being an LvG fan or apologist. I am sure you can find my posts where I explained why I felt it was sadly the time to part company.

As to Mourinho, “yet Jose can do no wrong”. Oh dear, I think he has made mistakes, he is human and as I have said I am not a fan of his, however don’t put words down to me that I have never said.

He has demonstrated his ability to win, has the cv and from my perspective is not being fully supported from above. Therefore I don’t think it is the right time to sack him, but
“Do no wrong” is inaccurate. Inaccuracy is not new for you though is it.

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Premier League Preview Burnley v Newcastle United Palace 26 November 2018

26 Nov 2018 08:55:31
{Ed's Note - Reid the Red has posted a new article entitled, Premier League Preview Burnley v Newcastle United Palace 26 November 2018

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26 Nov 2018 06:38:02
Ed's, can you shed some light onto why Bailly isn't playing?

Will the club look to sell him?
Thanks.

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{Ed002's Note - He is one of a number of players the coach has available and perhaps in the summer they would be open to him leaving if he is not getting the game time he wants.}

26 Nov 2018 07:59:46
That cruyff turn against liverpool was the beginning of the end for him.

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26 Nov 2018 08:01:46
Cheers ED0002.

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26 Nov 2018 12:26:03
he is our best cb. says it all when he isn't even liked.

we are in a mess.

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26 Nov 2018 16:41:26
I agree bolger2, its sums up our predicament.

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Review Of The Day 26th November 2018

26 Nov 2018 07:29:01
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new article entitled, Review Of The Day 26th November 2018

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