Manchester United Banter Archive July 27 2014

27 Jul 2014 22:09:07
Well from what we are seeing in the press and from all the whispers and rumours it would appear we have three targets.

Vidal, Hummels and Vermaelen. So that a couple of centre backs and a box to box midfielder. So my question is say all three were unavailable for one reason or another who would you like to see signed instead of those three?

For me I would go with Verratti, De Vrij and Inigo Martinez.

They may not have the experience of Vidal, Hummels and Vermaelen but in a couple of years they have the potential to be just as good. And imo in our current state much easier to attain than the afformentioned trio.

So who would you go for?

27 Jul 2014 22:55:55
Good question Shappy. Personally I would target Khedira, as I think we need some steel and experience in midfield, Benatia, however unlikely, and De Vrij. Failing that, Matuidi, Lars or Sven Bender, Strootman, or even another raid on Southampton for Schneiderlin would be very good options for the midfield role. For centre back I feel there are far fewer really safe options other than Hummels, Benatia, Inigo Martinez, or Subotic. Vermaelen would be a risk since he has barely played, and Van Dijk and De Vrij are very inexperienced.

I would go all out for Vidal and hummels if I'm honest. Would be more than happy to pay about 45 for Vidal and 35 for hummels. Then if I'm honest I would like to see someone like vermaelen, maybe rojo or even howedes, a left sided play to play left centre back. Veratti is far to lightweight. If we were to look for a Vidal alternative for me it would be carvalho, mascherano, schweinsteger or matuidi.

Carvalho javi martinez and De Vrij.

8ut if we go for Verrati I am sure the club will also a buy a strong player such as Strootman

But What if Vidal doesn't want to leave Juve or if he does he only wants to go to Bayern? What if Hummels is only willing to leave Dortmund for Barcelona?
We can offer them the world but if they don't want to come then there's nothing we can do but look elsewhere. Occasionally we have benefited from this, one of the Italian teams basically sent us a signed blank cheque for Paul Scholes, be he didn't want to leave for anyone.

Gilly, there are some other options. I like you think Schneiderlin could be a shrewed move. Benatia would also be high on my list but he could be just as tricky to get as Hummels. I wouldn't move for either of the Bender brothers to be honest, I feel they are a little too limited for the role that LvG seemingly wants. Granit Xhaka could be worth a look too or Axel Witsel. But I wouldn't move for Strootman until next summer at the earliest. Even if he could pass a medical, having missed so much football and having no pre-season he is at least 6 months away from being fully match fit and match sharp, rehabilitating a player form such a bad injury while also trying to get him to adapt to a new team and a new league is just asking for trouble.

Brad I think some of your midfield choices are too defensive and offer very little to nothing going forward. If we were playing 433 then that would be fine, but the plan seems to be to play 343 which needs two players in midfield who can get from box to box defend and create.

CB wise the only top players who might be available aside from Hummels (who looks Barca bound) are Benatia, Marquinhos and Varane.

If we can't sign Vidal we should go for Javi Martinez, Carvalho, Pogba, Strootman or Verratti.

I think we'll sign Vermaelen.

I think it's important though that we sign one top drawer player to make a statement - and on that basis we should go all out for Vidal.

28 Jul 2014 00:37:48
I agree on Benatia, but the I think of the three players, two ofthem, preferably the centre mid and one of the centre backs need to be reasonably experienced. Witsel would also be a very good option, completely forgot about him, but I haven't really seen enough of Xhaka to comment. About Lars and Sven Bender, I agree, but they would do a job in our midfield very well.

Benatia, vlaar and maybe hector Herrera, was very impressed with how he played for Mexico, I'm just wondering if him and Ander would compliment each other though. Ron vlaar would purely be for defensive stability and that he is used to our league, and benatia to be the quality centerback if the pursuit for hummels doesn't go to plan. There are better options of course but I've saved time and just picked 3 reasonable players.

Good point about some being too defensive shappy, I was thinking of it that we need a physical player in the middle to go along with the more lightweight Herrera and mata. In an ideal(dream) world it would be Vidal or schweinsteiger so we can have the physical attributes and the creative edge as well. However if we were to sign one of the others I mentioned before I'm sure van gaal would have them working hard on their creativity and their game going forward

If we don't get Vidal then we need to target experience. We need a captain desperately and somebody to take hold of the midfield. I think this is another time we need to spend big on somebody that isn't going to bring any sell on value (like RVP) and just do a great job for a couple of years and allow players to excel around them.

Schweinsteiger for me and I think he would be gettable for £30mil.

Schweinsteiger for me too, his performance in the World Cup Final was immense. The energy and passion he is is something we sorely miss, since Keane and Gaz Nev.

Defensively i'd opt for De Vrij, and i'd even look at Gary Medel, he was a rock for Chile through the World Cup. i'd only go for these if we got a Hummels or Vermaelen though.

28 Jul 2014 13:58:29
I have to agree with Sambo and the Beast about Schweinsteiger. As I said above, we need some experience with Evra, Vidic and Ferdinand leaving. In the event that we don't sign Vidal, he would be a perfect alternative, and with such an important position the resale value is almost irrelevant.

27 Jul 2014 19:37:35
Can you see us going for Cavani?

I can't really see it as I don't see where we fit him in and isn't the priority positions to be filled at the moment. Just my humble opinion though.

I don't think so. Of the 20 or so times I have watched him he has done next to nothing and we don't need another striker this season.

Probably just agent talk. But I think PSG have a problem with FFP and also the rules in France are different with outside EU players (I think maybe somebody can clarify 3 players permitted to start?), so wouldn't be surprised to see him move on, my bet would be City or Chelsea.

27 Jul 2014 18:29:53
If we look to be playing 532 / 352 / 3412 / 343 with the inference our 3 best and highest profile players would be Mata behind Rooney and RVP how much game time will Januzaj get this term? And where? As a number 10?

Speculation / thoughts / crystal ball gazing welcomed.

Know it's difficult to gauge what our final formation will be until LVG has amassed the First XI he thinks is capable of winning the Prem. Perhaps we are seeing 352 now for example as that's the easiest way to accommodate the 3 most forward players mentioned and recognises we lack a mature world class pacey winger.

Interesting times ahead tho. And at least in LVG we have someone with the tactical nouse to get the job done and the medals on his chest from previous campaigns to command instant and absolute respect.

My crystal ball is telling me that we will occasionally use 523 with 2 out and out wingers whenever there's an injury or we need to change it up.

Januzaj will deputise for Mata in the No.10 position or we will play 343 with two wider players either side of a central striker.

So maybe a front three of Welbeck, RvP and Januzaj? Or maybe switch Welbeck for another wide player if we sign one. Maybe Depay.

I think we may sell chicharito and Januzaj could fill in as 4th choice striker aswell as playing a number 10 when needed, we will see us move to 4-3-3 in some games too

Shappy, with your assumption on januzai deputising for Mata do you then believe that kagawa will be sold (the obvious replacement for Mata).

Either that or him playing deeper. Kagawa has played in two games for LvG and he played in more of a No.8 role in both.

He played deeper in midfield yesterday with Nani in the No.10 role.

And when he played against LA Galaxy he played deeper and Herrera was pushed up into the No.10 role.

So that's twice Kagawa has been on the pitch with Mata being on the bench at the time and in both occasions he wasn't played as a No.10.

Maybe it was just LvG trying to crowbar everyone in so they could get some game time, or maybe he sees Kagawa as a deeper player, or maybe he just doesn't rate him all that highly and was favouring other players.

Only time will tell.

27 Jul 2014 14:46:51
Apparently, Ed is trying to find an official partner for official bids.

Hopefully it's Carlsberg!

27 Jul 2014 13:40:07
Playing this new system creates a different type of defensive drama to what we are used to when, in order to compensate for lack of speed, the defenders lie deeper. In the past we allowed teams plenty of the ball on the edge of our penalty area and it made for some exhilarating defensive stands. It often seemed we were extremely lucky to come out of games with a win.

As for the game in Denver, despite us not looking good, Roma did not have many chances either, at least until we took off our better players. And how much of the lack of cohesion was caused by playing without preparation at mile high? It's an adjustment, believe me. It's amazing how much it affects you. When I was in New Mexico last autumn I would repeatedly keep waking up through the night short of breath.

Thus far the pre-season is generally revealing what we already know. Cleverley is probably not good enough, Nani has lost it and we will be lucky to be able to get rid of him, Kagawa looks lightweight for the EPL and may be redundant depending on transfer activity, with Welbeck, RVP and Rooney ahead of him Chicharito could and should move on. There are players who now need to fulfill their potential like Rafael and Smalling. On the good side it looks like Mata, Herrera, Rooney, Welbeck, Jones, Evans, de Gea, Shaw and Valencia will form the basis of a pretty good and mobile team, with RVP, Janusaj and (a very big maybe) Fellaini to improve it.

As many have commented we will probably need a couple of marquee signings to challenge for the title.

I know you said it's a big if regarding Fellaini . I think it's a big big big if. The words mobility and Fellaini don't go together really .

27 Jul 2014 14:40:47
Second game of preseason in difficult conditions.Adapting to a new system along with wholesale changes in the second period coupled with youngsters been given a chance.Relax :)

27 Jul 2014 12:39:11
As Ed Woodward has come out and said money is no object my hope is that whenever we come to make an official bid for a player, we don't do what we have done in the past which is to assign a value to a player which is way below what the selling club will accept. last year for example who seriously thought that barcelona would accept £25/27 million for Fabregas.
Juventus know that we want Vidal so assuming we do make an official bid let's go in there with intent and make them an offer that they will find difficult to refuse rather than make a ridiculously low offer that will obviously be declined.

Ed woodwoody is a lier.
We was just covering his A**.

Allan - I agree to an extent; but did Barcelona not end up selling Fabregas for £27m?

On another note - does anybody know where Woodward ended up? I thought he'd left the tour to conduct some business? It's all a bit too much like last summer for my liking.

If reports are to be believed Woody is still trying to pull his head out his A***.

He has probably found some global sponser up his a-s-!

Agree red 7 but no way would barcelona have accepted £27 million last year when they didn't want to sell and the player didn't want to leave. Also fabregas 1 year further into his contract.

I told you guys before,
What woody said last week is a complete cover up.
All the things he said is to cover up.
He needed to save his a**.
He knows us fans are on his case.
There was no urgent business,
He went on vacation.
He are screwed just like last summer.
Vidal is staying or going to Munich,
Barca is already selling Hummels shirt and means he will not come to us.
Di Maria is going to PSG.
All our top targets are gone.
Really sad to see that.
"We want woodwoody out"
"We want woodwoddy out"
"We want woodwoody out"

Ash, where have you been my friend? We've missed your emotional outbursts. I can't make my mind up whether you are just a wind up merchant as your posts read like Ali G taking the p1ss. You do sound like an emotional teenager.

Let's wait until the end of August before we start the campaign to oust Woody.

Anyway, congratulations on launching the name he is now known by Woodwoody, very droll.

27 Jul 2014 18:42:24
What are people going to moan about when Ed brings in 'More' Names this Window

27 Jul 2014 11:57:22
ED I really get confused when people say that we need to keep Kagawa for marketing reasons.


I'm an Indian like in India so let's take an example that if an Indian player was to play for Manchester United.

(Analogous to a Japanese fan in Japan having a Japanese player playing for Man United)

Yes we would like to buy a jersey of an Indian Man United player but now that this is true we would buy a jersey of say a Wayne Rooney or a Robin Van Persie.

So the impact of having a local player's jersey available is fairly minimal to be honest. People out here would still buy jerseys of big stars like Rooney, RvP etc

As for impact of Asian players in the market of Asia, let me tell you not one fan in India would buy a jersey by Kagawa's name, they'd go for Rooney or RvP or Giggs etc.
(Not sure what Chinese, Korean etc fans would prefer but farther away from Japan I don't think people would buy a Kagawa jersey ahead of Rooney or RvP)


So I don't really buy into the notion that we will have to keep Kagawa for marketing reasons.

I agree Mumbai.

Good point Mumbai, I agree to an extent.

I'm not expert but I think it will be to do with more than just shirt sales. It will also be Sponsors, big Japanese companies or businesses with interests in Japan, TV rights and not to mention the 130million population. The mature economy of Japan will also help. I bet every Man Utd game is on Japanese TV, probably the same when Park was with us (South Korea).

Also having been to Japan a few times, when they are into something they go whole hog, they don't seem to do things by halves - I can imagine the amount of merchandise sold to one Japanese supporter would take 10 UK supporters to buy.

I disagree
The story about kagawa and his marketing in japan may or may not be true, but you can not compare that to any situation in india. Football is just starting here. It is lightyears behind cricket in terms of following.
And if in the future an indian does ever reach the heights of kagawa(german player of the year), there will be a war for his marketing in india.

Remember Park Ji Sung? Solid player for us but was never going to set the world alight. However, massive marketing win in Asia for us. However, the player has to play. Remember our Chinese experiment?

27 Jul 2014 10:42:21
Juventus seem quite detirmined to hang on to Vidal, and would rather sell Pogba.

PSG, want to sign Pogba but can't afford to with the FFP ruling unless they sell some players to balance the books.

So how about we sign Marco Verratti from PSG, thus bringing in enough cash for them to sign Pogba while keeping the books balanced. And allowing Juventus to sell Pogba to finance their summer spending.

True it means we miss out on Vidal, but we get Verratti who is one of the best young talents in the world. And we know how LvG likes young talent.

A midfield of Verratti Herrera and Mata looks very good and balanced.

Surely this way everyones a winner. If only things were that simple. Lol

Just been reading sly sports transfer centre, apparantly Juve want to extend Pogba's contract.
Good shout though, Verratti is going to be quality.

I'd have loved Veratti but a midfield of him, Herrera and Mata is too lightweight. There's no thug player in there to make a few challenges if one gets made on our guys. We need a player of similar ilk to Roy Keane right about now imo

Verrati will be a good alternativs but do we have any interest in him?

{Ed002's Note - Marco Verratti's move to PSG in the summer was unexpected as all indications were for a move to Juventus. If he were available there would be plenty of clubs interested, not least Juventus. There is some interest from Inter, Arsenal, Real Madrid and Monaco as well. PSG are looking to have him sign a new contract but will be prepared to let him go to Juventus as part of a deal for Pogba. Real Madrid will push if it looks like he is going to be available.}

Agree with Bennett.

Who among Verratti, Herrera or Mata would be able to stop a Yaya Toure?

Herbie, they have wanted to for around 6 months but they have been unable to reach an agreement atm. He only has a couple of years left on his contract and they would rather sell this summer rather than him having only a year left on his contract next summer.

So he will either sign a new contract this summer or Juve will look to get as much as they can for him. Ultimately though they will have to offload either several squad players or one big name in order to fund new signings this summer. So either sell Vidal or Pogba or sell 3/4 or 5 squad players.

Shappy
Yes I thought that was the case, I believe he will stay with Juve and Vidal will be sold(too us).
Unfortunate for UTD that fergie did'nt have faith in him.

Thanks Ed, it makes a lot of sense then if we buy Vidal and juves interest in Verrati could lead to psg buying Pogba.
It will be a good deal for all three clubs, well I hope this is how it turns out.

27 Jul 2014 08:48:24
Although I was a bit skeptical about this 3-5-2 formation, but after the 2 games we've played it looks as if this is the right way to go.

We desperately need a new CB. Evans, Smalling, Jones are all injury prone and Keane and Blackett could play around others.
Should go for De Vrij.

Blackett to me feels similar to Martins Indi.

And why did we not take Varela/Vermijl/Janko.
Young as RWB was awful(he ain't no dirk kuyt), Valencia was pathetic too. Atleast one or two should have been given a chance.

How many games would Nani get? He has been so poor the last one and a half seasons, he can't even pass the ball.

I am totally in love with our 3 man attack. Rooney, Mata and Welbeck have been so clinical and sharp.

It's a bit early to call but LVG seems to have improved Rooney's shooting. He missed so many last season, dragging them wide.

I do feel Blackett is too big to be a LWB, so for LvG to find the LCB role for him was pretty good. It may have just saved Blackett's MU career. He will not play many, if any games for the first team next season, but whether he stays in the U21's or goes out on loan, he now has a position to focus on. I suspect LvG will want the U21's to also play with three CB's at some stage.

27 Jul 2014 09:57:47
LvG will insist that the youth and reserve teams play the same formation as the first team. It was him that insisted they did it at Barca, and look how that's turned out for them. Youth and reserve team football is all about preparing the young players for first team football, how can they ve prepared for it if they have never played the same system as the first team.

I disagree with the idea that having seen last nights performance 3-5-2 is the right way to go. What did you see that made you think this was good, I'm not being critical of you just interested in what you saw and I missed?

From my perspective. We looked like one striker could stroll through us at ease, any clipped ball and we were all over the place. There was no link up between midfield and attack. Our wing backs didn't attack, nor did they defend. Our central striker was anonymous. This goes for both halves.

We were very luck to win and frankly had it not been for a class goal from Rooney and a couple of intricate bits of play we would have been soundly beaten. We genuinely looked devoid of ideas and looked very very poor defensively and offensively, ball retention was shocking as well.

I appreciate this is pre season and LVG is trying to get his ideas across to a new mixed team and that isn't easy, so I am not jumping to any quick conclusions for the future and it may well be we go this way. But to me there were very few positives aside from a couple of class moments from Rooney (who had played badly up until his goal).

Surely we need to see better before saying this is how we should play next season, I think we will play this way but based on last night we have to improve a great deal obviously?

Knowing how injury prone and reckless Rafael is I was surprised we did not take Janko/Vermijl/Varela.

27 Jul 2014 11:03:53
Beast last nights performance wasn't the greatest but it was just an extended training exercise. LvG made 10 subsitutions, that was far from our best line up during the whole game. And a lot of our players are learning a new role. Neither Valencia or Shaw have played as wing backs before, Shaw is young and trying to settle into a new team in a position different to what he has known before. Valencia has never been a defender and is learning a whole new role. Herrera was the only midfielder of note who played last night, we all know Cleverley isn't good enough regardless of the formation, and in the second half we had Lingard and Kagawa in midfield a wide forward and a No.10 neither of them lookef comfortable but ultimately it was about giving them game time to up their fitness.

I thought Welbeck Mata and Rooney worked well as a combination during the first half, but our midfield looked weak so they had little support. The lads playing wide did a job in stretching play but offered little else going forward but this could be due to Roma pressing them high up the pitch limiting their ability to get forward.

But the thing I was most pleased with was our defense, it was our defending that cost us a UCL place this season, and even with several youngster and no exeperianced leader in our defence only a wonder goal and a debatable penalty were all that could breach it. That for me bodes very well.

This formation will work and I think it is the way to go. But we need to add another defender or two and a top quality midfielder to partner Herrera.

Spot on, The Beast

Shappy - I understand this is all trial and error and there are reasons we are doing it. But based on the performance last night it was a poor display across the board. We lacked composure, pace, passing ability and tactical awareness. This should all come in time I have no doubt, but the performance was very poor taken as a game and that is what I am commenting on, not potential and reasons why, just simply what it was.

Our defence looked very dodgy throughout to me. Destro was running through at will and it was scary how static we were. The miss in the first minute would have been a goal 99% of the time, just lucky with super bouncy pitch.

Looking forward to how LVG corrects matters in the next game. Thought Mata & Herrera did very little aside from their roles in the goals, but the lack of quality out wide meant they had limited options.

Fingers crossed LVG works his magic, but it is very early days and I remain confident.

For this formation to work properly you need the correct personnel. Hummels central, Jones right & Evans/Vermaelen left would work fine. Swap Cleverley for Vidal, Welbeck for Van Persie and it will look much better. Hummels and Vidal will be difficult obviously, but they would make this formation formidable. We will need to be patient while the players adapt to this formation. I think we will start to see the best come Christmas time, but hopefully we can stay within a few points of Chelsea and City whilst we are still adapting to this formation.

Yes Syd I agree. But we also need the wing backs to adjust quickly as they hold the key. If they are not familiar with the position by the time we start we are in for a tricky period. They need to create the outlets and space for the midfield to operate, yesterday both sets didn't know what they were doing and as a result our offensive game was practically none existent and this is why our central midfielders/strikers did next to nothing for long periods.

I am sure that Rafael and Shaw will be well honed come kick off time.

27 Jul 2014 01:37:29
Long time reader, first time poster
just wondering if anyone knows a way that I can watch a replay of the united-roma game? (online, if possible)

If you torrent you can find an uploaded copy of the game @ the pirate bay

Just search in YouTube. make sure you click on filter and search videos longer than 20m.

Chris - I'd just watch the goals, everything else was shocking imo, save yourself 85 mins. We looked exactly what we are, a team trying to play a new system, trying to follow management instructions but with so many changes it is difficult for us. Plus the typical inept displays by the usual crew. Rooney had a 5 minute devastating spell for the goals though which was very encouraging.

27 Jul 2014 12:04:04
Thanks for the help guys I eventually found the full game on youtube on a channel that had last nights game and also the la galaxy game which I hadnt seen the score either

27 Jul 2014 12:10:20
The beast,

Some people probably want to judge the performance for themselves rather than just watch 5 minutes and be told by someone how badly we played to be 3-0 up at half time. I thought Roma looked a good side and we looked like we struggle in the conditions, but to suggest a 3-2 win was that poor is ridiculous.

GDS2 - It was tongue in cheek, obviously people want to see for themselves. I'm just saying aside from the goals it isn't worth going out of your way to watch, like most things people should judge for themselves.

27 Jul 2014 14:41:35
after watching last nights game I thought we played quite well, defending high up the pitch is something we didn't see much of last season and quite a few times roma had to resort to kicking the ball long (although one of them did go in lol)
I like the look of Reece James although I don't think he's ready/good enough to challenge Shaw for first choice left back but I could see him being a useful squad player a few years down the line

Oh my there's two of us

27 Jul 2014 00:25:22
Well that was a step up in terms of quality, pace and power. Things to remember, 1, these games are to build up fitness and match sharpness. 2, the conditions were hard. 3, this is a team that pushed Juventus for the title last season. And 4, it's more about learning a new system than getting results.

Roma started the game off on a flier, I think their game plan was to hit us early get a goal or two and then defend well. Considering the conditions(the heat and altitude) that was a solid plan.

But we defended well enough, and we learned from our mistakes and we grew into the game, 3-0 at half time didn't really reflect the game in an accurate light. 1 or maybe 2-0 would have been fairer based on the balance of play.

Then came the second half and a raft of subs which completely through the game of balance for 20 minutes with neither team being able to gain any cohesion of fluidity, it became scrappy and bitty. But as we took off the majority of what you could call our first choice players, Roma brought theirs on. And then a wonder goal turned the tide their way much how Rooneys wonder goal had turned it our way in the first half. With Pjanics goal Roma's confidence grew and we fell onto the back foot. Then late in the game and one of those tough calls for a Ref, yes it his his upper arm but was it intentional? Only Michael Keane knows for sure, but the man who matters thought it was and Totti stepped up and dispatched the penalty with his usual swagger leading to nervous last 6/7 minutes. Fortuantely we managed to hold out, not that the result matters but it shows that the youngsters have the right mentality to see out a tough game in a winning manner.

LvG has been using these games very much as just a fitness and training exercise, he clearly has no worries about the results and is just making sure that his players learn his methods and gain the required fitness and sharpness to compete for the Premier league. The second half team shows that imo.

Amos in goal meaning that he has fielded 4 keepers in only 180 minutes of football, the defence of M.Keane, Smalling and Blackett actually looked mostly untroubled. Dare I say Smalling looked very assured leading the younger lads. Shaw is still feeling his way into his position at a new club, we will need to remember that 18 months ago he was playing youth football for Southampton, He will take abit of time to settle in fully and continue his upward trajectory. But Young as a wing back is asking for trouble, I honestly was struggling to remember ever seeing him put in a tackle in his who time at the club, so it came as little surprise to see him fouling every time he tried.

Like wise a centre midfield of Lingard and Kagawa looks good on the ball but very weak off of it. There was a certain lack of authority in our midfield, although that was the same in the first half with Cleverley and Herrera in midfield. Nani is not a No.10 and he never will be. Will Keane looked decent upfront and should be afforded a few more minutes during the tour, but Hernandez didn't get into the game at all.

Overall it was a reasonably entertaining game which was for the most part quite open but with limited chances at each end, It was good for fitness and will help with the tactical evolution the players are currently going through.

Shappy - I really like reading your posts and your optimism. But I do disagree with your assessment on this one mate.

I thought we were at sixes and sevens both halves at the back. Smalling looked like a mistake waiting to happen, definite penalty as well, Keane's hand was out and stopped the ball, (just inexperience, but it would be given 9/10 times).

Roma should have been 2-0 up before we even had a kick. Kagawa, Lingard were anonymous second half. W. Keane had 2 good runs, but again you wouldn't have known he was on the pitch. Hernandez weren't on for long enough, but I think if he had been on for 90 mins he would have done the same because there was absolutely no quality being delivered to the strikers. Shaw looked uncomfortable, as did Valencia. Didn't see Herrera.

Bright sparks, were 5 minutes of Rooney looking class, Mata's goal. Youth getting a chance, but aside from James (who did nothing wrong, rather than much great) none of them really did much of note. Remember Roma were playing a lot of young players and new signings as well.

Tough conditions, bouncy pitch, not easy with lots of subs, new system and players not used to playing together, but a draw would have been fair and we played very little football, just a couple of nice passes for the penalty and the 2nd goal. The rest was very poor and looked like last year.

Pre-Season as you say and it's all about fitness and understanding the new system. Young, Nani, Kagawa, Cleverly were absolutely dreadful.

Hope to see more football and more attack from our wing backs moving forward which will enable the rest of the team to have outlets and maybe create something for our strikers.

You say we were at sixes and sevens but they had a couple of chances at the start of both halves while our defence was settling in but other than that they didn't have any chances of note bar one in the last few minutes when they were throwing the kitchen sink at us.

Considering its a new system with young players we defended well against one of the best Italian teams.

They only managed to score a wonder goal which you can place some blame on Amos for as he should have got back for it, but you can't blame our defence as the shot came from 60 yards out, maybe our midfield could have closed him down quicker but i've already said our midfield was the weak link yesterday. Besides how much danger do you think someone can be 60 yards out.

Their penalty was a 50/50 imo, yes it hit his arm but it was a shot travelling at speed hit from 6 foot away. It is only a penalty if he intentionally handled it. At that speed in that close proximity you can argue that it was ball to hand rather than hand to ball. But as I said the only person who knows for sure is Michael Keane. The Ref had to make a decision and it could have gone either way, it went against us but those are the breaks.

My point is that Roma with Totti and all their best players required a penalty and a wonder goal to score against us. That is an improvement on last season.

It's always going to be hard to produce a performance not only in those conditions but we fielded 21 players yesterday with new tactics and new formation, with several players out of position. How you can expect a performance in those circumstances is abit harsh mate.

Shappy I think we are talking about different things on the whole. I agree that this isn't something to judge the team on long term, but taking the game at face value 11v11 for 90mins, we were not good, (I wouldn't expect us to be). There were not many positives to be taken from the game, you can't realistically say it was an improvement on last season defensively because it was a friendly and frankly Roma looked like they could carve us open with the clipped ball over the top whenever they tried it- but they were trying new things as well.

Obviously let's wait until the first game of the season to see how these friendlies have assisted us. But aside from Rooney's 5 mins, I wasn't impressed with anything I saw and I have just read that LVG wasn't impressed either.