Manchester United Banter Archive September 27 2013

27 Sep 2013 17:41:35
There have been reports of Larnell Cole and Michael Keane going on loan to Derby, do you know if that's true Ed? {Ed002's Note - Sorry, I don't. They are kids, the Court Order says I should have no contact.}

27 Sep 2013 19:48:11
For the last cuple of days we've been talking about moyes and his tactics, team selection, style of play etc and whether he fits what we all think a MU manager should be and tbh a lot of good points were made by everyone. Another thing MU have history of is bringing young players through and this is a point which I think is equally important.
Over the years we've had quality players come through into the first team and a lot more who may not have made it with us but have still had good careers in the EPL but in over 10 years at everton apart from rooney who has moyes brought through? This isn't and anti-moyes rant but I can't think of many at all. At one point jack rodwell was the next big thing in evertons youth set up but never made the step up really and is now in citys reserves and before that bkg things were expected of james vaughan who is somewhere in the championship I think.huddersfield? Not sure.
Is this just that nobody who came through evertons youth in the past ten years was good enough or that their talent wasnt nurtured in the right way to fulfil the potential? If its the latter where does that leave zaha, janujaz, powell, lingard, the keanes and a number of other promisingyoungsters at our club?
Like I said this isn't an anti-moyes rant just wondered what peoples thoughts were and if anyone can think of a player moyes had as a youngster at everton other than rooney and perhaps rodwell who has really progressed. I know he had ross barkley but he's only stepped up this year under martinez so iv not counted him.
Thoughts anyone?

That's a good point I hadn't considered before. But thinking about it which teams have had a good youth policy over recent years?

None of the top clubs have that I can think of, all of them bring in players just before they are about to hit the big time or when they are already there. Wilshere at Arsenal, Hart at City, there must be more but I'm struggling after that. Players like Ramsey, Walcott, Bale, Oxlade Chamberlain, all brought in just before they were snapped up by another prem club (us in most cases).

Are there any clubs that do this well anymore, I suppose everyone is struggling because of the need for immediate success?

Sween,
There does seem to be an obsession with instant success and I agree its not just everton that have struggled to bring players through but they have had 2 youngsters in vaughan and rodwell who at 16 were considered future England regulars buy many experts but for some reason never fullfilled the expectations and now barkley who has been on the fringes for 12-18 months but has only stepped up since moyes left.coincidence or lack of faith in young players? I think klopp has proved at dortmund that with the right guidance and support young players can flourish at top clubs still even players deemed not good enough by other clubs such as hummels or or talented youngsters from smaller clubs suxh as gundogan

Yeah maybe he doesn't have a great record if you look at it like that, but again not many managers do.

Dortmund aren't a good comparison because they are a massive club in Germany and throughout Europe - they tap players from all over central Europe. Much more so than Everton. I actually played for the Dortmund youth team as a kid and the squad was full of Turks, Poles, Czechs and this was the early 90's. I can only imagine it has gotten more cosmopolitan since then. If Dortmund come in for you as a youngster you go without question, if Everton do then you bide your time in case somebody else better does. Plus the German league isn't as strong as most people think, you can play youngsters in games where it's pretty much a dead cert you will win, in England those types of games are now few and far between - more risk of blooding them and losing.

Those young players at Everton may seem to have been wasted under Moyes, but maybe they just weren't ready, it happens all the time - Sterling, Oxlade-Chamberlain - they all have great starts and then drift for a while as opponents know their style after a game or two and they get back to the reserves.

Sween,
I was just tryin to say that klopp has achieved success with little spend and a strong reliance on youth.
I know dortmund are a lot bigger in germany than everton are here but it can be done.
Im happy moyes has given janujaz a chance and that's a good sign and hopefully zaha can be introduced in the next few games.

Rooney, Barkley, Rodwell, Richard Dunne, Hibbert, Osman, Anichebe. Not the most impressive list but they did come through their Academy.

Good debate guys. However, moyes keeps on getting his tactics wrong and fluffing his lines badly. He played young in two of these important games while also having valencia on the other side. All the time, he knew that Liverpool and city were packing the midfield areas.
Our games against Liverpool chelsea and city have yielded ONE point.
So there is not much point in defending moyes. He has got it wrong every time.

All good mate, we agree to agree. haha.

I hope Zaha gets a decent run of it as well, he will never improve otherwise. I also hope Anderson gets a few games, he can look really dynamic some games, if he can stay fit he could be a real asset as well.

Sween,
maybe Bilbao would be a better comparison?
Similar size in their country and probably a similar pool of youngsterss available due to only signing basque. Herrera, martinez, munain, llorente, de marcos etc and that's just in the last 5yrs or so.If youngsters are given a chance they can do well. Time will tell but hopefully moyes will be aware of our tradition and try/be brave enough to give our youth a chance despite the pressure to get results

Yeah Bilbao are a perfect example.

Some managers work wonders with the restrictions they have imposed on them, obviously Basque-Bilbao.

My wife asked me in bed what was going on with the banter site, made me laugh, and when I told her about this point she said - "Villa seem to be playing a lot of youngsters don't they?", looks like the constant bombardment of games is paying off on her, because I think they are the only decent sized team pushing youth out of necessity!

Financial restrictions on Lambert means he has been relying on youth for the past season or two and as a result in a couple of years they will be a lot stronger than where they should be compared to their rivals.

Baby faced

If you are watching the spurs game, that is why I don't think it is wise for us to go out with an attacking line up against a spurs type team as I think whilst we will have our moments, they will carve us up and potentially give us a hiding as our midfield and back line will not be able to run with these guys.

So it is not a matter of being brave but wise. Does Mayweather greatest boxer of all time ever stand toe to toe with anyone because he is definitely not the biggest puncher but has kicked everyones ass, if you know what I mean.

Shahram,
Judging by the first 45mins against WBA I don't think there's any chance of us showing any attacking intent against anybody let alone the likes of spurs, arsenal etc!
We were the leagues top scorers last season and yet we haven't scored a goal from open play in the league for over 400mins! That can't be a coincidence surely? i'd be interester to know how many chances we've created in those games too because I bet its not too many.
I expected some kind of reaction today but so far iv seen nothing soI might just take them 4 away draws myself atm buddy :)

27 Sep 2013 19:08:07
Aesop

Clearly I missed something. If DM was 3rd choice, pray tell who were 1st and 2nd choices? My understanding is that SAF recommended DM

Oh Aesop and his fables

Jaxer class :)

The selection process was simple.

Name a manager who will not demand huge transfer funds, is a steady eddie and won't rock the boat because he will be glad to be here and to have such a huge opportunity.

Moyes was the only name on that list.

27 Sep 2013 18:22:56
GAGUS

if you watched Madrid play in the season they won the Spanish league they were very entertaining indeed.

I have said a few times we miss the special player the Cantona, Ronaldo, the one that makes Manchester United that special team. Moyes also needs to understand we need that sparkle of brilliance and it isn't just about percentage football, it is about winning with a certain style. Last season we won the league but didn't have that style, it was functional and in that respect SAF had lost his way. Those players are not easy to find but Moyes needs to encourage verve and find one of those players, then play with the style Kloot is talking about, in keeping with Sir Matt.

Red Man
----------------------
I understand what you mean Red Man, but if you look at the Madrid team and the players they have at their disposal, they're bound to be entertaining to watch, especially with Ronaldo and Ozil etc. Look at his time at Chelsea and Inter, where there is no demand for a certain style. It's well known that Perez and the fans demand an expansive style of play. No such demands exist here. Yes, we would like to win that way, but there is no demand from the owners, ceo etc for that style of play. It's all about winning with Mourinho, and most of the time it's at all costs.

GAGUS

Mourinho has been in several roles where there was immense pressure to deliver immediately. Ambramovitch is not patient, just look at the procession of managers, Inter was by its nature short term, a three years that was long term at Madrid. The point is that Jose has had to deliver results quickly in every role. That in itself has not led to building a team, let alone an entertaining team. SAFs teams have not entertained in recent years yet he had a situation of ultimate security in his role. Jose has gone back to Chelsea but how secure is he really, how long does he really have? What we don't know is what Jose could achieve given the security of time to build a winning team with the objective of playing expansive attacking football. What could he have achieved with a six year secure contract?
As an analogy Jose has almost acted as a management consultant or a turn around director going into under performing companies and making urgent profound tough decisions to bring instant success. It is a totally different management style. At the same time Moyes has no such pressure.

I saw someone post about Casillas and how Jose treated him, well SAF did not mess about with Beckham or Stam.

Many post about managing yet I wonder how many have managed

Red Man, not many I would guess. But that doesn't stop you and others thinking you know better than a man who's been involved in topflight football for donkeys years. I'm sure he appreciates all the nuggets of wisdom though :)

What about his time at porto? the season they won the cl I went to the away leg when they played us, we got absolutely battered and played off the pitch even though the scoreline didn't reflect there dominence

Is it a case of Mourinho having little time to get the job done? Or is it Mourinho simply getting bored every 2-3 years? Mourinho did deliver in his time at Chelsea, yet left suddenly. He won a treble at Inter and left suddenly. Madrid is hard to judge, but it appears a lot of players disliked him, particularly Ronaldo, who of course has a wonderful relationship with Sir Alex. Mourinho may be a proven winner, but I have my doubts that he would've stayed any longer than 3 years at this club.

Why has he dropped Mata? He sent Lukaku on loan again, leaving himself with 2 out of form strikers. Lost to Basel at home from a winning position. And Chelsea, who were playing a decent brand of football last year, are now struggling to score goals.

What is the point of statements such as "Many post about managing and yet I wonder how many have managed"? If that were the criteria for having an opinion on football then we may as well all pack up, go home and close the site.

TK Red

That was more aimed at those who post about how Jose handled Casillas as they use it as a stick to criticise Mourinho without necessarily understanding, in my opinion, the management issues he faced and how he dealt with it.

27 Sep 2013 16:02:47
I wanna talk about tactics for a moment, and how we should be looking at our squad and building for the future.

Now in modern football there are two ways of controlling the game, the first is to dominate possession. If you have the ball then your opponant doesn't, this gives you a large amount of control over the game.
The second way is to control the space on the pitch, by forcing your opponant to only have possession in certain areas where they can't hurt you makes there possession pointless and there attack blunt. Barca opperate the first way and Bayern the second way. Both are the bench mark you need to aspire to if you are going to use either approach.

Now which is best for us? Well imo I think we are better going down the route of possession. I know some will look at the way Bayern destroyed Barca last season and question whether that's the best move but I will explain why. First Bayern were able to destroy Barca for one simple reason, they have a lot of possession but all their attacks go through Messi. If you cut Messi out of the game then you blunt Barca's attacking threat. If Barca had several other outlets which they could play through then Bayern would have had a much tougher time of it. That is why Barca went all out for Neymar this past summer.

Well now that's explained I can go into why I think Possession is the better route for us. To play in the Bayern way you need to play with a 4231 type formation as it gives you more flexability to control the space around the pitch. Now the vital componant to that formation is the double pivot midfield. That is why Bayern went all out and paid 40m for Martinez. In Schweinstieger and Martinez they have the best double pivot system in the world, this means any other double pivot system will only be second best.

If we were to try and play that way then we need at least one absolute world class midfielder possibly two. The only way we would be able to compete with Bayern at their own game would be to get Vidal and Gundogan. That just isn't possible. There are very few players available who could come in and play with either Carrick or Fellaini and make enough of a difference to make playing Bayerns style possible.

So we need to look at playing with possession as this will be much easier to achieve with the potential players available. Playing possession is all about numbers, if you have more options to play the ball to then you are less likely to give the ball away. that's why 433 is the formation of choice for teams playing possession football as the extra man in midfield means whoever has the ball in midfield should have at least two options in midfield to pass to as well as an option in defence and an option further forward.

So if we are to play a type of 433 formation we need to look at how we should use it with the players we have.

Now the defence near enough picks itself so I won't go into that. In midfield we have Fellaini and Carrick as obvious first choices, so who do we use in the other midfield position. Now there are three options the first is Cleverley who is the best defensively so would be a good option if we were trying to see out a game, but he probably isn't best suited from the start. Anderson is the next option, if he can stay fit and rediscover his form he could be the best option, but we all know by now that that is a long shot. The final option is Kagawa, now he would be the best option going forward but he will have to massively improve his defensive game to play such a role as this can't afford to have someone slacking defensively or the whole thing will be compromised.

This does mean we will probably need at least one maybe two midfielders to come in to provided cover and competition. But playing this style means that there are much more options open for us to sign.

The real issue with this line up is the forward line, what do we do with Rooney? Rvp will obviously take the central forward position which means Rooney will need to play one of the wider roles. Can he play such a role? Well yes he played it in 2008. The other wide role could be filled by anyone of our wide players. This is the problem playing a traditional 433. But what if we changed it to suit our personel?

What if we played two strikers and played someone deeper in the hole? Kagawa would work well here with Rooney and RvP playing as the main strikers. With Rvp starting more toward the right and Rooney on the left. The could drop back into the right and left channels when we don't have the ball then move in when we win the ball back and move forward that would cause huge problems trying to mark them. How do you mark someone who moves from the wider position inwards, do you let the full back track them thus opening a huge gap out wide or do you leave it to the centre backs to pick them up once they are on the move, plus you have the player in the hole to try and pick up and the other striker. Obviously having Kagawa play that role leaves an opening in the midfield three but means Kagawa won't have to learn to play in a new way.

This system would need just one new midfielder and probably a new left back to replace the ageing Evra.

We could sign Herrera or Clasie in january and niether would be cup tied, left back is trickier as Coentrao looks like Moyes first choice but he would be cup tied. Alex Sandro would be my choice but he would also be cup tied. We could move for Alberto Moreno who wouldn't be cup tied. Ultimately it comes down to whether you feel it better signing someone for the future but who could play a full part this season or do you sign aready made replacement but they would be cup tied in europe.

This imo should be how we try and play, with a midfield three giving us a solid base to play from, it would also allow our full backs to get forward easier with less worry about being caught on the break as one of the midfield three can drop back and cover them if we are caught on the break. So with natural width coming from the full backs, Rooney and RvP playing in their best position and Kagawa playing in his then we would be very flexable and dangerous going forward and with a midfield three very solid in defence and would have the majority of possession allowing us to control all the games we play in.

We need to find a style and stick to it and bring our young players through in this style so they can just slip seemlessly into the first team.

Shappy, respect, stick your recommendations on a letter, we'll all sign it as a petition then send it in to DM and the board, seems such a waste your efforts on here alone.

Shappy

I always thought a 433 needs midfielders who have pace, do you think we can play this system with the likes of Fellaini and Carrick as the main 2?

27 Sep 2013 21:01:22
Shahram, Carrick is 32 and would only be first choice for a season or two at most, Fellaini would be the deepest and the anchor of the side thus pace isn't required as much.

I see Powell taking Carricks in a season or two, if we could bring in one of Gundogan, Koke, Hererra or Clasie to play alongside Fellanin and Carrick for a season or two until Powell could be ready to take over from Carrick.

27 Sep 2013 09:48:13
I've come to a worrying realisation, there is an old motto. "If its not broke don't fix it", how is this worrying you ask?

Well David Moyes has spent all of his career developing his style and his tactics, we saw them at Everton and we are starting to see them with us.

Now in his mind his tactics have been very successful, in fairness he all ways achieved his targets at Everton and his way of managing has lead to him landing the hot seat at Old Trafford. In his mind he has done everything the right way so why would he change his tactics now, remember if it isn't broke don't fix it.

Of course for the most of us we can see the gapping hole in this plan of action. David Moyes style may well have served him well upto now, but it has also won him nothing. And at a club like ours not only are you expected to win things your expected to do it in a certain style.

Sir Alex was so successful because he moved with the times, slightly adjusting his style to suit the modern game. He normally did this by bringing in a new and innotive no.2 to advise him and help him implement that new style.

By some strange coincidence, I wrote a post last night using the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". It took me a while to write on my mobile, and I lost it all while trying to send it , and couldn't be botherer to redo it. Bloody phone!
Anyway, my post was more along the lines of "our midfield IS broke, and we haven't fixed it". I was re-reading all the posts on the Kagawa debate, and the general consensus is that he doesn't fit into our way of playing ie 442, 4411 or whatever we play. But, leaving Kagawa out of the argument (its been discussed to death now), our style of play is not working. We might compete with the likes of Norwich and Stoke, but against the top sides we are largely ineffective going forwards.
It really is about time we as a club moved forwards. And I agree Shappy with the last sentence. A modern, tactically astute no.2 would be a great addition.

Really good post. The style David Moyes installed upon Everton was fantastic because it was to suit a team going through a period of transition (fighting relegation to fighting for top half finish). My main concern is the thought of Moyes going back to Everton to look for players, and while the likes of Baines/Barkley etc are really good, we have to maintain and build on our title win, and Fellaini does not solve that problem.
We've always had traditional values in the sense that we would develop from within and sign 2 or 3 known players every few seasons and I fear this is the point we become unstuck. To keep up with the likes of City, Chelsea, Tottenham and Arsenal now (who'd have thought) we need to take advantage of the talent in the market and try to keep up with the times as you said Shappy. Don't get me wrong Moyes has my full backing but I'm worried as well that influence from the press might dictate the thoughts of some of the plastic, fair weather fans who think we're terrible when we don't win.
However I'm quite confident we will finish in the top 4, it will be an achievement in its self for Moyes, would be nice to see us battle all the way but I really think this is a provisional season, so he can check out what's what and who is in his long term plans.

Many have been talking about our "style" under Sir Alex. Ever since 2010 we have not been "stylish" at all. It could be argued that Sir Alex's style and tactics of play cost us more than a few times in Europe and the change in tactics came a lot later than it should have.

There isn't much change in the way we are playing under Moyes and the way we played for the last 3 years. Has Moyes even managed more than 10-15 competitive games yet for United? Give the guy a break. Luckily the club understands that he needs to be given time and has given him a long term contract.

The change in the style of play will only come with change in players. Moyes can want us to play like Barcelona for all we know but if there aren't players of that kind here there is little he can do about it.

As we know Moyes does a lot of research in identifying the players he wants. He is also at a bigger club than he was last season and the demands are higher so he will have to start looking for a higher calibre of player. He also needed to know what he had to work with, in terms of ability, so he wouldn’t buy any unnecessary players or players who wouldn’t improve our squad.
He did notice we were lacking in midfield and he brought someone he was familiar with and who he knew would do a job for us. Right now he has a squad not his own and is trying to make the best of what he has. Wait until the end of January before you start doubting him. He is the manager of the club and works with these players everyday so I think he would know better. And at the end of the day he hasn’t made his mark on the squad yet.
I expect changes over the next few years provided he gets a chance to make changes. He was chosen by SAF for a reason. Be patient.

I do think this is a year where we will finish in the top 4 and see a lot of changes.

27 Sep 2013 12:12:33
I wouldn't quite agree with that Red Faith, we have a squad of players not just a team. Within that sqaud are many different players so that opens up the ability to play many different ways within it.

You see it happen every year with teams with a lesser squad than we have, they struggle under one manager so they change managers and the new manager quite often with the same players implements a different stlye. Sometimes this works and it saves the club, other times it doesn't. But the fact remains that its possible.

David Moyes has come in and it can be argued that he has chosen to play the players most similar to the ones he had at Everton and he has played the same style he did at Everton.

He has chosen to play Valencia and Young over players like Nani, Kagawa, Zaha and Januzaj. Valencia and Young offer more work rate than the others and play in a more compact way rather than an expansive way. This mirrors exactly what he did at Everton. You can say he didn't have more expansive players at Everton but he has them with us. Also he was at Everton for 11 years more than enough time to buy one or two expansive players if he wanted them.

I know its early in his reign and I still back him and want him to succeed, but the early signs are that he is going to stick to the tactics and style that has served him so well up until now.

At Manchester United you are expected to win and win in style, the Old Trafford faithful may be willing to accept winning with a poor style, but they won't accept losing with a poor style. So if Moyes is to continue down this path then he has to win things, if he doesn't then don't count on him completing his 6 year contract.

He was the second or third choice as manager, and you can see more clearly every day why this was.

He is used to doing his player shopping at Primark, and that is an indelible trait - shopping at Selfridges requires the sort of sophistication that you never learn; you either have it or you do not. He does not.

His media performances in the first couple of months have been dire, either fawning or paranoid, or even a combination. He is out of his depth and he cannot impose himself usefully on any aspect of his job.

This has been a bad appointment, meeting neither of the club's clear and articulated criteria - namely for a successful UK manager with deep European expertise. He has neither.

All of those who blabber on about giving him a chance will see that real talent does not need charitable chances. It is either there or it is not there. He has the experience but not the ability.

Or maybe it has nothing to do with style and just a plain old fact that we have a big squad of average players and a few great player. Need the players to play a certain style.

In the NFL they have a term called team speed and it is all about how fast a team is as a unit, we have no team speed as a unit.

I think you can judge the manager at the end of the season and what he does in the next summer window and that will give all of us a clear idea of where he is taking us. If it is Fellaini type purchases then I would be worried.

I'm not trying to shoot Moyes down as I think he is a very good manager, and I will back him until the day he leaves the job.

I'm trying to point out that under Moyes we may need to realise that we are going to play a certain style, and until that style has failed Moyes then he won't look to change it.

I agree that at times Moyes has looked alittle out of his depth, but i'm prepared to forgive him that for the mean time. Following Sir Alex has to be the biggest toughest job in football, whoever took that on would have had to grow into the role, and that is what Moyes will have to do.

We will be better placed to see how Moyes will be at the end of the season.
After two seasons we will have a full picture of what Moyes is like and what he is trying to do. At that point we will know whether he can manage the job or if it is just abit too much for him.

Shahram mate I could devise 5/6 different playing styles and formations with the players David Moyes has available.

It's not that hard if you want to, my feeling is the Moyes has no inclination to play any other way that what he is happy and comfortable with, that means we may become an Everton mk2.

If Moyes can bring in the players of the highest quality that he wants and that suit his style then it can be very effective.

His style is strong defense, at the end of the day if you don't conceed then you don't lose. Moyes can now buy some of the best defensive players in the world, if he can sort out the midfield to play his way then we will be the toughest team to score against in the league. In the long run if only the best teams in the league are able to score against us then there will only be a few games that we could lose in a league season(Chelsea, City, Arsenal), if we only lost to those teams in a season then we would be almost garenteed to wint the league.

All Moyes needs to learn is how to get his team to get the goals needed to win games. If he manages to keep our scoring ability while merging that with is strong defensive ability then we will be a tough opponant to knock off the top spot.

The issue is are we all going to be happy with a winning defensive style?

And he has to get the team winning as a losing defensive style will have him out of a job in the not too distant future.

I think you're spot on shappy and I made the point yesterday.
He has his style of play and type of players he favours and after over a decade in management he has kept to his idea of how he wants his teams to play and it will be difficult to change now especially with the pressure hel be under as hel want to stick to what he knows best.
He knows what's expected at united but I worry he's not adaptable tactically to keep us successful.
Fellaini was almost a certainty to sign but IMO his next 2 or 3 signing will tell us more about life under moyes than the next few performances.darren gibson to dix our midfield anyone? :)

Shappy, the winning defensive style you describe is fine if we have the players to score against teams on the counter attack.

I don't mind watching our team soak up pressure if we are good enough to potentially score every time the opposition lose the ball and are out of position.

A solid back seven is fine if the front four are quick, clinical finishers and can pick the right pass.

Shappy

I understand where you are coming from and also understand your doubts about him. I also find his selections odd but not sure how we can play our best players in a first 11 as our best don't necessary fit well together and it seems like something is always going to be a weakness.

27 Sep 2013 07:32:39
Hello Ed,

Rumours coming out the last couple days about united placing a bid for Bale this past summer (a bid greater than Madrid's). Is there any truth to this report? Thanks and great having you back on the page mate! {Ed044's Note - You need to read the posts mate.}

27 Sep 2013 07:04:26
Deep red

Sorry but you must have been watching a different games to some of us. How can you call loosing to Liverpool with an awful display, and then humiliated against City, not to forget first half display against Liverpool in the cup. We were lucky in the cup if Liverpool had taken their chances they would have beaten us.
They played 3 at the back and 5 in midfield moyes didn't change anything until second half. It could have been all over by then. He never seems to recognise that sometimes you also need plan b and c. To pick the team he has so far is shocking apart from the game against Liverpool. Apart from Giggs and smalling I was ok with lineup.giggs should only be used sparingly as an impact player. {Ed004's Note - Why Smalling he deserved to be there on merit he has played well recently and deserved a shot in centre back}

Smalling on form is our second best defender. His only issue is his passing. As a defender he is a good player. That's why Smalling and Jones would work well. Jones would bring the ball out of the defence.

I don't agree Syd, I would rather have Vidic and Evans over Smalling.

Simmo

I agree.

Evans went 18 months playing the worst football I have ever seen a defender play. He is prone to mishaps. Smalling is the better defender, but Evans is better on the ball.

'Worst football I've ever seen'.

Seriously, Syd? Not like you to succumb to hyperbole and over-exaggeration.

Come on StevieK, I know he's a fave of yours, but he had a dreadful 18 months not too long ago and he is often prone to a hiccup or two a game. I like Evans, but I think Smalling is a better defender. I still have nightmares about the West Ham United 4.0 defeat.

Sydney

Smalling can also have mares and positionally gets caught out. It might as you say a lack of playing time and injuries but then again Evans has also had quite a few injuries. To be honest there is not much between the 2 and maybe neither is seen as a longterm starter if you believe the Garay rumuors.

I would imagine Jones will be a guaranteed starter in a couple of years and one other.

Syd, he had a bad spell, but worst you've ever seen? And how many defenders with his relatively limited experience, could hold together a ridiculously young defence, in his first game of the season, and help ensure a clean sheet against one of the most dangerous front lines in the league?

StevieK, who says Evans held the defence together? I would say Smalling did the most by far. Evans in fact made two errors that could have cost us goals. Smalling made one poor pass and everyone has forgotten the good he done.

27 Sep 2013 00:16:31
Matt Busby taught us to play football a certain way The Doc recognised that and carried it on Sir Alex soon learnt that United have a special way. What Moyes needs to learn and he needs to learn it very quickly is that just winning is not enough we have to do it by playing attractive attacking football. We are Manchester United and that's the way it is

And yet, you wanted Mourinho as manager.

Stop it GAGUS. You're making KLOOT look inconsistent in his views.

Im afrais Jose wasnt the answer but I don't think Moyes is either. Personally would of like Klopp and him to bring a couple of players with him from Dortmund

Not being funny KLOOT but you will be telling us we played attractive attacking football last season!
I don't think so but won the league easily.
Cut Moyes a bit of slack for God's sake we have no devine right to win everything and in every season but he needs better support from above
ARB

GAGUS

if you watched Madrid play in the season they won the Spanish league they were very entertaining indeed.

I have said a few times we miss the special player the Cantona, Ronaldo, the one that makes Manchester United that special team. Moyes also needs to understand we need that sparkle of brilliance and it isn't just about percentage football, it is about winning with a certain style. Last season we won the league but didn't have that style, it was functional and in that respect SAF had lost his way. Those players are not easy to find but Moyes needs to encourage verve and find one of those players, then play with the style Kloot is talking about, in keeping with Sir Matt.

Lol gagus! BOOOOOMMMM

Red Man, that is purely down to the players Jose inherited at RM. They were already an entertaining team to watch. Jose has ruined Chelsea til now, they are so dull to watch it's frightening.

Sydney

Jose is changing the playing style at Chelsea, judge the finished product. What SAF served up for the last two seasons was poor standard so we are hardly ones to talk

Red Man, you mean SAF and Rene Meulensteen who you think was a mistake to let go?

You are correct. Jose is changing the Chelsea style, he is going from exciting, interchanging, fluid football, to defensive, tight and boring football. The same style that he played at Chelsea previously that was also boring to watch.

Red Man, with the players RM have, even Mourinho couldn't stop them from playing entertaining football.

Syd this is the same Jose that needs loads of money to spend to get his team to his standard?

So which is it? Did he inherit the attacking play or did he spend loads of money and get them playing like that? Not just KLOOT that's inconsistant!

Jose has not ruined Chelsea! Did they not win the CL playing the worst possible football? We all agreed on that did we not? Plus we also have seen like Red man said shocking sub standard Utd performances over 2-3 years and accepted that because we wererelativly successful plus Rene was always talked about as a great coach mate we know SAF only turned to yes man during match days to change things that's why we never did change anything when it was blatantly obvious.

Red Man is far too much up Jose's backside I see. The "style" he imposed at Madrid was hardly any rocket science. When you have Ronaldo, Ozil, Di Maria, Benzema, Higuain, Xabi Alonso, Khedira at your disposal there is no other way you can play but attack. Ronaldo and co simply won't put up with his defensive style and with football directors etc at Madrid it was hardly Jose's way that they played or bought players. In the end he was an abject failure at Madrid imo and has left them with lots of issues to deal with which they never should have had to. Its funny how Red Man ignores the constant negative and shameful bullying tactics his team adopted against a much superior Barcelona team.

Every man and his dog can see what Jose is trying to do at Chelsea and it is nowhere near stylish. He is trying to cut off their fluid interchanging football and mould them into a defensive, counter attacking outfit and benching perhaps the best player in the EPL of last season in the process.

Judge the finished product? Why don't I see the same attitude towards Moyes then? Double standards me thinks.

Want to see some managers with an actually exciting style of football? Look no further than Klopp. Jose and changing his ways? You must be having a laugh. He is a successful coach, but I find it funny that anyone can talk about his teams' exciting "style".

"Syd this is the same Jose that needs loads of money to spend to get his team to his standard?

So which is it? Did he inherit the attacking play or did he spend loads of money and get them playing like that? Not just KLOOT that's inconsistant!"

Jono, who are you referring to? Chelsea? RM?

Redfaith

Bayern, Juve and Dortmund have played well in recent years with a solid counter attacking style and all have seen success so when Jose tries to impliment this its a bad thing? What did we do last year? Parked on the edge of the box then . countered but with little fluidity and luckily had RVP to score the important goals to get wins out of draws or losses.

Do you remember his Inter team? Solid in defense and CM but free flowing up top with a lethal striker. Sound like a similar tactic to what he is trying to impliment now? Also we are doing very similar with CM core of Carrick and Fellaini if we only had a LB that was solid. We don't break aswell as Chelsea but what we do better is have a CF that holds it up and brings the attacks together. Chelsea are that player (Lukaku IMO) away from getting it right. They are then a CB and a Lamps replacement away from being great in a year or so with depth in all areas, we need a fair bit of work to replace guys of age and lesser quality than we should have.

Remember Jose and Pelligrini inherited squads that had allot of trouble last year and have both consolidated them and pushed them on. The Mata sittuation is weird and I have no idea what the end game is there but its clear what Jose wanted was a proper CF. So will the tactics work without one? Who knows but I will guarantee they will be better than last year. Will we?

I find it funny that in Madrid Lopez still has the No1 jersey. Maybe instead of slating Jose for taking a stand against the player power we should be seeing it in a light of he stood up for what he believed in and rightfully pushed a negative influence out of the team. Would SAF have done the same? I bet he would have.

Mourinho would have brought the x factor, but my choice has always been Klopp.
Dortmund play attractive and effective football. He also has an eye for players, buying them cheap and turning them into stars. This will fit perfectly with the Glazers model, as they don't want to spend too much of their hard earned cash on the team.

Interesting lots of talk of double standards on Mourinho mainly from the same people who have referred to SAFs recent years offerings as "winning football"
SAF did the same as Mourinho and won as he could, those who are criticising Mourinho are the same ones who jumped around celebrating the last league title despite the lack of style. Basically if SAF won without style it was ok but Mourinho gets criticism. The mans record is at the top level of world football and I will be interested to see both the trophies and the level of product at Chelsea. SAF had time for him for a reason.

Spurs will beat the great Mourinho this weekend so everyone get over this guy.

His tenure at Real by all accounts was a failure. If we had the players real has, would you guys be happy with one pl championship in 3 seasons, no european success and the circus that went on at the club.

He might be a good manager but has many character issues. Give Wenger those same players he has had and I would put on Wenger getting better results.

Jono, Jose is a good manager, but the man is a clown. He has had a very easy ride in management so far inheriting great squads and/or having mega bucks to spend. He is a good manager, but you and Red Man think the sun shines out of his ass. The man is a plank.

Red Man, I didn't want Jose due to him being a complete and utter plonker. The fact that he would have stuck around for two years, buggered off and would have left the new manager with a mess. The problems he would have caused around the squad with his egotistical ways. It would have been the wrong appointment. SAF made the correct decision by keeping him away from our club. Clowns belong in circuses.

I have clearly stated that Sir Alex's last few years after 2010 was hardly stylish or "Manchester United" football.

@Jono

Dortmund do not play "counter attacking" football every single week. They do it against specific sides but against most opposition they take the initiative and attack. They remind me of the old United sides. They are hardly Mourinho'esque in their style of play and ripped Jose's tactics to shreds with bold attacking football.

I have clearly stated that in the last few years we were not good enough in terms of style of play. We should be looking at the way Dortmund and Bayern attack and not the way Jose's teams play.

Jose's Inter team were not fluid in attack but a solid defensive team with a couple of good attacking players and played purely on the counter attack.

As for Chelsea, just leave Jose alone and as Red Man says, look at the end product, which will be him self imploding, creating problems and divisions within the squad and eventually run away when the going gets tough. He will be successful in the short term, I have no doubt of that, but in the long run he is a disaster, and Manchester United have known that for quite some time.

The Casillas problem was created by Jose and Madrid are having to deal with it now since it has gone out of hand. Towards the end of his tenure a lot of other players, not just Casillas were unhappy with the way he handled things. I think Sydney! framed it perfectly few months ago. Madrid is a circus, but Jose was the clown.

All that said I have always maintained that Jose's record is unquestionable, but his methods certainly are, especially for big clubs with a huge reputation and history like United. The way Madrid's name was being dragged through the mud every week due to his antics there should not go unnoticed.

Praise Jose for the results he gets, no doubt, but good football? He is hardly the benchmark for that and I would name at least 5 managers who play in a much better way and come with half the baggage.

Shahram, I sure do hope Spurs win tomorrow. I am out with a huge Chelsea fan tomorrow and he proper sulks when they lose. it will make my night. Well that and the 20 odd JD and cokes.

Sydney

I have a chunky bet on it :). I hope I am correct because this spurs team is nowhere near where they can be and if they beat chelsea now, they will only get better.

Arsenal might also drop points tomm, so the league table might see Spurs leading, City in second with arsenal and with us level on pints with Chelsea.