Manchester United Banter Archive November 28 2012

28 Nov 2012 23:48:16
Well that was an interesting game. I think it gave glimpses of the future yet still showed we have a way to go.

Lets look at the positives.

Evans has really shown his class over the last few games, he really is stepping upto the plate and is showing some leadership qualities.

Rafael has to be one of the top RB's in the world on this form atm. I can't think of anyone i would swap him for.

Smalling is showing promise and looks to be getting back upto speed after his injury lay off.

These three look like they will be main stays in our defence for years to come.

Cleverley looked bright in patches but needs more games.

Anderson showed what we are missing in midfield, that cut and thrust. That drive. Hopefully he can stay fit and kick on from here.

Jones looks like he's beefed up abit, and maybe with rumours of us being interested in a CB maybe Sir Alex sees him as a midfielder. That might also explain the lack of a midfield signing in the summer. Personally i don't think he has the technical ability to play in midfield but there is no denying he would add a different element to our midfield.

RVP just looks soo class everytime i see him. He is turning into such an inspired signing.

The negitives for me is the fact Evra keeps getting too many games and his continued prescence is holding Buttner back.

I'm not sure Carrick is the ideal candidate for the type of holding midfielder this new system needs. He hasn't got the pace needed to cover the full backs who have to get forward to provide width. He also isn't dynamic enough to hold the fort in the centre as the out and out DM.

Rooney has been very poor over the last few weeks, normally this only happens if he is injured or if he is having personal problems off the pitch. With no sign of injury i await the morning papers with dread every day until his form picks up.

And finally Hernandez is one of my favourite players, but he isn't really suited to start games but works better off the bench. Personally i'd start Kagawa in Rooney's position with Rooney upfront with RVP then look to bring Hernandez on if we need a goal, either for Kagawa with Rooney dropping deeper or for Rooney himself. Or we could rest RVP which would be a good idea, if he was injuried we'd be in trouble.

The other issue i think we had tonight is we seemed to lack penetration without wingers. This should improve once the players get more used to this set up, plus once Kagawa returns he is taylor made for this kind of set up.

So an interesting night and another well earned three points. As they say it takes all kinds of wins to win a title.

Shappy

I'm happy to see Evans getting the recognition he deserves. And Rafael, hell! What a player.

Percy

Every time we play the" new formation" we look wide open it leaves far to much space.
a top team will murder us with that formation
jred

Jred,

That is because we do not play it correctly. The width must come from the full backs and the DM has to sit in. I have explained this further up as well. The diamond can work with the players we have on form at the moment and the team I posted that I would play has an average age of 24 and that was with only the signing of Baines.

GDS

Gds
i dont think its a case of not playing it correctly I it is flawed.
it offers to much space to the other teams

a good tactical team would have a field day.
if you push the fullbacks on enough to make it work it leaves you wide open behind them for the counter attack.
and there's many more problems it leaves space all other the park .
at the end of the day it is a midfield 4 that against any good team will come up against a midfield 5.
most teams will play with a midfield 5 pushing there 2 wide players on forcing our fb back.
and there are plenty more examples of how to exploit it.

it might sound good on paper but most formations do but ask yourself this

a.how open do we look and how much space do we give the other team when we have played this formation (and thats been against lesser teams)
b. how many times have you seen this formation work against a top team.
c. how many other good teamS play this formation.

as you can tell im not a fan of the formation , i dont think its anything more than a stop gap until we get our wingers back in form.
jred

28 Nov 2012 23:31:16
Non united but I think this needs to be shared.
Brendan Rodgers said possession was more important than goals tonight! Small club mentality, at times we played west ham of the pitch and fergie probably isn't happy. This is why we are a big club and Liverpool aren't.

Dave.

5 european cups makes us a big club sunshine

WERE a big club

Brendan

28 Nov 2012 22:35:21
What about a midfield 3 like this:

_____Jones
Anderson_Cleverley

Jones looked like a breeze block when he came on. He looks like he could break Richie McCaw. If his passing gets better he could be a good solution for the DM spot whilst letting Anderson and Cleverley run riot.

Percy

Percy I agree with you Anderson looked great - BUT no one can break Ritchie McCaw.

Mike

Percy, no matter how bulked up jones is, he could never break Richie McCaw.

Caolán.

The future maybe but carrick is the best we have there at the present
CardiffRED

28 Nov 2012 22:17:42
Now maybe some of you will start to agree with me that Rooney gives the ball far too often to be a midfielder. He has also lost a lot of his pace. Even Sir Alex got fed up of him tonight. Even the biggest Rooney supporters must agree that he gives the ball away too much. Watch and count on Saturday. I AM KLOOT

What annoys me more than the giving away of possession, is his insistence on curling shots. Just stop thinking about so much and hit one! Grrrrr.

I am a rooney supporter , but kloot you need to remember rooney is not a midfielder , he is a striker being asked to play midfield .
if we had a stronger midfield I dont think he would be asked to play there
jred

He gives it away yes and that is because he isn't a midfielder!

Caolán.

Rooney is far better up top and needs to stay up top. Fergie needs to stop playing players out of position as it ruins them and as a team we become less effective. Rooney is certainly wasted in midfield. For me when Rooney first joined he looked so lethal no he just looks good when in front of goal.

Mad Hatter

28 Nov 2012 21:59:51
Inspired team selection
Lacklustre performance, partially fuelled by a very early goal
We weren't incisive enough
Important 3 points with City winning and Chelsea drawing
Clean sheet was a nice bonus
Good to see Jones again but his technique is not good enough for midfield, he'll be a top CB imo

Not many other notable points, boring game

I've got a sneaky feeling we'll be more at the races at the weekend, I hope I'm right

Gav

28 Nov 2012 21:56:38
We won, but looked really poor.

Rooney was dreadful and when he starts poorly he just continues to get worse, for a world class player he gives the ball away far to often.

We don't look right without wingers and we need to break the bank to find a world class left winger who will make a difference.

Still won and move on.

A

We were not so good in the 2nd half, but if we scored just one more from our chances it would have been a very good night. It was a good performance and to be fair WHU didn't get a lot to work with. We may have looked to open, but that is what we have been wanting from our midfield for weeks, when we finally get some movement people moan we are too open.

Sydney!

28 Nov 2012 22:17:10
i think we need two wingers and a dm

strootman zaha and tello for 35m

nani young macheda to recoup funds

28 Nov 2012 21:53:18
Guys, if that goal had went in when Evra gave it away.. I'd have personally made sure he won't be 'fit' enough to play anymore games this season!

Also, I think Rooney is getting a bit frustrated now.. lack of goals perhaps? He's trying to score from ridiculous positions.

28 Nov 2012 21:44:56
anderson bin best midfeilder for me again!

some good passing and runs,

big V

28 Nov 2012 21:38:48
What has happened to our crossing it is shocking.... We were immense at crossing lasts season and now we have RVP up top we can not give him the service.

28 Nov 2012 21:33:27
Wayne Rooney has got to buy some new boots.... He is over hitting every shot and under hitting every pass.

28 Nov 2012 21:24:59
Thank god Cleverly is off for Young he has stunk the place out tonight I'll give him the benefit of being on the right

Pardoe

I agree, then we bring on the superb Young (ffs)

A

Lol positional dyslexia left not right for Clevs then Young played exactly the same I.e. crap when we needed width

Pardoe

28 Nov 2012 21:03:16
We're playing really attractive football, Rooney is the only player disappointing so far, Anderson, Cleverley and Carrick bossing the midfield, Van persie quality on legs, Hernandez positive but a bit inconsistent, Rafael immense, Smalling, Evans and Evra doing a good job.

City are beeing played off the park by Wigan. I repeat, Wigan.

Liverpool are guetting torn apart by Gareth Bale.

And a berbatov inspired Fullham are giving Chelsea a footballing lesson. Great day.

Mick

Amazing how ur studying 4 games at the same time?

DodgyBanter

28 Nov 2012 20:58:41
When is Kagawa coming back?

28 Nov 2012 20:49:52
Team looking really positive, this team should be given a run together imo.

Anderson looking really sharp now, his vision is amazing. Cleverley is showing more intent to head forward too, Carrick isn't doing anything amazing or different to usual, but nobody can say he doesn't do what he's put out there for.

28 Nov 2012 19:55:43
yes yes yes
now that looks a more positive team
now lets turn them over
will red

We don't look right and seem far to open

A

It's a good young side that if could get a consistent run will gel nicely. I think we will add more width in the 2nd half, would imagine Young will come on for Hernandez and RvP will move to lone striker. We haven't got many goals to show for it yet, but the passing has been very good and the movement in midfield is a breath of fresh air.

Sydney!

Agreed syd its nice to see
we have no wingers on form at the moment so i like this formation for a change and we doing ok, will get better

will red

28 Nov 2012 19:46:38
Why is DDG not starting? 3 games in a row he is not starting. What's up?

Agreed but the rest of the team is looking a lot more positive
will red

He has had his wisdoms taken out, so I'm sure he is still healing and they just don't want him to take a bad challenge or somthing.
CDS

28 Nov 2012 19:41:23
Lindegaard playing tonight! Why?

Caolán. {Ed004's Note - I would guess to deal with Carroll and the threat West Ham have with set pieces?}

28 Nov 2012 19:39:49
Confirmed Line-Up..... Glad to see Anderson and Clevs.

Lindegaard, Da Silva, Smalling, Evans, Evra, Carrick, Anderson, Cleverley, Rooney, van Persie, Hernandez. Subs: De Gea, Jones, Ferdinand, Young, Welbeck, Fletcher, Buttner.

George

28 Nov 2012 19:34:30
Manchester United make five changes to the side that started against QPR on Saturday as Rio Ferdinand, Darren Fletcher, the suspended Paul Scholes, Ashley Young and Danny Welbeck are replaced by Chris Smalling, Michael Carrick, Anderson, Tom Cleverley and Javier Hernandez.

What can I say I was expecting Giggs and Carrick in the middle.... I am liking the look of the midfield. Will it be a diamond with Carrick at the bottom or a flat 3 with 3 cm's and Rooney ahead of them then Hernandez and RVP up top. Honestly I am surprised to see no wingers due to West Ham's wing play and threat from Carroll.

28 Nov 2012 19:31:43
Starting line up against West Ham;
United: Lindegaard, Rafael, Evans, Smalling, Evra, Anderson, Carrick, Cleverley, Hernandez, Rooney, Van Persie {Ed004's Note - Brilliant. The team I wanted haha.}

28 Nov 2012 18:06:00
Could be similar to the way the smalling deal was done. PLayer had agreed contract behind closed doors and then watched a match. XxXo

With the possible transfer of Zouma.

28 Nov 2012 17:38:13
Anyone got any real quality links for the game tonight?

Caolán.

I usually watch firstrow.eu but someone did post ronaldo7.net I'll try that tonight

Pardoe

You can go on wizi wig, or ronaldo 7 and search the sites, they post good links.

Mick

Vip box

28 Nov 2012 16:48:51
Here's a quick question for everyone - who would you rather succeed SAF, Mourinho or Guardiaola?

Personally I'd rather have Mourinho as I believe he has that little bit more passion that is needed in a manager and he has already won titles with Chelsea before so can 'hack' the premier league.

AvidDevil

I would love to say guardialo but i just keep thinkin that any manager could manage the team he inherited from rikjard (spelling) where as mourinho has proved it every where he has been so he would be my choice

quie1989

That would be the wrong choice - mourinho
always wants big money signings.
Academic really - Mourinho will go to Germany and Guardiola will go to City

Puzzled

My ideal scenario : Guardiola or Mourinho take over from Ferguson. After 6-7 years of success, Guardiola chooses to come back to Barcelona or Mourinho moves back to intermilan/ Portugal national team.

During that time, Ole Gunnar solskjaer would have succeeded Roberto Martinez as Wigan coach, gave them a couple of comfortable seasons away from the relegation zone, making them a midtable premier league side. He then moves to one of Valencia, AC Milan, Tottenham, Arsenal ( unikely ) and prove his worth in the champions league. A couple of years later we would have our own legend OGS as manager.

Better love story than Twilight

Mick

Mick if that happened I would pay your mortgage and do your job for you.

-JakeW

Mick
You forgot to mention that Mucky Lad wins the 15:15 at Doncaster on December the 15th 2015. (By a nose)

DodgyBanter

28 Nov 2012 16:09:53
just a thought, with all this cr7 back to OT (or to a another epl side), do you think he will score as freely as he does now? same question with messi.

rddu

28 Nov 2012 12:43:46
Would be great if UEFA push ahead with plans to axe the Europa League. It's an utter joke of a competition. An expanded Champions League would be brilliant, I'd prefer them to get rid of the group stage all together, but that won't happen. I just hope that, if this happens, they don't add a second group stage, though they probably will.

Sounds like an awful idea. Should go back to the Uefa Cup and not mess around with the CL.

Fresh!

That means Liverpool would be probable of a champions league spot. No thanks.

Ste-Utd

They could increase the no. of group from 8 to 16, with each group have 3 teams & the top team qualifies , would also help reducing the no. of games in a calender year to 2.

No thank you, I want to keep seeing Liverpool fans and their owners sweating over finishing 4th and keep failing. It keeps me going. I also cannot wait to see Arsenal drop out of there to see what effect that will have on their already angry supporter groups. I would even prefer to see only three English teams qualifying each year. That will make the EPL more competitive.

Sydney!

But Sydney! - much more fun watching them sweat over the relegation battle.

Mike

28 Nov 2012 12:12:28
EDs sorry if you have already asked this is there any transfer you might have heard of that have not been said on here
thanks in advance

quie1989 {Ed002's Note - I really don't know - I don't read many of the posts.}

28 Nov 2012 11:47:19
Totally agree with you Johndenton. Really pleased for him for getting a goal but in every game I have seen him so far he has been off the pace and his passing has been dreadful. I AM KLOOT

KLOOT Did you now Darren Fletcher completed the most passes at the weekend, even though it was against QPR but it is still a premiership game.

No Name - I think Kloot maybe talking about Fletch's ability to pass the ball forward and more than 10 yards, yeah I am sure he did complete the most passes but how many of them were in the last third of the pitch or even in the opposition half and how many of them were forward, not sideways to Scholsey or backwards to Rio or Evans.

Yougottalaugh

That is the whole point.. Fletcher is not there to be creative he is the player to keep the defence covered and let Anderson go forward... nothing more than keep possession and play neat and tidy is Fletcher's game leave the attacking to the attackers.

If we are to continue playing with 3 strikers then we need someone to do the job better than Fletcher does, someone who can also pass the ball AND dominate a midfield.

TK-Red

I agree TK... Lars Bender should be signed in January and then Wanyama in the summer. {Ed004's Note - I am not sure a midfield of Wanyama and Bender would work. I think you need a better midfield. However it would be a very solid midfield. It would make us very hard to score against if we signed a left back and Vidic returns the way he used to be}

For me Fletcher has generlly played OK since being back, not great but not terrible. One thing that is plain to see for me is his legs 'have gone' unfortunately. I've noticed many times him chasing attackers back towards our box and being out on his legs, as though he was slowly floating above the ground. I really hope this is temporary following his illness but I'm very worried that he'll never get back to the same level of athletisism he used to have. I think the manager is using this season to assess whether or not Fletcher is likely to future for us in the future. Not looking great so far....

Gav

28 Nov 2012 11:00:41
Looks like we are stepping up interest in , inviting him over to watch a game is quite a big signal of intent I think. I imagine that his agent will be there and there will be some talk over his future. What impact would this have on our squad? In my opinion, it means that SAF will keep Ferdinand and slowly blood in Zouma, then let Ferdinand leave the year after. It also probably will end rumours of a move for Hummels as we will simply have too many centre backs (unless he replaces Vidic which I don't see happening).

Fresh!

28 Nov 2012 09:50:13
Guys if Utd had anything like a real Utd midfield you wouldn't be having these ridiculous arguments as to whether Anderson or Cleverley should be in the team, it's painfully obvious that they wouldn't be near the place if there was a proper Utd midfield.
Flashes of brilliance from KFC and a once youngster with a now lost potential don't add up.
If you purchased just 3 of the many names you've decided Utd needed, neither of those two would last long in the memory or get in the team!

Jenny Taylor

Anderson was crucial in us winning the CL, he can't be that bad. And Cleverly is a similar talent to Wilshire. Its the others that are the problem with the exception of Powell who will be a world beater and perhaps Fletcher whose a good squad player. If we could replace Scholes, Carrick and Giggs with something like Strootman & Bender then we would not be complaining.

Fresh!

Fresh

I would say our most influential midfielder in the CL winning season was Hargo by a country mile. Ando played his part but his best performances were in the league most notably v Fabregas and Gerrard bit since then he has pushed his way to third out IMO behind scholes and giggs. I would only keep clevs and Fletch of the first teamers. Guys like petrucci and Powell obviously deserve the chance to share the games that scholes and giggs would normally take up IMO.

Jono

Jenny, Cleverley will spend the next 5-10 years at the club and as an England international. He isn't the answer to our midfield issues, but he is art of that issue and when he has a decent players beside him we will see the best of him. I cannot wait to see some of the people on here eat humble pie in a couple of year's time. Over the next year you will start seeing a less careful Cleverley and one that will burst forward like he did as a youngster. It's all about the confidence, game time equals confidence.

Sydney!

Fresh - So scoring a penalty in the CL Final makes Ando a good player, so presumably the same applies to both Nani and Giggs, just remind me how many of the 120 minutes did Ando actually play.
The only similarity I can see between Wilshire and Clevs is that they are both young. Wilshire is strong in the tackle, is attack minded, goes past people and is a good passer of the ball, whereas Clevs rarely tackles anyone, gets forward or goes past anyone, he mostly looks to play the ball sideways over 10 yards. Perhaps you can remember Wilshire against Barca away a couple of seasons ago, he was outstanding and could quite easily have played in the Barca team that night, then remind me of when Clevs has had that impact in any game, let alone against the best team in the world at the time.
Jenny maybe a bit harsh in her description of Ando and Clevs, but she makes a valid point, it is only because we have such a mediocre midfield that people are looking to them to improve things. Don't forget that due to his lack of fitness Ando rarely completes 90mins, would we have accepted that from a Utd player 5 or 10 years ago, of course not, that shows how desperate people are over our midfield that they are happy to accept it now.

Keanooh

Fresh, to say that Cleverley is a similar talent to wilshere is not logical. Even after 14 months out, Wilshere is still the best young central midfielder in the world, with only Veratti for competition. He has more talent in a fingernail than Cleverley ever will. Dont get me wrong, its possible that Cleverley will go on to become a better player, but in terms of sheer talent, there's no comparison.

Mick

Never said he won us the final, but he played a lot of games that season and we won the CL and the EPL.

Fresh!

"So scoring a penalty in the CL Final makes Ando a good player, so presumably the same applies to both Nani and Giggs".

Are you saying Giggs hasn't been a good player, Keanooh?

You're argument seems to be along the lines of - it doesn't make you a good player just because you score a penalty, and then use Giggs as an illustration. Am I picking this up wrong, because if I'm not, then that's just an absurd thing to say.

StevieK

Mick, Wilshere is at this moment in time a better player than Cleverley, but I think you are vastly overrating Wilshere here. If he was Spanish he would still be in their u21's squad. I also believe Cleverley would be a much better player in the Arsenal team. He suits their style down to the ground.

Sydney!

Well syd when you see an 18 year old dominating the likes of Xavi and Iniesta, and playing week in week out in a team like arsenal, and becoming one of their best players, in his debut season, you know you're witnessing something special. The least player who was able to dominate games at that age is Fabregas.

When he comes back after a 2 year long injury, and plays the way he is atm, you can only wish he was in our team.

Now i think it's quite obvious Cleverley is one of your favourite players, just like Valencia is mine and RVP is Kloot's and Nani is Percy's. So i think you re a bit biased towards him. But Cleverley does have a lot of experience ( Leicester, Watford, Wigan and us ) and, Watford aside, he has done nothing of note.

His flaws are there for all to see : lack of passing range, lack of vision, lack of forward thinking, lack of interceptions and lack of dribbling. His energy is great, his defensive contribution is impressive and when he plays we look like a better team as his one touch passing is an upgrade on Scholes and carrick who slow down our play.

Whilshere on the other hand is a much more rounded footballer ( better tackler, better passer, better dribbler and more physical ) and even after all this time on the sidelines, he is still young, talented and a future england great who might even reach Scholes and Gerrard's levels.

Cleverley on the other hand, i cant see him as more than a premier league dependable player like Nicky Butt, Phil Neville, gareth Barry and Michael Carrick.

Would love it if he can prove me wrong though.

Mick

28 Nov 2012 08:35:24
So saf has been winding Carroll that he's not worth the £35m Liverpool paid for him. He's right, but is it worth winding a striker like this when he's playing against us tonight? Especially with the defensive record we've got at the moment?
Also I think saf has made plenty of gaffs in the transfer market. So better to keep quiet and concentrate on playing a proper midfield with proper tactics tonight.
Come on Reds.
NoMidfield

So he isnt meant to say anything , nobody even those without brains wouldnt sign carrol for 35. what he said is completely true.

nikz

He said he couldn't remember who pilkington was when he played for us... look how that turned out.. goes and gets the winner.

You think he scored that header because fergie said that about him? We let pilkington go at 13 years old, fergie just said he didn't really remember him, why would he?

Fergie was asked about Carroll and told the truth, shouldn't really matter how wound up Carroll is should it, he is still rubbish.

GDS

Carroll will cause us havoc tonight if he gets the service from out wide... unfortunately I can see an upset due to the fact we seem to be struggling aerially this season at the back apart from when Smalling plays... So hopefully Smalling and Evans at the back and Fletcher and Anderson in midfield as Fletch will be the anchor to let Anderson burst forward plus he is great in the air in both boxes.

Carroll knows he isn't worth half that £35m.

Sydney!

Personally i think it was a low blow, really tastless and disrespectful by Ferguson. I respect him as a manager since he has done a lot for our club and english football, but sometimes i cant help but think that he's better off keeping his mouth shut.

Im quite sure Carrol knows he's not worth 35 mils, but saying that in front of the media is such a low thing to do.

Mick

We all know that Caroll isnt worth half the money liverpool paid, but my point was that there is no need to wind him up on the eve of the game against our shaky defence.
Only time will tell. Lets hope he doesnt do us tonight.
NoMidfield

Wasn't SAF asked the question? If so then how is it his fault?

Sydney!