Manchester United Banter Archive February 02 2014

02 Feb 2014 22:45:55
For everyone laughing at Manchester United, allow me to tell you a story. Railway workmen came together to play football once and dared to dream. A dream to make something more of their lives. That is Manchester.

The team lost its first ever competitive game 6-0 to Bolton Reserves. It got relegated in its second season of competitive football. In January 1902, it was asked to shut down because of debts. It didn't.

Instead it came back up and won the league, a FA Cup and a charity shield 2 years later. That is Manchester.

From 1922 to 1940, United were relegated again and again and again. Faced with bankruptcy in 1931, United were on the verge of disaster again. Instead, the team held on and fought on. Finishing 2nd in 1947, 1948 and 1949; 1st in '52, 55 and 56.

It won the FA Cup in 1948 and became the first English team to play in Europe. It had to wait 41 years for glory. That is Manchester. A plane took off on February 6, 1958. To greatness it seemed. And came crashing down. 8 players died.

Facing despair and doom, the club fought on. It reached the final of the FA Cup that year. Without a first team, it plodded on and rebuilt. 7 years later, as the fallen 8 smiled from above, the team won the title in 1965 and 1967. And the European Cup in
'68. That is Manchester.

For 25 years it waited to win again, getting relegated, losing Managers and players as rivals laughed. It didn't fall then either. A league title in 1992, a double in '93 and a treble in '99. That is Manchester.

Blood, toil, sweat and tears. That is Manchester.

Our squad needs a reshuffle you say. Our tactics are outdated you say. You laugh because you think we are down. You laugh because you think we are lost.

We smile because we have seen(heard) it all. We smile because we know we will ALWAYS be back. Wins from incredible positions. Glory from the darkest despair. That is Manchester United.

Forever a Red Devil. Forever Manchester United.

Amen.
Brought tears to my eyes.
There is Only One United.

Very good, mate. Don't think I'll be able to remember it all when I'm arguing with my Liverpool mates, though.

Excellent mate, and very inspiring. Perhaps you could email it to the manager, he seems to be somewhat lacking when it comes to inspirational speeches.

That's all well and good but you forgot to say how some of the players after the disaster and could not play again were kicked out of there houses and that is the dark side of united and as mutch as ferguson was a great manager do you honestly think he gives a sh t about what us hard working and plus spending hard earned cash are thinking what I am trying to say is we all have faults but why should the fans be criticized if they give moyes stick if we do not like what we are seeing now

Just want to point we waited 26 years . We should have won it in 92 but it was 93. We did the double in 94. Otherwise whatever happens with moyes etc we will be back.

A red fan,

I'm beginning to think you are a Liverpool fan, some of your posts are getting a little 'troll' like. The OP is brillliant, it is saying that we have come back from a lot worse than 1 transitional season in our history and that fans should not be panicking. Then you respond by slagging the club off and negativity. Not the post to do it on.

Very touching. That is sarcasm.

Redundant rhetoric aside, what's your point? Next time you have one too many shandy's on a Sunday afternoon, I suggest you sleep it off on the sofa. That is good advice.

GDS2, we get it, you are willing to accept a season or two of mediocrity, give it a rest. If you can't see why fans are unsatisfied at the moment you are as blind as your faith in Moyes.

02 Feb 2014 22:18:59
We haven't discussed the Nani situation recently however I think this may also have had an impact on team morale. When Moyes arrived most felt Nani needed to be sold, he was frustrating with his inconsistency. He was entering the last year of his contract and we could have let him go or just let him run down his contract. The other players have been seen to be as frustrated as we were with Nani. Big new contracts are hard to come by, ask Rio and Vidic what they had to do. Imagine how the players who have worked hard, harder than Nani and have struggled and pushed to get a contract renewal, feel when they saw Nani suddenly given a spanking new 5 year contract. It is hard to understand that decision especially given only a few months later we seem to be trying to sell and still can't shift him. If it was to keep his price well he won't have to take a pay cut to leave and that could make it more difficult for us.

As I said years ago Nani was on a relatively low wage. Somewhere between £40k-£50k a week. He is now on around £80k a week and that was made known to us by the clubs who tried taking him on loan. To think 18 months ago we could have got €27m for him. Clubs will not pay more than £10m for him now as he isn't featuring for us. Nani is incredibly frustrating at times, but sometimes you need that sort of player to do something special, something we have been missing of late. Ever since MU have been trying to sell him he hasn't produced anything special. He hasn't been the same player since 2011 and that's a shame because when he moves to another European side, he will be a very good signing for them.

02 Feb 2014 20:51:29
It's been 8 months, and it has been a disaster.

Moyes took over the champions of England. He has added Marouane Fellaini, Juan Mata and Adnan Januzaj to that squad. Rooney is playing better this season and De Gea has become a world class goalkeeper. All in all, our squad is better than last year.

Yet we're 7th, 15 points behind 1st place, 7 behind 4th. Out of the FA Cup at the 3rd round, and beaten by Sunderland in a semi final. Since the new year, we have lost 6 out of 8 games. SIX. That is relegation form. We are struggling to score goals, struggling to keep clean sheets and are playing the worst football I have seen us play in my lifetime.

Andre Villas Boas got sacked whilst doing much better.

So why do we continue with this man? Pride. Pride in the fact that we claim to be "different" to the rest. Yet the fact we are trying to be different to the rest, could be our downfall. Chelsea have had god knows how many managers over the last 10 years. And they've won more than us. Bringing on Welbeck yesterday for his height at corners, instead of Fletcher? A Manchester United manager thinking defensively whilst 1-0 down! Have you ever seen such a thing? Absolutely disgraceful.

The players quite clearly have absolutely ZERO faith in him. It's blatantly obvious. We may have an ageing side, but you don't deteriorate at this rate in such a short space of time, unless something is badly wrong.

I spoke to a United fan who was at Stoke yesterday. He told me that singing David Moyes' name during the match is not to show support, it's pride. Those same match going fans have the same doubts, the same lack of belief, frequent the same forums as us. They sing his name because they feel they have to. Not my words, his.

It's time to go.

Squad is better in attack on paper assuming that all players are available. They often haven't been. Midfield is worse after losing scholes and so is defence due to age/suspensions/injuries. Mata has only been available for two games, so not really fair to include him when comparing squad strength to last year?

AVB was given 18 months and the time/funds to build his own squad before being sacked.

I couldn't agree more I hate to see any manager loose his job so soon and I would have loved to have seen him be successful but I think at this stage DM is clearly not up to the job.

Totally agree. we have become a team of ridicule and devoid of any ideas and leadership. moyes was a long standing manager at everton and they have an ageing squad yet play good football under their new manager whilst in transition. we on the other hand have gone so far backwards its frightening and if we do nothing will continue to fall. get rid now before the rot is well and truly set. no half decent player will want to join us with moyes at the helm. we got lucky with mata as he was desperate for first team football and no one else matched his valuation. we will end up mid table unless we act now. he has lost the players and his medieval methods are an embarrassment to our great club

Popester, so you're saying that the midfield is worse this year because Scholes retired?

So Moyes spent £27.5m on a player that is worse, on paper, than a 38 year old Paul Scholes?

GAGUS, completely agree. The supporters have to make the distinction between supporting the club and supporting Moyes. We should only be supporting the manager if we think that his continued presence is a benefit to the club. He has had more than half a season and he has yet to demonstrate even the slightest ability to turn things around or get the best out of his players.

AVB at Chelsea is a better example, the club made a mistake hiring him, realised that he was the wrong man for the club, and they got rid of him. I've said that Moyes should have been on probation for his first season and if he didn't step up to the mark, we should go back to the drawing board and spend the rest of the season seeking out a proven winner.

Even the staunchest Moyesett can't provide a single shred of evidence that his style of play is working or that he is capable of adapting his tactics to get the most out of the squad. But until supporters start to realise that they can reject Moyes without being disloyal to the club, they will keep singing his name due to the fear of being branded a plastic fan or glory hunter. I am a real fan and I want what's best for the club. David Moyes has conclusively proven this season that he is not what's best for the club. He is the wrong one!

AVB at Chelsea is actually the perfect comparison. Poor tactics, poor football, lack of motivation. Above all, lack of results. They sacked him after they got hammered by Napoli and went on to win the CL and FA Cup.

Not saying we would do the same obviously, but there seems to be a mentality on here that every manager deserves time, regardless of results or performances. To sack a manager nowadays is almost seen as 'typical modern football', no matter how poor the manager is doing.

If Fergie had not said 'Stand by your manager', this forum would probably be a lot more anti Moyes.

Danny, a whole half a season? Wow. You're too generous, mate. You really are.

Man Utd will not collapse and die, just because we give a manager a chance to prove himself. And I mean properly prove himself, not just given a whole half a season.

You and the rest of the Chicken Licken brigade try to scare everyone by trying to make out that a long-term decline, like Liverpool, is inevitable if this season is a write-off.

Utter crap. The CL money lost, is a drop in the ocean, top players will still come to Utd, just like they did to Liverpool and Spurs, because good money, and playing in front of 70000 people every other week, is still attractive to most players.

Utd are going nowhere.

Would it really kill some of you to say, alright, we didn't like Moyes before, we still don't like him now, because we really wanted a sexy, foreign manager with a nice tan, but let's just give him a chance til next summer and see what sort of team he puts together, then judge? No? Too much to ask?

Some of you just seem to like complaining.

We are lucky enough to support a very successful club, but even during the years of success, right up until last season, some of you had to find things to moan about.

Danny - Yes I am absolutely saying that our midfield is worse without Paul Scholes. Fellaini isn't a Scholes replacement and hasn't had a chance to have a run in the team yet.

G.A.G.U.S - Sorry disagree. AVB had one good season at Porto and Chelsea took a chance on him. Not PL proven and no idea why Spurs pounced on him when he was kicked out of Chelsea.

If you want to compare manager transitions, why not BR at LFC? Or even SAF when he first took charge?

As a fan I want long term stability at the club not a manager revolving door. If after 18-24 months things show no sign of improving then fair enough, but half a season?

For those saying that the players have zero belief in DM, why have Adnan and Roo signed new contracts? Its not money before anyone says it. They would have received the same (or more) elsewhere.

Stevie, why do you find it so difficult to respond to the substantive content of the posts you regularly reply to?

You basically have two stock responses:

1. Make a derisory (humours?) comment about people who criticise Moyes.

And

2. Ignore the argument and, instead, make a passionate speech about Manchester United still being a force in world football.

This is a prime example: I replied to GAGUS by stating that supporters should only support Moyes if his continued presence benefits the club, and that there hasn't been a single shred of evidence, since the season started, that he is the right man for the job, that his tactics work, or that he is capable of implementing new ideas.

Now in the world of rational debate, some would look at the points being made and either be convinced by them or offer counter evidence to disprove the points. However, in the land of Stevie logic, the response is to brush off the points being made by intimating that you can't judge Moyes because he has only been there for half a season. The next step is to go off on a series of increasingly unrelated tangents that give the impression that you're rebutting the argument, when, in truth, you're just spouting meaningless nonsense.

Take a look back over your posts and tell me why you even bother replying to people when you have no intention of engaging with the points they're making.

02 Feb 2014 18:19:27
Good post Mick1 . Me like a lot of posters on here are only airing our views here out of frustration. With the same squad as last year and our current form the finger of blame is starting to point to Moyes! Is he not getting the best out of the squad or is it the squad not adapting to his management style or tactics?

Personally, I think SAF worked miracles with the teamhe had last year. let's not kid ourselves, the football we have played 95% of the time for the past 2+ years has been shocking. But, with SAF we were able to keep grinding out results and added to our competitors having poor seasons last year we won the league easily. It was totally down to SAF and a huge amount of consistency, not a great team playing great football.

Now we have Moyes and the same team know that a lot will not be here next season and, personally, I feel it is affecting their games. This isn't Moyes' fault and I wouldn't blame the players either, it is just how it is when a new guy comes in and the whole world knows huge change is needed. Evra and Rafael I feel are 2 examples of this. Then you have the ageing players like Rio, Vidic, Carrick etc who pretty much know their time is up too. Moyes needs a big summer window where he clear out who HE feels needs to go and brings in quality in their place. Then the first team and squad will know that they have a future at the club, we will have added quality which is much needed and a new confidence in the camp to really go for it again next season. We just have to ride this season out and pray we somehow scrape a fourth spot if at all possible.

I don't think its fair to compare last years results with this years for two reasons:

1) It is not the same squad.
- No Scholes
- Giggs, Ferdinand, Evra and Vidic are a year older and showing it.
- Injuries. SAF had a full year with Roo and RVP. Can't say the same for this year.

2) The competition has got a lot better. Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool and (arguably) Tottenham have all greatly improved for different but well documented reasons.

Do I think SAF would have got more points than DM at this stage of the season? Yes, but I don't believe he would have been top 3 either, and I don't believe that he would have started to tackle some of the longer term issues such as fixing the spine of the team and clearing out the squad.

Brendan, therefore the team can play better under better leadership.

Popester, what you are not taking into account is that SAF a) would have had the same coaching staff and b) probably would have signed some decent players during the summer, and having done so would have done better. If he'd had the same squad and the same injuries I still believe we would have 6-10 more points.

Peashooter, who's to say Fergie would have bought decent players - the midfield was ignored long before Moyes came along.

It could well have been left another year under Fergie- who knows?

{Ed004's Note - Fergie had a keen interest in Strooman and Thiago}

Not significantly Syd no, well in my eyes anyway. I think anyone who came in after SAF would have had the same problems as Moyes. Each would have handled it differently, but it can't be said for definite if they would have won more games or not.

This was SAF's team, he built it and rebuilt it. These were SAF's players who he knew inside out. The ageing and substandard players should have been replaced long ago (Anderson, Evra, Young etc) and not left knowing the new manager would get rid for sure, it was always going to cause problems with performance and morale. But Moyes can't be blamed, in my eyes. What should he do? Say he is going to keep them all and carry on with a sub standard team? I'd rather a poor year where the below standard players and those with the wrong attitude are weeded out and finally replaced. Then we can go again in August.

I'm certain Moyes will be a success, but he is going through a tough phase that any replacement would have struggled greatly with. Only a personality like Mourinho might have been able to handle it a bit better, but he is not what we need at United and even he, with our current group, would have struggled, as the players who pretty much know they are on the way, would have reacted the same way.

He's had interest in plenty of players over the years, Ed, but he didn't necessarily bid for them.

Who's to say he would have bid for those two either? That's my point. No-one knows for sure, except those involved.

In the meantime, fans use guesswork and supposition to suit their own viewpoints.

I agree Stevie, people were more against us signing Strootman on here than for it last season. He was too slow and not good enough according to most. Add to that the fact that Thiago was waiting for Bayern to bid as that was where he wanted to go and we would have missed out on him anyway. SAF may have left the CM yet again anyway, who knows.

02 Feb 2014 15:48:19
I'm not much of a tactician but there is something I do not understand.

We don't have big strikers/ attackers, we don't have good crossers, we're playing the most physically dominant side in the league, so why are we crossing at sight again?

We're playing with a makeshift, yet technically brilliant defense, technically capable midfield and technically capable forward line. Why give Stoke the ball by crossing it straight to their 6 foot 5 defenders? They are capable of hurting us especially with a shaky defense.

Why not keep possession, keep the pressure through the middle and kill off the game? Their defense struggles with fluid passing and interchanging attackers, so why did we play to their strengths?

And why play one of our top goalscorers in defensive midfield to bring on Danny freaking Welbeck when we could have put Darren Fletcher on? Rooney is better than Welbeck in attack, and Fletcher is better than Rooney in defensive midfield. It's puzzling and it makes absolutely no sense.

Despite us being unlucky, Moyes proved yet again that he has as much tactical knowledge as Ian Holloway. And if he doesn't get his crap together, some of the most hardcore fans will start calling for his end before the end of the season, and to a good reason.

{Ed004's Note - Was Welbeck brought on for his height at set pieces? He is better in the air than Fletcher and we had just lost Evans and Jones}

004, that is exactly why Welbeck was brought on. But that just shows that Moyes was more worried about conceding, than us scoring. Exactly what people have been saying all season.

Negativity!

He is more likely than Fetcher to score from an attacking set piece, but to defend a set piece I'd have Fletcher all day long. Welbeck has a decent jump on him, but doesn't have the positioning, experience, or ability to track a marker like Fletcher.

Had Fletcher come on, he would have offered a much more solid and combative midfield base, which, with the right tactics, would have allowed us to dominate play, and seldom be in a position where we will concede a free kick, and with Rooney, Van Persie, Mata, and Young, should have had enough firepower to score a couple of goals had they had a solid midfield foundation.

And imo, as long as Moyes keeps persevering with the run and cross tactic, we will finish nowhere near the top spots even if we strengthen the team.

And Ed004, how do you see Solskjaer's chances of managing us if he does a good job at Cardiff in the next couple of years? If Moyes doesn't win a trophy than I don't see us sticking with him more than 2-3 years.

{Ed004's Note - I agree my first thought was bring on Fletcher and suppose depends on how he does if he manages to keep Cardiff up and build a solid foundation with the club}

Ed004 does that not sum up exactly what's fundamentally wrong with Moyes's approach?

We are a goal down against one of the weakest side in the league and we lose a central defender due to injury. Moyes has to make a substitution and knows that he will have to push one of his midfielders back into defence. What is his first thought?

What can I do to stop us conceding another goal from a set piece?

Doesn't that tell you everything, a goal down and he's willing to sacrifice one of our biggest attacking threats so that we can counter the opposition's threat from set pieces. Moyes first thought in every game is, what can I do to contain the opposition? It doesn't matter if we're playing away against City or a goal down at home against Stoke, Moyes focuses on countering the opposition's strengths rather than attacking their weaknesses. And that is why he will never make it as a top manager, he starts from an underdog mentality and this has zapped all the confidence from the squad.

After the Community Shield, Moyes acted surprised and offended that we weren't seen as title contenders. The truth is that a David Moyes side will never be title contenders. 7 months in charge and no improvement and no new ideas.

Ed004 does that not sum up exactly what's fundamentally wrong with Moyes's approach?

We are a goal down against one of the weakest side in the league and we lose a central defender due to injury. Moyes has to make a substitution and knows that he will have to push one of his midfielders back into defence. What is his first thought?

What can I do to stop us conceding another goal from a set piece?

Doesn't that tell you everything, a goal down and he's willing to sacrifice one of our biggest attacking threats so that we can counter the opposition's threat from set pieces. Moyes first thought in every game is, what can I do to contain the opposition? It doesn't matter if we're playing away against City or a goal down at home against Stoke, Moyes focuses on countering the opposition's strengths rather than attacking their weaknesses. And that is why he will never make it as a top manager, he starts from an underdog mentality and this has zapped all the confidence from the squad.

After the Community Shield, Moyes acted surprised and offended that we weren't seen as title contenders. The truth is that a David Moyes side will never be title contenders. 7 months in charge and no improvement and no new ideas.

Danny, there is only so long people can blame the personnel. We know we need to improve our first XI, but we should be doing better than we are. Like I keep saying, SAF would have us up near the top. The players feel safe with him in charge, they feel lost with Moyes in charge. SAF was attack attack attack and Moyes is defend defend defend, the best form of defence is ATTACK!

Syd, when you think about it, the vast majority of the squad have become used to playing in footballing culture focused on winning the match. People wonder why SAF was so successful in motivating the troops, but it had a lot to do with his attacking philosophy: when the manager is focusing on targeting the opposition's weak points, it shows that he is confident in his own philosophy and the team's ability. Even players like RVP and Mata would be used to this attitude.

Now we have a manager who is far more concerned with stopping the opposition, and has hardly instilled confidence by claiming that he needs a handful of top class players to turn things around. The message to the players is clear: you're not good enough to beat the best and you'll be out the door as soon as we bring in better players. SAF may have fluffed the rebuilding job, but Moyes is responsible for the dip in form and confidence that is plaguing the squad. He's sending the team out to contain the opposition and depending on Sunday league attacking tactics, and he's going to be in charge for at least another full season. The players must be at a complete loss.

Hadn't Webeck been on a run of five goals in five appearances?

With hindsight it is easy to look on a decision that didn't come off and say it was wrong.

I'm amazed everyone has decided bringing on Welbeck instead of Fletcher was a defensive substitution!

It was a very Fergy- substitution in my opinion. This is just symptomatic of following in Fergy's footsteps. Succeed and everyone says it was expected, lose and everyone pick you apart and says you are not up to the task.

You have an attacking four including Rooney, RVP and Mata, our three best players. You have an injury to a defender so you look to your bench. You have a proven cm, one of the best young players in the league and you have Danny Welbeck.

So what do you do?

Obviously you shift your attacking talisman to midfield so that Danny Welbeck, whose main attributes are running fast and, sometimes, not tripping over his own feet, can play in the number 10 role. The only reason Welbeck was brought on was to add height from set pieces. It was a boneheaded decision from a manager who has been piddle all year.

Fergie earned the right to get the benefit of the doubt, Moyes has earned nothing but my dismay.

Dodgy, he brought Welbeck on and moved Rooney to CM. That was why it was negative. Welbeck came on instead of Fletcher simply because he was better at defending headers. At a time when we should have been more worried about scoring than conceding.

Danny, I couldn't agree more. The fact Mata, Rooney & RvP have been brought into the side and we look no different proves it's not the personnel that is the MAIN issue.

Forget bringing Fletcher on for Welbeck.

Fletcher should have STARTED instead of Cleverley!

I guess people see things from different perspectives Syd.

Dodgy, and that's what separates a good manager from a top quality manager. If us mere mortals can see what was wrong with those substitutes, then why couldn't an EPL manager? Moyes' negativity is killing us.

I find myself agreeing with Sydney, we needed goals and took RVP off and dropped Rooney into midfield, the two players whose absence up front has been one of the managers excuses for us not scoring goals and winning.

02 Feb 2014 15:32:49
Well it looks like nobody else wants 4th place either. As bad as we have been so far, none of the teams around us are showing much consistency. There are still 42 points to be played for, so who knows. I though after the game yesterday that 4th spot had gone, but who knows? Its still quite achievable. Having said that it shows how far we have fallen this season that we are holding onto hope that we can make 4th.

If we could get back even 60% of last season's belief, we would finish 4th.

The problem is not other teams, the problem is us. We are just not gelling well.

Betty

We have to rely on three teams failing to get 4th and my concern is that Liverpools goal difference effectively makes them 8 points in front. It will be very difficult but not impossible to get 4th, we are going to need to pick up wins against the Arsenal and especially Liverpool.

I wonder if SAF has conceded the title yet?

I think for us to finish 4th, we need to win at least 11 out of the 14 games left, which would give us 73 points. We would have course have to beat Liverpool and hope they lost a couple of games elsewhere, which I think they will. Everton and Spurs will drop at least 12 points, IMO, before the season ends.

It isn't an impossible task by any stretch of the imagination. We just need to beat the teams around us, and the teams below us. The top three are not even worth thinking about; although, that said, a win at the Arsenal would be a massive confidence boost.

We have the players' to mount a good run, but does the manager have the ability to get the best our of the players'? I really hope he does.

02 Feb 2014 18:45:14
We have no chance of top 4. we have to play city, lpool, everton, arsenal, southampton and newcastle and I have no faith in getting a couple of draws out of that lot never mind wins. heck I am worried about fulham next weekend and I cannot remember having so little faith in a utd team since big rons days. forget top 4 and decide what we do for next season. personally I would replace moyes now, we have become a laughing stock and I can just hear his excuses now if the unexpected does happen and we are beaten once more next week. he has lost the players and there is no going back. if we finish outside top 10 the pro moyes brigade will still refuse to apportion blame on the manager. plenty of teams in the premiership have new managers but do not hide behind excuses week in week out. moyes inherited the champions and has spent over 60 million and we are going backwards at a rate of knots. its his job to motivate and implement tactics and formations as well as team selection and he has been found wanting. the job is too big and I would respect the owners(begrudgingly) if they did the humane thing and put us fans out of our misery and replace him with immediate effects

02 Feb 2014 13:20:36
with toby alderweireld playing secong fiddle to other athletico players do you think he'd be a a good summer signing? do ed's rate him?

{Ed004's Note - No}

02 Feb 2014 13:38:07
Hello, before I get to my point, as a first time poster, I just wanted to say how much I enjoy using this forum and appreciate the reasoned comments that are regularly put forward. The eds are great and ed0002 in particular seem to have some yoda like qualities!

The loss yesterday was particularly gutting, following the high of mata arriving, Rooney and RVP being back in the squad and also the suspected end of the Rooney contract saga.

When appointed I thought that Moyes was the right choice for the following reasons:
1) Decade of proving he can cut it in the PL
2) Longevity of his stay at one club (proves he can build for long term and maintain relationships with the board/players etc - compare that to Jose for example).
3) He brings young players through
4) Successful. (in respect of available budget, other competition, stability etc. There are only three domestic trophies available and plenty of competition. If Wenger hasn't won anything in 8 years, then no shame in the same being true at Everton. In regards to the Martinez example. Give me stability any day over a cup and relegation - look at Leeds, Birmingham, etc etc).
5) Proved he is tough in adversity (Everton had a few poor runs but he turned it around)

I've been as surprised/dissappointed as anyone with the form this year but . in hindsight it shouldn't be so surprising:
1) Vastly Increased competition - Chelsea have stopped rafa baiting and have their talisman back, BR is now settled at LFC and has a VGC first team spine(if not depth), the Arsenal have finally clicked and added Ozil/Flamini, Man city have stopped in fighting, jettisoned Balotelli and spent a lot of money to top up what they already had and teams outside these 4 have spent vast amounts of money (Tottenham etc).
2) We didn't play well last year (but somehow sneaked results) - well documented but true. And that's with a fit RVP, Rooney for a full year. Plus the 'old brigade' were a year younger.
3) Ferdinand and Giggs have expired - They are legends but now another year older and squad players at best. Evra and Vidic aren't far away themselves.
4) Luck and injuries - the number of deflected goals, penalty decisions, injuries are a bit ridiculous at the moment.
5) Rooney drama - he spent his first summer / transfer window under the stress / shadow of the rooney saga. This

Have I been dissappointed with any aspects of Moyes management? Yes.
1) He changes the team too much. He seems a bit transfixed on 'using the squad' instead of picking the strongest team every week to get run going.
2) He plays cleverly/giggs etc instead of Fletcher too often. (see previous comment).
3) Don't always agree with his post match s(but still rather have that than the hypocritical bile dished out by mourinho every week)
4) Haven't seen a significant improvement yet in the style of play, but then again that's been an issue for the last few years and isn't likely to change until the defence and midfield are sorted out.

Do I think he deserves more time? Absolutely.
1) I think he was right not to make drastic kneejerk changes last summer. Everyone has had a chance to earn their jersey.
2) He is getting rid of a lot of the dead wood (Anderson, Nani, Fabio etc) and he isn being ambitious in regards to new signings. We need first team, not squad players.
3) He and woodward have clearly learnt from their first window and January was handled much better.
4) Despite limited experience he took MU to top of the CL group.
5) He looks to have sorted the Rooney situation out. Whatever your thoughts on Rooney or his reported wage he will now enter the summer window with that monkey off his back and the club are back in control of when or if he is sold rather than the player.
6) The reasons that he was appointed are still valid. Their is nothing to be gained from sacking him now. He should be give at least until the end of the next campaign when he will have had a summer window to create his own team.

Sorry for the long post. In a nutshell I believe he clearly deserves to be given significantly more time.

{Ed004's Note - Great post though don't forget to log in}

While he's in charge we will never get anywere

Good post, well done in exposing Ed002. She (or he) is indeed more than likely to be Yoda or some Jedi master.

Good, reasoned post, mate. Followed by one that's not.

OP

I think in terms of giving the manager more time, if the incumbent had been Klopp or similar then I would be on your side and would be imploring everyone to hang in there. In fact I doubt we would be having this discussion, not because we trusted a Klopp standard manager but we would not be in this position. However the manager we got has not proved or shown he has what it takes to build a winning team. The gravitas and experience is not there, yet you and several others are asking us to trust he will get it right and I don't buy that he will. There is too much sentimentality in the keep supporting him brigade, looking at it coldly he is clearly out of his depth in a role he wasn't ready for and he has nowhere near the experience SAF had when he arrived plus back then he didn't inherit the champions. My worry is that the decision is sentimental, we are United and don't do things like that, all the while we are regressing.

The worry too is that he's brought two players coasting £65m and januzaj to a championship winning side and yet we are struggling to be in 7th spot., 8 loses already. Knocked out of cups against inferior opposition.
But above all, his total lack of charisma, tactics, confidence is killing the players belief, and once that happens, there is no way back.
Can we honestly say that we have seen anything positive since he came in?

Like I mentioned elsewhere, Red Man, 25 years of gravitas and experience, didn't stop you from slating Fergie last season - before he went on and won the league.

You were wrong in your view on how you saw that season panning out, especially after the lack of signings last summer.

How do you know you're right about this?

02 Feb 2014 13:16:36
Agree completely with United we stand. Its been well documented but evra amongst others has been past his best for at least 3 seasons. How fergie didn't replace with a top left back beats me. Yesterday was perfect example where left midfielder has to cover for evra and can't concentrate fully on doing his main job.
Fergie was a brilliant manager but became complacent in last 3-4years . The ruthlessness that led to departures of hughes, stam etc was no longer there so we still have the evras, ferdinands giggs, list goes on as first teamers. Present situation owes a lot to fergie. Will support Moyes but am a bit taken aback at how badly things have turned out.

L73 the ruthlessness shown against Beckham, Keane, Stam, Hughes and RvN was not because they were playing badly. It was because they had arguments with him.

02 Feb 2014 12:30:04
The worrying part of all this and the thing the Glazers will be looking at and worrying about is that they have already giving this guy the best part of 70m and we are no better whatsoever in fact if anything are getting worse.

DD, I think Moyes will buy the right players which means if he did leave or was sacked in the future, then whoever comes in will have the right players to take the club forward. I still think if we sign top midfielders and fullbacks, we would be transformed, even with Moyes in charge. The way Moyes plays you need to have busy midfielders, but more importantly disciplined fullbacks.

Devil

I am hoping the Glazers are thinking exactly that, we have given him £65m and look where it is taking us. That should quickly lead to Let's get someone who knows what they are doing.

There will be a barrier to a decision like that not least pride and the need to admit to such a major error plus the fact that it would be a major embarrassment to SAF. Therefore I expect them to bottle the big decision for some time, until it starts to hurt them financially perhaps. Whilst it doesn't hurt them until they need to issue new ones I wonder how they will feel if the share price tumbled again when the market opens, especially should we be nine points and a big goal difference behind 4th place and CL football.

My worry Syd is by the time that happens he will sucked the life out of this club.

If players start to doubt him and his tactics you would worry if he can ever get that back.

First up he needs to forget his ancient 442 and play his best players we all know that should be a top 4 of the usual suspects but RVP as our out and out Striker and the other 3 interchanging behind him but he seems completely lacking in ideas or the bravery to play in such a way.

City spent 30m more on their new manager and are having considerably different results ain't they? It's a good point that in spite of summer transfer fiasco the Glazers will now consider their 64m investment should be 'enough' considering what's happening elsewhere. Considering ours was a championship winning squad under the previous manager.

Moyes has always looked out of his depth, notwithstanding he inherited a squad that seemingly had overachieved considerably and is without a world class centre mid or left back (to quote the obvious).

But the question the Glazers have to be asking themselves is do we back him in the summer? Whilst Fergie et al may talk up publicly that Moyes will be backed ultimately it's not their club. Not their money (or dubious financial dealing to buy us in the first place), not their 'brand'.

If Mourinho had be given 64m to improve the squad where would we be now? Same for Klopp and the host of others whose name should've been in the frame before Moyes.

Mata will prove to be a great signing for us but ultimately not for Moyes in my view.

This season is already written off by anyone with eyes who can see that Liverpool, Everton and Spurs are all better teams than us. So we are 4th best in the race for 4th!

We will not have European football at all next season and unless Moyes gets off to a flyer in first 10 games next season surely he'll be out.

Question is will he last that long?

And to be blunt that depends on who else is available to take over the reins. It's implausible to me that Mourinho was not at least considered for the job. Whilst that ship has well and truly sailed we must not make the same mistake now in whomever is the next United manager. We should be assessing who is or who will be available to take over. It's just a matter of time.

That's not being disloyal. That's not reacting to a few bad results. That's an objective assessment of a man who's proven thus far from his 24 league games that he's not United quality.

Not matter how much money is thrown at mr clueless could be 500mil the fact is we would still be in same boat he's the wrong manager and as long as he's with us it will all be the same, stupid subs, crap tactics, wrong team, boring football, the list goes on

DD, our best line-up is the 4231 with Rooney behind Van Persie. Rooney pulling the strings and with Mata and Adnan either side of him, it should fit nicely. Stick Fellaini and Jones in CM to protect the CB's. This would give the fullbacks licence to get forward.

02 Feb 2014 11:51:46
Does anyone else agree that a lot if not all our problems could be solved with a new LB? Evra offers nothing defensively these days & Adnan won't be played because of that.

Evra is a liability a accident waiting to happen and is IMO the sole reason for complete panic in the back line everyone that comes into his area has to cover for him.

He is the worse excuse for a defender I can remember at Old Trafford he doesn't even try get into position and passes attackers on to other defenders time and time again he has become a coward of a defender.

New right back also as Rafael far too inconsistent and thinks he is so much better than he really is! smalling too bloody clumsy to play there, likewise Jones

100% disagree with replacing Rafael, he was one of our best players last season and because he has hit a bad patch of form we should give up on him. He's still a very young lad remember. I think syd agrees with you though from a post the other day.

Have to disagree with ya about Jones I think him and another quality CB would be a real force Jones is a warrior a leader someone who will put his head where other guys wouldn't put there foot.

01 Feb 2014 19:37:08
Can I ask all the eds and regular posters especially Sydney (who talks sense) what their solution would be?

For me it's the set up, we're playing 4-4-2 when we have a flurry of attacking players, I would play the same set up as Chelsea and have Januzaj, Mata and Rooney behind Rvp. Scrap all this get to the byline and whip it in nonsense, we need to play a formation that gets the best from our players, Kagawa, Young, nani and Valencia would easily fit in this system to.

I look at Liverpool, player for player I would only take Suarez and possibly Gerrard over our equivalents? The difference is Rodgers has changed their tactics and has them playing in a system that gets the best out of their players.

I just don't see the point in buying Mata and putting him on the wing? We did that with Kagawa and it's ruined him.

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts and solutions.

Cheers

{Ed004's Note - I think we struggle to play a fluid front 3 cause Moyes is worried Kagawa and Januzaj don't offer enough cover for Evra}

004, and Evra needs plenty of cover :)

I've posted earlier that Moyes is not the man to lead us but to answer the OP re style and formation I think Mata has been bought as either Rooney or RVP (indirect) replacement and I'm just not sure which.

I think we could play Januzaj-Mata-Rooney behind RVP, ie Mata as main creative force with Rooney pushed right in a 4231.

I suspect though that from Moyes time at Everton and what we've seen thus far he's looking more at 4411 which means, given widespread speculation about Rooneys 300k pw new deal it's our fave Dutchman that's heading for the exit door.

No insider knowledge but just calling it how I see it. Plays Mata in best position, gives Rooney the top dog billing he craves. Don't think Mata has been bought so we can play all 3 at same time. I hope I'm very much wrong as would love RVP, Mata and Rooney as a fluid frontline in a 433 but we don't have good enough midfield to support that.

Syd's got a boyfriend, Syd's got a boyfriend :)

Mac, with the players we have we should be comfortably in the top three. The players have not dealt with SAF's retirement well at all. I don't think the players believe in Moyes. Our mojo will return sooner or later, but I am not sure it will happen in time for us to finish 4th.

The difference between MU and Liverpool is they know the way they want to play and they know how to execute it. Our squad is much better than theirs and our first XI is better than theirs, we are just in a slump and where we are low on confidence, they are buzzing with confidence.

The only player who Liverpool have that is exceptional, is of course Suarez. He is world-class, the rest are decent or ordinary. We need 3-4 top players added to our squad no doubt, but we should still be challenging with this current squad, just like last season.

02 Feb 2014 03:56:44
Phew! At least we are safe with 40 pts!

02 Feb 2014 00:55:20
I have been watching it all for the last few months and have to give my opinion on some of it.
1. Moyes - just seems to be an unlucky manager, I was happy enough when he was appointed but maybe has to to go at the end of the season. ( I'm not fully decided on that )
2, David De Gea - fanatastic keeper -needs to dominate his area and be quicker off the line.
3. Raphael - started off like he was going to be one of the best full backs in Europe - now seems to be trying too hard and looking vulnerable.
4. Phil Jones - Always getting injured, never near being like Duncan Edwards. Needs a run at centre back.
5, Chris Smalling - not United quality, can't pass the ball more than 10 metres.
6. Johnny Evans - Okay but does not dominate games like Vidic used to.
7. Vidic - legend but nearing the exit.
8. Rio - similar
9. Evra- similar
10. Carrick - has to work the midfield on his own, I feel a bit sorry for him in that regard.
11. Cleverly - Never seen him make a good tackle, doesn't offer anything.
12. Wellbeck - going backwards - used to a least work hard and hassle the defenders, doesn't seem to even do that now.
13. Young & Nani- most inconsistent United players - 1 good game 4 bad.
14. Valencia - I like his attitude but totally one footed and never drives at the defence like he used to. Keeps getting gaught napping when deployed at full back.
15. Rooney - over hyped but still one of the top players in the Premier League - needs top players around him to bring the best out of him.
16. RVP - Total class but again needs the service.
17. Mata - will be a legend
18. Januzaj - is nearly a legend already
19. Bring back Zaha and Powell
20. Kagawa - never really got a good chance in his best position - will probably be sold.
21. Chicarito - Has got a touch like an elephant - should be kept as an impact sub - but will he want to.
22. I don't like United losing but can take it better if we play attractive football and do the basics like pass the ball, tackle, close down, not hoof the ball when under pressure and look like they are enjoying playing football.
23. Need a lot of quality in the summer
24. Tired now after that going to bed and we better beat Fulham.

Good post, agree with all of it

Lfc supporter, I come in peace, please do not think this is meant to be inflammotary or sarcastic.
As a complete outsider, what is obvious is that united do not have any strength in depth. You have 5 good players, rooney, rvp, mata, januzaj, de gea and that's it. Look at citys strength in depth, its phenominal and so is vhelskis. Lfc strength in depth is nowhere near citys or cheslkis but ovrrall we have great players in attack supported by decent players throughout theeam, so we are slightly better than united. Suarez, sturridge, sterling, coutinhogerard, allen, lucas, henderson, agget, skrtl, johnson, mignolet etc. its a better squad.,

Agree with most of that. Excellent post and you need the rest after all that!

{Ed004's Note - I disagree about Smalling}

I think come the end of the season we should think about selling either or both of Welbeck and Chicharito. Neither show any signs at improving on the parts of their game that let them down.

I also disagree about Smalling I think he's a good passer, fast and strong and good in the air. We've just had a lot of bad luck with injuries at the back which means we're constantly changing our CB which is a big problem. The most important partnership you need in a team is between the two CB and the GK, there's no stability in defence if you don't have that. Clearly we're lacking that with all the stupid goals we're conceding ATM.

Tel, it's a simple thing called "zero confidence", players playing negatively (Moyes' way) and serious injury issues.

Our squad is vastly better than Liverpool's, the difference is you are playing well and we are not.

I agree wiv all of it, especially Smalling. I'd only keep him as a squad player. Good at times, but gives the ball away too much. He nearly gave Stoke a third yesterday too. We really missed out on Varane.
Sounds a bit desperate, but I'd have got Lescott for a short fix. I'll be amazed if we don't go all out for a LB in the summer. Evra was more a winger than defender yesterday, and to be fair to Rafael, Arnautovic is Stokes best player and is a real problem for any RB in the world when in this form.

{Ed004's Note - I disagree with everyone with Smalling. Baring in mind centre backs peak at 26 or so he has another 2 yrs of gaining experience. In the past month he was Motm against Sunderland and Cardiff IMO dominating set pieces and being fantastic under the high ball. His tackling is very good and he is very quick. As long as he's partnered with a good ball playing centre back I think he will be fine. His positioning will improve with games and his passing with confidence. He needs to work on his technical ability and he will become a fantastic defender. I reckon a centre back partnership of Smalling and Mangala would be terrific as it has pace, speed and height so we could easily play a high line}

Agree with all except Smalling (like Ed004) - he can't pass the ball 5 yards!

Smalling needs to play at CB regularly alongside Jones so they can build a partnership. CB's need a run of games and Smalling rarely disappoints at CB. For a player that is just shoved around in different positions or left on the bench, he does better than Evans does even when Evans gets to play where he wants every game.

I really hope he comes good at supplying the midfield at least. I just find myself very Jeckyll and Hyde with him during games. Heaping praise then questioning myself 2 minutes later. I just worry that he hasn't kicked on yet. (To extent of mentioning Lescott. lol)

Disagree with u Syd, Evans has been much more consistent than Smalling. I feel Evans offers more to the CB position than Smalling. I'd much rather Jones/Evans than Smalling/Evans at this time. But it's no secret we could do with a new experienced (In Europe) CB.

The reason Evans has looked more consistent (debatable), is because he has had a long run of games at the back. All CB's need this and Smalling albeit not the best with the ball, is the better defender of the two.

In your opinion of course, Syd :)

Yes Stevie, in my humble opinion. Where are you from Stevie? Northern Ireland by any chance :)

Well I'm not from and Ireland. You think that because your in agreement with Ed004 and more than likely a certain number of the brotherhood, the whole of United fans should be too.? A bit patronizing there Syd.

Whatever led you to think that, mate? :)

But I'm totally impartial :)

I put northern not and btw

Patzi, my point was (and in a friendly way) Stevie is from NI and so is Evans. Many (not all) are massive fans of Evans because he's a local lad to them and they want to see a local lad succeed. I think Evans is a good defender, but I wouldn't want him first choice. In fact I don't see either of Smalling and Evans being first choice in the future. Jones plus one for me, perhaps Garay.

02 Feb 2014 00:56:12
Why does DM insist on a 4-4-2? Those days are long gone where wingers got to the byline & cross, old school. We should be playing 4-3-2-1 or 4-2-3-1 to play to our strengths & push the back 4 up & squeeze play. We are always so deep causing huge gaps in midfield. Games are won in midfield & you have to earn the right to win games. We've lost the art of tackling, & lack pace, teams just run at us & have space & choices to play through balls, shoot or drive at us, I really don't get it, basic stuff. We buy Juan Mata, terrific player, but why buy a Ferrari if you are going to drive it like a Fiat?

Angry MAD DOG

Because the guy who bought the Ferrari has been used to driving Fiat's at Everton!

You need to get your Ferrari serviced as our Fiat is running perfectly, just joking, I think you will finish above Everton just give DM time as Fergie didn't do him any favours, he left him an ageing team who are set in Fergie's ways, hard act to follow, who ever you had got as manager would have struggled in their first season.