Manchester United Banter Archive May 30 2013

30 May 2013 23:18:13
why is everyone ruling out ferdinand, he's probably been the best centre half in the league this year but yet people are still saying next year it should be vidic and evans

He's going on 35, he can't play every game so he'll most likely be a bit-part player.

He's 35 isn't he? With a dodgy back.

You can't expect him to be playing as many games as Evans.

I think Jonny's earned his chance to start with Vidic, and then see how it goes.

Rio will still get his fair share of games.

31 May 2013 00:36:50
It will be Rio's final year next year, with that in mind then we need to look towards the future. Evans Smalling and Jones need games. And Vidic still makes a huge difference to our team. I read a statistic somewhere that said last season we conceded 1. 8 goals a game in all the games without Vidic and only 0. 7 goals a game with him. So on average we concede one less goal every game Vidic plays. So I would say that means he should play in most games. Rio will still have a big part to play next year, but I would expect Vidic and Evans be the prefered choice.

30 May 2013 22:17:53
I'd be happy with a summer of:

- Thiago Alcantara (Barca, �18m)
- Kevin Strootman (PSV, �15m)
- Guillermo Varela (Penarol, £1.5m)
- Leighton Baines (Everton, £12m)
- Angel Di Maria (Real, �20m)

Eds, is there concrete interest/negotiations with all above mentioned players? and do you think we could realistically sign them all this summer?

cheers,

tbir. {Ed004's Note - There does appear to be interest in all those player from Manutd}

Sounds pretty realistic tbh.

30 May 2013 21:37:46
Has anyone got the list of the reserve/youth players being released from their contracts at the end of this season?

Thanks,

tbir.

30 May 2013 21:12:23
lool people actually thought we would get fabregas. Sky have confirmed he is staying

Sky? it must be true then

30 May 2013 21:44:28
yup

30 May 2013 21:49:42
I never thought we were likely to sign Fabregas. But you could be shooting your bolt too early. Sky have only had their spanish football expert (and I use the term expert loosely) say that he won't be leaving. I would wait until you hear from the club and or the player.

But I've always thought Thiago was much more likely than Fabregas.

I'd wait and see what happens.

I remember sky said hazard wanted to come to us.

I would love to see us sign Fabregas, he would be perfect next to Carrick and just behind Kagawa. Well we can dream I suppose. Although Fabregas is still an option.

Ballague is the same guy who said we had made a down payment on Falcao which we know is not true. He has given other info from his sources in the past which hasn't been anywhere near the truth.

I wouldn't call him an expert. The guy has a lack of understanding of player contracts and keeps mentioning Buyout clauses and is largely confused between that and release clauses.

REDFAITH

Ballague was also the pundit who many years ago said that Ronaldinho to United was 100% certain. Don't believe a word of his BS. This doesn't mean that Cesc is on his way but Ballague is a fraud!

30 May 2013 20:32:56
If we did sign Fabregas - would we have to change our Anderson song?

NEVER!

Shouldn't be sang anyway, he's a fat waste of space, I'm better than Kleberson.

Brendan81

Yes but I always liked the song but he has not lived up to it I am afraid. We could change it the other way round I suppose?

30 May 2013 19:56:58
So, apparently, we are going to sign Baines, Barkley and Fellaini from Everton, Fabregas and Thiago from Barcelona, not forgetting Di Maria from Madrid and of course Strootman. That's some team we are going to have next year. I know it's silly season and whilst there may be some truth to some of them, I think we need to accept the next month will just be a revolving door of rumours. Pass me the Anadin

I expect us to be interested in every player in all the big leagues. Expect Messi to be David Moyes' 'list' this summer too! ;)

AJH, I think it's more of a case that we are looking at midfielders, left wingers and left backs. There will always be several players looked at. Only MU know who we will go for.

Sydney!

It would take business like that to make this club great again

'Make this club great again' - what, since we last won the league, er. last season.

StevieK

It s 5 years since we won in Europe, if we don't buy the quality we need how long do you think it will be before we can win the big one again?

Red Man

5 years for a Champions League is not that long and we have made two finals in that time, but I do agree that money needs to be spent.
DHK

30 May 2013 19:46:35
Fabregas will meet with Barcalona officials to discuss his future.

Andyp MUFC

Well he has not been first choice at Barcelona and he would be perfect at United. Sign him up and maybe tell him to bring Sanchez with him.

30 May 2013 18:44:21
Manchester United have had a �1.5 million bid for Guillermo Varela rejected according to reports emerging from Uruguay.

The bid was believed to include a future payment of �800,000 to be paid in �200,000 instalments every time Varela plays ten games or more per season as a starter.

And El Diario suggest that Varela's club Penarol will hold out until after the U20 World Cup in the hope that his price will rise due to his performances but the fact that 30% of Varela is owned individually by Paul Bentancur, the agent who brought Gaston Ramirez to Southampton in the summer, may complicate procedures.

more news to come on thiago and strootman because Manchester United has sign both players but its will be announced after euro u21 championship but cesc is definately staying at barcelonia next season.

MR UTD7

30 May 2013 17:21:43
Unconfirmed reports that we have agreed a deal with Barca for Fabregas, as the Catalans have decided to let Cesc go but keep Thiago whom they have handed Cesc's number 4 jersey. , Edd anything u kno {Ed002's Note - Twitter?}

30 May 2013 14:00:26
De Gea is looking good in training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV1no-QyFuI

30 May 2013 13:01:03
I notice a few comments here on who would people prefer Cesc or Thiago if rumorus true. Not getting involved in that but why are people saying Thiago can't play in a four man midfield?
1) Has anybody ever seen him play in one?
2) Who says we will play with 2 midfielders under Moyes

More importantly what I have seen of Thiago he possesses a great natural ability of ball retention and a very good awareness of those around him, which is somethign we should be lookin gfor replacing Paul Scholes, who played the majority of his career in a four man midfield, as by the way has Fabregas who would have ebeen used to Bareclonas way of playing when joining Arsenal. I would be very happy if either was signed but I don't buy into any of this tactical twaddle some people are spouting seemingly experts on here
Invisible STuey

30 May 2013 09:39:44
The Fabregas story does seem interesting although i'm not sure if its believable or not. We may have an interest but if we can actually pull this off is another thing altogether, especially with City interested too apparently. We were interested in the likes of Sanchez, Moura, Hazard too in the past and got neither of them so let's not get ahead of ourselves. I think interest is at an initial stage, but IF we have opened talks with Barca it clearly indicates Fabregas' agent has made it known to us that he is interested in leaving.

@Red Man, you seem against signing Strootman. Don't read too much into the "Gareth Barry" comparisons, he is a much better player than that with a better passing range and mobility. I think you fear that if he comes in, he will be our only midfield signing and hence the slight negativity towards the idea. I believe we will bring in two central midfielders Fabregas/Thiago AND Strootman/Fellaini. We only have Carrick and Cleverley as regular central midfielders and Anderson may leave with Fletcher and Scholes already out I think we need two to compete in Europe and the League.

Also I don't think we will be seeing the 2 man midfield often. Moyes doesn't like playing with two strikers and I think its a good move for us to change tactics to a three man central midfield to cope with the demands in Europe and it will bring the best out of RVP and Kagawa. Moyes seems to have clearly identified midfield as the weak area and a 3 man midfield with Kagawa, Fabregas/Thiago, Carrick/Strootman does look a mouthwatering. We have wanted a change in tactics in midfield for quite a long time now.

Fabregas hasn't progressed at Barcelona imo and the move doesn't seem to have worked out for him. He thrives when given more responsibility in midfield and given freedom to play few more risky passes and having to open up defenses. At Barca with their team based mostly on sharing a lot of responsibility in midfield and too much emphasis being based on short passes and ball retention I think he hasn't been as influential. He looked a much better player in the EPL and Arsenal's "Beautiful Football" died with his departure.

Fabregas also delivers corners and indirect free kicks which would allow us to have RVP in the box. I see lots of positives in signing him, the only negative being his history of muscle injuries and niggles in the EPL in the past. He can also play equally well as an attacking midfielder behind the striker so if Kagawa gets injured we won't have to change tactics and play Strootman and Carrick behind him.

Also the departure of the coaching staff and the interest and focus on central midfield imo shows that Moyes isn't going to be a yes man or Sir Alex's puppet and is going to bring his own ideas and stamp his authority on the squad.

Really hope we sign Fabregas, Strootman and Di Maria and get rid of Nani, Anderson. That would be a great summer.

REDFAITH

Great post red faith, I pretty much agree with all you've said.

assuming the interest/discussions are genuine and the clubs can agree a fee, then it basically comes down to what fabragas wants.

does he feel he can force himself into the barca team? is he happy being a bit part player 'cos he's at the club he loves? or does he fancy having a crack at being a central figure at one of the world biggest clubs and the opportunity to be a footballing legend?

I don't think i'm over stating what's on offer to fabragas. the question is can he see past the perpetual Manchester rain to recognise the significance of being wanted as manchester utds heartbeat? would he welcome the challenge or is he happy to remain in the comfort zone of sunny Spain?

his decision is whether to reject unrequited love of barca in favour of professional and personal ambition at utd. a dilemma worthy of any Russian novel.

then again, maybe he doesn't give a toss about playing for Manchester United and we'll see him in noisy neighbour blue next season

Andrew b

REDFAITH

I am not against Strootman as I haven't seen him to evaluate him

My point was that if we were buying him to command our midfield in the Premier League and in the CL then it is a risk as despite playing in Holland he has not done it at the highest level when it matters. I compared him to Fabregas who has all the attributes. When I have seen Strootman then I will comment better

Red Man

Red man united can say that though of any player playing in Holland, France, Scandinavia, Mexico. That's the gamble that you take with signings. Who's to say proven quality is always guaranteed to be a success? Veron and Berbatov, both classy skilfully technical players flopped.

Exactly mate. I think you are assuming it will be either or between the two. I think its more likely to be Fabregas/Thiago AND Strootman. surely that would be good additions to midfield.

REDFAITH

REDFAITH

Fabregas and Strootman for midfield would be very good but we still need a special player. However knowing the club and the way we spend money I would expect Strootman and DiMaria rather than Fabregas and Ronaldo. That would leave Moyes a little exposed for me but we shall wait and see

Red Man

29 May 2013 20:56:38
Ed will united buy di Maria in the summer? {Ed004's Note - Hopefully and there is interest but it is far from being done}

30 May 2013 07:27:44
Eds, please clarify if there is a £25m buy-back clause in between Arsenal and Barca. I have a source claiming that this will make the deal in between Man utd and Barca a little more difficult. Much appreciated.
JS {Ed004's Note - I don't think there is}

Simple truth is that we don't know until they have proved they will.

Non of us know how much Fergy genuinely asked for over the last few years, whether he was the one refusing to spend "silly money" or whether the club was limiting him.

Cynical fans (who may be right or wrong!) will point out that we are consistently linked in the press with big money glamorous signings (Bale, Moura, Sneijder, Sanchez, etc etc) shortly before season ticket renewal, only to fail in our attempt as we are out bid on fee or wages.

RVP was a big money signing, but remember he was in the last year of his contract - so his value was more reasonable.

Should be an interesting summer.

There is a saying a scotsman would not never have a problem spending someone elses money, so my tke on it is the glazers limited the transfere funds to SAF that's why the squad is in need of improvement with top quality players but I won't be holding my breath, as for the signing of rvp that come within weeks of the the flotation on US market and the rumours of who would benifit financially which off course was SAF

30 May 2013 03:19:06
Who would our regular centreback pairing be next season? I would still pick vida and rio to play most of the games with evans, smalling and jones obvuously alternating. I just feel the rio vida partnership has one last season. Rio looked reasonably good and vida fingers crossed looks back, though I am sure its tough to replicate their 2007 - 2009 form due to loss of pace, injuries.
Mancunian dream

Evans (Smalling/Jones) and Vidic (Rio)

Steffen

I wouldn't disagree but we do need to start playing Phil Jones there pretty regularly too. He's not a full back or a midfielder and the danger is he'll become jack of all trades and master of none unless he's allowed to settle in his best position.

Jones and Vidic with evans as back up. Rio as extra cover. Jones time to show his quality and gain experience as he starts his journey to utd captain and legend

30 May 2013 09:30:19
I expect Evans will be the main stay with Rio or Vidic playing along side him depending on the opponant. Smalling and Jones will get cup games and come in for injuries I would expect. Smalling may push his way back into first choice if he can recapture his form and stay injury free.

I guess evans form the last season or so dictates that he be given a run. vida evans looks good. hope smalling regains fitness.
Mancunian dream

Phil Jones has to start most games, has the potential to be one of the best in the world

30 May 2013 13:16:15
It will be Evans and Vidic with Rio in for experience and Smalling trying to force his way. Jones is far too talented to waste in defence.

30 May 2013 13:39:51
It will be Evans and Vidic with Rio in for experience and Smalling trying to force his way. Jones is far too talented to waste in defence.

I think Jones deserves a chance at cb, I mean look at varane at madrid he's younger than jones and looks pretty good. I rate jones higher than smalling or evans for the future and i'm sure most people do, so let's see how good he can be.
DHK

30 May 2013 02:24:45
Assuming we don't get either Bale or Ronaldo, I'm completely content with an attacking three of RVP, Rooney and Kagawa, with RVP up top and both Rooney and Kagawa playing off of him and free to drop deeper or wide if needed. Carrick sitting in front of the back four of course. That leaves two spots. If we are able to sign Fabregas, or a midfielder like him who can get into the box and score goals, then I think we should play a 4-1-2-2-1, with Fabregas and Anderson split in front of Carrick. When the opponents have possession they can fall back into a very solid central 3, and when in possession both Fabregas and Anderson can make penetrating runs and passes into the front three and link up in interplay as well. Carrick doesn't get forward so we need the other five to all be able to do so (huge problem in recent years when Carrick has been partnered by someone like Scholes or Cleverley who also like to sit back and rarely get too far forward). I know Ill get resistance to Anderson, but if he can actually stay fit and healthy he does give the side a CM who can attack defenses and create openings for others, not simply distribute like Carrick or Cleverley. Also, I realize this team lacks wingers, and Rooney and Kagawa, while capable, are both most dangerous from a central position. However, we get so much attacking ability from both Rafael and Evra/Buttner we can send either FB marauding down the touchline every possession, especially if we have three defensively responsible CMs who can cover if needed. This formation also allows for an easy shift by simply substituting Anderson for a winger we can move to 4-4-2 or a more attack-minded 4-2-3-1. I'm still hoping for a Bale/Ronaldo, but if we aren't able to sign one, Fabregas and perhaps a LW to replace Young would be fine with me. Still need to find matches for Zaha, Powell, Janzuaj, etc.

Kg

I stopped reading at Anderson.

Andrew b

30 May 2013 09:34:53
Anderson will either leave or die under Moyes extremely hard work out fitness regime. So I wouldn't expect to see him.

I'm betting die.
DHK

29 May 2013 19:52:19
Ed do you see us announcing any deals for players before july1st? Any info on anything being nearly done?
Cheers
Dc {Ed002's Note - No idea.}

30 May 2013 00:21:13
There's something i've been considering over the last few days to do with how we could line up next season. The recent links to Strootman and Thiago are what started it. It may be seen as controversial, and I know several of you will dismiss it without giving it real thought. But here we go.

I've been thinking of how Moyes could set the team up next year, i've considered things such as previous tactic's he's used, his love of thr Bundesliga, the players he will have available and the players we seem to be linked to.

Now i've said I would like to see us move in to a 4312 type formation to give us extra cover in the middle and to accomedate Kagawa and our strikers all in one formation. While also allowing for the loss of form and probably number of wingers we have. But i've always known that this was unlikely to happen. It maybe something that Moyes plays with in the future but it would require a slow adaption and would cause quite abit of disruption to begin with.

So if not this then what is Moyes likely to do next season?

I think he will stick to the 4231 formation, it wouldn't mean totally rebuilding but mearly a few tweaks to adjust it to suit what I believe Moyes will want to do.

Now some players pick themselves without a second thought. De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Carrick and RvP will be certainties if fit. Either Evra or Buttner or maybe a new LB, Evans will probably be first choice alongside Vidic. So that's the back four sorted and the striker. But were missing a player in midfield and the three behind the striker.

In the heart of midfield there seems to be one target who's name keeps coming up, Kevin Strootman. This happens because imo he is the perfect midfielder for us. He averages over 4 tackles a game and 3 interception, so he's great at shielding the back four. But that's not where his game ends. He is also an expansive passer and has managed 12 assists while also chipping in with 9 goals this season. Plus he averages over 70 passes a game with a 90% success rate so he recylces the ball well and helps dictate play though possession. Him and Carrick will work excellently together.

Moyes is a fan of the Bundesliga and as such will likely take some inspiration in form with his tactics. He will likely like to see us push high up the pitch and pressure teams such as Dortmund and Bayern do.

Thats why I don't see us signing another winger, wingers don't tend to do enough defensive work nor is their passing up to standard. Plus they tend to lose possession alot.

Kagawa I think will be a key player for Moyes, he has played the type of system Moyes will likely want to bring in.

Thiago has also been linked, he's probably not strong enough to play in the heart of midfield in the premier league. Besides Carrick and Strootman would do a better job in that role than him. So I think he would best be suited to playing in the three behind the striker. Maybe on the right of Kagawa. His work rate passing and link play along with his attacking instincts would work perfectly in this set up.

So that only leave one position to be filled. The LAM of the three. And this is where the controversy I promised earlier comes in. I think the player we need and the player Moyes could turn to is in our squad already. His name is Tom Cleverley. Bet you didn't see that one coming.

Moyes likes having a right footer on the left who cuts in such as Pienaar, Osman or Mirellas at Everton. Also for these tactics the three need to keep possession and work hard to win it back.

Cleverley has a high work rate, a high pass completion rate and prefers short sharp passes compared to longer passes needed when played deeper in midfield. Cleverley started his career as a left winger, so this position is more accustomed to what he's used to.

Thiago Kagawa and Cleverley behind RvP would enable us to keep the pressure high up the pitch and keep possession easily. The only issue is it may lack penetration. But with players like Valencia, Young, Welbeck and Zaha on the bench we have options if we need to open the game up.

This is how I think Moyes could set the team up next season. Personally i'd like to see another midfielder in come in to rotate Carrick and Strootman with such as Marco Van Ginkel, Sebastian Rode or even Victor Wanyama. They could be seen as Carricks long term replacement.

Personally a great summer for me would be:

Kevin Strootman, Thiago Alcantara, Marco Van Ginkel, Luke Shaw and Wilfried Zaha.

That gives us two for the first team and three for the future. This is a more typical summer. and would allow Moyes to make the tweaks he wants while not totally rebuilding the side.

I know a lot of you won't like Cleverley in that role but I think it could well be where we see him play next season. At least give it some unbiased thought.

30 May 2013 01:07:29
I agree with everything you said exept the Tom Cleverley part. Inverted wingers are supposed to cut in and either unleash a shot or find a hole in the defense and either produce a through ball or dribble their way towards goal.

Lets look at Cleverley with an unbiased point of view. The bou can't dribble. That's a fact. His short passing is good, but his vision/ creativity is mediocre. He would make a decent central midfielder, but a horrible winger. Kagawa, who is considerabbly more skillful and creative than Cleverley, didn't cut it on the wing. Cleverley is a less talented version of Kagawa. I'd rather play welbeck on the wings. at least he has the pace to cause some trouble. Zaha is also an option.

Mick

I agree with you Shappy. I rate Cleverley higher up the field than he has been played this season as holding player with Carrick. He is a naturaly attaxking footballer and unfortunately for him apart from Kagawa there aren't any othe rplayers who can play neat intricade one touch two touch football at a high tempo without slowing down the game.

Cleverley has been played out of position. Last season when he started alongside Anderson he played some fantastic football, something that a lot of people seem to have forgotten. Cleverley has been played out of position this season.

Mad Hatter

Thiago, Kagawa and Cleverley behind RVP won't score nearly enough goals to contend in the big competitions, and this is assuming Rooney leaves which is far from a certainty. Finally, I was supportive of going after Strootman, until I saw him compared to Gareth Barry. I don't want Gareth Barry 2. 0, and if Strootman actually is comparable to Barry in style and quality, he and Carrick would be too much of an anchor on the attack. I only want Carrick to partner another defensive CM if the other four attacker are elite (RVP, Rooney, Kagawa, Bale/Ronaldo) bc as we've seen with Carrick and a defensive CM partner, it provides very little support to the attack and I worry if that's the kind of player Strootman is. We can use a true box-to-box CM, but people describe Barry that way and for me, a player like that does not improve the team in the way we need.

30 May 2013 07:46:00
Mick, the point of having Thiago Kagawa and Cleverley as the three is so they can retain the ball high up the pitch. This will not give us much space to dribble the ball in behind. The full backs would provide that drive. And with Thiago and Cleverley they would pair up with the full backs is such a way that they would hold their position and thread balls through to the advancing full backs. This means if the ball was lost either Thiago or Cleverley would be able to drop across and defend the gap left by the full back. Cleverley is naturally an attacking player who has been hamstrung by having to play deeper, he hasn't got the range of passing to play deeper, nor does he run the ball out of midfield. that's why his talents are better served higher up the pitch where he won't be needed to run the ball further and his clever intricate short passing will be most devestating. Personally I think there are better players and better ways of playing. I'd rather play Zaha there and have that threat of someone who can run at defenders with pace and skill. But that's not how I expect Moyes to play. I expect him to play Cleverley there first then maybe being someone else on later in the game. He is a safety first kind of manager.

KG, for the love of god don't listen to Dick Addvocat, that guy is what his name suggests. He said Barry Ferguson was the new Steven Gerrard. Strootman is a better defensive midfielder than Barry and he offers much more going forward. He got 9 goals and 12 assists last season. He was directly responsible for 21 goals. Barry hasn't managed that in his entire career let alone one season. Would you not want a midfielder who can be a defensive shield and shore up our midfield plus add 15-20 goals to our team?

I'm pretty sure that Kagawa playing behind RVP will be more than enough goals, you've got 40+ there alone. Thiago isn't a goal scorer and Cleverly to me is like a lame duck. I think the LAM + RAM need to be getting 7-12 goals a season, Thiago might scrape that and make up for it with assists but Cleverly certainly wont.

Without getting into your "formation", I stopped taking the post serious when u assume evans will get in ahead of rio, when vidic has been out modt of last season and he's in against rio, ideally it will b both rio and vidic, but to think a new manager coming into the top job isn't going to pick rio is very naibmve,
mick the red fireman. {Ed004's Note - No I don't, moyes likes to play a high lineman neither Rio or Vidic are quick enough}

Strootman gets mentioned a lot because the ed said we are interested.
Moyes nearly always sets up wingers
Jred

30 May 2013 09:46:16
Anon, I agree I don't think goals will be a problem either. We'd have Hernandez, Zaha, Welbeck, Young will bring goals to the team too. Plus I think with Moyes in charge we won't concede many goals, he will have the defense very well organised. So we won't be having to score 4/5 goals a game to out score our opponants.

Mick the red fireman, like the Ed ha said Moyes likes to play a high line as such we will need to play at least one quick centre back or we will have problems with teams playing the ball into the space behind our defenders. I think one of Evans or Smalling will always play with one of Rio or Vidic playing along side them. Rio will be 35 soon and won't play as many games next season as he played last. And we were best defensively when Vidic played.

30 May 2013 12:00:03
Jred, Strootman has also been scouted by Moyes during his time at Everton. So he does seem a likely target.

As for Moyes playing wingers, he has but he tends to prefer multifunctional wingers. Pienaar for expamle will cut in and link well with those around him more like a midfielder, and Mirellas is more of a wide forward than a winger and goes comes in towards goal.

He played Felliani in the no. 10 role due to a lack of options as stated by Felliani himself. Kagawa is the perfect player for that. Thiago could offer be the player who cuts in and plays more central like Pienaar, and possible Zaha could fullfill the Mirellas roll if he wanted to play in a similar way as he has at Everton.

I still don't see a 3 of Zaha, Thiago and Kagawa as threatening as Osaca, Mata and Hazard. I think we need one big name in there to scare opponents like Rooney used to, someone like Bale, Reus, Ronaldo.