Manchester United Banter Archive October 30 2018

30 Oct 2018 20:24:57
No messing with real Madrid if the manager isn't getting the results they show him the door. But if it's Madrid theirs an excuse he wasn't the right man not the right fit at the present moment but if it happens at united we are toxic, if Manchester United was in Spain the fans would be waving the white hankies at Jose months ago.
Cantona said it Sunday Jose is a good manager but not a fit for united.
He said we need creative football, attacking football committed players.
I'm with you Eric.

30 Oct 2018 20:37:39
He's not half the coach Jose is for a start. Their squad is far superior at this moment in time too.

I'd much rather behave the way united do than madrid. Those white hankies are embarrassing and their fans are toxic.

31 Oct 2018 06:27:28
I get your point Leahy but if we want to use Madrid as role models then we are in serious trouble.

31 Oct 2018 08:19:08
Yeah 3 consecutive Champions Leagues as opposed to the dross we see week in week out, definitely need to steer clear of Madrid's model!

Madrid/ Bayern/ PSG/ Chelsea/ City even Everton! All show a ruthlessness we lack. We need to be more decisive when things aren't working and don't look like working.

When SAF moved on we needed to evolve, the fairytale idea of backing managers for years even if not performing has gone - it went 15+ years ago, the idea of having a team full of youth products has gone. Patience has unfortunately gone.

Too much money, too many rich rivals competing for the best talent, too many short-term flippant fans, who will change clubs when things go bad (more so the new breed of fan from overseas, which is more important to the club now due to the numbers) .

We either evolve or die. The game has changed, certain clubs are aware and put little stock in history. The prestige and glory is what attracted the owners to the clubs because it is a leg up and something that guarantees instant financial support, they have no regard for it once they take over though because money talks. Our owners and management are trapped, we are not one thing or another now. Until we become ruthless with players and managers we will continue to drift and throw good money after bad.

31 Oct 2018 08:49:56
Exactly AJH. Who’d want to win that many champions league titles playing such attractive football. Simply nauseous.

31 Oct 2018 11:37:25
Beast - I take your point pal and part of me feels the same but I'm not sure we can afford to operate in this way and I don't think we should lose sight of what made our Club successful over the years.

Madrid are struggling because they lost Ronaldo. They have lost 50 goals per season and not replaced them. He's been the foundation of their success since they snatched him from us almost a decade ago.

Madrid are a Club that traditionally have always spent big and signed the best players. This is their MO but it's expensive and doesn't always necessarily yield immediate results. They have won La Liga 3 times in the last 10 years and before their current run of success they hadn't won the Champions League since 2002. Madrid and Barcelona don't operate on a level playing field in Spain. They don't share their TV revenue and as we all know money talks. Eventually if you sack enough managers and buy enough good players you'll inevitably stumble across the right combination. This style can only be successful if money is no barrier and it can be spent indiscriminately.

Being successful is hard. Barcelona await a similar fate when they lose Messi and despite the riches on offer at PSG and City neither Club are yet to win the Champions League.

The harsh reality has been over the past decade Madrid and Barcelona have had two of the best players in the history of the game. (Had they not had Messi Utd might have won two more European Cups) . They have been able to support and enhance their talent by signing other great players and it's been hard for the rest of Europe to compete. The landscape is changing, Messi and Ronaldo are not immortal, they cannot play forever and other Clubs will soon get their chance.

Madrid will have to re-build like they have done in the past. They will undoubtedly continue to be successful but how many managers will they sack and how much money will they have to spend in the process is anyone's guess.

I think Utd need to adopt a more sensible approach and take heed of what made us so successful in the past. Whilst we are a rich Club we can't afford to spend money indiscriminately. History has taught us we need to invest heavily in our academy and scouting departments. We need to find the right balance between signing and developing young players and investment in the squad. We need to appoint managers that share this approach and philosophy.

Our history is based on two great men. Their success built from blooding youngsters that shared an identity with the Club and supplementing this by signing new players. I don't believe this approach is outdated.

As transfer fees continue to spiral out of control maybe the most successful Clubs of the future will be the ones that can find the right balance between identifying, developing and trusting young talent whilst continuing to sign more established players. I don't think even Madrid can afford to sign the likes of Neymar or Mbappe anymore and even if they could they wouldn't have much left over to address other parts of the squad.

Perhaps Jose biggest barrier to success at Utd has been he doesn't like the City. If he doesn't view us as a long term project then his tenure is destined for failure as he won't be afforded enough money to yield short term success.

Jose has the ambition, pedigree and to some extent the ammunition to build a dynasty at Utd. If he can somehow bend to the Clubs traditions, show more faith and patience in youth, develop a more expansive style of football, learn to love the City, really commit to the Club and develop a longer term strategy we'll be ok. Ok your right this is never going to happen what was I thinking 😂?!

Joking aside I think we already have the blueprint for success. We just need to find the right man with the pedigree, courage and patience to implement it again.

31 Oct 2018 12:51:26
Good post DLIB. We're overhauling both scouting and academy so we look to be going that way. We have a lot of players either soon to out of contract or coming to the end of their career so we need a lot of fresh blood. We can't buy to replace so the academy will have to supply part if not most.

31 Oct 2018 15:46:51
Thanks Mort - For anybody that reads my posts (I accept most are like essays and not worth the effort) I've been highly critical of the Glazers. I have concerns about their ambition and worry they won't invest enough to make the difference between us having a good side and a great one. Putting those concerns aside I can't really complain that money hasn't been invested in the squad. What we haven't done yet is found the right man to spend that money wisely whilst continuing to develop and nurture some of our very talented youngsters.

I look at how we operate as a Club, our tradition, our style and there is only one candidate for the job and that's Potch in my opinion. He plays an aggressive, entertaining style of football and is prepared to develop and nurture younger players. He has also demonstrated a commitment and loyalty to the Clubs he's managed. What he has achieved at Spurs whilst working on a shoestring budget has been fantastic. Like City courted and serenaded Pep I believe we should do the same with Potch.

I've heard people call for Eddie Howe but think it's too soon for a Club of our size. He ticks most of the boxes but we just don't know how he would handle the egos or the immense pressure and expectation that comes with being Utd manager. Maybe he could go to
Spurs and replace Potch once he's appointed the next Utd manager. I hope in time he may grow disillusioned at Spurs and look for a new challenge. As they look to finance their new stadium I don't see them investing in their squad and just keeping their most talented players will be considered a success.

I think all this talk of new managers is a touch premature anyway. I've seen the green shoots of recovery (Juventus aside) in our last few games and I still believe that with some clever investment in January and the summer (if he lasts that long) we're still not that far away.

Conversely I think we've reached a point when we can only judge Jose on a game by game basis. He's certainly had enough time and money to transform us into a top 4 side and we should be able to navigate our way through to the last 8 of the Champions League as a minimum. We should also have a recognised style and settled team by this point into his tenure. At the moment it's not been good enough and we can ill afford any more set backs.

Saturday will provide a useful barometer to judge if the mini recovery is based on solid foundations. It's a game we should ordinarily be expected to win but Bournemouth are in good form and we'll face a tough examination. Nothing less than a win will do however and if we come back with anything less than 3 points the pressure will intensify and the vultures will be circling again.

{Ed002's Note - Manchester United has not suffered from the lack of investment in players.}

31 Oct 2018 18:22:06
DLIB - I think we agree in principle. My point was more to do with the ruthless nature of clubs. We tend to be quite passive, it took an age to act with LVG, we extended Jose's contract at the wrong time and look no better off for it.

Madrid whilst struggling at the moment and domestically against a powerhouse in Barcelona do act with ruthless precision more often than not. Jose would not still be in a job if we were Madrid and we the club would be much better off if we bring in a hungry manager with desire and can mix up big signings and youth.

Who knows what the future holds, I notice a lot more loans of good players because wages are a problem. Recession round the corner and various other issues. Bayern also need to rebuild.

Utd have wasted vast resources under LVG and Jose, we need somebody to come in with a plan, back them fully and if they start to deviate from that plan hold them to account - the fundamental skillset a new manager needs is attacking intent.

I just can't see Jose turning this around, everything is against him. He doesn't have the fear factor, the tactical courage or the charisma he once had, that X factor has gone. We need new ideas, somebody to respect the clubs history and traditions (because other clubs replicate the way we played and do well), we need that swashbucking 'score more than you' approach to games again. I'm just saying that we can't be loyal for loyalties sake anymore because other clubs will take advantage of that weakness.

Any new manager coming in now would have a massive job on their hands, same as at Madrid. BUT Jose is 3 years in now and as a project we have lost 3 years because the job is just as difficult as the one Jose inherited from LVG, probably worse because we have even more players that don't fit on bigger salaries!

Madrid acted after 3 months of messiness, we have had 3 years of the same thing, plus Jose's attitude. A lot of the Madrid players seemed to like Lopetegui, but I think there will be a fair few Utd players popping open the Champers when he is finally relieved of his duties. And a great deal more Utd fans.

31 Oct 2018 19:02:18
Perhaps the club are confident in waiting for the very talented youth as we did in 95, Chong, Greenwood and Gibson plus Gomez? They may or may not make it but alongside Jose is I recall someone in McKenna who knows them.

31 Oct 2018 16:37:55
Ed002 - I never said they had. My suspicion is the Glazers lack the ambition to make the difference between a top 4 side and Champions.

We saw in the summer that the Club rested on its laurels and didn't invest enough to improve on a good second place finish last season. After all we finished a long way behind City, the squad still needed significant improvement and we didn't do anywhere near enough to bridge that gap.

An ambitious board, one that truly valued trophies above profit would have made the investment necessary to give the manager what he needed to challenge. If they'd have got the players Jose wanted and needed my suspicion's would have been unfounded but unfortunately they didn't and my paranoia was compounded.

I have only seen real investment in the squad on the back of failure. My suspicion is once stability is returned the purse strings are tightened.

I accept money has been spent but sometimes timing is an important factor as well!

{Ed002's Note - My comments were based on you saying of the Glazers: "I have concerns about their ambition and worry they won't invest enough to make the difference between us having a good side and a great one". They are nrespondingf to requests for the money and you like so many otehrs are advocating them as soft targets. They are not - they have authorised vast amounts of spending much of which has been wasted because the fundamentals are wrong. Don't blame them based on your lack of understanding of the business.}

31 Oct 2018 19:45:50
I can't argue with any of that Beast like I said part of my wholeheartedly agrees with what you say!

Whilst I failed to say in my original post was I respect Madrid's pursuit of excellence and there is no doubt in my mind that every part of the Club is committed and determined to be the very best. I'm just not sure we should follow their methods but I do agree we have a propensity for procrastination which sometimes provides a safe-heaven for mediocrity.

31 Oct 2018 21:43:51
Ed002 - If the fundamentals are wrong who's fault is that? If they are responding to requests for money it fell on deaf ears over the summer and if money has been wasted then as the owners of the Club they have to take their fair share of the responsibility for that as well.

I am not arguing that money hasn't been invested in the squad or that much of that money has been wasted; Nevertheless you don't have to be a genius to
understand that further investment was needed if we were serious about competing for the top trophies and wanted to be the best.

The last time I checked we had the biggest turnover in World football yet despite finishing 19 points behind City last season Liverpool, Chelsea, Fulham, Wolves, West Ham, Everton and Leicester all invested more in their squad than we did over the Summer window. That simply cannot happen for team with ambitions to win the league. Yes they have spent money but so has everybody else and I can't understand why we didn't push harder in the summer. I heard the immortal words return "no value in the market" yet no such words were spoken as the Club were panicked into spending vast amounts when we finished outside the top 4. Surely this was the summer to back the manager having won two major trophies the previous season and securing a second place finish and an FA Cup final the season after. Call me a cynic, throw insults in my direction that I don't understand the business if that helps but I've haven't had a reasonable explanation as to why we didn't invest more in a squad that so badly needed strengthening if they had serious aspirations of bringing the title back to Old Trafford?

We generate the most money in world football, the Glazers bought the Club on the back of a leveraged buy out burdening any risk on the Club not themselves, they have saddled us with back breaking debt. Our turnover is significantly higher than the likes of Fulham, Wolves, Leicester, Everton and West Ham and substantially higher than Liverpool and Chelsea, I think we can expect our Club to be more ambitious than most of those teams and to fully back the manager.

My post was more a question of ambition and how determined and serious our Club are about being the very best. Real Madrid don't mess about, they don't accept mediocrity, they act decisively and whilst I don't advocate going to those lengths I think myself and others are entitled to question the ambition of our board. If the fundamentals are wrong it's incumbent on them to put them right. We've been waiting over 6 years for them to do this yet whilst turnover increases results on the pitch don't mirror our success off it.

I'll wager you a side bet that if the Club finishes outside the top 4 we'll see significant spending in the summer which beggars the question why they didn't back our manager in the last window. I suppose there was no value in the market but that doesn't seem to matter when your chasing the top 4 just the title it would seem. Your right about one thing there is something fundamentally wrong with our Club but who's fault is that?!

I accept you think I talk nonsense, have little understanding of football and probably think I'm a cynical, paranoid, idiot but I love my Club and want to see them be successful again. Posting on this site provides me with a cathartic release. Not many people share my enthusiasm for Utd and people can choose to read or ignore my posts as they deem fit. Anyway thank you for taking the time to reply, goodnight.

{Ed002's Note - I don't think you understand how the club or business are run at all. You certainly don't understand the role of the owners and I have no interest in gambling with you.}

01 Nov 2018 19:35:12
..................abuse removed................and both users - great job....................

30 Oct 2018 07:29:01
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new article entitled, Review Of The Day 30th October 2018