Manchester United Banter Archive December 04 2013

 

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04 Dec 2013 23:48:03
There will be no silver bullet in January. Top cup-tied players aren't going to leave top European clubs in mid season. So essentially we will be struggling through with what we've got plus maybe some mid-range reinforcements. It's hard to see us finishing in the top four. City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Everton are all better than us at the moment and there's no reason to think it will change. We have neither the tactics nor the creative midfield talent to make it otherwise.

Everyone on this site has been fully aware of the growing deficiencies in midfield over the last few years. It strains credulity to believe that neither SAF nor Moyes were aware of them too, and yet nothing was done to rectify the problem. Why?

a) Incompetence
b) Hubris
c) The Glazers
d) The debt
e) Ed Woodward
f) Moyes
g) SAF
h) A refusal to accept the role of agents
i) A combination of the above

Take comfort in the idea that mediocrity is the ultimate test of the true supporter.

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{Ed004's Note - Next time sign in or I will have to delete the post unfortunately}

Easy to see why. Every time it comes down to c and d and a little to do with Fergie being stubborn i.e Pogba.

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04 Dec 2013 23:33:47
Disagree with anyone who says that Moyes inherited a poor or mid table team. He inherited a title winning team with the know how to win matches / titles He also had some very promising youngsters coming through the ranks. This team needed a couple of purchases to strengthen and challenge once again for the title. Without those purchases the squad is still good enough to be in the top 4 and should have been since the 5th game of the season.
My question is - is Moyes a mid table manager or is the current squad a mid table team?

Acker

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Long Rant

It was not long ago where Chelsea went from winning the league to struggling to make 4th place because of an aging team that needed retooling.

Our summer transfer activity has proven to be a poison pill. City did the same mistake the summer before after winning the league, where they failed to buy early and panicked and bought late lot's of players.

This summer will be quite stressful as traditionally a lot of the transfers happen after the world cup and with so many big teams looking to buy, it is a players market given the money that is around. Not expecting much in Jan to be honest as very few top players will move and mostly not available.

People are blaming Moyes for Fellaini but Chelsea bought Willian and how many games has he played.
How many games has Lamella played. How many games has Jovetic played. How many games is Moura or pastor currently getting at PSG and the list goes on and on.

By most people's opinion Ancelloti and Morinho are top coaches and they have made their fair share of buys that has not panned out as expected.

Sometimes it takes players longer to settle in and sometimes they just never pan out. Fergie bought Anderson for 24 million 6 years ago, which is 40 to 45 million in todays market and look at how he has panned out. We have not bought a midfielder in 6 years until Fellaini and lost Scholes, Hargreaves, park and Fellaini so what do you expect.

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Good post God Created United, l think we need to more positive same people were crying year ago that SAF is old he cannt read the game now he can win everything with our team guys let's be serious and be real let's get behind our team and support it.
Susu

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I think the truth is somewhere inbetween.

Moyes hasn't shown in his time so far with Manchester United nor in his time at Everton that he has the capability to be a top level manager. His tactics are a throw back to English & Scottish football of 10-20 years ago.

There are a number of younger managers across the European Leagues who are implementing a better style of football which is exciting to watch and produces results.

Yes I fully agree that the current team isn't great. The factors for last year's title was City imploding, the annual managerial change at Chelsea and Sir Alex.

IMO Sir Alex's greatest strength was his man management and his motivation. He was never the master at tactics.

Unfortunately Moyes is proving he is average at motivating players and average at tactics. We really need a student of the modern game in charge of the club. Look at Klopp at Dortmund, Guardiola at Bayern and Barca, Simeone at Aletico. Even the likes of Laudrup, Martinez, Pottecino are proving that you can create exciting, winning teams without a billion pound chequebook.

All in all Moyes has had 20-30 games and isn't up to the task. Similar to Roy Hodgson and Kenny Dalglish at Liverpool, we need to act and appoint the right type of manager.

Apologies for the length of this post

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ADZ

Guardiola inherited a rolls royce at Bayern and he did not exactly have the toughest job at barca in a league that is generally a 2 team race. Must be nice when you start the year and you know you only have to worry about one team and CL football guaranteed.

All the managers you are talking about have been able to bring in players and influence the makeup of their team. Our manager joined in July and has not had the opportunity to change much and one signing is nowhere near enough.

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04 Dec 2013 23:33:00
Havent posted for ages, but seriously is this the poorest defense of a title ever? We looked really lackluster tonight, ran out of ideas far too quickly. It seems our season is one step forward, 3 back and unfortunately the end of our unbeaten run. Rooney wasnt firing tonight either, but no one else steps up and takes some responsibility. It's all good and well saying we need to buy him and there, but at this rate, who is going to want to play for us? Especially if we don't finish in the top four. Fair too say this reasons is a write off and let's just hope that we majorly reinvest this summer.

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No man city won the title in 1937 and were relegated the following season! Its bad but not that bad just yet.

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04 Dec 2013 23:24:06
Does anyone else feel if we are going to stick with moyes we need a complete overhaul not because we lack quality but this group of players will always be fergies boys and he needs player with hunger to prove they can be world class. New manager, new team together trying to prove they can be the best is that not what Manchester United has always been about hunger! Wonder who people think would be good additions bar the annual sneijder rumours please!

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04 Dec 2013 23:04:18
Why doesn't moyes get angry he seems to have no backbone if we lose games we should be winning he just goes on about luck. He should be saying that wasn't good enough and players aren't doing enough instead. He doesn't have the fire fergie had and the aggression and that is what's missing this season

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I was just about to say this further up the page. I think the main thing we've lost since SAF is the fear the players had of losing games. Moyes really needs to start getting more vocal and angry when we're not doing well, I think he's being a bit soft on the players.

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04 Dec 2013 22:47:22
Listen guys, you's have not got a bad team, you's just need a player or two. Give us 25 million for Baines, we'll be fine, we have a good replacement in Oviado, ever heard of him?

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We will still finish ahead of you mate and hope we don't go for Baines and you can keep him. 15 million yes but not 25, no thanks.

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04 Dec 2013 22:27:54
As a team that won the league last year, our aim this season should have been top three imo, regardless of the change in manager. Right now I would be shocked if we managed to finish top three, therefore the aim has to be reevaluated to finishing in the top four, strengthen in the summer and then almost start afresh.

So here's a question. If Manchester United fail to finish in the top four, should Moyes be given a second season in charge?

For me it would have to be a no.

Opinions please.

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{Ed004's Note - No}

Yes
He needs 2years don't listen to what people say he hasn't taken over a great team.
We won the league last year due to Fergy and the fact city and co had a poor season.
We are a good team but not a great team and moyes needs to be given a chance to improve it .
Our midfield is awful for a top team and there are serious questions about the back 4 . Moyes inherited these problems .

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I want to give any manager time even though I didn't agree with Moyes appointment ( did anyone? ). However the stark financial reality is we HAVE TO finish Top 4 each season. Harsh but I think no Top 4 means no Moyes.

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Completely agree with Jred.

It was not too long ago people said Wenger needs to go. Now he is sitting on top of the league and has a fortress of a defense with the addition of 3 to 4 high quality players. Their young players have progressed into really good player where our young guys like Welbeck and Cleverly have actually regressed if you ask me.

It will take the manager 2 to 3 years to retool this team if he is given the funds.

We lost tonight because too many players are very average and then opposition is good team and a tough game for anyone.

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If we are honest the weaknesses in our time were disguised last season by other top clubs also having poor years. SAF knew how weak our midfield was and that resulted in Scholes being asked to come out of retirement and our persistence with an ageing Giggs.
We've often managed to develop our own talent and supplement it with a few big buys. Unfortunately, that doesn't always work and over the next 18 months we probably need to spend. £100m plus otherwise our decline will continue.

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04 Dec 2013 22:25:23
Our Disgraceful midfield is really starting to show its true colours.We have the worst midfield of the top 10 teams. I pity Moyes as he has inherited pure crap and is going to struggle until he buys good players.
Im disgusted to see a Utd team so easy to take points from, Januzaj, Kagawa and Carrick should be kept and sell the rest.
Its always going to be a hard task taking over at Utd but playing like a mid table team holding on for points is unacceptable.At times its like we are waiting for defences to slip up rather than forcing them to make mistakes and attacking in the way we know.We are playing David Moyes football not Manchester United football. I am forcing myself to believe that we will come good and go on a dominating run soon as we generally do around Christmas but in my gut I dunno if we have it in us with this midfield.I just hope the attraction of Champions League football can bag us a few big names in January as playing like this and possibly no Champions League next season puts us in a spot of bother.Dear Santa please bring us a midfield for Christmas! Did anyone see the look on Fergies face I'd love to be a fly on the wall around Old Trafford. I hope there's hairdryers flying everywhere.

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04 Dec 2013 22:21:38
This is a question for anybody:
With Moyes saying we can come back and win the league, without blind hope! What positives, changes in tactics or personnel can we take from our current form?
The players say, they are taking on board the changes but does anybody see any evidence of this?
I'm not part of the Moyes out brigade, but right now the team needs us! But us as fan's cannot make the team fight, right now as a team we lack energy, goals, confidence, spirit or is there rumblings that all is not well within the squad? We can as we always do get behind them even if right now it's bewildering!
Ask yourselves if your Marco reus, gundogan, Herrera etc would you come to United? Yes we are a great club but we need players who understand and can cope with the expectations
I expect the situation to get worse before it begins to get better, Moyes is being consumed by the job he has to given the time and funds to impose his philosophy on the team. He has to be ruthless, he hasn't got a infinite amount of time, Anderson, Nani, etc have to go they are good players but they aren't producing when it matters! If he gave the youth a chance like he has with januzai we'd give him grace!
Arrgh it's just so disappointing!
Where are the green shoots

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04 Dec 2013 22:21:21
Glad to say I didn't get to watch the match.

I would like to believe we will sign someone meaningful in January but it's simply not realistic. No club nor player still in the Champions League is going to endorse a move. The player would cup tie themselves and the club would reduce their chances of progressing. So forget Gundogan and Reus etc- it's all wishful thinking.

I'd also like to believe we could finish in the top 4, but that's also looking increasingly unlikely. Let's face it SAF left Moyes a poison pill, and by failing to concentrate on achievable acquisitions (i.e. not Ronaldo and Fabregas) during the summer, finally settling for the last gasp purchase of Fellaini, Moyes washed it down with bleach.

Everyone on this site knew what we needed, but for whatever reason it didn't happen. Since the manager and Board must surely have known the same thing, one has to believe it's probably as a result of a combination of excess frugality or incompetence. Moyes himself has alluded to the fact that United are 4-6 top class players short of what a top team needs. That's a 200m pound fix - which is a cheap investment compared to an extended period out of Europe.

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04 Dec 2013 22:19:49
The season is taking shape and the top three are now as I expected them to be this season although not yet in the order I expect it to finish as I felt from the moment Moyes was appointed (and still feel) that City are the class act, having properly invested in their team, unlike us. Still it has to be said Moyes is only getting 90% out of a team that were Champions which must raise major questions. Perhaps the team just don't believe what he is preaching and how long before he loses the dressing room, if he hasn't lost it already.

The Glazers must now be getting nervous and I think even the optimists should be able to concede the league has gone and in fact we are only playing for fourth now. I am not even convinced we can get fourth and if we don't that would be a disaster. I remember a Manchester Evening News headline in the seventies when the percentage football Dave Sexton served up was both unsuccessful and dull, it was not the Manchester United style, the headline was "Cold Trafford". Moyes has brought that coldness back with percentage football so as well as failure the style isn't there.

The Glazers have some serious decisions because this role is too big for Moyes as many suspected and yet they should have known that from his CV. We have been led into the 1990 Liverpool situation and the fall from being Champions to now is bigger than even I thought. For those who say stick with Moyes I wonder how much pressure is now on Saturdays game and what happens if we don't win? It is getting to be the scenario I feared with pressure building, fast. Having seen the Fellaini mistake do we trust Moyes with our cash in January? Moyes is the risk we didn't need to take and we have been rewarded with 9th place.

Regardless of what the owners do all you can say is what a mess and the other teams supporters can't stop laughing, it is a totally unacceptable situation. Finally for those who know their history, two words, Wilf McGuiness, and don't say it wasn't highlighted.

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Spot on Red Man. Perfect post.

I want to get behind Moyes but, seriously, did ANYONE have him in their Top 5 potential SAF replacements?

I appreciate with 3 pts for a win and a good run etc we can get much closer but don't see it happening in the league. Bizarrely the counter attacking set up we showed at Leverkeusen could pay dividends in Europe but surely we'd get rip to shreds by Bayern, Barca, Real etc.

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Yep, we just can't stop laughing!

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04 Dec 2013 22:01:20
I am so angry. Kagawa should have stayed on and brought Hernandez on. Was Rafael injured? Just so poor. We need at least 5 players. Two centre MIDs, a left back a right back and a central defender.

This is not an exagerration. We are Manchester united.

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04 Dec 2013 22:06:50
A bit of perspective - I've supported United for 43. Yrs and I can tell you it has been worse than this!
We have been storing up a problem in midfield for a few years and paying the price now.
The rest of the squad is good enough to win trophies.
I am not counting on January solving our problems but hope it will.
We have been spoiled over the last 22 yrs or so.
I'm keeping the faith for a while longer

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Amen Jacko.

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04 Dec 2013 21:57:04
I think only the truly blind really thought we would win the prem this season but it is starting to become a worry that we won't make top four, I never wanted moyes from the start, just can't see what sort of team he wants us to be, what direction are we going in, wheras martinez and pellagrini have stamped their ideas and philosophy onto their respective teams, or is this moyes putting his stamp on our team, this isn't wise after the fact I just never could understand what moyes had done to warrant being given the best job in football, just hope he can turn this around quick.

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Relax pal, Arsenal will drop points, they're not tittle contenders. We'll finish eith 21 pta ahead of Liverpool. Man City and Chelsea are average, Spurs are overrated. We will win the league.

Moyes is a master mind tactitian and from Newcastle game we're going to hit a great form and win the league.

Wow now I knw how it feels to be in the positive patrol.

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No argument there, never thought we would win the league but also hard to believe how badly we are struggling. There will be no excuses come the next few transfer windows if we don't buy 3 top players and ship a few out.

We had chances tonight and would have been a different story if we had scored first but far and few players who are a goal threat and and goals from midfielders is our achilles heel.

Not going to slag the manager though. Plating similar to what we did last year the difference being we were scoring.

Too many of the players are passengers on big wages and hard to move on.

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04 Dec 2013 21:55:58
That was dreadful.
Nani, wellbeck. Cleverly, evra, Rio, smalling, Anderson, all need to be shipped out and giggs to retire.

That was awful. 27.5 million for fellaini?! The guy is so lazy. Second to the ball so often.

Januzaj may be young but he should just start as many games as possible. Did Rooney no harm!

Missing Carrick big time.

I don't think January will save us. And depending what happens between now and then I'm not sure moyes is the man for the job. We will see.
Worst united team in decades.

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I thought fellaini was good in the first half and just looked knackered and no legs in the last 20 minutes.

Smalling had a good game and did his job.

Can't stand Welbeck and think he is just rubbish so no arguments there.

Our wingers produce Zilch and need a complete overhaul.

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04 Dec 2013 21:55:45
Excellent, mid-table mediocrity awaits us for this season. Must be one of the most underwhelming title defences we've seen for a while.

Can't believe that a club as big as ours did not have the insight to see that hiring a manager who has won the square root of zero would not bring us continuity. We have no God given right to expect success but neither do we expect as Champions to be so poor and aimless.

I truly hope I'll come to eat my words at the end of the season so am banking on the fact that United and Moyes' previous tend to do well in the latter half of the season.

Ed's how much of a problem would it be financially for the club if we didn't qualify for the Champions League?

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I've read somewhere that if we miss out on champions league football for more than one season then we could be in serious trouble with the debt we have.

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The Mac

Not true at all. The impact will be on our budgets to buy in the transfer market just like any other team and attracting players to a certain extent. Having said that PSG a few years ago and Monaco this past summer did just fine even when they had no CL place.

I always thought we would be fighting it out for 3rd or 4th place with Spurs and Arsenal. Let's see where we are in 6 weeks time.

The most surprising thing is Arsenal going from a team that was leaking goals last year all the time to keeping clean sheets now.

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04 Dec 2013 21:47:28
Cant believe it. It seems like Moyes has got some sort of obsession with Cleverly and Welbeck. No matter what, one of them plays and performs pathetic and still he sticks with them. I know a lot of people in here will say we can't still win the league but for me there is a difference between "Mathematical chance" and "Realistic Chance". Priority for this season in the league should be Top 4. Simple as that!

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04 Dec 2013 21:47:14
For 16 years I've supported united and all I can say this season has been nothing short of a disgrace so far. I know many will say I never experienced the bad days, but in the last 20 years we have all come to expect success. Sir Alex won the league with this squad and David moyes has us 12 points of top? I'm sorry I've tried to support him and I do hope he proves me wrong, but he's not the right man never thought it.

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He inherited a team that, despite winning the league, was past its best and in desperate need of change. He won't manage that in less than two years and is a prisoner of the team he inherited. I think he's probably a very good manager but why he bought Fellaini is beyond me. Failing to qualify for the Champions League would be disastrous, not just financially but because that would make it much harder to buy the very best players that we need.

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04 Dec 2013 21:45:28
Klopp anyone?

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Kkopp should've been first choice!

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04 Dec 2013 21:45:02
It can't carry on like this, surely moyes has to be sacked soon before we get dragged down any further. The way its going we won't make it into the europa league.

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04 Dec 2013 21:44:49
Valencia is not a rb and was caught ball watching for the goal it was his job to mark Oviedo. I can understand Moyes bringing on Nani and Januzaj but not by taking Rafael off unless he was injured. It's been some time since I've vented my frustrations on here. In all for giving Moyes time but he needs to play players in their correct position. It's time we bought the right players to play 4231 or even 4312. We just looked slow to move the ball at times. It was a good performance but ultimately we couldn't get into top gear and when teams play at a high tempo we get caught out defensively. Onwards and forwards united we stand. Fingers crossed Santa brings Moyes in a few players ;)

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We need 2 to 3 midfielders. There seems to be such a gap between the defenders and midfielders and forwards and no one who will take responsibly to to take the ball forward, It works if your wingers are really good unfortunately our are firing blanks at the moment.

I hope people realize how important carrick is to the team as neither Fellaini or cleverly command much in the middle of the pitch or create anything.

I am not making excuses for us but having jones out through suspension for a game like this probably made a big difference.

No we have Newcastle and no Rooney and No RVP by the looks of it. God help us if we are hanging our hat on Welbeck scoring, more a one time rare accident if it happens.

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04 Dec 2013 21:43:29
Suarez is an ugly human being but as a player, OMG he's a beast.

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04 Dec 2013 21:43:00
Finally moyes gets to see everton win at OT

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04 Dec 2013 21:42:07
Daren't even watch the highlights. All we seem to be doing is grinding out 1-0 wins in the league and playing incredibly defensive. I'm sure Everton deserved their win but what is going on? :(

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04 Dec 2013 21:42:03
We really need to sack this fool ASAP.

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04 Dec 2013 21:40:29
Getting beyond the joke now this. A title winning squad last season to this

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This person needs to go we didn't get the right man we should Martinez or laudrup someone who can get us playing still continues to play players who shouldn't be there, come the new year we could be in trouble, look at the points and how far we are from top this is a disgrace.

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Keep the faith the preacher gds2 will reassure everyone that everything is all going to plan and we will be challenging at Christmas or was it January . top 4 finish now very doubtful

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Bore,

Why do you only post when we lose?

Thought tonight was a joke, we had the chances to win it but didn't take them and we were punished. It happens but unfortunately it's happening way too often. For the first time tonight I thought it might be best to get rid of moyes and start a fresh but it's not going to happen so have to continue to get behind him and hope we buy a top midfielder and left back in January.

We need rvp and carrick back very quickly as well, totally different side without them.

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04 Dec 2013 21:38:40
Really, David Moyes must be an person or his coaching staff are liars? I watched the game against Spurs and Valencia had so many chances on the right wing, but had a very low ratio of getting the ball past the defender! So what does Moyes do? He plays him again! Clear that when Janujaz comes on he is so much more effective! Giggs is past it dudes, no more time for sentiment! Sub on Nani, what a joke! Did your daughter not rate Zaha in bed? Team is on the back foot and Failanni is shocking! Top four is a realistic target for the champions? Moyes hang your head in shame!

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04 Dec 2013 21:37:06
Can any of the positivity patrol tell me when they think we'll start rocketing up the table?

Outplayed at home by Everton. And you're still going to defend Moyes, the tactical mastermind who takes off Kagawa so that Danny Welbeck, a striker so afraid of shooting that it must be a phobia, can play up front. We didn't even look particularly bothered about equalising at the end.

But everything is okay at the club, we're about to turn a corner and you'll all see that in a few weeks we'll be right up there. How soon before you start saying next season will be our season?

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I said before so many times that People called me a fool, the worst fan ever and bla bla bla. Moyes is not United standard, not now and won't be next season. The worst mistake we made was to hire him. He's useless. Shame on SAF for his choice, shame on us fans for being so arrogant to trying to hide the horrendous season we're about to have and a BIG shame on Glazers for everything.

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Danny
Come on we may be 12 points behind arsenal but there not title contenders so it's ok.
We won the league last year everything will be fine

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Just got back from the game what an absolute disgrace, fellaini isn't fit to wear a utd shirt and i'm sorry but local boy or not danny isn't good enough.he got 80 minutes and contributed nothing rooney was supposed to be our striker but had to drop deep and play right across the line because we were that poor.im sorry but moyes is well out of his depth I drove from manchester to surrey yesterday for a meeting stayed overnight and drove back today for the game when I could of stayed there for a meeting tommorow I've now got to drive back to surrey in the morning I wish I had stayed there lol

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04 Dec 2013 21:35:08
Well to start with the nightmare continues!
The goal was coming, again we won't score tonight if we play while midnight!
Whatever it is, something's just not right!
Fellani looks like the most expensive wig ever!
Moyes looks war weary, we are in a mid table dog fight!
Moyes is the manager and therefore he is responsible for this, whether the players don't trust him, he does get 100% from them, tactics, training and formations!
Glazers are to blame for appointing him and lack of funds!
But something is just not right at United

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04 Dec 2013 21:35:06
Well! In Moyes we trust. Thanks DM you're really the man dor the job! Thanks To SAF for his wisdom. Thanks to the Glazers for enjoying the good life at Old Trafford.


UEFA is still possible. And yes I'm pessimist and u don't need to remind me.

Finally DM is a BS and I hope he goes next season!

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04 Dec 2013 21:34:36
Our performances simply aren't good enough lately, moyes is a lost man.

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04 Dec 2013 21:30:44
Moyes out he's out of his league. Plays giggs and fellani in midfield a joke. Question eds is kagawa all that they say he is. Champions league not for us next season best we can hope is for Europa league.

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04 Dec 2013 21:29:53
Typical throw on Hernandez and hope for the best, so predictable with substitutions! Archaic football

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04 Dec 2013 21:11:48
How does Welbeck get ahead of Hernandez let alone play for united?
What does he offer? can't run with the ball, can't shoot or pass!
Terrible player

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The players cannot complain as we have had plenty of chances to score. We are suffering this season as we are not scoring the chances we make.

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Hi syd. Hows it going?

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Syd, we are creating far less chances than what we did in previous seasons.

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Sydney

For Gods sake we were outplayed by Everton at home. No excuses, we hit the bar, yes, what else? How many chances the had? Please give me a break. We're poor as s***£t with a s****t manager and s****t owners. We will fight for Europa with luck.

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Syd
There are only 4 teams in the league that have scored more goals than united.
There are only 7 teams that have conceded more .

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04 Dec 2013 20:38:09
Martin Atkinson is having a mare of a night. Unbelievable that he has not booked a couple of Everton players.

Lukaku is a handful and hope we get Janusaj on for Welbeck. You all know what I think of Welbeck:)

We are too narrow on the left side unless Evra darts up field and everything from Everton is coming down our left side. Fellaini very good so far.

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04 Dec 2013 16:48:24
Anyone else heard about rumours of RvP being very unhappy with Moyes and wanting out in January or the summer?

Apparently SAF told him he'd still be in charge for another 3 years and also he think's that Moyes is not good enough to take over? Very worrying if true.

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{Ed002's Note - Twitter I guess.}

That's what I assumed. Someone just making the most of RvP initially being unhappy with the new training methods.

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The only place I've seen this mentioned was twitter and guess what, I didn't believe it.

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I know luis van gaal, and he has mentioned that rvp is not entirely happy with the new regime. Whether he's looking to leave is anyone's guess.

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If it is any consolation since people like to criticize the manager's fitness regiment and then make up stories about RVP being unhappy. Spoke at Length with Gary Palister and he rates Moyes very highly and thinks he has been left with a lot of stuff to clean up.

Thinks the club is going through a natural transition and rates Moyes and his fitness training much more than what supposedly we used to do and went as far as saying quite a few players over the years would themselves complain about the training not being hard enough.

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Shahram. I don't think luis van gaal, the Holland manager, is making stories up. I think moyes regime is hard and it doesn't suit everyone.
I am not for or against it, i'm sure he knows what he's doing on that front.

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The players may have complained that training was not intensive enough, yet Fergie still managed to be the most successful manager of this generation. His teams always peaked in the spring in time for the run in. Some might say he knew what he was doing. And let's just take a look at Van Persies injury record with Fergie in charge and now with Moyes in charge.

Only time will tell if Moyes methods are the right ones and we will only know if RVP is unhappy if he comes out and says it. Until then it is just media hype.

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Well what a disaster of a result. I guess you were right, did not see it coming and lost a boat load on us. I think we need RVP back asap. Welbeck has zero exposure for a attacking player and we should have left him at Sunderland.

I should have stayed away from watching the games it saved me the aggregation.

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And all this supposed fitness and we keep conceding late goals. So what has the over training achieved?

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Nomid

It has nothing to do with over training. I think you have a short memory as last year teams laid siege to our goal for the last 20 minutes in many games.

Our midfielders are either technically good but old legs or young and technically very average. It is something that has festered for a long time.

We did btw play 4231 today but there seems to be very little coming from the wingers and the fullbacks are the guys who have to do a job offensively and tend to get caught out defensively because they are so far up the pitch.

I think I am correct by saying we have zero goals from our entire group of midfielders i.e. Cleverly, Carrick, Fellaini, Anderson, kagawa, Giggs, Jones in the league this year. I am not into stats but it must be the worst return in terms of goals in the league for any team.

Not sure how many goals from our wingers either with the exception of Janusaj. No team can win consistently if there is this sort of production from these positions.

I don't see any thing that different in our style of play from previous 2 to 3 years with the difference being that too many players have gone completely off the boil and contributing very little.

we are a slow team overall when it comes to pace.

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04 Dec 2013 15:18:53
Its obvious that we need a CB a LB a CM and winger(flexible creative wide player capable of playing anywhere in the final third).

The problem is that we are unlikely to spend 25m on each position, so there will be a compromise as to the players we are going to get. So a certain amount of priority needs to be put on certain positions and that means more money spent on those positions, that mean there will be less money to spend on the others.

Now historically we haven't normally spent high on defenders with the exception of Rio Ferdinand. So with that in mind I can see us spend less on defenders and more on the midfielders/attacking players. So I would rule out a 20m bid for Baines or Subotic and would expect us to move for cheaper options.

I could see us going for Bruno Martins Indi at CB, he is a player Moyes has looked at before. And is very talented and considered the next Jaap Stam by many in Holland. He would be available for much less than 20m probably around the 8-10m mark.

Like wise I don't see us spending much on LB either. If we were to spend 20m on Baines then he would cost more than all our other LB in our history added together. Personally I like Ricardo Rodriguez who is a fantastic prospect, but there are also rumours of us looking at Ghoulam from Saint Ettenne.
either of these two would leave us with a healthy amount of money left to sign a midfielder and winger.

Now we need to sign a world class midfielder any one of Gundogan, Koke, Pjanic, Witsel or Herrera would hugely improve our midfield and move us upto the next level. Personally my favourite is Gundogan.

The winger option for me though is the most intresting as it will tell us about how Moyes sees the future of our club in an attacking sense. It'll tell us about how he's Januzaj immediate future and it'll tell us about the clubs ambition.

Now Reus is the obvious choice, but if Gundogan departs Dortmund this coming summer then they will not want to lose Reus too which will make it very hard to get him. But if the club is ambitious enough then i'm sure Dortmund could be persuded to sell.

If Reus is out of reach the Konoplyanka is the next best option for a similar type player. He shouldn't cost too much and would work great on the left giving Januzaj more chance to play in his favoured right hand side.

Remy Cabella has also been looked at, but Cabella brings a different option. He prefers to play more central and can even play deeper. But if he does play wide then he prefers to play on the right which would push Januzaj over to the left more.

Griezmann is another option, but being left footed like Januzaj would possibly make us a little unbalanced in attack especially with RvP.

Di Maria and Pedro seem like the final two options. Di Maria for me is too inconsisitant and is a left footed Nani, and the amount of money Real want for him he just doesn't justify that kind of spend. Pedro though is a super talented player and one who would bring us more goals with his eye for goal. But I do question whether Barca will really sell and whether he really wants to leave. I can also see Bayern coming in for him if he really does look to leave Barca.

Personally I like Konoplyanka or possibly Cabella could be an interesting option. I would go for Reus but I truly believe he doesn't want to leave Dortmund so it would be pointless and time wasting chasing him.

I'd consider a summer of Martins Indi, Rodriguez, Gundogan and either Konoplyanka or Cabella a good summer, add to Powell and Januzaj getting more game time then I could look forward to next season with alittle more ease than I did this season.

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Decent analysis as always Shappy but I think you underestimate our shortcomings in midfield.

IMO we need at least two of the central midfielders you listed and possibly three. This way we can just clear out all the crap we currently have wasting squad positions in that position. This includes Fellaini who I thought was a poor purchase in the first place.

Carricks been great for us but he's 32 and I do think he slows the play down so I wouldn't be too concerned if we replaced him with someone equally as decent.

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04 Dec 2013 17:25:21
Carrick has been given a two year deal, Fellaini will not be sold so soon after signing him, there is talk Giggs will be given another year. Then there is Powell who will be ready to play a few games next year. Anderson is the only midfielder who will imo definately leave, some will want to see the back of Cleverley but I don't see him leaving anytime soon. So we will have five midfielders before we sign anyone else. I think we will look to play whoever we sign with Fellaini as you'd have to think Fellaini is in Moyes long term plans. That will leave Carrick, Cleverley, Giggs and Powell to rotate and maybe even Jones playing the odd game in midfield. I think that will be enough.

I'd like to see two midfielders come in with Giggs retiring. But I don't think that likely.

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Shappy

Nice post. I think the biggest no brainer in terms of the transfer market is Matuidi from PSG who's contract is up this summer. He is their best midfielder and reminds me of Roy Keane without the crazy temper. We should push the boat out and get him in january.

LB I prefer Moreno from Sevilla and think he potentially will be a top 5 lb in the next year or 2 and so still so young.

I spent some time with a few personalities from the football world recently who were in Dubai during the international break and a couple of very well known PL managers who were out here rate shaw as best left back in the country bar none, which was quite interesting to hear.

In the Summer get Someone off a Gundogan Calibre and a left winger. I personally like Di Maria or Munian best and think both are top player.

I won't complain if we got Koke and Herrera either although he is not worth 30 million and can't blame the club for having passed on the transfer.

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04 Dec 2013 12:49:01
Think we will win comfortably tonight!

Rooney, kagawa to score us to win 2-0

You lot can be negative but i'm staying positive

Can I just say i'm top of our fantasy football rumors super league

Have fun people

united united united

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BigV, a"comfortable win"?! I will be delighted if that happened, but will remind you later when the "comfortable win" does not materialize!

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Big, MU have been struggling to get the two goal cushion this season. I think we will see Giggs in midfield tonight. Giggs, Kagawa & Fellaini with Valencia, Rooney & Nani as the front three. We need to keep looking for that two-goal cushion, if we look to hold onto a one-goal lead then it may backfire again.

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Don't usually do predictions, but I was thinking along those lines too, Big V.

Probably scudded us now.

NM, I take it that works both ways, and you will be available for a slagging, should we win?

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I think we can all rest assured if we do win tonight it won't be because we played well, but because Everton played bad!

God damn u BIG V stop with all this positivity!

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I agree I think will win 2-0 and I think Fellini will have good game tonight I'm going for Rooney and Fellini to score

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3-1 or 3-2 I reckon. we will definitely concede goal but unlike the pessimist, I actually think we are coming into some form and might see us winning some games quite easy. Injuries have not helped but hopefully we will get rafael and RVP back soon.

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Stevie, of course I will. Feel free to slag away. I'll be delighted, as it would mean United had won!
But seriously, anyone who thinks this game will be a comfortable win has not been watching our team or everton this season!

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I wasn't far off, Welbeck is starting ahead of Nani on the left. For some reason I thought Welbeck was injured.

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04 Dec 2013 12:19:57
It may seem an obvious thing to say, but the results of our next 6 matches will be crucial to our season. All very winnable and I think we need to win them. Hope its a good game for you all tonight, can't get down, I'll just have to enjoy it at the pub.

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04 Dec 2013 12:11:07
Regarding Arsenal. I think they are for real this season. People say they have no depth and that's true in certain positions, but in midfield they not only have depth but it is accompanied by talent, speed, and an increasing level of maturity in their young players.

From what I have read, their improving financial picture will allow them to purchase an Ozil a year from now on, and in addition they have yet to fully develop the brand possibilities in a way that United have done.

The test for them will come against the big clubs. They have yet to prove themselves against us, Chelsea and Man City. That being said, United had one year when we did not do well against the top teams, but we still managed to win the EPL by winning all the "easier" games - which is exactly what Arsenal have been doing since the second half of last season.

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04 Dec 2013 11:34:39
Ready to be shown what quality football looks like tonight boys? The theatre of divvys will be very quiet come 85mins and you've all gone to get your trains back to London moaning about defensive davey

Ps. Lukakus going to get yaaaa

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And if it goes how I expect will we see u back here congratulating us?

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Let me get the congratulations in early.

Congratulations on your appointment of David Moyes. It will be a joy to watch you all fighting the urge to fall asleep watching his brand of football at the theatre of Dreams. How fitting.

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04 Dec 2013 15:49:47
A question to all the toffees on here, do you have short memories and have forgotten all what David Moyes has done for your club or are you just bitter about him leaving?

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04 Dec 2013 16:19:54
remember now boys no more of this 'we are playing like everton not UNITED', no you are playing like a david moyes team, get your heads out your arses and start saying united are struggling because of david moyes not because you are playing like the former everton, good luck buying iniesta, fabregas and ronaldo yenno all these big players you can no longer attract? anyway win or lose tonight we are going to have a good go at it, come on blues (ed please post, just banter)

Mike-Ox Long

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04 Dec 2013 16:34:54
wanted him gone for years mate, he runs his contract down to get us no compensation, been planning it with whiskey nose for at least a year, says are two best players are too good for us, said when he was here we don't sell cheap, he then offers us chump change for our two best players, whilst here he wrecked every striker we had, refused to buy flair players and bottled it out of every big game whilst saying we are improving when in reality we were just staying at the same level, he played negative and unattractive football all the while winning us f*ck all so apologies if I fail to see what great things he did for our club

Mike-Ox Long

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I can almost guarantee that Martinez will not be as successful as David Moyes was at Everton. Baines is getting old, Deulofeu and Lukaku are gone at the end of the season and Barkley will move to a bigger club soonish so while you're all happy now I'm going to bring you back down to earth and say don't get too excited for the future.

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04 Dec 2013 17:06:18
baines is getting old? and?, deulofeu is back next season and lukaku will be replaced, if barkley does move it won't be to united I can guarantee, I can also guarantee martinez will do better than moyes but since you are psychic and can predict the future I suppose I have no valid reason for arguing oh so great one

Mike-Ox Long

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No u have no reason arguing because u are about as sharp as a door knob mate.

Once again i'm less than suprised at the Everton fans total lack of respect for a man that has kept u in a league where for many seasons u didn't belong.

I understand why they call u bitters now mate, but remember one thing the season is 9 months long and all this nonsense u keep talking will only come back and bite u in your rear end (now that is something I CAN guarantee u).

Now go away and try and think up some excuses about why u lost tonite!

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04 Dec 2013 19:44:45
we don't belong in? yes because as we all know united have ruled england since times began oh wait they havn't if we don't belong in the prem then you lot don't belong in the world of football mate, I don't need excuses mate if we lose we lose and martinez will admit that, if you lot lose moyes will be the one making up the excuses and you along with your incredibly childish comments on our page amongst other things, the whole of england wants us to win tonight but i'm assuming they are about as sharp as door knobs too eh, lol

Mike-Ox Long

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04 Dec 2013 08:16:15
What a fickle creatures football fans' are :0)

After the Aston Villa game at the beginning of the season, where the youngsters' of Villa made a mugs of the Arsenal team, Arsenal fans' were calling for Wenger to be axed. Now, after, how shall we say, a comfortable set of fixtures and a good run, Wenger is the bloody second coming LOL

Arsenal, are undoubtedly a top team and are playing well, but they still have no real depth in their squad, which will bite them on the ar.e over the coming months.

I still think we have the ability to finish above them this season, even with a nine point gap.

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I think you are completely underestimating arsenal. They have had a few injuries this season already.
Also, you are forgetting that their stadium is more or less laid for and they can now complete on the transfer front, hence ozil.
I would be more worried about where we're heading as if you analize our first team, and squad, you will realise we're not as good as we think we are.

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Arsenal did win 3-0 at Cardiff last week whilst we scrabbled a 2-2 draw the week before.

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Paulo, Arsenal have done well this season scoring at the right times during games. Something we have been struggling to do up til now. Against Southampton and Cardiff we had chances to go 2.0 and 3.1 up but wasted them good chances and it came back to bite us on the ass. Arsenal have also had the right fixtures at the right times too. They have had difficult games, then an easy one or two straight afterwards to get themselves back on track. It will be interesting to see how well they do after the Hull match as they haven't faced a fixture build-up like that yet.

Nomidfield, Oezil is only at Arsenal due to there being no other admirers for him. He would have knocked them back in an heartbeat had we come in for him. There stadium is nowhere near more or less paid for, not sure where you get that info from? Arsenal needed to make a big signing as the fans were beginning to question the ownership and AW. I think we will see Arsenal go back to signing potential in the near future until the Russian buys the club from Kroenke.

Arsenal are a good side with some good players, but they do not know how to win a Championship. I think they will finish 4th behind ourselves, City and Chelsea. That is my opinion. I believe we would have a similar amount of points to them had we had their fixture list.

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Syd, that's misguided arrogance. It's not simply a matter of Arsenal having kinder fixtures than us, they have played far better than us this season.

We have played poorly in numerous games this year, and have lost points in 'easy' games. Arsenal have made sure that they win against lesser sides, and have actually performed well against good sides too: winning against Spurs, Liverpool, Napoli, and away to Dortmund. I'm not sure if they will be capable for keeping it up for the season, and I think it's City's league to lose, but Arsenal have been vastly superior to us this season and I see little evidence that this will change.

You talk about Arsenal lacking players who know how to win a title, but we have a manager who doesn't know how to win, full stop. I would be far more concerned about Moyes continuing to falter than Arsenal falling away.

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Danny, the thread is a discussion regarding Arsenal. Why would I be discussing MU?

Like I said, let's see how well Arsenal cope after the Hull game. Their fixture list has been very kind to them. That is a fact Danny.

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Arsenal are benefitting from not having upheaval during the pre-season. They signed a world class player in Ozil, and it raised the spirits of the club all-round. They have a settled back four who are playing well; but chuck a few cogs into that well oiled machine, and problems will occur.

This has happened before: They were something like ten points clear of us at Christmas, only to fall apart after getting beat by Birmingham city in the League cup.

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Syd is right, arsenal are playing teams like Cardiff after they played us and put all that effort in giving us a proper game, its hardly surprising a week later they can't match those standards again, tonite against hull will be the same after the effort they put in against that lot

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Syd, you argued that they would finish in 4th behind us. That is a discussion on Arsenal and United.

The fact of the matter is that Arsenal have been, by and large, playing very well this year regardless of the opposition. They look a far better side than United so far, but you were implying that we might be challenging for the title but Arsenal will not.

After the City game we supposedly had an easy run of games and how did that turn out? The mark of title contenders is their ability to get 3 points off the weaker teams. Arsenal have been doing this, we have not.

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Syd, I am not sure you are right about Ozil. I think Arsenal are a very attractive proposition.
I think we went for Ozil and he chose Arsenal, but if we didn't got for him, then why the hell not?
We then compounded the felany by going for the most useless, untalented, slow player we could have bought and he cost us £27m.
Who do you think is the winner out of those two?

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Danny, we are just 13 games into a 38 game season. Arsenal have had a lot of easy games at home, they will win these games this early in the season when the pressure is off and they are confident, it's in the second half of the season when they start to feel they are true title contenders that the nerves will kick in. Just like it does for everyone, just like you described in your last post (after City game). And all of the tough games that they have played this season thus far against the better sides have been at the Emirates (Southampton, Liverpool & Spurs). Arsenal are yet to play Chelsea and City. That is potentially four to six points dropped. Then they need to play a lot of tough games in the second half of the season away fro the Emirates. Arsenal have had it easier than anyone this season so far hence they are top of the league. No doubt our failures have been against Southampton, Cardiff & WBA and we need to start winning these types of games, but things will look much tighter by the end of this month at the top and I agree that City are the benchmark. I just do not believe Arsenal are title contenders. I also have faith that we will find our way soon and start winning. We have a good run-in and we have played a lot of the difficult away games already.

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Danny,

They are so much better than us in every game so much so that when we played them we beat them.

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I tend to agree with Sydney that Arsenal will struggle to keep up their current form over a long season. They don't have the depth of City or Chelsea. It's a transitional year for us and a consistent run may be beyond us. Third in the league, above Arsenal would be a good result. Expectations will be higher next season.

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Arsenal -

Liverpool A
Spurs A
Chelsea A
Chelsea H
United H
City A
City H

MU -

Liverpool H
Spurs H
Arsenal A
Chelsea A
City H

What fixtures would you prefer Danny?

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One of syds predictions .
Well that means arsenal will now win the title I'm off down the bookies

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Good to see Fellaini getting a chance on here, NM.

That is one of the worst posts I've ever seen on here about a Manchester United player, and there's been some bad ones.

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Syd, you're pointing to the games against the top five teams in the league as if they are the be all and end all of the league. Yes, Arsenal have harder fixtures coming up. And yes, they will drop points in these fixtures. But the fact of the matter is that Arsenal look like they can comfortably beat most of the teams in the league. I can't say that about United, can you?

The brunt of the argument in this thread is that United are title contenders because they will come good and that Arsenal are not because they will implode. There is no evidence to support either of these claims. The evidence shows that Arsenal have been galvanised by the signing of Ozil (who will only get better as he gets used to the EPL) and are playing their best football in years: their defence is much improved, their midfield is the best in the league, they are, however, very light up front. On the other hand, United are enduring their worst start ever to a PL season. We have failed too add any quality to the side and Moyes is struggling to cope with life at a top club. It's complete arrogance to expect United to succeed and Arsenal to fail based on the season so far.

And GDS are you suggesting that Liverpool are better than United so?

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Nomidfield, it's well known that Oezil held out as long as he could for MU to call him before agreeing to the Arsenal move. He will never admit to that, but he also never denied it either. Arsenal are an attractive proposition, I agree, but after City, Chelsea & ourselves (possibly Spurs) from England.

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{Ed002's Note - Manchester United were amongst several clubs to have enquired about the player. Whatever was going to happen, it was most unlikely any deal could have happened with MU.}

Danny, I am not basing anything on what's happened 13 games into this season. I am basing it on us being Premier league Champions just six month's ago and the fact that we have the same players that won it for us plus Januzaj and Fellaini. I am basing it on our dominance of the past decade and Arsenal's failures, their failure to win anything since 2005. The players are adjusting to life without SAF. It was always going to take a little time and I thoroughly believe the confidence will return and we will start winning again. The difference between MU and Arsenal this season so far is confidence (ours low, theirs high) and an easier fixture list. Do you seriously believe Arsenal are a better side than us? Even with a better midfield on paper they were outdone by our midfield.

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Just because United beat arsenal doesn't mean we are a better team it certainly doesn't mean we have a better midfielder .
Syd
Not basing your opinion on this season but on What has happened in the past is very silly and naive imo.
Arsenal are a different team from last season likewise United.

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That's exactly what I mean by misguided arrogance Syd. You're main argument is United are challengers because we have been dominant for so long, and Arsenal will fail because they have failed for so long. We were Champions last season but Arsenal have been the most consistent performers in 2013. They are confident because they have been playing well for a long period of time. They may not win the league, but they certainly look like they have a better chance than we do.

On paper there isn't much between the teams. However: their defence has been a constant this year and they have looked a far more cohesive unit than ours because of that. In midfield, they are leagues above us and one poor performance against us does not change that. Up front they are thin and if Giroud gets injured they will really struggle. But the one thing that they have over us, and it isn't confidence, is a top class manager. Say what you want about Wenger, but he has a clear vision of how his teams should play and when it works it works. We don't seem to have any coherent style of play and that will continue to cost us point after point.

Arsenal have had a decade of faliure, but they look like they have begun to turn a corner. We have enjoyed two decades of success, but we also look like we are in real danger of turning a corner too.

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Ed002, is that MU's reluctance to pay the £5m+ agent fee? The same way MU are reluctant to pay any extortionate agent fees?

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{Ed002's Note - Clubs look at and enquire after players at all times - but it doesn't mean a deal is anywhere close. No team wants to over pay but there are many other considerations, such as would a player fit in to the team, does the player want to move etc.. Too often folks think - he's a good player we should buy him. I explained that Dortmund, Juve and Manchester City have also looked in the past - and a significant offer from another club was rejected in January. Time to move on.}

Jred, how many times have Arsenal been in a good position over the past ten years and then collapsed? The same will happen this season. They do not have what it takes to win a league, not yet. We do have what it takes and we proved that last season with the EXACT same squad that we have now. Chelsea and City players like ours also know how to win titles. It is not silly or naive to think that MU, Chelsea and City will finish higher than Arsenal because all three of the teams have won major honours. Arsenal have not. What is silly and naive is ruling out MU as title contenders whilst considering Arsenal as title contenders when they haven't won a crumb in a decade. let's see where MU and Arsenal end up this May, but I guarantee you that Arsenal will not be Champions.

Danny, that is part of the reason yes. You cannot underestimate what league winning experience adds to a team. Unless you are suggesting the experience MU players have in winning titles is not important? This is why I believe only Chelsea, City and ourselves can win the league this season. We have done it before. The other reasons are that Arsenal have had a much easier fixture run than everyone else and when they start to feel the pressure that we have had to put up with due to the appointment of Moyes, then we will see how well Arsenal do. Arsenal are under no pressure right now. When you start seeing Arsene having his paddies on the touchline we will know that the team are starting to feel the pressure. I think this month is crucial for them. I wouldn't be surprised to see eight points dropped by Arsenal this month, then the pressures will kick in around March and they will begin to fall away. Man City are the benchmark. If we finish higher than City, then we win the league.

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Basing your opinion on the past and not on the current is naive.
Saying that arsenal are not title contenders when they are playing the best football in the league and are top is stupid .
That's my last words on it with you as there really is no point

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I am basing my opinion PARTLY on the past. Arsenal always bottle it, we win titles. Do you think history doesn't tell us anything? The past? What less than a year ago you mean? Are you suggesting a squad that won the league just six month's ago cannot win it this season? Arsenal have always played very good football, but where has that got them in the past ten years? Liverpool were top not too long ago, does that mean they are genuine title contenders too? Spurs are 9th now, do you think they will finish 9th? We are just 13 games into the season.

Based on Arsenal's history of bottling it, their players' lack of experience at winning a league title and the fact that they haven't really been tested yet due to a favourable fixture list, I do not believe they are genuine title contenders. That is my reasons. I believe Chelsea, City and ourselves all know how to win a title and Arsenal IMO will finish below all three of these teams. I believe we will start to see a true reflection of the genuine title contenders around March. I do not see Arsenal as genuine title contenders. Sorry if that upsets you ;)

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Syd ure fighting a losing battle here mate i'd give up if I was u, they will never admit to anything positive about us so why bother?

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The difference between this years Arsenal and last year is they are defensively much better and Aaron Ramsey. whilst everyone thinks that if Giroud gets injured they will struggle, I think their downfall will be if they get any longterm injuries to their CD pair which is very settled now.

They have goals up front from quite a few players and even without Giroud will be alright.

They have Chelsea and City coming up and two possible loses throws the whole table into a nicely packed bunch.

I am not sure if these are away or home games but City away is a guaranteed loss and Chelsea being a local derby will be difficult no matter where the game is and Mourinho has a knack of beating them.

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I don't think your opinion is upsetting, it's embarrassing. One of those groan worthy statements that makes it hard to defend Manchester United fans against the charges that they are arrogant and delusional.

Your main argument is that Manchester United are title contenders because they are Manchester United and Manchester United always challenge for titles, but Arsenal aren't serious contenders because they are Arsenal and Arsenal always bottle it. If you can't actually see how silly that argument is, then I don't know what to say.

The second part of your argument is the equally cringeworthy, 'we know how to win titles, they don't.' Ignoring the obvious contradiction (to know how to win a title a team must first win a title without 'knowing' how to do so), the Manchester United players have won titles, but there is a completely new management and coaching team who have never won trophies. It's ridiculous to argue that Arsenal don't know how to win titles on one hand, while at the same time completely dismissing the importance of United now having a coaching team that lacks experience at the top level, let alone experience winning titles.

Next, United have the same players, but the squad has major differences from last season. Ferdinand is a year older and doesn't look like he can cut it at this level any more, as are Evra and Vidic. Carrick, Rafael and RVP have all struggled for fitness so far, which didn't happen last year. And there is the obvious changes in management and coaching which have had a clear impact. We have the same players but this season's Manchester United are not the same as last season's.

Finally, Arsenal have some difficult games coming up, and they will drop points. But United have been dropping points in the supposedly 'easy' games and that is the difference. I don't see any plausible argument as to why we should be considered title contenders but Arsenal should not.

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Stevie. Apart from us not agreeing on anything, why was my post on fellaini the worst post ever? Is he quick? Has he done anything useful? Would u say he's a talented midfielder?
If you answer yes, then you must be watching a different player.
I'm sure you'll disagree cause that's what you do best. But head out of the sand and see what fellaini has contributed and you'll see its not a lot.
Even moyes is not starting with hom in the side. But i'm sure you know better.

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Nomidfield and Stevie - Get a room guys!

Deeps.

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One of the worst ever about a current Manchester United player. It's your constructive criticism about a player who's only joined the club, and who could do with some backing from the fans, that I love the most.

I think hyperbole and over-exaggeration are your middle names, mate.

I'm sure he knows himself he hasn't set the place alight, but he's a top international player, which makes me think he might be a bit better than you describe him.

But then the Belgian manager, who claims Fellaini is one of his best, must know a lot less than you.

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Danny
Excellent post took the words out of my mouth.
@Chris the Redman
The discussion is nothing to do with United it whether arsenal are title contenders.
They have a good GK settled back 4 excellent midfield and a striker bang in form. Add a good manager who has won titles before, good tactics which suites the players, 4-2-3-1 is perfect for them and they are currently playing the best football in the league and are in fact top of league, I think that makes them title contenders.
You and syd obviously think because they haven't won it in a while there not?

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"I don't see any plausible argument as to why we should be considered title contenders but Arsenal should not."

It's simply my opinion that Arsenal will bottle it. So I am not sure where you are getting the "WE" from. I do not think Arsenal will be in the top three come May. That is my opinion and if you do not like it then tough titties ;)

I hope MU win tonight obviously, but also for the added bonus that it will p!ss you off Mr Meldrew.

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