Manchester United Banter Archive December 05 2014

05 Dec 2014 15:55:50
Alright everyone,

I've seen articles/posts from numerous sources that suggest MU have the desire to become the next Real Madrid. Talk of blank cheques and a seemingly bottomless transfer budget for LvG to reinforce the squad with so called Galacticos.

Is anyone aware of any truth to this and what does this mean for financial fair play with regards MU, having already spent over £150 million?

Cheers.

I would love to see a smaller squad with big names in it. It seems we are working away towards that end.

05 Dec 2014 17:05:02
Maybe if Manchester had the weather of Madrid.

Forget the big names let's go for quality. Agree with the smaller squad and i think LVG has done a great job so far . shipping out 20+ through sales and loans . more to do yet though.

05 Dec 2014 18:38:37
Well isn't that a nice exciting story that'll be sure to attract a lot of attention and sell multiple copies.

One of these newspapers said last week, valdes has left Manchester United. Gone back to Spain.3 days later it said he's back only went home for the weekend!haha they haven't a clue what's going on!

Supposedly last season Ed Woodward said United could afford 500m if they desired, now obviously that is a ludicrous sum and isn't going to happen, not sure how much before we get into FFP problems, maybe an Ed would have some sort of idea (Cue Ed)

{Ed002's Note - It doesn't really work like that Pardoe. The immediate FFP problem relates to wages.}

05 Dec 2014 12:31:33
So let's have a change of subject, let's talk about the centre back issue and how we could fix it. As ultimately the great teams are built on solid foundations.

Now to see what is wrong with our defence we need to look at the job each defender has to do. The full backs have the simplest job from a defensive view point, stopping and wide players being able to enter the box with the ball or pass the ball into the box. The issue is that in the modern game they are also vital players in adding attacking width. For a full back to be effective as an attacking and a defensive player possession is the key, if you have it then your full backs have the security to move forward and provide attacking width without fear of being exposed. Our full backs there for are good as they have all the qualities needed to both attack and defend but the issue is having more control over the ball and not giving it away in silly places thus exposing the full backs. Barcelona haven't had great defensive full backs for several years but the fact they normally have 70% possession and only allow the opposition to have possession in less threatening areas have allowed them to get away with less than adequate defensive full backs. It's not going to happen over night but if we can get to a point where we are having 65-70% possession in most games then with the higher quality of a full backs then arguably we will be stronger defensively than Barca were in wide areas. So i don't really see the full backs as a weakness other than Rafael's poor injury history there for we may need to bring in someone as competition and cover for him, Clyne has been improving well for the last few years and looks like he could be a good option, being english and perm proven is also a bonus. Other than him then maybe Martin Montoya form Barca should be considered.

The main issue we have defensively is in the heart of our defence and this can happen when a club has two such great centre backs such as Rio and Vidic were. When you have two players such as that it becomes very hard for other younger players to get the game time they need in order to push on and turn potential into proven ability on a consistent basis. That has clearly happened at our club limiting the progression of players such as Jones, Smalling and Evans who was rated so highly as a youngster that Sir Alex felt comfortable in letting Pique go back to Barca. Only Jones imo has any chance of being able to push on and reach his potential now as both Smalling and Evans are already in their mid twenties and may have lost too much time.

But that's only half the problem, the main issue is organisation within the defensive unit. A centre back partnership requires communication and defined roles within the unit. Normally one centre back will attack the danger and move toward the threat thus trying to make a tackle or block while the other will sit deeper and sweep up if the first defender misses or is by passed. Vidic would always attack the danger where as Rio would normally do the tidying up after. If we look at our current crop they have never had a defined role as they have always been filling in for whoever was missing from the line up. Evans is better at the sweeping role where as Jones and Smalling are better at being the first defender. But when Jones or Smalling have played with Vidic they have been made to move into a role they are less comfortable with, they will at times have to play such a role in order for them to become complete defenders it is detrimental for their progression if they are not allowed to define their best traits.

If we look at the other CB we signed this past summer then it becomes clear that Rojo too is better suited to the first defender role too. Players of this type tend to be more tenacious in the tackle and more prone to dive into a tackle, there for their timing speed and strength tend to be their better qualities. The sweeper role requires more of a thinker, someone who is less likely to dive in as they will more often than not be the last man, they will stand their ground and force players wide and into less dangerous positions giving time to their team mates to get back into a better position to defend. Therefore their reading of the game and pace tend to be key qualities they also tend to be better passers due to their vision and more refined qualities. Evans is our only player who possesses these qualities and there for it becomes clear that we need more players with these qualities as when he's injured we have no one to play this role with the required quality.

So I see us looking for players who are better readers of the game with vision and passing quality.
Obviously Mats Hummels stands out as the stand out candidate but he may be hard to get. I wouldn't rule out Real Madrid coming in for him if Dortmund show even a slight willingness to sell. They could move Varane out for a high fee and bring in one of the the worlds best defenders who would work very well with Ramos, it would certainly fit their Galactico policy even if they would prefer to sign attacking players. Varane could be an option but if he was to be sold then he without a doubt will end up at Chelsea as Terry's long term replacement. We have recently been linked with Godin who is an exceptional defender and one of the best in the world last season, but i have two issues with him, first he played very well in a team that had a defend first attitude, I wonder could he repeat his form for a team with more attacking flair and less defensive solidity. My other worry is he is more a Vidic type defender who attacks the ball rather than the thinker and passer we need. For me one of the best options is Nicolas Otamendi, a player who would look comfortable in midfield with his passing ability but reads the game so well. Other options could be Benedkt Howedes who ticks the boxes or if you wanted to look at a younger option we should and apparently are having a look at Terrence Kongolo who's a great little passer and has great reading of the game.

Seeing as LvG likes to have a balance between right and left footed players then maybe the best option would be to sign both Otamendi and Kongolo which would give us a much stinger pool of defenders to choose from, Otamendi and Rojo would complement each other well while Jones and Kongolo would too, this would allow us to focus on bringing through two partnerships which could be switched when injuries occur. As and added bonus Kongolo would offer an extra option as LB while Jones has shown he can cover RB when needed.

For me if we were to sign Clyne Otamendi and Kongolo over the next two windows then we would have all the ingredients needed to build a strong defence capable of winning things at the highest level.

Shappy. Good post. The only thing I disagree with is Jones. He has been injury prone from day one. He doesn't possess the intelligence to become a top defender. He dives into silly tackles and gets injured. And a lot of the time he does that because he is out of position. I don't rate any of Jones, Smalling or Evans.
I will ship these out and bring in some intelligent defender who are good at positioning as well as tackling. Hummels is the standout candidate, but look at BD this year, Hummels and Subotic have not been the CB partnership of old, all be it Subotic has just come back from injury.
Personally, I like the look of Otemendi and I think we should give McNair a chance too as backup.

Jones is a good defender but he needs to play as a CB being asked to play as a CM and a RB no wonder his positioning is a little shaky at times.

Hummels is the stand out candidate but i have a few issues with him, first off he has no recovery pace what so ever so if he is caught out of position then he might as well not be there as he won't be able to get back into position. In Germany or Spain that won't be a problem but in the Prem we have the quickest transitions from defence into attack which is why its considered by many to be an exciting league because of the end to end nature of the game. But for a player such as Hummels those quick transitions will lead to him being caught out of position more than he does in Germany. Hummels is probably the best CB in the world atm but i'm not convinced his game is suited to the EPL. I'm sure he would adapt with time but the british press are known for jumping the gun and not allowing players time to settle. He would carry a huge fee and for me would still represent some kind of a risk. I don't mind paying huge fees for players but they can't be risky signings they have to be as close to a dead cert as possible. that's not to say i would be unhappy if we signed him, just that i would have a couple of concerns until he proved me wrong. lol.

I really like McNair, he looks a fantastic prospect but from everything i can find out about him from several sources he is considered as a defensive type midfielder in the long run and is being given games at CB to improve his vision and reading of the game ahead of a move into midfield. He will be Carricks long term successor with Blind filling in during the medium term imo.

But he could certainly do a job at CB in the short term with the first team.

Personally i would move on both Evans and Smalling.

If we had Clyne, Rafael, Otamendi, Jones, McNair, Rojo, Kongolo, Blackett and Shaw as options in defence then i would be very happy.

05 Dec 2014 13:46:29
For me the stand out is varane, i'd take him or otamendi. Haven't seen enough of kongolo. I also agree with nomid on mcnair and would add Blackett as well ass a useful squad player.

MrE, Varane is exceptional but he is a Jose man through and through and all Jose will need to do is click his fingers and he'll go running to Chelsea. Add that to the fact Terry needs replacing in the near future then we might have to accept seeing Varane playing in the blue of Chelsea rather than the red of United in the not so distant future.

{Ed002's Note - It is not as simple as that as Chelsea has already held multiple meetings with Real Madrid to discuss players - including Varane.}

Shappy

Jones is useless and you can"t build a team around him. His injuries are generally 4 to 6 weeks long and it happens twice a year at the minimum. That is almost half the sea on mate. Some guys are naturally dutiable be it physique or genetics and he is definitely the opposite.

I like rojo and hunk he will be a beast in a few years as for a defender he is still quite young and give him a bit of bulk and he could be something special.

I agree with you on Hummels he has a tendency of being caught with the ball over the top and his pace if you play a high pressing line is not great and we all know how fast the PL is. My guess is we will see a CB coming in that no one expected ala rojo

Interesting thing Moyes said on BEIN sports a few weeks ago. We were offered Mangala but he thought never worth 30 plus million and said at the moment really good cb's are far and few and they looked every where for one whilst he was at united.

As talented as Jones is he is equally as frustrating through injury's, IMO he has become a waste of space.
Varane is a great shout.

Jones is way too fragile. Every time he hits the deck he gets up limping . and i mean every time.

04 Dec 2014 23:34:38
Hi just want people's. Thoughts on the international leagues that uafa are putting in place

It would do more harm than good in my opinion

Although i don't know a great deal on how it will work, i do think that the international friendly games needed something to happen as they are and have been completely pointless for sometime. at least the games will become more competitive

05 Dec 2014 13:39:13
strebor,

I agree there, giving international friendlies a reason to exist and giving players a chance to play some 'competitive' international football other than just qualifiers and major tournaments will be quite useful.