Manchester United Banter Archive April 08 2014

08 Apr 2014 20:37:02
i read today that toni kroos has said he's ready to join us what are the chances of that?

Paper talk Mino, he hasn't said anything its the typical "friends of Toni Kroos have said" they use that to just make stories up usually

His agent has denied it .

08 Apr 2014 17:29:09
I have a question for all of you.

IF United win the UCL and Finish 6th would your opinion of Moyes and our season change?

If so, why?
If not why?

EDs, Posters, I'm intrigued.

{Ed004's Note - Yes cause it shows that he has some tactical knowledge, he would automatically gain more respect from professionals be it players or managers which I reckon would make his job easier as pressure s lifted and it will show he can win against the big teams}

If he wins the champions league, I'm swimming all the way to Manchester to give Rooney a piggy back ride!

We will not win the CL and it will not have any impact on my opinion off him. I am undecided until I see what he does in the summer and how we set up next season.

I will make a decision based on next season,
But to be fair he has been pretty good in Europe, most of our best performances have been in the cl

ED004 - Moyes does have tactical knowledge, that much I know.

It just so happens that we don't have the personnel currently to actually play any system without SAF turning them from average players to good players.

GCU - nobody said we would. You have to be in it, to win it though. so my questions is IF! we win it, would your opinion change. not we are going to win it and you're all wrong. lol.

My personal feeling is that if Moyes pulls it out the bag then we've all go to stand up and admit we were wrong and United were right to keep him.

I've never been 'sack moyes' and un like most I do think he's the man for the job currently.

I have faith in both him and United.

Mick

If he win it it would be an accomplishment like no other. I think it would make his job much easier as he has been under the microscope about everything.

My view on Moyes wouldn't change as I am happy to give him the summer and well into next season, before truly judging him. It would change my view on the season of course, as it is the most prestigious trophy and gives us a place next season. Personally, I think if we get past Bayern he will have saved some face, even without winning the whole thing.

Pep Guardiola has said that if Bayern don't win the CL this season he will walk. Professor Stephen Hawkins has responded by saying that if Manchester United do win the CL, he will walk. boom boom.
Sorry. I'll get me coat. Again!

If Moyes won the CL then there would be considerably more belief than there is now that his motivation and tactics were of the required standard and might actually bring benefits. Players would start to believe and a win on his CV would buy him time next season and possibly make us more attractive to players than before, a little like Chelsea after their win. We should remember that Rafa Benitez won the CL and whilst it bought him more time it didn't give him the dynasty that SAF had built mainly because SAF was a ruthless winner who knew what it took to refresh the team and keep winning time and again plus Rafa couldn't keep it going in other competitions and the pressure intensified. It would be Moyes first ever real win and there would still be some doubts until he won something else significant to show it wasn't sheer cup luck. The main reason for doubt is that the CL is a cup competition that anyone can win, look at Liverpool and Chelsea plus no one has defended it in its present format. We have a small chance, however, does it make Moyes the right choice, not for me at that point, but it would buy him time even in my books. Winning is what it is all about and semi finals and even losing finalists mean nothing, that is the level for him now, unlucky doesn't cut it. Long way to go and mass defence will not go down well as an option for very long, it also might frustrate Munich at OT but Madrid I am not so sure.

I don't believe we can win the cup if honest also beating Bayern seems as if there's only one way by hitting them on the counter at this time.
There have been signs of us improving and the acid test will come I think, if DM has the stones to continue to play Mata behind the striker at the expense of Rooney or RVP.
Already there are signs he could be good enough but fraught times ahead

Unlikely Moon, but if we did it would be massive for Moyes, and he'd get next season (and money) to prove he could do more.

I think he's the right man for us right now, we need a clean out, at the very least he is dimming the shadow of Fergy for the next man. Remains to be seen if he can build a PL winning team, which is a must for a long stay at the helm.

I've always backed him btw

08 Apr 2014 15:49:08
What do you guys think?

Will Varela, Wilson, Janko, Pearson get a few minutes in the last few games?

With DM playing a second team against Newcastle away, it may indicate that he isn't too fussed with the EPL this season now. Or it maybe that he just wants the UCL much much more. If it's the former, then maybe we will see a bit of Wilson this season, but I doubt we will see any others.

Sydney I think its more he needs to do well in the CL than not caring about the prem. The pressure was building massively and lately it has bought him a meansure of time

08 Apr 2014 12:31:08
How do people like Cleverly and Welbeck compare to Wilson etc when they were in the academy? They have never really stepped up as much as I hoped to.

Wilson is seen as a better player than Welbeck at the same age. More advanced. The club knew both Welbeck and Cleverley will need loans and they knew they would not be ready until their early 20's due to their physicality. Wilson is developing much quicker physically. Both Welbeck and Cleverley at 18 had great potential, but neither have realised it yet. That's just my opinion though.

Cleverley was never one of the eye catching talents in the U21s, drifting from one position to the other, and spending a lot of time out on loan ( not unlike Lingard ). Some believed he would have a career here, but they were by no means the majority of fans.

Welbeck on the other hand was a step above, on the same level as a pre loans Macheda. Much like Evans, at around the age of 19, he looked so much better than anyone on the field. I think that Wilson at 18 is as good as Welbeck at 19, and has a higher ceiling. He lacks Welbeck's all around capacity ( a wee bit slower and not as strong ) but he is a more capable goalscorer.

So imo Cleverley exceeded expectations ( his productivity at Watford was a pleasant surprise but I never thought of him as a mainstay in the team, kind of like Lingard or James )while Welbeck has not yet reached his limit. Wilson can go a couple of steps above Cleverley and even better than Welbeck.

Mick, Cleverley may have "surprised" you, but MU coaches knew he would break into the MU squad. They just didn't know when. Cleverley was one of the stand out performers from the age of 12-16.

I seriously doubt that Syd. He was not, and never will be, half as talented as Pogba, Morrison, Daehli, Januzaj or even Welbeck, hence why atm people are signing petitions for him to be banned from the world cup.

We can no longer blame Davie's tackle as the reason Cleverley failed to improve. He suffers no physical pain because of it, and if it left a psychological scar, well too darn bad. It means he does not have the mentality to reach the top level.

Cleverley failed to improve because he is an average talent. His short passing is decent and unimaginative, his long range passing inconsistent, his tackling bad and his ability to intercept mediocre. His dribbling is none existent and he is a pretty bad striker of the ball.

The only thing he has is a good playing style. I d believe we need to have a player like Cleverley in our starting 11, just not Cleverley. He is a significantly less talented version of Koke and we should stop overrating any english talent who does not panic when he receives possession.

How a kid plays from the ages of 12-16 has very little relevance to how good they will be as an adult.

Carloto, who said it did?

Mick, you clearly never followed the MU youth set-up when Welbeck and Cleverley were part of it.

Now you see Syd, sometimes you say things that make you sound like a pretentious know it all, and quite clearly, you don't.

I have been an avid follower of youth games for over 8 years. Just because I disagree with you over Cleverley's talent ( it's quite clear i'm the one who has been proven right seeing just how mediocre Cleverley is ) does not mean I did not use to watch youth football. It means I have a different pinion to yours, and it looks like mine has been the one proven right.

Mick, this discussion has absolutely nothing to do with you disagreeing with me over Cleverley's talent, this is about what the MU coaches and playing staff thought of Cleverley when he was in the youth set-up. And he was very highly regarded. That isn't my opinion, that is a fact. If you truly have been an avid follower for eight years then you would know this.

I'm with Mick on this cleverly has always looked nothing but average to me

Jred, that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about what the MU coaches and playing staff thought of Cleverley as a youth player.

On the other hand if you have always thought Cleverley was average, then why describe him as a "good tidy little player" less than two years ago.

It's also very clear to us that you do not follow the youth set-up, so you wouldn't have a clue about what me and Mick are talking about to be fair.

Syd
Tidy player = average, it's the same thing
I don't catch a lot of the United youth games but I did see cleverly for the England u 21 and he looked average at that level even when playing as an "over age player"

I think it's you who has missed the point while you are going on about what United coaching staff supposedly though Mick has given his own opinion.
And while you have tried to argue cleverly was going to be world-class, I think most would agree Micks assessment is closer to the mark

Jred, 'AGAIN' the whole discussion has nothing to do with my opinion on Cleverley. We were talking about how Cleverley was regarded by the staff whilst he was in the youth set-up. Mick says he has exceeded his expectations, but the truth is that the club expected much more out of him than we have seen. When he was a youth player he WAS a standout player. That was my point.

And "good tidy little player" doesn't mean average. No doubt he hasn't developed the way people had hoped, but he was highly regarded as a youth player and had all the tools (so to speak) to be a very good player. This of course just goes to show that not every top talent makes the grade. Cleverley is a decent player, but he is not a MU player and will never be a first choice MU player. He hasn't fulfilled his potential.

{Ed025's Note - i agree syd, he reminds me of jack rodwell, loads of potential but never actually fulfilling it...would he get into any of the top sides team?...the answer is NO!..

Again syd I think if you read micks post again you will see he was given his opinion on him an opinion that I agree with and one that is in stark contrast to your " he will be world-class"

And are you really that arrogant that you are trying to tell me what I mean when I say "good tidy little player "?

At United, real, Munich, barce level that's average, make no mistake I have never thought cleverly would be anything but average for a team like United

Ed025, exactly my point. He hasn't exceeded expectations, truth is he hasn't fulfilled his potential. He was highly regarded as a youngster much like Jack Rodwell. SAF badly wanted to sign Rodwell as a youngster, in hindsight we can say that Rodwell is average now, but as a youth player he was very highly regarded by Everton and MU.

Jred, Mick's opinion on Cleverley or my opinion on Cleverley is irrelevant. That isn't what we are talking about here, it isn't what I am disagreeing with. What I disagree with is Mick saying Cleverley wasn't anything special as a youngster and that he's exceeded his expectations. That is incorrect. As a youth player he was highly regarded by MU, just like Wilson is now and if he had followed the MU youth set-up at that time, then he would know this.

"Again syd I think if you read micks post again you will see he was given his opinion on him an opinion that I agree with and one that is in stark contrast to your " he will be world-class""

So you agree with Mick that Cleverley as a youth player was not highly regarded by MU? Truth is you don't have a clue because you never seen him as a youth player, neither did Mick.

When you look at it in hindsight it's funny, but Cleverley as a youth player had the potential to be world-class. He had all of the tools there to succeed. So far he hasn't and probably won't.

But it doesn't change the fact that he like Wilson, like others, he was tipped to succeed at MU.

"What I disagree with is Mick saying Cleverley wasn't anything special as a youngster and that he's exceeded his expectations."
Sydney

So Mick was wrong when he said cleverly exceeded HIS expectations.

You should maybe post and let Mick know what he really wants for his dinner tonight.

Syd
He is an average player, he was average for England's u21, never stood out at all.
Lots of players are highly regarded it means very little in the grand scheme of things.
I do not for one minute believe he was tipped by anyone other than yourself to be a potentially world class talent.
You argued and argued that he was going to be a top player a world class player others cartridge was average.
It's quite clear who was right

Again, talking about nothing which is related to what myself and Mick were talking about. Pointless!

Jred, cheers mate. I think the biggest argument was whether cleverley showed promise at a younger age. I saw him as more of a Larnell Coe/ Magnus Eikrem, never likely to reach top level. Sydney said that the coaches believed he would become world class back when he was younger. I disagreed with that statement, believing the coaches would have more sense than that which is where Sydney accused me of not watching youth footy.

I believe he is a good " tidy " player, but never, ever a top player. I'm pretty sure the coaches would not have disagreed at the time seeing how he never stood out or showed certain abilities that other youngsters don't ( Pogba displayed his stunning all around game despite being lazy, Januzaj was very calm and silky, Morrison's creativity and technical ability were unrivaled. Cleverley's passing was consistent but that's about it )

Mick, I have never said that MU coaches believed he would become world-class. I am saying when he was in the youth set-up, he was highly regarded by the MU staff and they expected him to succeed at MU just like they expect Adnan, M.Keane and Wilson to do so.

Cleverley was almost always the standout player in the youth set-up. Hence the reason we bought him from Bradford. I am also not saying you aren't an avid watcher of the MU youth set-up. You clearly are and have been for a few years, I just do not think it's been eight years.

The way you have just described Cleverley makes me believe that even more. In his younger years he wasn't just a "good passer". He did it all. He scored for fun and literally was the standout player. You would know this if you had seriously watched him in his younger years.

Mick, if you want to see the kind of things TC used to do in the youth, then watch the clip below. He wasn't a central midfielder for starters. He wasn't just a good passer either. He had it all, but like I have said that means nothing unless you make the step up and IMO he hasn't. Cleverley was full of potential as a youth player, hence the reason he was chosen to go to the preseason tour and play with the MU senior side.

He's 19/20 here, but this is what he did as a 16-18 year old. It's also the kind of stuff he was doing at Watford at 19/20 too. Scored 11 in 33 games and was their player of the year. I am not talking about the TC of today, I am talking about TC as a MU youth player.

tinyurl.com/crynf8w

Syd
Can anyone have a different opinion to you and still be right.
In fact can anyone have a different opinion

Jred, what we are discussing isn't a matter of opinion. How many times do I have to tell you? This is not about my opinion of TC or Mick's opinion of TC. We are talking about how he was regarded as a youth player and he was highly regarded as a youth player by the club. That isn't my opinion, it's fact. He was a standout player just like Wilson is now.

Syd
I may be missing something but from what I can gather after watching TC at youth level mick didn't regard him that highly .
After watching TC at England u21 level I wasn't that impressed and he wasn't regarded as anything special at that level just a tidy player.
I don't think anyone bar yourself thought he was going to be a world beater

{Ed025's Note - this has been done to death now guys, its time to move on, different people will have differing views on players, lets just leave it at that guys..

Jred, if someone said to you in their opinion that dinosaurs were makebelieve, would you tell them they were wrong? Or would you just accept it as it's their opinion? Like I said it's not a matter of opinion. TC was highly regarded as a youth player by the MU coaches. That isn't my opinion, it happened, it's fact.

Now we have spent most of the day talking about this tedious subject :)

Jred, that's exactly what you are missing. We are not talking about whether I regarded him highly or whether Mick did, that's irrelevant, we are talking about how he was regarded in the youth set-up by the MU coaches. You keep going on about what I think, what you think and what Mick thinks, that was never my point.

Am I writing in Mandarin or something?

Ed025 made a great point earlier about Rodwell. He too was regarded highly as a youth player but in hindsight it hasn't quite worked out for him. That still doesn't mean he wasn't potentially a very good player when he was younger.

I can remember making a point of watching Richardson and eagles as they where both highly regarded . But neither had the physical attributes or talent to really make it to the top.
So with that in mind I can fully understand where mik is coming from.

I just can't for the life of me understand why u would think TC would be a WC player as he does nothing amazing.

I would agree Rodwell was potential a very good player if not for injuries but TC just average

I do not and never did think TC would be world-class. I merely said as a youngster he had all the tools to be WC and he did have. The fact he never became WC is irrelevant.

But again, none of this was my point. My point was the club thought highly of TC and he was a standout player in the youth set-up ever since he was signed up at the age of 12.

It was TC's physicality that was the main question mark for the MU coaches. I remember watching SAF on MUTV say that TC always had the quality to be a part of the MU future squad, but there were question marks over his size and strength. I'm sure Red Man saw the same interview, I remember talking about this before and I am sure it was with him. In terms of footballing quality he had it all as a youngster, he hasn't taken the giant leap forward, but many don't to be fair.

I do not and never did think TC would be world-class. I merely said as a youngster he had all the tools to be WC and he did have.
Sydney
Lol we have had this before, back tracking again pal .
What tools, his pace is average, physically he is average, shooting average, passing average, dribbling average . There is nothing that is WC .

Cleverly is so average I don't understand this whole discussion at all. If you look any good midfielders they usually have a combination of a few of these things. Great engine, passing, tackling, shooting, brave, positioning, vision and awareness and calmness on the ball.

Someone please explain how cleverly has any of theses attributes. I think guys like him got overblown because of the england call ups. Let's be honest england of a few years ago where so poor as a team and no wonder guys like him where getting in.

I think he will be a squad player because we have other urgent matters to deal with in the next 2 years as far transfers are cocerned.

After that guys like him and welbeck either really improve or they will be moved on. In his case I am absolutely positive he will be moved on in a few years.

In all honesty he would not even make the bench for Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Arsenal if their squads are fit and we should never play second fiddle to teams like that with these sort of players, homegrown or not.

08 Apr 2014 10:08:16
Ok guys the time is nearly here. Bayern vs United.
A game full of history. I believe we can do this as ww are united, the players will be extra determined by the fact we are not in the top 4 but whatever happens, let's back our team and cheer as much as possible for what could be potentially our last game in the european elite for atleast till 2016. let's do this. Come on you reds

Or September 2015.

Haha thanks sydney for ruining the post ;). but y, As Manchester United fans let's hope tomprrow we show how special our club is.

It wasn't intentional my friend, I am just looking at September 2015 as the time when we are back where we belong.

08 Apr 2014 02:12:40
Been giving it some thought why can't we play a 4-3-1-2 or even a 4-2-2-2 with width coming from the fullbacks. That way Rooney and RVP can play up top and Mata and Kagawa can play centrally. I think switching one of Mata or Kagawa for a pacey winger is still a strong side there are formations that work with the players we have except our midfielders aren't strong enough. After the summer we should have a lot of formations to choose from to get the best out of all of our players. Would like to hear your thoughts.