Manchester United Banter Archive January 08 2014

08 Jan 2014 23:39:17
The Glazers bought a great football club primarily on a financial basis, Man City's owners are using their financial muscle to build a great football club on a footballing basis. It cost about the same - 700m. The City model is now being applied at PSG and Monaco, as it was previously at Chelsea, increasing the breadth of competition at the top levels. These owners want to win at football. The Glazers want to win at business, winning at football is just a means to that end.

The Glazers used a leveraged buyout financed at such high interest rates that all of United's spare cash flow has been consumed funding it. There has been no money left for players, which is the sole reason we haven't purchased a single great one in 8 years. I simply don't believe a man like Fergie, who in previous times was ready and willing to smash transfer price records, all of a sudden couldn't find any value in the market place for 8 years.

With debt levels still around 350m pounds there is simply no way the Glazers are going to fork out the additional 250m-350m it's going to take to replace virtually the whole team, which, as you can see from recent performances, is what it's going to take. The bulk of the squad are not good enough to be anything more than squad players on a top team. Nor, with the club in this state can they go to the market to raise more capital while retaining full ownership and control.

While it is true City have spent a lot on players, many of them still retain their value in the market place, or are worth even more. On the other hand United probably don't have a player who could be sold for 30m+, except possibly Rooney (and maybe de Gea), and if we don't take advantage of that soon, he will end up leaving for a lot less. It is very clear which of the two clubs has the more sustainable model. The question now is whether United's is sustainable at all.

The United handed over to Moyes was like one of those old houses with a fresh coat of paint on it. It looks good from the outside, but when you start to look in depth at all the systems you realize you're in for a full refurbishment. That fresh coat of paint is covering rotten siding.

SAF may have done wonders with the paint in the last few years, but that's what it was. With that in mind it's not reasonable to think any new manager could come to United and continue the legacy without significant financial resources and the experience to spend them. Given the financial advantages all our major European rivals now have over us, together with the inherently more talented squads at their disposal, I just don't see us getting back into the race for a while. And, in my opinion, which may not be shared by the eds or the optimists, a sustained period of mediocrity could lead to some very rocky times unless the Glazers sell up, or raise equity in some other way. I can't see there being too many buyersat the current price given that a further 350m may need to be injected. It's surely so much easier to buy a cheaper club and then put the billion into the team rather than the other way round.

Sorry for the rant, but I hate what the Glazers have done to our club. They are the true rot at the heart of this experience.

Totally agree. As I have said on previous posts in the summer - this has always been the case. It's going to take us falling apart for most fans to wake up to it .

I don't disagree with you but I wouldn't go so far as to say we've not signed any great players in 8 years. RVP was a great signing.

Did he not break our transfer record buying berbatov and then spent close to that on rvp, and did Moyes not spend something similar on fellaini?
the money has obviously been there and I honestly do not believe that money has ever really been the deciding factor and it is kind of a cop out, rather than facing the real problems that effect our club, most of which were really hidden because we remained successful

Yeah our transfer record! Even tight arsenal spent over 40 mil on a player in the summer and still want more. Why? Because they know they have to to keep up. We don't want to never mind can't . 4 year gap between the first two and spent all the money available in the summer on a dud just to buy someone.

Liverpool supporter here. The post by dags is one of first realistic and less hysterical posts I've read here.

The Glazers acquired Man United for around £800m. It is now worth £2.2b. They built the business up, that entitles them to take what they want from their club. In that time they've spent a couple of hundred million on players with Fergie even saying they never once vetoed a transfer. They have also expanded Old Trafford and possibly will do again. Think of some club owners past and present, you're not bad off at all.

The recent troubles with your club isn't the lack of money spent on players it is the lack of quality you got for your money.

Unfortunately your club, can and will buy its way out of the mire, with or without Moyes. Hopefully not for a good while yet though :-).

Peashooter, excellent post. Especially the first paragraph. As I mentioned last night, city are owned by football fanatics who happen to be extremely wealthy.
We're owned by wealthy Americans who have no interest in football and will never do so. And they bought above their means, so they had to borrow substantially.
If we go through a rocky period and they sell up to someone who cares, then so be it.

Peashooter
I totally agree with our liverpool fan waver tree red be careful what you wish for.The clubs you mention are all abusing the financial fair play ruling you say City still have players who are holding their value what like Santa Cruz Lescot have done they can't unload their squad players due to massive wages unless they subsidise them, yes City are strong and we are in need of major investment but I believe the owners will back Moyes in the transfer windows to come this year.we must not panic buy accept our neighbours are ahead for the moment with quality and depth but they know if we stick together, support our great club and Moyes has a change of luck then we will be back it maybe 2 seasons and let's not take success for granted!

09 Jan 2014 10:24:08
Johny.
The Question, Do City Care?. and whom?. UEFA?. seriously?

08 Jan 2014 23:00:39
Anyway,
Redman can u see a European super league starting up in the next 10 years?

Just thought i'd change the conversation a bit :-)

I hope not! It would definitely only be affordable for the well off! Would cost a fortune especially away matches obviously. It would destroy football for me.

CTR

The changes needed to accommodate a summer 2022 World Cup may prompt discussions on a European league depending on how leagues respond. So from a threat at the moment the problems from the World Cup could trigger it and there would be a lot of money to be made. Since when have fans ever been considered
The Ed will know more

One thing is for sure, sponsors of champions league and all other European Leagues will not be happy if it overlaps. There are so many other implications further down also. Even if leagues continue, fans won't be happy if particular players are missing.
Fifa are a right royal f**k up for the last few decades imo. Blatter at the centre of it and his cronies.

08 Jan 2014 21:44:36
Would the anti-Moyes brigade tell me what would they intend happen if we appointed a new manager who was unable to bring in new players in this transfer window, continued to have extensive injuries to key players and the team failed to improve upon the present league position or noticeably improve the performances.

I'm guessing they'd panic and repeat the process.

Al

If we went for say Heynkes, on a temporary basis to the end of the season I would be surprised if he didn't have players willing to play for him. Top level coaches often do. Take a look at what Benitez did for Chelsea on a temporary basis and the fans were very unsupportive indeed, but he knew what it took to get them up there.

AJH

No change there then

08 Jan 2014 22:12:57
your rite we should leave Moyes where he is he's doing a great job! setting records all around him!!

Has to go

Not sure you actually answer the question

Al d red. Would you like to answer the question, what has moyes done in the past 4 months that has impressed you?

Nomid

Please re-read my original post, I have not said that he has impressed me (although I am pleased that he has given Adnan the chance to prove himself). I do recognise that he has had a catalogue of injuries to key players which has prevented him from playing his preferred team. My point is why do the vociferous anti-Moyes brigade (of which you are clearly one) think that by discarding him at this point will somehow guarantee an immediate improvement - particularly if the circumstances I outlined prevail.

Moyes is the main problem at the moment. He tactically inept. He has been reckless and thick headed in his decisions, ie butchering the backroom staff abandoning transfer targets and buying his prize donkey, giving Nani a FIVE YEAR contract. What has he ever done? He has won nothing. He is managing players who have won everything at the domestic level.
Look at him. Just look at his body language. Look at the players. Something is seriously wrong. When a team is strong and unified and believe in themselves and the management, they express this on the pitch. Disharmony and uncertainty. Fear. He is horribly, massively out of his depth. He has to go. I'm sorry, I'm all for giving someone a chance but it is clear. He is not upto the task at hand. He is not my chosen one. Is he anyone else's. I agree with some of you guys, Heynkes is a very good interim choice. He's done it all and is a very good tactician. Six years of David Moyes. Think about it. He can't turn this around.

08 Jan 2014 21:34:36
I am of the apparent minority that believes Moyes should be given time to turn things around at United. Some may call it blind faith, but I'd like to at least see him given a fair shot at developing his own squad over the course of more than 1 season.

I'm curious to hear from those who want Moyes out. What manager would you like to see take charge of United?

Also, do you believe there will be any significant business done in January? I, like most of you, hope that a couple of quality additions will be made, but the January window is never an ideal time to do business. But with the World Cup potentially further inflating players' prices in the summer, negotiations are always going to be difficult.

I expect maybe a couple of small signings by United, maybe deals similar to Smalling, Chicharito, Zaha, etc. I would love to be surprised with a big-name signing coming in, but it seems very unlikely. Koke would be a dream, but why on earth would he leave mid-way through a season where Atletico is challenging for the La Liga title, as well as the Champion's League?

The list of managers we could have had that are better than moyes is quite big.
Re the transfers, I would rather if we didn't buy any more smallings youngs andersons nanis and buy top quality as our competitors have. If we can't afford the top, then the youth must be given a chance.

Nomid

I think we can agree on the transfer strategy - we have enough 'squad' players and need top class imports and if not then give Powell, Lingard, Zaha etc a shot

08 Jan 2014 20:28:14
I have pondered why there is such desire from a few to give Moyes more time than he has earned. If this was at any of the really top clubs the white hankies would have been waved and he would have gone by now, so why the loyalty to someone who isn't even one of our own like say Hughes or Bruce?
The reason to me is that we have too much sentimentality towards individuals, leading to a decision based too much on the heart rather than the head. If we used logic then Moyes CV isn't good enough for United and already sooner than expected the cracks caused by that are wide open. Our club has long been synonymous with high emotion and that appears to have led to giving people a chance beyond the level other top clubs would allow. It is sentiment and that sentimentality gives others an edge over us.

Agreed as I said below any other top team would have got shot of him by now!!

I agree Red Man, we as united supporters have been spoilt by having Fergie for so long that we think it is the only way that logevity breeds success, if you look at it at the most basic level some managers work some don't and any amount of hope won't change that. Look at Pardew, the second longest serving manager at Newcastle at won nowt.

It's not sentimentality, it stems from a deeply engrained belief that 'United have to do things differently.' It's the same reason people spout things like 'United don't buy stars, they make them' or 'If you stay at United, the money will come in time' and so on.

We have had the luxury of having one world class manager for over 25 years. During the last two decades the world of football haas changed dramatically, but we had Fergie here providing stability. So United fans scoffed at Chelsea and City fans who expected immediate success, and (in Chelsea's case) sacked managers after a few months. Now that we have lost our constant, a significant number of United fans feel compelled to prove that they're not like those other fans, and will back the manager regardless of the mounting evidence that he simply isn't up to the task.

A think there is also an element of people thinking that if Moyes succeeds we will have another Fergie, and another twenty odd years of stability and success. However, a lot of us are wising up to the fact that there is something rotten in the club from top to bottom. The key for me is that Moyes was 'told' that he was the next manager of Manchester United. This played into supporters belief that we are special and the right man would be ecstatic to join us. The truth is that any top class manager could not be told that they were taking any job, the would have to be convinced. To convince a top manager you need to prove that the money and resources are there to compete at the top level. Fergie tried to convince Pep but Bayern offered a far better chance for success. The alternative was to plump for Moyes, a man who felt so lucky to be offered a top job that he didn't need to be convinced of anything.


Sorry about that, for a second I forgot that we all need to believe in Moyes and everything will be dandy.

Red Man

I agree we are different and operate different standards. However, I think the Glazers are detached from reality - SAF recommended DM therefore he must be good right? As I have stated before, no other business would have appointed someone who could not demonstrate a track record of success, relevant experience, or huge potential.

The 6 year contract suggests we are in this for the long haul whatever we think.

Because Moyes has only had half a season with a squad that most people will agree has been on the decline for a few years? Yes, United won the league last season, but saying that they were a dominant force would be some stretch. Yes United have badly underperformed this season, but they're still in the hunt for a Champion's League spot, as well as being in the competition itself. I don't believe that the manager is the reason for United's position in the table. Look at the squad and you'll find more than a few sub-par players who start matches regularly. Let Moyes have the summer window to clear out some of the deadwood and put his stamp on the squad. If things aren't going well this time next year, I would understand the cries for him to be sacked, but only half way into his first season replacing the most successful manager of all time?!? Come on.

" From a few to give Moyes more time than he has earned

I would think you are in the minority in your views mate and it has nothing to do with sentiment.

TBF I trust SAF and SBC, the board and people at the club and their football knowledge and it has nothing to do with sentiment but just common sense.

For people like yourself who think you can change 26 year in 6 months taking into account all the things that could go wrong have gone wrong with transfers, injuries etc etc, Ii just don't think it is even a sensible discussion and you are clouded by your initial opposition of the appointment.

08 Jan 2014 21:12:24
SAF asked us all to be patient and get behind the new manager. I bet we all thought that's exactly what we would do yet here we are 6 months in calling for his head. SAF saw enough in him to believe he would succeed. He would know better than any of us.
The decision was made, now he deserves some time and backing with some money to show he is up to the job.
If you believe a manager should get 6 months and if not going great get the sack then that is your opinion but it's not one I share. It is rare that works unless silly money is available to throw at it aswel. I will get behind him while he is here, and believe he will turn it around. He should get 2 years IMO

Danny,

Agree with pretty much all of that.

I hate our owners but they're not stupid and no doubt will have a number of plans om place for the summer. I believe DM wikk only be involved in the iterations of thr plan that include CL football. Annoying thing is even if we qualify for the CL we'll have to play qualifiers and therefore won't know our budget until late on in the August window.

{Ed002's Note - Why would you hate the owners Ben. They havegenerated enormous sums of money for the club and trebled the value of their business. Would you like to drive them out and have them sell on some Far Eastern stock exchange? Get some nice insurance companies running the business purely for profit. Or do you just "hate" because you are amodern day football fan and it is hip to do so?}

Ruud
There is a need to be decisive
GCU
If a thorough recruitment exercise had taken place and Moyes was the best candidate then I would have less of an argument. However there wasn't one and Moyes wasnt the best candidate. Actually no one I know thinks he was the right candidate, there is no basis to think he is other than SAF said so. To me SAF wanted to continue with stability for stability sake with a big all powerful manager and that is sentimentality. Non of the other big clubs do that so this alone puts us behind them in structure and the ability to change in future.

Ed002 I hate the owners because they saddled the club with debt by mortgaging it to the hilt and have constantly hiked ticket prices for us to pay back their debt. Granted they are good opportunistic business men but I don't have to like them and that doesn't make me a "modern fan" or anything else you want to call me.
I appreciate you're "in the know" and many on here appreciate your input, but no offense you really remind me of Roy Keane. I fully expect to be censored if you don't like the RK comparison.

{Ed002's Note - It is their debt on their asset. Do you have even the slightest understanding of what will happen with institutional owners? Would you like a nice sugar-daddy owner like Thaksin Shinawatra? How about Sheikh Al Thani? Or Sulaiman Al Fahim? Ken Bates has money in his pockets and is wandering the streets looking for work - would he do if he could raise a nice little loan on the club?

Additionally, I have beautiful copper coloured curly hair and look nothing lke Roy Keane - and you should know that from the photographs.}

Ed002 maybe over £600million lost forever servicing the debt is the reason there hated, or the fact they borrowed the money to buy the club, or the fact that us fans are forced into the automatic cup scheme every season with no say in it, don't pay for the cup games and you lose your season ticket .other than that there all great guys :)

{Ed002's Note - See my previous answer John. The point is that the options are really ugly.}

RedMan

Many clubs go straight to an appointment after doing their discussions behind the scenes. Whilst some will have a beauty contest and interview a few, some will go with one candidate if internally the belief is he is the best and no need to look at other.

There is obviously something DM has that convinced them to go this way. BTW whilst everyone says SAF did this on his own, David Gill was still there and no way this would have happened if it did not have the backing of Gill and SBC and others.

To try and paint it like one man's doing is completely misrepresenting the facts and it is a collective group of wise men at the club who made the appointment including the owners.

Using common sense, the owners are not who and what they are for being passive and docile or some village id. ts that are yes men to anyone including SAF, it is their asset.

Real, Chelsea, City all did it and the whole thing start to finish was very much the same as us.

08 Jan 2014 20:24:26
I like Valencia, great attitude, good worker and on his day unplayable. I remember a few years ago when ashley cole was in his prime and Valencia made him look dreadful.
Trouble is now he can't cross for s**t. What's happened?
A few years ago when Rooney got all those headers they were nearly always from his crosses. He found his man nearly every time, and if he couldn't find someone he would fire it across the box. It seems now he fires it across the box most of the time or hits the defender.
He is otherwise playing well, just hope he gets back to the player he was 2 or 3 years ago because he definately still has it in him.

08 Jan 2014 19:15:27
Cant believe all the people who just blindly think that because you back the management ( and at the same time tell us all that we should do the same) that the team will start to play well and find some form!
Its amazing how much rubbish people put up with, it really is! and if he was the manager of any other top club he would be gone by now!

Also to all these blind followers I would like to ask this question "show me one piece of evidence to support the notion that moyes will come good "(and no blind faith doesn't count)

Nice one roonbest, you just cost us the game against Swansea. We were are believing so hard, and then you spoil it by being negative.

Roonbest

Something I have been saying for some time

What I can't believe is that everyone is still blind to the fact the owners will not be giving any manager the amount of money needed to add the players needed. We create enough money to compete with anyone in the world but spend on the same as villa and the like.

Sorry Danny I will try and get some info on staying positive and also get in touch with my inner positive energy! Lol or else maybe they should rearrange the boxes and seats and all the other stuff at old Trafford to fit in with feng sua( or how ever it is spelt), I think this could definitely lead to some positive performances;)

Because I would rather let Moyes have time to shape the squad than bring another manager in half way through the season? The squad is lacking in more than a couple areas. Also, sacking Moyes and hiring a new manager would cost United a decent amount of money as well?

Pancho

As I've said before, IMO, that's the main reason why nobody else was considered for the role.

Any world-class, proven manager would have wanted assurances of how much money he could spend to rectify our problems on the field.

Moyes would have had no questions, it would've just been a case of "thank you for this great opportunity, where do I sign".

I have thought that too when he was first appointed. Another top manager would have wanted to spend a lot straight away! I am not saying I want us to be taken over by some rich oil lot. I am just still baffled how the majority of fans are blind to our financial situation and actually think we are going to spend 200m! We could if we were not owned by someone who did not want to just take all the money and throw a bit of loose change bank into the club . We have spent less than any other top club in Europe since they took over. We have also spent less than such clubs as villa . This could be seen coming 3 years ago .

Pancho. You 'dont want us to be taken over by some rich oil lot'! And why not? Is it because they've done crap jobs at city, psg and Monaco??
Or do u prefer to stick with the glazers as we have a special relationship. We give and they take!!

Don't worry Danny, i'm still believing, honest!!

See my answers above! I hate the glazers well before now . I don't want just any rich people or companies owning us . As I said ideally we could be run like barca and B. Munich but it probably won't happen so the only alternative to the glazers would be some oil gang. I don't want our club being owned because it's trendy either.

{Ed002's Note - There is zero chance of the fans owning the club.}

Unfortunately your right - no chance now - but I can still dream about it

08 Jan 2014 18:41:50
Been reading the site now for 2 years and decided to register and post, so take it easy please.
I have got to say that I never wanted Moyes in the first place due to his inexperience of a big club and the fact he had won so little. I also now do not particularly like him now for a number of reason's including his defeatism, his lack of tactical knowledge, his apparent rubbish training methods, the unbelievable things his says in press conferences and interviews, his negative tactics and just his general representation of our great club. Now what bugs me on here is that people are being accused of not being real fans just because they have an opinion of him, I hate Moyes for what he is doing to our club and personally want to see him sacked but that does in no way affect the love I have for the club which I have supported from my earliest memories til the day I take my last breath. I live in Ireland now but was born and raised in Manchester, in a family who all passionately support united.
So the point of my rant is that just because people want Moyes gone does not make them any worse or better supporter than somebody who likes Moyes. United is like a family and like the old saying goes you can choose you friends but you can't choose your family, I do not choose Moyes! End of rant.

Couldn't have said it better myself!
apparently the people who will blindly support the club no matter what are the only "real fans "

Stalyvegas

Well said

We are all fans and have the right to our opinions. If we all agreed the site would be boring.
I believe Moyes will turn it around given time and will support him until he does.And I believe too many are on his back too soon.
Doesn't make me a better or worse fan than you though.

Top post mate

All the evidence shows that clubs who get rid of managers quickly do badly. Managers who are given time, eg SAF do well.

{Ed002's Note - Chelsea?}

Thanks Ed, I quoted what Chelsea had done in recent years earlier. They were decisive and then won the big prizes.

{Ed002's Note - Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. A couple of managers were removed by an advisor to the club rather than the club itself. A couple were no more than temporary.}

Chelsea have under achieved with the amount they have spent and they have not done well whilst changing managers post Jose, lucky in the champions league before you say they won that with a one year manager I would hate for us to change managers every season and I also think Moyes will win plenty of silver ware over a long period of time, the people who are throwing there dummys out just because were not top winning every game, telling us we are blind who think he can do it are in fact and fickle fake supports themselves, more like children than adults which I would not be shocked to find out they are either children or have serious personality disorders lol

Thats my point will red, everyone is entitled to their opinion for or against Moyes, my gripe was people saying that this person or that person is not a proper supporter because of what they think.

Ed002, Chelsea may be the exception that proves the rule. However, given the huge amount of money they have spent on players and managers many may think they should have done better.

{Ed002's Note - Inter Milan, Real Madrid ... - You are clutcing at non existant straws.}

Katef

I have been following since 1968 and in my opinion some people don't realise the danger we are in. Liverpool supporters in 1990 thought it would never end and have had over 20 years almost in the wilderness league wise because of it. Those who imagine it will all come right for us just by giving Moyes more time are guessing and playing with the successful future of the club. They may also not remember us in the 70's and 80's.

Ed
I agree with you and would rather have stability but not for stability's sake

Thanks Katf you proved my point without me having to point anyone of my ten fingers.

{Ed002's Note - A MUFC fan and only 10 fingers?}

Redman
I remember the eighties, and was as big a fan then as I am now. What if we get another manager now and we finish 8th? Sack him aswell? that's not the road we should go down IMO.
I agree stalyvegas. We are all fans and all want the same thing in the end, success.

Will red

Get an experienced manager in temporarily to the end of the season e.g Heynkes and then conduct a proper recruitment exercise. That new permanent manager should have the necessary experience and should then be afforded time and money to get it right. I look back to Sexton in 77 and whilst I feel there are similarities to him in Moyes, even Sexton had won something previously but we knew early on he didn't have the right attributes. I look back to the day Edwards went up to get SAF and remember the list of achievements and that isn't there with Moyes

It's alright all you Moyes haters calling for his head but say they sack him, then what?.Who is going to come in with this squad of players and the apparent inability to buy top quality replacements?.Names please and realistic names only?

Redman
I think whoever is in charge needs backing with some big money. Moyes or whoever else won't stand a chance without that.
He has to get players in this window to give himself a chance, and he does need to win something as soon as possible, with some backing and his own signings I believe he can and more importantly SAF believes he can.
Once he wins 1 trophy who knows what can happen. He was given the job, now deserves a bit of time.

The days of the long term managers are a thing of the past, fergie and wenger will be the last top class managers you will see at one club for so long.look at all the top clubs in europe and even if the managers are successful its unusual for any one to stay longer than 2-3 years, that is now the norm forget fergie s 25 years and wengers term you will never see the likes of that again

John, I mentioned that a few months ago and I agree with you. The world is moving fast these days and changing even faster. No one will stay in the job like fergie did. These days are gone.

Im not saying he will be here for 25 years. But there is a huge difference between sacking after 6 months and 26 years same manager. Somewhere in the middle maybe?

08 Jan 2014 18:39:50
A wish people would get of moseys back. He has been the manager for 2mins! people question his coaching, tactics, blah blah. He is a great manager who hasn't had a fair crack at all, we have changed everything at the club coaching staff to replacing David gill! the summer was shambles but he tried! this was always going to be hard but he will get it right!he just needs the backing to put his stamp on the team, there will be no signings this transfer window dew to players we want to sign are key to there current squads. Sometimes you need to take a step back To go forward

So, just for clarity, what is it he has done that makes him a great Manager? I'm struggling to think of anything

On what basis do you define our present manager as "great"? Is this on the basis of his list of achievements?

So AJH, red man,
Should we sack moyes bring in a new manager and if that doesn't work sack him aswel.? Where not Chelsea, we need to give him all the support our team deserves. He shouldn't be judge now. Let him bring some people in and have is own stamp on the team, except SAF who could get the best out of our midfield.? We all no the problems with our side, I believe moyes will turn things around,

Chill, I was merely asking how you have decided he is great when he has never won a trophy. I'm at a loss as to what to do, I think it was a misguided ill judged appointment but it looks like we are stuck with him. However, let's not decide he is great when the evidence suggests anything but.

Marmite

On what basis do you believe Moyes can do that? A guess! A guess on a £400m turnover business worth £1.5Bn is not going to be popular with owners or shareholders.
I would sack him now and get an interim like Heynkes until the end of the season, then conduct a proper recruitment exercise to determine the best candidate.

08 Jan 2014 17:12:19
Away from Moyes. It will be interesting to see how OGS does at Cardiff. He has bought Eikrem and is in the process of bringing in matts Dhaeli from Norway.
I wish him all the best, I think he will then out to be a very good manager. As he was very astute even when he was playing.

Good luck to him.
It's nice to think he will do well and end up back with us one day,
but he has a long way to go and it will be hard with that chairman

08 Jan 2014 16:58:39
Peashooter Rafael's contract runs to 2016, Rooney 2015.
Elbow your earlier post on our players in their prime is spot on
Danny Pug How dare you not believe enough? I believe I can fly but the monoblock beneath my bedroom window keeps reminding me PAINFULLY I need to believe more.

As somebody who wanted Moyes as our next manager I admit to being disappointed by a few things and defending him on a few others. The whole summer debacle including Fellaini was a disgrace. I don't believe Moyes had to much influence on the finances. I believe Moyes really did want to give the whole team a chance.

I mentioned earlier in the season, we were not playing as a team, that seemed to improve a couple of games before the Arsenal game. Not sure if its injuries, low confidence or any other excuse you can think of but we have lost the team spirit again and the buck stops at Moyes.

After having a good look at the team it should have been obvious, way before now, what and who were needed. I find it hard to fathom how we did not know who was and was not available in this window in December. In any business you plan ahead. I have no idea who does the planning at Man U but let's guess Woodward, Moyes should have been chewing his ear off about what we need for over a month now.

I hate lame excuses at anything if you get beat, I'm no stranger to it, hold your hands up and say I/we were not good enough. This "we did not do much wrong" is asinine and weak.

Teams are asking too much or no value in the market? Who are we to dictate how much a player is worth? We will not panic buy FFS panic but buy the best you can. I again have no idea how much we are prepared to spend nor do I have any idea of how much control Moyes has on who and how much we spend on any given target. I do know if we do not buy this window it will not improve much on the field and we will certainly suffer financially.

Yes Moyes has to buy this January.
If he goes through 2 windows only buying 1 player then he can have no excuses.
He has to make it happen one way or another. Get the best available.
I BELIEVE he will buy 2.

08 Jan 2014 16:07:43
This may seem like a stupid idea to some, but surely it's time to let our youth come in?

We are so mediocre on the pitch and it's quite surprising how bad we can play when some of our main men our out. So surely it should be time to let a few more youngsters come in and show us what they have to offer, look at Januzaj for instance.

The likes of Michael Keane, Zaha, Lingard and Powell should be given some chances once back from loan or as it stands for Zaha, now! Yes some of these youngsters aren't physically ready for the premier league or may not show the skill required for it, but what have we got to lose? I would love to see some more faith put into these 4 lads as I think all of them are ready to make the step up. Obviously I don't actually know if they're ready but they are currently cutting it in the championship, so surely it's time?

I hope we see some of these guys appear in the team in the coming months.

On our current situation I would like to see this line up for Swansea: De Gea, Rafael, Smalling, Evans, Evra, Carrick, Fletcher, Zaha, Rooney/Kagawa, Januzaj, Hernandez

If Rooney isn't fit then I don't think we should risk him. But this line up has quite of a pacey attack with a solid midfield with Fletcher and Carrick. I prefer Jones and Evans but Smalling can still put in a good shift, also isn't Evans injured?

I just hope Moyes can sort this issue with the players current confidence, we are quite lucky in a way that the last two we lost weren't league games as I still think finishing top 4 should be our main target.

Also could one of the Ed's or anyone else inform me once RVP returns? We have missed his goals a lot.

As said earlier in the season by StevieK I believe? "Hold on lads, this is going to be a bumpy ride"

Totally agree with saying the youth! Would love Lingard, Zaha and Powell be given a chance like adnan has! Surely they couldn't do any worse than our current side!

Weggy, mate, if you're going to quote my words of wisdom, get it right.

It was, 'hang on and enjoy the ride'. :)

Bottom line is team has needed rebuilding for several years and the lack of investment in the first team is now showing (and Fergie must take some of the blame for this). This is the reason why a player with such little ability as Cleverley is in our midfield. can't tackle, can't pass, can't create, can't head. Just looking at this guy in a Utd shirt fills me with pain and suffering.

Im ever so sorry, StevieK! I haven't got the best of memory! ;)

102dump - I agree, Cleverley shouldn't be starting every week for us, but unfortunately he is still a United player and we need to support him, he would always be a useful squad player to fill in, but not starting.

08 Jan 2014 15:05:04
I read this morning that Rafael is out of contract at the end of the year, in which case we will lose him for nothing. Is this potentially correct?

With a similar situation for Rooney, where on earth is the quality in the existing squad around which to build a resurgence? On recent performances one has to say it does not exist and that the rebuilding job will be massive. Success is self-sustaining - good players want to play for good managers and clubs - but so is failure. Fellow fans, we may well be headed towards the cellar of the premier league. An extended stay there is not, in my opinion, something the current capital structure can support. Draw your own conclusions.

His contracts ends 30.6.2016

Rafael is not out of contract at the end of this season. His contract will end during the 2015/16 season.

He signed a 4 year contract in 2012, so it runs out in 2016, Fabio's runs out this year and he will leave imo.

08 Jan 2014 13:59:17
hi ed's guys, I was thinking if we get gundogan or vidal etc etc. I don't think it will make us better, do u think they will enjoy moyes training session, sorry guys but moyes needs to change his methods, if not then we are finished.he is a longball type of a manager, and do u guys honestly think the players like tevez vidal gundogan cr7 or any other starplayers will want to have everton training sessions with moyes, no they wont.either moyes change's his ways, if not then he should leave, I hope he can change his ways, feel sorry for him but he won't change, and do u think he will win the league if he is going to stay for six years, he won't.banter ed's, have a nice day:) thenew52

People need to get the idea out of their heads that Moyes 'plays a longball game' it's utter rubbish and if you watched every single match you'll realise it just isn't true.

It's as simple as we need new higher quality players to take over from our average/ageing players in the squad. This is Manchester United and we will always remain an attractive club for other players to move to no matter where we finish in the table. Liverpool as an example have a few great young talents and they haven't finished near the top of the table for a while.

08 Jan 2014 14:34:11
As I stated previously, Its 50-50, players also have to take the share of blame. Most of the players have been here from quiet a long time and they cannot be defended or excused.
Moyes surprises me with his selection. substituions and also the tactical changes which afffect the games.
Players on the other hand looks disinterested (Not sure they have the same mentality when recieving their Pay cheaque)
We can all argue and defend ourself on the Injury List, But beating Sunderland or Swansea, I don't think you need world class stars availble (No Disrespect to both teams)
This was the match we should have won quiet comfortbality, If we were the Champions of England.

Ozwald,

I agree with you 100%. Its fashionable to talk sh. t at the moment and half of them can't even explain it if you asked them. Long ball is generally a result of CB having no one to pass to as midfielders are sucking on their toes somewhere on the pitch and wingers being lazy to make themselves available.

08 Jan 2014 15:08:33
GCU.

You said about wingers. What was Valencia doing yesterday. Looked like a headless chicken. I thought he wasnt pasrt of the first 11 and was warming down near the side line.

08 Jan 2014 15:14:38
GCU.

Long ball is generally a result of CB having no one to pass to as midfielders
Not Always. Stoke, Westham etc. there are teams who plays long balls. to utilize the vulnerability of the opositons ariel ability, Moreover Long balls are used If you striker"s biggest strenth is holding up the ball and height.
Sam Alladyrce would defo disgree to your view.
But spot on. We played long balls coz, our midfielders were pretty useless.

Attitude

Valencia did nothing yesterday and same with a lot of other players. You know how poor some of these guys are when no body is in for them or if they are the fee would be embarrassing for us given what we paid for some of them.

Janusaj was excellent but I prefer we do not play him this weekend as I do not like how much we are using him for the lack of quality in the side as a short term solution but maybe a detriment o the boy longterm.

Shahram, if Moyes is overusing Adnan it's not due to lack of quality, but lack of fit players being available to him. If Nani, RvP, Rooney & Young were fighting fit, I wouldn't expect to see as much of him. Perhaps 20-30 minutes in most games. People say Valencia does very little, but it's when Valencia is substituted that we struggle to create afterwards. I would like to see Valencia and Rafael get a good run of games together with strikers that can get on the end of his crosses. We are struggling without Rooney and Rvp, especially RvP.

08 Jan 2014 13:31:10
Well said GDS

08 Jan 2014 12:41:40
Well done to Thomas Hitzlsperger today, looking forward to a day when this isn't news!

08 Jan 2014 14:38:43
Well said GDS, Thomas has taken a very brave decision and he should be applauded for his courage. Like you said this shouldn't be news worthy, and I can wait for the day it isn't.

Here here, sick of people going on about it tbh. Why should anyone have to go to the media to say they are gay? Who's business is it except the person(s) involved? I couldn't give a sh*t if someone is straight, gay, bi or whatever. As long as they are a good person, what their sexual preferences are is irrelevant to anything/anyone else. It's the rapists, murderers, paedophiles etc I'm bothered about and we need to know about, not a decent guy who happens to like other guys.

Brendan,

Unfortunately as short as 10 years ago it was not quite as 'out there' as it is now and it was seen as something that people should not be. This means that our generation have got used to it and realised being gay has as much to do with anything as the colour of your skin.

Unfortunately there are other people / generations who still have the same opinions towards gay people, meaning it is a brave decision for anybody to 'come out' in the public domain.

It will only take a few, maybe an English footballer, to do it and then it will become common and nobody will care. A WWE wrestler, Darren Young recently came out and also Tom Daley and both have seen a positive reaction and public support that definitely would not have happened a decade ago.

08 Jan 2014 12:34:19
I keep reading give Moyes time, give him 2 years as if time in the job is the answer to all issues. The argument goes that it worked with SAF so we are being led to believe it will happen with Moyes. However SAF had already aptly demonstrated the skills and won well but Moyes hasn't.
Whether it be six months or two years he will already have demonstrated the attributes he has. We knew early on that Dave Sexton, god rest his soul, couldn't hack it despite already being a winner, yet United gave him 4 years from 1977 and he still couldn't do it. Time doesn't work if you don't have the ability., have we not learned from that?
Compare this to Chelsea, Scolari struggled, gone, Hiddink quickly gained command won the FA Cup, AVB, gone, Di Mateo, won the big one, didn't hack it next season so, gone, Benitez won something and got top three. No sentiment no dithering, the club and it's success came first. Chelsea have achieved at the same time we preached stability but now it suits us to cry loudly about it. In fact Moyes in what sounds like desperation is almost appealing for it. So given time on its own isn't the answer it is cracked up to be the question is, are the owners now dithering over dithering Dave?

The right words are consistency and continuation.

I think David moyes needs to build his own team.

but more so than anything else, for the united fans who are thinking the dominant years are back, i'm sad to say those years are most likely forever gone.

too many teams playing at the highest level to have a dominant team, too many changes in management, in personnel, that any sort of consistency and continuity to reap.

one bad year and you guys are calling for his head. just goes to show who the real fans are.

REDMAN

You can do a Chelsea thing when you have an owner who changes managers and in the meantime throws a lot of money in constantly for each new manager.

I guess it is quite clear that as you say you will not be braw beaten into supporting DM and there is a group of you guys who have the rope ready and want the mob to join in.

Then there is a group me included that believes we are far from going out in the streets and starting riots and can take the setbacks a lot better than some of you guys.

We shall see over the next 18 months which is what I suspect is the minimum who is right or wrong.

I was going to respond to Danny's post down below but have this picture in my head and have to laugh TBH.

You announcing the sentence, Danny puts the hood on, Nomidfield reads him his last rites and Treble 99 and few other have an argument about who pulls the lever :)

Enjoy the Swansea game and wager some money on us winning if you want to have additional levels of excitement :) I would go for 3-1 or 4-1. so take the over on 3.5 and us winning as a minimum

08 Jan 2014 14:36:36
GCU.

Honeslty I see us getting a hard fought Draw at the weekend, If we fail to score in the first half. Then certian to be a draw.

Trust me we will score 3 maybe 4.

So you think we're going to score 3or4 against Swansea? Let's see. Even if we did, let's not forget we've already lost too many games, and a win against Swansea should not paper over the cracks.
Lakerville, so because we want to see a good, successful, entertaining united side, and because we're getting rubbish, losers, boring united side, then when we make our point, nthen that makes us bad supporters? Wow, so let's stay as we are and we keep supporting a rubbish manager. Are these really the views you have, are you happy for our club and team to sink to this level? I would argue that you are the poor supporters for being so acceptable of mediocrity. It is the worst form of ambition. If you don't strive to be the best, if you don't give you're best, then you're heading for a fall. That applies to the manager, the team, the owners, the supporters.
So be careful what you ask for, as if the current downward spiral is allowed to carry on at this alarming rate, then you will be supporting a team with no ambition. And that is not the United way. We've always prided ourselves on modern systems, promoting youth when no one was doing it, conquering Europe when the other English teams didn't have the courage to do it.
I have supported them through thick and thin since the late 60's, so please don't tell us who is real supporter and who is not.
I have every respect for everyone's views.

Nomid

"So you think we're going to score 3or4 against Swansea? Let's see. Even if we did, let's not forget we've already lost too many games"

Can't do anything about what has already happened mate and can only look forward.

GCU
If you only look forward then you ignore the lessons of the past. History shows us Liverpool, Forrest, Leeds all great clubs came to the end of an era and lost their position. 18 further months of a totally inexperienced manager could take us to mediocrity, and we have already seen what six months has done.

08 Jan 2014 11:00:22
15m plus kagawa for gundogan
40m plus nani for vidal
10-15m for ribiero
15m for coentrao
Sell Anderson and cleverly for 20m combined
Net spend of 65m to have the best midfield pairing in the world, a quality successor to evra and an extremely skilful, possible top quality, yet still unproven, attacking Braziliam winger.
Ok, 3 of the 4 are cup tied, but next years CL must be the priority. I think all 4 deals would be doable and would provide impetus for the club

Coentrao has not actually played in the Champions League for Real this season and so would be eligible - hence why I think we will sign him in January. The fact that he hasn't even made a substitute appearance makes me think Real always knew they would offload him in January and as such I think it's just a matter of us agreeing a fee.

Vidal would also be eligible as Juventus are out of the Champions League. If we were to sign just one player this window I pray it's him. If we sign two - him and Coentrao would really help the team.

Ribeiro would of course be eligible for the Champions League although I think we may struggle to secure a work permit for him as he is yet to feature for the Brazilian national team.

I can't see Gundogan moving in January. Most probably he will depart in the summer - but I see him replacing Alonso at RM. He'd cost a lot more than £15m and Kagawa too if we were to sign him this month.

And who in their right mind would pay £20 million for Anderson and Cleverley?.

08 Jan 2014 10:30:16
He hasn't turned into a bad manager overnight. Last season he finished above liverpool despite all the money they spent.
Its a massive job and was always going to be, apart from a few backroom staff and fellaini everybody at the club was hired by SAF. The change was always going to be difficult whether we like it or not, but what we musn't do is start sacking managers every 6 months. If we go down that path we are doomed.
He deserves 2 years and hopefully then we will be seeing strong signs of improvements, if not then maybe it is time to look at another manager.
Until that time he has my full support, once he makes signings it will get better.

08 Jan 2014 11:09:26
I am not sure on this. But We play very poor these days. nothing to do with his transfers.

Of course it has something to do with transfers. All the players that are playing were bought by another manager. Some won't know whether moyes believes in them and i'm sure some players don't totally believe in him.
He needs 3 or 4 of his own signings in the team at least before he can be properly judged.

I agree completely with Will Red's post. Implementing organisational change on this scale is a massive task and it takes time for everyone to buy into the new culture. Moyes needs to be given time to build his vision. I'd be very disappointed if we started chopping and changing managers after a few months like some other teams seem to do.
Of course it's difficult to watch the team we love going through this process but it was always going to be a difficult transition after so many years with SAF leading United.
Patience is a virtue many seem to have misplaced at the moment.

08 Jan 2014 12:51:17
Will Red.
He ahd all the summer to sign the players he want. What did he do.?. 25. 26. 28 and there you go 40 mill for Fellaini. and we are after baines. whose a great player. but at the age of 29?. and with Everton looking at 25mil +?

No he hasn't turned into a bad manager overnight. it took him 12 years at Everton where he won nowt and 6 months with us where he will win nowt

Where on earth did you get a figure of £40M from? If the facts don't fit, change them eh?

Fellaini wasn't 40 million was he. Baines would have helped us a great deal, because of the silly money been asked for a left back of that age that is probably why we won't get him.
Moyes went for better midfield options 1st in the summer and its probably woodward to blame for not delivering. We got fellaini last minute as we were desperate, he was overpriced and it hasn't worked out yet but he will get better with the right partner.
Moyes knows where we need to improve as it shows with players we've been after.
It will take time. Its a massive job for him/for anyone but we will improve.

08 Jan 2014 14:44:23
Fellaini cost us 30 mill and with a 5 year contract. I am not sure the figure it would fetch.
baines is 29, a Superb LB would give us another 2 seaosns at Best and would fade like Evra or Cole, It would be stuppid to spend anything more than 20 mill on a vetran.
Moyes had time,, Infact plenty of time to access the squad, A good manager could easily predicts the physical health of a player

Fellaini should never have been bought, period.
The fact that moyes bought him and paid £27.5m for him is worrying in the extreme. He then tried him in several positions, all of which didn't seem to suit. You would think that moyes will know Fellaini's best position?

Fellaini hasn't been good, far from it. But he will improve when fit and given s run with the right partner. He wasnt my choice but we were desperate. It hasn't worked out up to now I admit.
Attitude, I agree the silly money asked for baines isn't worth paying because of his sge, shame because he would be great for us.
A bit baffled by 'a good manager easily predicts the physical health of a player' though. He should have predicted the injuries?

I agree Fellaini shouldn't have been bought, his best position is just behind the striker where he can cause chaos.However Moyes bought him as a DM where he is not suited even though he himself claims it to be his favourite position.To get the best out of him would mean playing Rooney elsewhere which is not a good idea.We have not seen him anywhere near his best though, even as a DM.

08 Jan 2014 10:13:54
A few things from last nights game.

First off why were we camped in our own half for nearly all the game, even when we had possession we never looked to go forward. The team looks totally devoid of confidence.

What has happened to Rafael? He was so good last season an yet this season he has played like the Rafael of 3/4 years ago. Granted he has had a few injuries this year and that can make it hard ti gain momentum but he has been rash and all over the place. Maybe having Fabio leave at the end of the season will help Rafael get his form back as he seems to suffer when his brother is about. Either way we at the very least need to bring in or through the academy a natural RB to provide competiton and cover for Rafael.

Since Carricks return we have lost every game, I know he may be our best midfielder but he does slow our play down and him dropping deep invites pressure onto our team. Maybe he needs to be phased out.

But the biggest issue I saw last night was the close up shot of Moyes after we went 2-1 down. He looked bemused, defeated and abit like he wanted to cry. He certainly didn't look up for the fight, there was no fire in his belly, a glint in his eye or even a change in his expression. He looked accepting of the situation, like he expected it.

That is not good enough, the fighting spirit of our club has always come from the manager, and Moyes doesn't look like a fighter atm. And that is why I have now moved from the "he needs time" camp over to the "he needs to be replaced" camp. And it pains me to say it as I am an optimist, and I want Moyes to succeed, but without that never say die attitude he is always destined to fail at our club.

See, I think he CAN succeed (as I said the day after he was appointed), but ONLY if he is given money to sort out our on-field problems.

And that's a lot of money. And I don't think our owners want to spend that money, which is why they were happy with SAF's suggestion of Moyes.

Which puts us in a terrible position. I think the owners, like the fans, never saw things getting this bad but now they're in a real tight spot - they either back him, or sack him.

08 Jan 2014 10:49:17
Because you don't think he had the look in his eye of a fighter he needs to be replaced?
Sorry I don't agree with that, he is without doubt a fighter. Things are bad at the moment clearly, everything is going against us but its football and things change and will turn around. Without his own signings he doesn't stand a chance, once he gets a few in we will improve.
He should be given 2 years with our full support then we should be seeing signs of improvement.

I think you mentioned the key word in your 1st sentence. Confidence, or at least lack of it. United players are not used to this, and don't know how to deal with it or how to respond. The manager is struggling to have any impact, and the players seem to be looking at each other for solutions. Their confidence is absolutely shot. There is no doubt we need a few quality additions, but the players we have are better than this. We have over achieved with this squad in recent seasons, while most of our rivals have under achieved. There is no doubt we are struggling with injuries, but all teams do at times. We just have to get behind the manager and the team and hope they can play through this bad form and regain some confidence.

This is a bad time to be a United fan, but we WILL get through it. Whether you like him or not, Moyes is not a bad manager, and we are not the crap team that many will have you believe. We are on our knees at the moment and are as low as we can go. Things can only get better, and will get better. Being a United supporter is about loving the Club, its history and tradition. About supporting the team on the pitch and off it, and aspiring to be the best. There will be good times, there will also be bad times.

Get behind the team, and the good times will return. Believe!

It's amazing how some of our most important players last season have become run down and actually a hinderance. Carrick doesn't look the same, Ferdinand and Evra have totally gone, Vidic looks a weak link and RVP hasn't looked anywhere near the same player either. Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra will all be gone by summer and I think Carrick and RVP only have a maximum of two more season each.

08 Jan 2014 06:51:10
I am totally shocked as to how quick things have gone wrong since fergie retired.
moyes is destroying our great club.He changed all the coaching staff and brought in inexperienced staff, panic bought Fallani last seconds on deadline day and now he's had three month to decide who he needs and still nothing.
The man is simply not up to this job, he's ave and that's all

09 May 2013 13:37:37
My personal favorite to replace SAF is Roberto Martinez. Yeah he manages Wigan but I believe with top class players he will do great.

Anyway looks likely that he will manage Everton. Maybe it will give an idea of how he performs with better players.


fan_of_Carrick


This was my earlier post. But now Moyes is our manager and we can't do anything about it. We can at the least support our manager and club and give him time to succeed. Let him buy his targets and then evaluate how we are playing.
You never know Martinez might not be able to finish the same way in the coming season. So I might be wrong in my earlier suggestion.
Also, when you look at Liverpool, BR didn't won many matches in his first season and finished many points behind us. But now he has got couple of his targets(coutinho, sturridge) and you can see the difference. Remember there were some failures too like Borini and aspas.
Patience is all we need.

Not up to the job or not getting the finance to strengthen the team? Surely if the club keeps dropping points and players keep playing like their in the conference league. Then something got to give

How worse can it be for DM? And what's the worst that can happen if he does burst out the words that money ain't been made available

08 Jan 2014 08:21:01
Its more 50-50. We are playing poor, and moyes ain't getting any solution.

Fan of carrick. borini a failure, didn't he bang one in past you lot last night. He's getting some valuable game time before hopefully coming back. Do all failures score against you!

It was a penalty he scored hardly difficult! Yeah I hope he hoes back to you too to replace goofy when he goes to Madrid!

08 Jan 2014 01:24:56
To any so called fans slating David Moyes try getting behind the guy like the 5000 real fans did who travelled up tonight. Sir Alex had 3 henerations of players in the squad, experience, youth and prime players. The experienced players are now 31-35, vidic, evra, rio, carrick etc and are coming to the end of their careers. The young lads, jones, rafa, smalling, wellbeck, januzaj, ddg, zaha, these are the future and most are just not quite ready yet to produce reliably consistent performances. The problem Sir Alex has left Moyes in my opinion is the linking generation between youth and experience. These players are supposed to be in the prime of their career, producing the goods week in week out and with the exception of Roo and Rvp the rest are not up to the task. Kagawa, Anderson, Valencia, Ashley Young, Nani. over 80 million was spent by Sir Alex on these guys who are all now in the prime of their careers yet none can be relied upon to produce the goods. This is the reason United are now struggling, these are the players United must replace. I don't worry about the future as the next generation and the generation coming through after that look very good.the problem is the current generation, our 25-29 year olds, are simply not good enough.and that is not David Moyes' fault.

Well said elbow.

Can't make away games myself due to work, a few mates went along.

The traveling reds did us proud last night as they always do.

Elbow55 has just wrote the most honest post about your clubs decline . as an outsider [ liverpool fan ] I can tell you we have been where your are now but if your club has more fans like elbow 55 I would say you will be ok. there is one thing I am wondering about is if you had all that money to be spent why threaten to spend it and never actually spend it . maybe I am wrong but if I was a united fan I would be worried about that .

08 Jan 2014 00:38:03
It has to be the last time chance for Cleverley. The poorest performance of a United player I can remember. I don't like to pick on individuals but it was a stand out poor performance.
Hopefully he can go on and have a good career at another club. It has to be Fletcher and Carrick for this season.

I agree cleverley has to go and I think carrick is well overrated possibley one of the slowest thinking midfielders in the league

I cannot understand Moyes playing Cleverly for most of the games, when he has been so poor. Ando is a no.10 that we have tried to convert to a midfielder and it hasn't worked. But at least he's good going forward and can create things. Cleverly offers us nothing in either direction.

08 Jan 2014 08:28:32
I agree, Anderson wouldn't do much worse than Cleverly.

07 Jan 2014 23:56:01
Moyes out. I said if give him six months to get settled, but the team keeps getting worse. Before you start yelling about Ferguson being given more time, Ferguson didn't inherit the champions of Europe and turn them into a mid table team. It was a terrible hire, and just another of fergies horrible mistakes in the last few years of his reign. What's the difference between last years champions and this years chumps? David moyes.

Moyes didn't inherit the champions of europe either, give the bloke a rest he's a living legend.

Champions of europe?.What are you talkin about!