Manchester United Banter Archive October 08 2014

08 Oct 2014 12:57:11
This back and forth between keane and ferguson is funny in a way, neither of them would of achieved what they did without each other! We should just be happy they both graced our club in the way they have

Hmmm, except after Keane left, SAF won more titles and cups. What else did Roy achieve? Great player for us but a flawed individual

{Ed007's Note - Don't talk twaddle, AJH, if you want to go down that road what has AF achieved since he left the Utd manager's post? Is forcing Moyes on the club and fans an achievement?}

08 Oct 2014 21:07:19
Didnt he boss the championship with Sunderland? Ok only the old division 2. But showed he had potential as a manager. Just bought poorly in the prem, and Sunderland lacked ambition over than survival.

Come on Bond, I know you are a huge Keane fan and he was a truly real player. I was responding to the comment saying they wouldn't have achieved what they did without each other. SAF won championships and a European trophy in Scotland, he won trophies at United both before and after Keano. Not trying to do Keano down, just pointing out that SAF was successful before Roy, with Roy, and after Roy. And yes, the Moyes recommendation was dreadful.

Ooh, I do feel the need to defend AJH against 007's derisory editorial attack!

Notwithstanding the Moyes appointment, SAF did somehow manage to carry on winning titles after Keane's departure, whereas Keane, after an initial flash, appears to have settled into a role of hirsute irascible wannabe. In any event it was SAF who had the perspicacity to buy Keane in the first place, and to use him in a manner that brought out the best in him. People have been arguing that they needed each other, as if there was some sort of symbiotic sine qua non going on. Far from it. SAF was the boss, and Keane was the employee. He won with and without him.

All this proves that the best managers were not necessarily the best players, and the best players do not necessarily make the best managers.

{Ed007's Note - AJH asked what else Keane achieved after Utd, what has AF done after Utd? Keane took over Sunderland when they were second bottom of the Championship and turned them round to win the league that year, that's more than AF has post-Utd isn't it? It's not that difficult to understand, I asked my 6 year old nephew to read over it and he understood it fine so you should give it another go.}

Ok so without keane would ferguson of won the 99 treble AJH? With out ferguson would keane of had the success at united he did? So the point I made stands. Yes ferguson achieved some more after keane but during the 7/8 years keane was captain he led the team on the field. Not taking away fergies greatness at all but keane certainly had a big role in his achievments.

I have to say he was most intense SOB in the tunnel waiting to come out and never chitchatted or hugged an shook hands with anyone from the other side. It was awesome to watch like saying we are at war and I am going to rape you over and over again LOL.

What Ferguson and United would have achieved without Keane is mere conjecture. Ferguson chose to buy him and that's where the principle credit lies.

I've reread both AJH's comment and 007s response. The latter makes a false analogy, firstly because Ferguson appointed Moyes while he was the manager, and secondly because he's now retired, so what would you expect him to achieve?

09 Oct 2014 16:45:39
Haha yeah what's a 70 year old man going into retirement supposed to achieve? Also he didn't exactly have a gun to Moyes' head forcing him on to United so not sure what you're saying that for 007. Keane was a sensational player but there's a huge huge chance he wouldn't have even been a United player had it been for SAF.

{Ed007's Note - It's AJH who is trying to compare a manager's career to a player's,

'Hmmm, except after Keane left, SAF won more titles and cups. What else did Roy achieve?'

What's did you expect a 35 year old player to do when he retired? How could he keep winning trophies if he wasn't playing? Keane won a Scottish title and a League Cup with Celtic after Utd, as a manager, in his first job he took over a team sitting second bottom of the Championship and immediately took them to the title and promotion. AF was sacked by St Mirren, under a very dark cloud, in his first proper management post. Why not compare what AF won as a player against what Keane won?
If Keane had left for Italy or Germany in his 20s he would have won trophies in those countries, what level did you expect him to play at when he was 34 and with a battered body?
Moyes was AF's choice to take over as manager, I don't see how you can deny that. If AF hadn't pushed it there is no way in the world Moyes would have got the job, if everyone else knew it was never going to work out why couldn't AF, or were his motives driven by protecting his legacy and having someone he could influence in the dugout? My point is it's a silly comparison to make

To be honest I think we all know that Fergie pushed Moyes because he wanted to make a statement about the type of legacy that 'he' wanted to leave behind. By all accounts he pressured the board to hire a man without the credentials to take over from him so he could puff his chest out and say that 'his club' still did things differently. He put his own legacy ahead of what was best for the club and we have been paying for his negligence (in appointing Moyes and failing to rebuild) since he retired.

What annoys me most about criticising Keane's career post-United is people refuse to give him any credit for the humility he has shown in the last few years. In his first few seasons as a manager he went from a very promising young prospect to someone who just couldn't get any results from his teams. It takes a lot of guts to come back as someone's assistant and openly admit that you still have a lot to learn about management. But instead of people saying, 'fair enough, he didn't succeed but he's willing to work at it and learn from others'. People adopt, an oh how the mighty have fallen attitude.

Keane will probably never become a top manager, and he certainly won't have anything like Fergie's success. But scoffing at a former captain because he wasn't immediately successful as a manager is just pathetic. It's not as if the majority of former players who try their hand at management fare any better.

09 Oct 2014 21:28:29
Gcu. I agree was good to see some of the tunnel footage. I think it was Keane and even a few others would say that some games were won in the tunnel (or they knew the game was won) before they even went out.

Good point Danny. I wasn't seeking to criticise him but the humility post is a good one. But what is going on with that beard!!?

It's coming up to Christmas, and he can get the kids a few more presents if he takes that third job in the shopping centre. It'll be good to see him back in the old red and white too.

Supasub

I have always liked him and he was some Captain on the pitch. I think his issues with fergie led to him saying things that some fans would construe as anti-united and lost his stature with a group of fans.

Then again fergie was United and everything at the club had his fingerprints on it, mostly good but not all good. Still greatest manager ever in my opinion and his record will never be matched in modern day football by any manager.

08 Oct 2014 11:01:39
Recovering from an ACL can be a long process - maybe a whole year - but if Falcao can regain his touch and composure then I think we are in for an explosive season. We have already seen his ability to make the right runs and find space, add clinical finishing to that and we will be in good shape. This season is beginning to show the potentiality of shaping up similarly to Liverpool's last year. Creativity and pace going forward but somewhat exposed at the back - in other words plenty of goal mouth action, thrills and spills. A return to the Champions League may be priority #1 from a financial point of view (and so we have something to watch in midweek), but as far as entertainment is concerned don't we all want the excitement that's been the hallmark of United sides, good and bad, for the last 60 years.

There is one major difference between us and Liverpool though. I do not expect us to be selling our best players this summer - in fact quite the contrary, I expect us to strengthen further. Although if the club can find a way to get over these constant injury crises, and the defence and midfield experience some consistency, we may not need a whole lot of strengthening.

Fortes fortuna adiuvat

You can see the difference between even RVP and Falcao the latter hhas even better movement and always anticipates that little bit better, IF he gets over the ACL injury he will be better than Ruud I think

Nobody will ever be better than Ruud in front of the goal.

08 Oct 2014 00:16:41
Eds/Posters is there any truth to mcnair being injured? - apparently he has a hamstring problem and will be out for around 3 weeks.