Manchester United Banter Archive April 09 2013

09 Apr 2013 23:15:11
i think the morale of all the moans and groans over the past few weeks, is that we are top of the league, it's about time we started playing like it, isn't it?

the quicker we get the league wrapped up the better. no matter how we do it. our season fizzled out after the Madrid game and hopefully come the summer we will see changes for the better.

just keep the faith for now. I know everyone is a bit fed up but there's nothing we can do about it now and it could be worse

Elvis

Agree just hope we win at stoke anything else would make things quite nervy as I don't necessarily want to go to West Ham needing a win.

I expect City to beat wigan at home easily and win at spurs. I know a lot of us are hoping that they drop points there but Spurs are not in great form and if Bale and Lennon are still injured then City should win that game without a lot of fuss.


Shahram

Agree shahram, city will win all their remaining games.
We need to get our act together. We have been truly pathetic since the Madrid game, and no one has been worse than our manager. He has made a lot of tactical errors, howlers. Problem, is he blames the team, the players, the ref, the opposition, the crowd, but never himself. In my opinion, we desperately need him to retire at the end if the season.
Nomidfield

No midfield

I am not saying they will win all their remaining games but they do have a much easier run in. w

What I don't want is to motivate them and put undue pressure on to ourselves by a bad result.

I think 9 points will do the job and the sooner we bag them the better.

The best opportunity to pick up at least 2 wins is in the the next 3 games as the last four are not easy by any measure.

I am also worried about our CB's and have not heard anything about how serious their injuries are.

Shahram

09 Apr 2013 21:57:08
Any chance of a possible bid for reus?

James {Ed004's Note - I would rather Gotze tbh going to be a star and Ed 2 has said we have looked at him but he thinks next year is more likely}

09 Apr 2013 21:41:30
Hi ed002 do you think isco is a realistic target for us this
Summer. Only seen him a couple of times this year and he
Is what we need. Cheers {Ed004's Note - Don't think so tbh}

09 Apr 2013 21:39:12
Omg what an amazing comeback from Dortmund. They are a true team! {Ed004's Note - Gotze IMO is going to be a future Ballon d'or}

09 Apr 2013 21:18:36
eds, is it possible that old trafford or any other english clubs could be allowed certain standing areas in the grounds or can it just not happen? {Ed002's Note - It is unl;ikely to happen at the top level.}

There was talk of a trial at some grounds not too long ago, not sure what came of that. Would be great if it could be done safely and I see no reason why it couldn't.

09 Apr 2013 22:52:07
yeh agree hb, would be a great way to get the atmposphere going again at english grounds, when you see some of these european teams going mental every game its quite embarrassing how lack lustre we can be

Tbh, I think we'd still suffer. No amount of changes to the ground can compensate for people who can't be bothered.

09 Apr 2013 21:03:49
Hey fella's,
Right here are 7 players that have been linked for sale or mentioned leaving this season.

Obviously we ain't gunna sell all 7 players but thought i'd ask who u would sell.

Nani- Had his time imo the last 2 seasons were his 'big' seasons and tbh he hasn't done it, maybe injury has hampered him but when fit way to inconsistent imo. The thing he does offer is that little bit of magic but it is few and fa between.

Young- Another like Nani that is so infuriating, but when on song can deliver one hell of a ball, but just always seems to want that right foot and is predictable.

Valencia- So off form its unreal! will he get it back? Does he deserve the time to? If he does, is there room for the style of play we seem to be trying to implement? But he can cover RB as well.

Rooney- Very hit and miss this season, When in form has been good but spent to long out of form this season to warrant that pay packet he picks up and in 2 years time he out of contract so talks will begin in the summer if he is staying.

Hernandez- This is such a painful thought for me, the lad needs football and deserves it as well, he would fetch a lot more money than our other 'squad' players too.

Anderson- The same problem as Nani really but more injury prone and over weight.

I understand its all if's and buts but thought i'd just get everyones opinion on who they would sell out of those 6 players. say u have 3 to choose from is more likely than all 6

My 3 would be Young, Nani and Anderson

Grow up

All except Hernandez/Valencia

Brendan81

Nani and Anderson I think will be sold. Rooney i'm still on the fence about. Valencia Young and Hernandez and invaluable squad players and the differance between winning the league and losing it.

For me, it's just time that Nani and Anderson move on. Poor form, injuries and contract disputes being among the reasons why.

Young I'd keep as a squad player and to help maintain the british core to our squad.

I'd probably keep Rooney and Valencia - but in truth it depends what style we want to play as to whether they should.

Would definitely keep Hernandez, a good finisher and totally unique amongst our squad.

So only Nani and Anderson as definite gonners in my book.

U felt the need to comment that no name and i'm the one who needs to grow up? At least i'm brave enough to leave a name

Seems I can't count aswell lol

Nani ando and schoels I actually hope he goes because one more season with him would be painfull one of valencia and young could go more likely young i'd rather valencia he can only realy play down the right hand side rb and rm and we have fabio to play right back next season i'd like two midfielders if possible one started and one bench player that's better than cleverly i'd also like to see powell played more
Paddy The Irish Man

09 Apr 2013 19:34:46
Manchester United to make some big signings this summer. Any1 can argue that where top of the league but. Giggs, Anderson, scholes, nani, evra, Valencia, young, buttner, justarnt good enougth anymore. Just scared of fergie coming out and saying " we don't need big signings '

09 Apr 2013 19:59:51
i agree most those names aren't good enough but you can't just get rid of that many players and find worldclass replacements, also why is buttners name on there, he's a young signing who has played well when given a chance, he could be a good player

09 Apr 2013 18:03:37
If Van Persie doesn't score vs Stoke then he would have equalled Torres' worst goal drought at Chelsea.

And by the end of the season he would have won more premier league titles in one season than Torres has in his career

I don't think it was meant as a smart arse comment. Quite interesting though. Unlike Torres though, its not RVPs fault, he's not had any service. Torres gets good service but still doesn't score.

Perfect!

Torres. already a World cup and European championship winner. something RVP will never win in his career, that is for sure!

09 Apr 2013 16:39:03
I don't think the result was too bad tbh. We did not play our usual game, we tried to adapt to City's dominating game play and we were rather boeing to watch. Some things ( most of us already knew ) were highlited last night.

1- Giggs is not suited for a 2 men midfield, especially up against the best central midfield in the league. He cost us a goal and didn't contribute offensivly. But this is old news to us and I fail to see Fergy's logic in deploying him next to Carrick.

2- Jones is a beast. He showed again that his best position is in central defense.

3- Evra's offensive qualities don't excuse his pathethic defending. Aguero was drifting to the left and Evra should have blocked him out. When he was advancing I was looking around for Evra waiting for him to block Aguero but, surprise surprise! he was out of position, relaxing in central midfield. Why would a left back advance to central. midfield?

4- Our midfield was overrun but I don't think it's completely Giggs' fault. Carrick didn't have his best game but it's more down to tactics than anything else.
Whenever we play Ferdinand or Vida in central defense, we stay deep in our half and invite pressure. We give opposing teams more room in their half and we fail to dominate the game. This might work well when Vidic is on because he is a magnificent defender and he blocks everything but the fact remains that we can't dominate a game with one of the 2 starting. Kompany and Nastasic were pushing on the halfway line throughout the game, giving us less room to launch counter attacks. The only way to improve that aspect is to play pacy and positionally intelligent defenders. That's why I think it's best to start 2 of Evans, Smalling and Jones. They have the pace and intelligence to amintain a high line and help out in midfield, closing teams down when they get the ball. Apparently last night both Smalling and Evans were unavailable, so we needed Jones in central defense instead of midfield, but even if both Evans and Smalling were fit, one of Vidic or Ferdinand would have started, which meant City will dominate.

5- Ferguson is a magnificent manager, but not for the first time this season he proved to be tactically mediocre. Against Real, the right changes would have helped us hang on to our lead, but the manager was nowhere to be found. Same happebed against City. Giggs needed replacement. If it was any other manager, Giggs' wouldn't have made it back from halftime, he wouldn't have even started when a more capable, younger player is available. Cleverley might not be the most capable midfielder in the league but he would do a better job than a 40 yo winger turned midfielder.

6- Young is average. Always have been, always will be. In his last 2 seasons, Young stepped up when needed once. HE scored twice against Tottenham in our 3-1 victory last season but apart from that, he was never the man we turbed to when things got rough.

7- the derby was when we needed Rooney to step up. " The heart and soul of the team " was nowhere to be found. At a point during the match he was excahnging passes with Welbeck. In his return pass to Danny ( a 5 yard pass ) he passed it straight to the feet of Milner. I laughed out loud and I just couldn't stop. It was seriously that bad. When you are one of the highest paid footballers on the plabet, you are supposed to be able to pull off a five yard pass. The bartender, who missed the incident, took away my Brandy privileges and it turned into a bad night.

8- Welbeck was bad. If he was able to just see Rooney in soace ibstead of trying to dribble his way past Kompany at one atage, Rooney would have been in a 1 on 1 up against Hart. But he worked hard and never stopped running. The dact that he can't hit a barn door is irrelevant, he is a very useful squad player who is improving.

Mick

I totally agree with your first point, Giggs should only play as a winger for 20/30 minute cameo's or as the furthest forward of a midfield three if he is going to play longer than that.

Jones is potentially a great CB or a good DM. let's play him where he can become a great player and stop getting him to "do a job" in midfield. If we need a DM let's buy Wanyama, a player who can be a great DM.

Your third point I think is being alittle harsh on Evra, Aguero picked the ball up on the right then cut right across our defence Rafael Rio and Jones all had chances to put a tackle in but none did. And what on earth was Giggs playing at with that back heel to give the ball away in the first place, thus cutting Carrick out of the game. That goal has to go down as a goal conceded by the whole team and not blame one player for it.

Our tactics were to sit deep and pull them out, that is why their defenders were sitting so high but we needed Hernandez on from the start if we are going to play that way as he has the pace and finishing ability to punish them from through balls or balls over the top.

Sir Alex has always been a slow manager to react, its one of his few weaknesses. I do feel he has a blind spot for Giggs though.

Young is a good squad player, but he plays best when his team are on top, he isn't the man to turn to to change the game.

Rooney has been very poor this season. It will be interesting to see what happens in the summer. I wouldn't be too worried if we saw him go, as long as we made the right signings to strenghten the team.

Welbeck is a very useful squad player, but I feel that in time if he fullfills his potential then he could become a first choice player with us.

I know we were sitting deep, as we have been doing against every decent team this season, which is, imo, unacceptable for a club of our ststire. WeWe sat deep against Chelsea on 3 occasions, against City twice and against Real Madrid twice.

I understand the logic of sitting deep against Madrid, eliminating their counter attacking abilities. But against Chelsea and City, we shoukd be able to impose our game on them, or at least try to.

This is when the defensive conundrum comes into play. Vidic and Ferdinand, along with Evans, are our best defenders. But if one the 2 plays, that means our defense can't push forward, which means we will have to sit deep and invite pressure. So what should we do? Continue playing Vida and Ferdinand and transform into a team that sit deep and counter attack every single match, or move on, possibly buy a new pacy centre back, start pushing forward and boss the games we play?

Mick

Shappy I agree with you regarding Jones potentially being great at CB but only useful in midfield. I also wanted us to sign Wanyama as well as Strootman initially. However, I'm starting to think we only need to play 3 in midfield in certain games - perhaps 5 or 10 times a season max?

So I'm thinking now that I'd rather get Strootman plus a technically gifted playmaker e. g. Modric, Veratti. That means we could play Carrick/Stroot alongside the playmaker in most games. Or Carrick & Strootman if we need more stability. Then in the biggest games play Jones as DM with any 2 of the above.

The bonus with this plan is that Jones won't get 30-40 games at CB anyway whilst Vidic/Evans/Smalling are here so we'd be making the most of what we already have rather than splashing £15m on Wanyama to play in only certain games.

Mick with our current midfield we struggle to impose ourselves against half decent teams like Spurs. Until we sort that we will struggle.

Gav, I thought that at one point. But next year the only midfielders we'll have that will be of regular use will be Carrick and Cleverley, both of which are more passers than tacklers. Giggs isn't suited to midfield and Scholes and Anderson will be off in the summer and Fletcher may not make it back. So if we just sign Strootman then that only really leaves us with three players for four places, that's not enough depth. Then imagin if Strootman got injuried, we'd be right back where we are this season with Carrick and Cleverley.

Shappy

I know what you're saing but our best CM partnership this season has been Carrick & Cleverly - neither of them are tacklers. I'd like to see a bit more defensive ability in there permanantly but I'm not sure SAF wants that. If we get Strootman he can at least make tackles (far better than Cleverly and probably stronger in the tackle than Carrick). He can play the deep role like Carrick but can also play box-to-box to provide that drive forwards that we have lacked. I'd have Veratti/Modric type player to take Cleverly's place to make him work harder to improve. Then like I said, Jones would be drafted in when we need him - which is only around 5/10 times a season.

I'd like us to play with a Wanyama type player more often but I just don't see SAF going down that route. He doesn't seem to rate midfielder's whose best attribute is defence, for some reason.

So I'd sell Ando, let Scholes and possibly Fletcher retire - to be left with Carrick, Strootman, Veratti/Modric & Cleverly as our 4 main options. Jones to be drafted in for certain games. With Giggs and Powell as additional cover I think we'd have plenty of cover.

As an idea it looks good but both Veratti and Modric in reality will end up else where. Modric I see ending up at Chelsea if he comes back to England. ANd Veratti is wanted by Juve and he would rather go back to Italy. Strootman is much better suited as a box to box player, and can get caught out of position when asked to play the deeper holding role. Wanyama is a master at holding his position and also the teams shape, he is also brilliant at shielding the back four and covering full backs when they get caught further forward. Long term I think a Wanyama/Strootman midfield looks like a duo that could dominate any game and give the best possible platform for our more expansive players to build from.

I don't see the use of traditional winger as something that will have much of a place in football from here on in. Instead you'll see more inside forwards and the width will have to come from full backs, when you do this it is vital that you have someone there to cover those full backs. That is why I feel we need BOTH Strootman and Wanyama.

Agreed Shaps - I was using them as examples of the type of player, I can't see either ending up at OT.

Wanyama & Strootman would be a very solid base to work from and they would only get better with age. Do you think that between them there would be enough crativity and technical ability in there?

That would be my only worry, Carrick's ball play this season has held us together at times. From what I've seen of Strootman (admittedely not loads) he's good on the ball but not on a par in terms of playmaking as Carrick yet.

09 Apr 2013 23:40:59
Strootman started his career playing in the hole like Kagawa, his vision and his eye for a pass are his best assets imo. His passing is supurb, he always has a pass completion rate in the high 80's/low 90's. His long passes aren't as good as Carricks but his tackling is better. He imo will be a better player than Carrick, he's more mobile, just as good a passer, more comfortable in possession and a better tackler. He just needs to improve his positioning and his long passing and he'll elcilpse Carrick in a couple of years. What he needs is what Carrick has needed a more defensive midfield partner.

09 Apr 2013 23:51:05
I agree with both of you to a certain extent.

Strootman can play both the holding role and the box to box role. While his engine, tackling and all around- ability are wonderful, i'm not sure his positiong, calmness and long range passing are at the level required to become a long term deep lying playmaker. Don't get me wrong, I think he can take over from Carrick, but he is at his best when he plays next to a Carrick type.

A central midfield of Strootman and Wanyama would probably be the most physically imposing central midfield in the world and would work well together, but I think both are at their best playing alongside a passer, not a tackler.

If you guys remember the 99 era, we had Keane and Scholes. Keane was the hard tackling psychotic box to box player, while Scholes was the playmaker. ( by playmaker I mean in central midfield not a number 10 ). i'm just not sure if those 2 complement each other's game as well as Scholes and Keane. I guess we wouldn't know unless we try it anyhow.

If we are in search of a central playmaker to play alongside one of those too, Modric, Gondogan, Badelj, Kovacic, Veratti. would be great signings.

If we look within our own team, we have Cleverley and Anderson who can do the job but with Ando looking to leave and Cleverley yet to prove himself, our options in the first team are limited. If we look in the U21s, we have some decent options. Powell would be good as a longterm option but is looking more likely to have an attacking role. Petrucci wasn't lucky with his loan, guetting injured just when things started looking interesting. We also have a youngster called Ben pearson. He is held in high esteem by regular followers of youth football, and is beeing touted as the new Paul Scholes.

Petrucci aside, I don't think any of them has a realistic option of guetting games next season in that particular position ( Powell I suspect would be given a decent number of games in a more advanced area ) but he might be on his way out given his injury concerns.

In terms of tough tacklers we only have Enkagamene and Tunicliffe but both are a long way off.

If we decide to look within or buy a 2nd central midfielder, I think one of Strootman and Wanyama is a necessity. i'm not sure they could form a good partnership because of their similarities, but with those 2 playing together in a double pivot in a 4-2-3-1, we would be able to have a tactical renaissance.

With the protection that Strootman and Wanyama would offer to the defense, this would allow the fullbacks to bomb forward at will. And with the fullbacks playing high up the pitch, they would be offering us the width we try to keep by playing wingers who tend to hug the touchline. This would allow us to play with inverted/ inside wingers who come inside and either create or finish chances. That way, we'd be crowding out the other team in midfield and bossing games without sacrificing too much of the width that sets us apart from other teams atm.

Mick

Fair play, you will have watched him far more than me. I didn't appreciate his passing was quite that good TBH and if that is the case I'm all the more hopeful that we sign Strootman.

We may not agree on who is best to partner him long term but that may be futile for now as I'm far from convinced SAF will sign a 2nd CM this summer anyway! Really hope I'm wrong on that.

10 Apr 2013 08:15:15
Mick imo that the way we should play, have a more solid midfield base allowing our fullbacks to get forward and provide width. I see the future as playing a high pressing game in which case our playmakers will be in the more advanced position. Having a Strootman Wanyama midfield will mean that Kagawa can be let loose to play as the playmaker. Strootman is a very good passer and Wanyama's passing is under valued imo. So we would be fine. People keep looking to the Scholes/Keane midfield as some kind of template but to be honest that was 10-14 years ago when they were at their best. Football has evolved and moved on since. If you look at all the teams who play with a two man midfield then you'll notice that there is no one as attack minded as Scholes playing in one.

As for what role Strootman could play, well 3/4 years ago he was playing just off the striker. So I think there is scope to mould him into what we need as he has abit of everything.

09 Apr 2013 15:22:33
Who is Phil Jones' barber?

ts87

Ha ha I was thinking that myself, he looked a bit like stan Laurel last night :-)

He was awesome though.

Brendan81

From a proffessional point of view I can tell you his Barber took the number two too high on the sides and blended straight up rather than out at an angle, that coupled with his hair being too long on top for such a blend left him looking abit like a pineapple.

He should come in and see me and i'd put that right.

This is such a quality post and has lifted my spirits. Do you remember when it looked like his girlfriend had put streaks in for him.

Thank you ts87

09 Apr 2013 14:00:30
The way a lot of people are going on you would think we were 12 points down with 7 games to go.

The truth is we lost, but in my opinion we weren't as out of it as people think. Good chances were rare for both teams and it turns out us and City got lucky with one of our goals, it's just City got another one. The result doesn't really hurt the goal difference like the result last season did, and if the results were the other way round (I. e. we lost at the Etihad but won last night) would people be happy? We would still be 12 clear.

There are definitely 10 points we can get from our games. It's less than half of the available for us. I'm sure the result hurt the team, and may be the catalyst for the final push.

As Syd and others have said, that is if City win all their games, which I don't think they will. They aren't really in form; they played well last night but still generally struggled against to get through our defence, and easily beat a Newcastle team who were very poor that day. They have a trip to White Hart Lane soon, and I reckon they might come unstuck then.

Believe in the team, the last thing they need is the supporters doubting them. I'm sure Fergie will go over the consequences with the team, get their spirits up and get that title.

We now head to Stoke and I believe we will win there, and set ourselves up for the remaining fixtures.

The title isn't won until its mathematically won, but if we start believing we've blown it, we will, and that's the last thing any Manchester United supporter should want.

MEF

09 Apr 2013 13:27:50
I agree with syd here that a lot posters on here are over reacting after the city loss.

Don't forget city spent silly amount on their team and still are 12 points behind.

we're in a transition and yet are miles ahead of the next team.

We have two or three ageing players that were important to united as messi is to Barcelona or Ronaldo to Madrid yet we are ahead by a mile.

We haven't played how we're used to seeing Manchester united play yet we're miles ahead.

So called City have the best midfield yet they lose to Southampton.

Guys chill out we're in a process of having a new first 11. lots of players retiring. some players are integrating well in the team, some will take longer then others (kagawa).

We don't spend silly on players that ruin your whole team just look at city and Madrid this year, with full of stars but none of them are committed as Valencia, hernandes or even Rafael.

Yes we need few changes in summer, but until summer support your team rather then criticize.

We must've done something to be at the top. Fergie must be in the position he's at for a reason.

There is a reason that none of us have a job at Manchester united.

I reckon everyone has a opinion as to what they feel about Manchester united, but remember one thing there are 20 teams in the premier league and we at the top.

There are few clubs running on oil or foreign owners yet we continue to develop our current team with valuable players (not all are stars), But fergie seen something in this team that we haven't realised.

We have to remember when we play a match we don't play against our selves we play a opponent. In a sport there's always one winner and in football anyone can beat anyone by having a little bit of luck and have to be tactically on point. Just look at celtic what they did to Barcelona. Yet they wouldn't even be 5th or 6th in premier league.

Yesterday my friend sent me a message sayin that (we didn't even score one goal, that city scored 3 goals. ) I started laughing and said to him you should be embarrassed to even message me as you should first look table how far behind they are even with their Millions.

Mate Barcelona were rubbish until Rijkaard set up a team ( messi, iniesta, xavi, puyol ) for guardiola to take over. they didn't win much during that time. But look where they are now. They invested time in youth worked hard. They also moved on with tactics.

I am just happy to be supporting a team that fund for transfers with their revenue are one of the if not the biggest club in the world. There are lots more points to be a happy supporter. There will be times when Manchester united lose but i'd still support them and back the management as there is a reason why we're here typing posts and Fergie managing.

The only time I think you can criticize fergie is after two years and see who fergie has replaced the players with.

Until then keep on supporting United.

Singh

Singh

Don't mix criticizing our set up for not supporting the team. If people were not supporting the team they would not be arsed to post their frustration.

Barcelona's set up and us are miles apart. Their coaching at the youth level is unbelievable. The class of 92 which had very little to do with the manager was a once in a lifetime thing and those players were in our setup already when SAF joined with Giggs being the exception. Barcelona today has 4 or players in their youth set up that would cost 15 million each and not for sale with more coming through.

We can't get 15 million for half the guys in the first team squad.

Our youth system produces zilch and mainly players who are good enough to play as squad players for a few years and then off to a lower table teams. We have not produced a star from our youth set up in 20 years (excluding the 1992 bunch).

Before you start talking about oil rich clubs, we were the cash rich club in the 90's and 2000's having the biggest stadium and biggest chunk of money to buy players and assemble teams.

We broke transfer records all the time so don't make it out to be as if the manger works with a tiny budget and ha has to build up the team from grass roots. We have spent 110 million in the last 3 years alone.

Every player on that pitch last night with the exception of giggs, rafael and Welbeck has been acquired for large chunks of money. Rafael being the only genuine starter for me.

Finally, I am happy with our league position but fed up with our quality of football. This is not about last night but last 2 years we have been poor too many games for a club of our size.

Shahram

09 Apr 2013 13:18:39
The biggest challenge to being a United supporter right now is trying to balance a totally dull, non-United style of football with winning the Premier League. It is very hard, almost impossible, to do. Is winning the Premier League great. hell yes. Is being forced to use negative tactics because the opposition on a one-off basis are better than you a horrible feeling. hell yes. That in itself is a form of defeat.

That's where we are guys. On a one-off basis, I believe City will beat United 60-70% of the time as it stands. I also worry that this percentage will increase with other teams. Don't even consider those odds on the European stage. I no longer feel confident at home to at least 15 European teams!

I for one will never be happy with counter-attacking tactics - especially when playing at home, even if it means not winning trophies. We had this approach against Madrid, Chelsea (replay) and now City last night. We came out second in all of these. In previous years we came through these periods as regular victors - with style. No more. Both aspects are for the moment at least. lost.

We've also even fallen back to this counter-attacking approach during many other games when this would never have been considered. We may have been forced to defend on many an occasion of course, but very rarely use that as an attaching tactic from the offset. It simply goes against all of the traditions that SAF has wanted to maintain at Old Trafford.

The argument that a poor midfield means that we can only play counter-attacking football is not good enough - primarily because our wingers (and Rooney) are so poor anyway.

We've won the league this year the Arsenal way. Plenty of 1-0 wins, gritty defense, and a reliance on one or two quality players. This is NOT United. Indeed I've heard many a United crowd mock Arsenal for this approach!

I see this as a major crossroads in the United-style. I for one will always want 4-4-2, with the right personnel this has as much chance as any other system. There are also very few that are as enjoyable to watch.

Many of United's past teams under SAF rank as some of the most attractive to watch. Mid 90's especially.

The reality is that "inferior" teams relinquish possession to "superior" teams. Its a natural instinct within players and managers. United, to a large degree were always the "superior" team. Pace, power and self-belief were evident in all of SAF's previous teams. Very few of these qualities seem to exist right now, and its plain to see that United are happy to have less possession!

We watch (whether at OT or on TV)United "to watch United", not to admire their defensive qualities - which in themselves, particularly higher up the pitch - are woeful.

So, would I sacrifice the league for a season that included far more attractive football from United. ?

I don't know.

Whoops, should have signed it.
Timbo

The manager is forced to play a negative way due to the club not having the correct personnel to play any other way. We are in transition and the manager cannot go out and spend a fortune on building a new squad overnight like Chelsea and City. Like Arsenal and most other clubs we have to build gradually. We are in transition and winning the league, what more could we ask for?

Sydney!

Syd can you honestly say we didn't have people on the bench who would of done a lot better than giggs and young?
johndenton

I probably would have started with Young and Jones. But Jones was occupied elsewhere. However I certainly would have brought on Kagawa & Hernandez earlier.

Sydney!

09 Apr 2013 12:25:36
"I know steviek thinks the title is in the bag, and I also see that our players and manager are acting as if it is (apart from Jones who was superb). Steviek, we have away games against stoke, west ham and arsenal coming up, and a home tie against villa, who are fighting for their lives. So do u honestly think the title is done and dusted?"

Who thinks it's in the bag, nomidfield? Not me. I've learnt that over the years, believe me.

But under pressure, 12 points clear? Do me a favour! A lot of hysterical overreaction on here, and suddenly 12 points isn't good enough any more.

How many do you want to be clear, before you can enjoy a run-in with no stress? 20? 30?

I'd love to be this far clear ANY season at this stage, with ANY Utd team. Enjoy it, instead of getting your knickers in a twist.

20 would be nice :)

Shahram

Tbh I think its in the bag.
Chris the REDman

I think it's in the bag
Also last night didn't tell us anything we don't all ready know

09 Apr 2013 13:23:28
i'll admit that maths isn't my strong point but we still need three wins and a draw whilst city need to win every game and need us to lose four more. So nothings really changed. Normally i'd worry about stoke away but they've really dropped off. I don't relish the arsenal or chelsea games. But I think we can pick up twelve points or better from our remaining games. I can see us dropping points but I see city doing the same. let's just get it done game at a time. MrE

Agree with jred. I think we as supporters get heart attack after we lose a game.

I agree to some extent but you should have an open mind and respect the opposition as a team.

Deep down DO WE THINK, giggs, Valencia on current form and welbeck can compete with Yaya, silva and nasri.

Be real we know where we lack and even though we have one of the worst midfield yet we're on top. ;)

Imagine we had 2 world class midfielders do you think we would've lost last night.

Singh

Jred, spot on, we have known all season where our strengths and weaknesses lay.

Sydney!

09 Apr 2013 11:58:16
When all is said and done it was only one game and in the scheme of things its nothing. Last nights game was never going to make or break our season.

Yes Giggs is crap in midfield and we were over run YET AGAIN in midfield, but now we will just carry on and hopefully not blow it like last year

09 Apr 2013 10:41:49
What an overreaction by some of the flappers on here. I can remember going eight points clear and people saying we could now afford to lose to City and still go on to win the league. Well we were 15 points clear and lost to City. We must beat Stoke to get back on track, but the pressure is still on City to win all of their remaining games and I think they could drop points at Spurs and Swansea. We have just played the hardest game of our season. We are more than capable of winning all of the last seven games.

Would you rather be 12 points behind and have City's remaining fixtures or 12 points ahead with our remaining fixtures?

Sydney!

09 Apr 2013 12:10:24
Thanks for talking sense.
There was every chance we could have lost, we did, let's move on!

Whistler.

Sydney who is flapping?

We have been poor for so many games this year and people are letting out some steam and most of it is dead on. You are an exception that seems to think this is great team and can do no wrong.

Mate we will not win our last 7 and I am a gambling man and looking at City's schedule, I would bet that they are more likely to win their last 7 than us winning the last 7. Actually we have no chance of winning the last seven.

I said a few weeks ago let's see how we perform in the games against our rivals coming up when people were talking about how great this team is, which I don't agree for a minute. Great teams dominate play and possession, go forward in numbers and defend well. They have opposition teams mentally and score wise finished with 20 minutes to go. We have non of those offensive and control attributes but do defend well.

If we get turned over at Emirates and have to fight for our lives for a draw against Chelsea at home, this whole bs about how good we are should stop.

I thought getting our ass kicked by Barca in the CL final for a second time was finally the wake up call but we seem to want to continue playing the same style and same formation with personnel that is worse than 5 years ago.

Shahram

The lead isn't the problem. There is no doubt that we will win the title. The problem is this we have just played badly and lost to our League rivals at our own patch. We were overrun in midfield again and we couldn't keep the ball. We will win the League, and we deserve it due to our consistency, but the squad isn't good enough. How we have surrendered to City & Chelsea has shocked me, we seem to have lost our spark since losing to Madrid.

Of course we want to be 12 points ahead, but going forward, do you honestly think the performance last night was great or even acceptable? Do you think our performance against Chelsea was great or acceptable? Add to that the rubbish we played against reading and Sunderland and you've got to accept that we are not as good as we think we are.
This is not an overreaction, but if you honestly think this team could win the league next year playing like this, then I think you're not being honest.
Our tactics are stuck in the 90's, our manager will not change the method of play, he will not react during the game when things are going wrong, he used to be the master of this.
City dominated the game completely, that is worrying and disappointing, if you are willing to accept it and if the players and manager are willing to accept it, then we're in for a mega wake up call next year!
Nomidfield
Nomidfield

Nomidfield, we hear this nonsense from people like you every season. All this "next season we will come unstuck" "we will not make the top four. " Yes we will, we are going through a major transition and still winning the league and some people are still not happy. Utter madness! Hopefully the manager finally sorts out the midfield this summer, but even with a poor midfield we have been very strong this season.

City did not completely dominate the game at all last night. Apart from the deflected Milner shot and the Aguero goal they offered little more. Possession was close and shots on and off target were close. It was very much in the balance. I am more concerned about the attack more than our midfield at this point in time. They are creating very little and struggling to score goals.

Sydney!

Shahram, why would Arsenal turn us over and why would we be battling for a point against Chelsea at Old Trafford? This is an overreaction and you are flapping like a little Pilchard out of water. If we lose the next four games then I may get worried until then I will have faith in my team.

The manager is trying to redevelop the squad and it is much harder to do when you haven't got a endless pot of gold like City and Chelsea for example. Our transition has been a gradual thing and we are still deep into that transition as we speak. I think what the manager is doing is fantastic and there isn't too many manager who could build a new squad and still challenge for titles. it's not easy even with an endless amount of cash, ask Roman.

Sydney!

09 Apr 2013 13:29:17
Shahram at times I get the feeling you want us to come unstuck just so you can turn around and say I told you so. Same with nomidfield. Yes the midfield is not good enough and he has to sort it this summer. But meantime we're still infront. The stoke game will tell us a lot. He has to get them fired back up as they have gone off the boil. MrE

Sydney

LOL that is rich coming from you Sydney who flip flops on every issue.

On a serious note, There is no point in getting stuck into a discussion with you as you live on another planet and see things that unfortunately mortals like me can't see.

Time will tell and I bet on City winning last night and will bet on Arsenal winning at Emirates "wager my friend?"


Shahram

Sydney you remind of Colin Montgomery, who most people should know. This guy always blamed everything else but his own shortcoming for not being able to win the big ones. He won a lot of money and European money titles but just could not hack it when it came to the Majors.

Your assessment off our team's performance and its short comings is always the same, it was the referee, it was the weather, it was the pitch but never the team was rubbish and the other guys were better.

What are you SAF pet lol, because that is the stuff he usually says.

Shahram

Shahram, I am absolutely amazed about one thing. Hundreds of millions of sperm and you were the best one ;)

Sydney!

MrE

If I wanted us to come unstuck, I would not bother posting.

Everyone gets it. our midfield need players due to our investments in Hargreaves, Anderson who should be key players today having failed.

The frustration is with the team set ups and playing the way we do. If we don't have 2 midfielders who can boss the game then put another midfielder on the pitch when the wingers are so out of form. Watching mid table teams lay siege on your half for the last 30 minutes of most games is bewildering.

Finally, I did say I still believe we will win the league but worried until we bag the points.

Shahram

09 Apr 2013 10:37:35
Is there something going on in the background that we're not aware of, which is leading to Giggs starting a lot of game in central midfield? Sir Alex Ferguson is not a fool, and certainly does not suffer fools either, so something isn't sitting quite true with me at the moment.

Is Ferguson starting Giggs in front of others to provoke a response?

Is Ferguson allowing Phelan to dictate tactics for educational purposes, and it's Mike who's making the critical error (s)?

Is Ferguson making a case to the powers that be? We all know that the Glaziers watch the big games, so what an opportunity to highlight a particular weakness in the team, therefore aiding a request for funds in the Summer?

I don't buy for a second that Ferguson is 'losing the plot' and I've always been a believer of trying obtain the full story prior to making a judgement. What we do know, is that Ferguson is a master in psychology, and uses every tool around him to provoke the 'response' that he wants.

Thoughts and comments welcome as always.

WF Red Devil

For me, Phelan is just a yes man, whenever you see him talking to Fergie all he is doing is nod. Meulensteen on the other hand always seems to have something to say, you could see this yesterday a few times if you could see him on the bench.

I doubt we would lose to highlight weakness, but I'd very much like it be that we showed the Glazers what we need. Unless they are stupid they must see what they need to throw money at.

Saf has always preferred to play with wingers, these days, this method of play is completely out of favor with the top coaches.
If saf is allowing phelan to pick teams, then I think he's completely lost the plot. Phelan can't even spell his name! He should never be second in command.
If saf is playing crap teams just to highlight deficiencies in our team, then firstly, he's lost it, and secondly, the Glazers will turn around and point the finger at Ferguson for buying the crap players we've got, such as young, Valencia, Anderson, nani, bebe, and before that obertan and tosic.
When was the last great midfielder united bought? Let u think of that one!
Nomidfield

09 Apr 2013 13:18:04
Good responses - makes quite a bit of sense.

Definately agree that Phelan is a total 'Yes' man, Fresh! I also believe it's no coincidence that since Quieroz left, our fluidity in attack has all but disappeared. We've gone the rigid 4-4-2 in the 90's, to the wonderful 4-3-3 during 07/08 (Rooney, Ronaldo & Tevez), into a formation that's neither one or the other in my eyes.

I also don't believe that Ferguson would go out and lose on purpose to send a message the Glaziers. What I suggested was that it was an opportunity to highlight a weakness. Obviously with the hope that we'd scrap a result at the same time.

If everyone agree's that Phelan brings nothing to the table. Who would people realistically like to see come in as a No. 2 to replace Mike?


WF Red Devil

Sorry but do you honestly think sir alex will play giggs in the middle in our biggest game of the season to provoke a reaction? personally I doubt it. for me he chose what he thought was his best possible side to get a result, he got it wrong. we all know he likes to play with two wingers, and due to lack of quality in certain areas we have sat deep all season and tried to catch teams on the break. i'm not going to moan to much over one result but over the course of the season I think we have proven that we need significant investment in the middle. only then, and with a change of tactics can we play higher up the pitch allowing us to return to controlling the majority of games.
nathan

09 Apr 2013 09:35:24
I think it was there for all to see just how short of top class players we really are in the Midfield area. We got dominated last night, City controlled the game from start to finish.
You can't stop a world class midfield that have the likes of David Silva and Yaya Toure with a 39 year old left winger drafted in to bail Man United out of the rubbish again. When will Fergie realise that the central midfiled area needs strenghening?
This is becoming boring posting the same thing on this website, all of us on here can see the problem, 76,000 supporters in Old Trafford can see the problem yet Fergie still things that this midfield we have is good enough.
A massive shake up is needed, Anderson has to go, Nani has to go and I would get rid of Valencia as well. We need two (top class) central midfielders like Strootman who can get hold of the game by the scruff of the neck and also a creative player like Gotze.
Another center half is also needed, Vidic gets injured to much these days and Ferdinand has one more year left at the most.
We also need a another top class winger to replace Nani and a left full back who is good going forward but actually knows how to defend.
I think if Vidic or Evans were fit Jones would have played in the center midfield area, I thought Jones was superb by the way.
Very dissapointed, and in my opionion the league isn't over. We have a hard run in and I think it's going to be a lot closer than people think.

Simmo

So who are realistic transfer targets?

Strootman for sure and I have to believe seeing Rooney struggle Lewandowski must be up there in terms of priorities. I think we will sign one Attacking midfielder as well. I hope there is a left back in there but not sure, Evra is rubbish and needs to be shipped out as city had a field day on his side yesterday.

The rest depends on if we can successfully move Anderson, Nani, Bebe, Macheda. I do hope we will have enough money for a proper left winger with a left foot.

Shahram

I think last night shown where we need to buy. Can we use Jones & Rooney in midfield and buy a CB, midfielder & striker? Rooney will need to sharpen up and be better in possession (i'm not convinced). Jones will need time to mould into a midfielder. Cannot forget he's still young. Perhaps Garay, Strootman & Lewandowski?

We clearly need an inverted winger, someone who can drift out wide, but also score a significant amount of goals a season too. Someone like Mata or Nasri when at Arsenal. I think Rodriguez is an obvious candidate as we have already bid for him, but unconvinced we will meet Porto's asking price.

We still need a solid LB in place, Evra has been good going forward this season, but still struggles defensively. It's time for the manager to sort out the LB and midfield areas. Baines is getting on a bit now, but he is the finished article and for £15m would be a good buy. His corners and free-kicks mean both Rooney and RvP will be in the box instead of taking the set-piece.

So I think Baines, Garay, Strootman, Rodriguez & Lewandowski would be a great summer, however I think Begovic may come in, but I do think other areas are more important unless DDG wants to go back to Spain. That is a costly outlay, but with Nani, Anderson and one or two others leaving it's doable.

Would Carrick, Cleverley, Strootman, Rooney, Jones & Powell be good enough midfield options?

Sydney!

I am sick of watching this boring dross. I've been going home & away for over 20 years & this team bores me to death. The midfield & wingers are not utd class. Carrick aside it has to be th weakest midfield i've seen for a long time. Even when we weren't winning trophies in the 80's at least we played with passion & pace, not now mundane boring football. If we get beat at Stoke I can see us blowing it big time
Blackpool Red

Sydney

Rooney in midfield is a non starter and that is exactly what is wrong with this team. Instead of accepting the personnel needs change SAF is constantly waiting for some of these players to miraculously come through.

We would be better ditching the idea of Anderson, Rooney as midfielders and just go and buy two proper midfielders as starters and rotate in guys like Cleverly, Powell, Kagagwa.

This has been going on now since 2008 and most of us have had enough of it.

Jones whilst great in terms of being combative lacks the technical ability, passing and the maturity at the moment and maybe can be developed
there long term.

We need to bite the Bullet and buy a Modric type and strootman type player with carrick in there as well.

With that sort of midfield teams can't flood the wings because they know we are toothless down the middle and everything comes from the wings.

This will actually open up the wings for us and our wingers won't look so ineffective. Currently for an opposing manger It is so easy to defend against united as we are very predictable.

When was the last time we had a midfielder run into the box and score or score with a shot?

Finally, Evra needs replacing.

Shahram

Shahram, I agree with 100% of your post. I hope we do not have a summer where we struggle to flog some of our players as that will have some bearing on who comes in.

Sydney!

Sharam

You are spot on with your post.
Why should we have Rooney and Jones as options? For christ sake just go out an buy two new central midfielders, it's simple really, it's not rocket science is it.
Why have players playing in the wrong positions. It's been like this for three seasons now.
Ryan Giggs playing central, Paul Scholes coming out of retirement, Phil Jones covering when we are short in the midfield. It's virtually every week now.
Don't give me this sh*t about nobody being available and no value in the transfer market because that is just a cop out.

Simmo

Simmo, we have tried to sign midfielders like Nasri, Sneijder & Witsel, but how much did SAF want them? When he really wants a player he usually gets them. So is it down to his stubbornness or what? The media will criticise our midfield and come the summer there is still no midfielder. Very odd.

Sydney!

Syd

We can talk until were blue in the face. The fact is we need midfielders because our's are not good enough.
If Fergie thinks that our current midfield is good enough then I seriously have to question the managers thinking because every United fan knows we are desperate in that area.
It's a miracle that we 12 points ahead with this side and if we stand still in the transfer market next year we will struggle. This year will make City, Chelsea and Arsenal more determined for next year. When you look at our team 4-5 years ago and look at it now we are have gone backwards.
No proper quality is being brought in, just prospects and 10-15 million pound average players.

Simmo

09 Apr 2013 08:59:36
In the past, united will sit there and watch our opponents die as we get to the end of the season. Why? Because we had an engine room containing, Keane, Beckham, Butt and scholes. We also had a world class winger in giggs and later Ronaldo.
Now, we play city, who have the best midfield in the league and put four of them out on the pitch, and our engine room contained carrick (32) and giggs (40). Then we play Ashley young who has not got a clue, and welbeck, who is not a winger.
There is absolutely no energy in our engine room, even if we don't have the right personnel, we would have been better to start with kagawa, carrick and cleverley, and then giggs might have been an option.
This is total madness, we tired last year and gave the league away, and we look knackered now, we cannot go into games against the top teams with two aging midfielders when they all have four excellent midfielders.
Now, is saf going to do anything about this for next season, and I'm also referring to our style of play? I don't think so. I think he will carry on playing with two wingers. I think barca and Dortmund have shown the way forward, but we are stuck in a time warp.
Sorry for the long post, but it is disappointing to see our midfield totally dominated by Chelsea, city, spurs, Everton, Newcastle, liverpool and even Fulham, and I have not even mentioned the European teams.
Nomidfield

We have no idea how to set a team up 442 with poor wingers will never work.
Phelem as a player I didn't like, as coach totally clueless.

It wouldn't matter who we buy with that setup they wouldn't know how to get the best out of them. 442 is dead

Stagmufc

No Midfield I agree with everything you said.

Barca and Dortmund do play with 2 wingers but they play a midfield 3 in a 451 formation with a lone striker.

If you look at the teams playing a traditional 442 with 2 wingers like Real Madrid or Munich, they have Alonzo/ Khadeira and shcweinteiger/ Martinez bossing the middle of the pitch.

Unfortunately we would have to be crazy to think any of our midfielders with Carrick being the exception are close to that sort of quality.

I hope we go to 451 formation for the remaining away games as that would allow us to play higher up the pitch and believe it or not create more chances with a midfield 5 drifting wide when needed. If that means Rooney or RVP sit on the bench so be it.

It sounds odd but I would have rather had a Carrick, Cleverly, Scholes, Giggs, Welbeck midfield with RVP as the lone striker last night as we would have retained possession better and controlled the game better.

Shahram

Totally agree shahram, somewhere down the line, the management have to realize that quality is required and especially in the middle of the park. We have tried buying the relatively not so expensive, like nani, Anderson, Valencia, Bebe, obertan, tosic etc. But now is the time to go out and make a statement.
Two world class midfielders strootman/wanyama and modric/goetze. If we also insist on playing with wingers, then one of them, if not both, has to be world class. That means Ronaldo or Bale type of player.
Will saf carry this out? Will Glazers fund the purchases? Only time will tell.
Nomidfield

09 Apr 2013 08:12:25
The writing has been on the walls for several years.
This is a poor Man U team and the manager has shown how inept he is at changing a game, happened during the Madrid game.
This ineptitude by SAF in the league is a repeat of his ineptitude in Europe. Man U had the easiest group of all the English teams in last year's Champions League but still could not qualify for the last 16. Take a look at his record over the past 10 years in Europe. not very good.

Are you some sort of maths biff! We're 12 points clear with 7 to play. Yeah sir Alex is inept alright. Bloody hell why do we have to put up with pessimistic persons like you. Sod off and support Chelsea or city. We lost one game to a peice of individual brilliance after a poor offside decision cost us a goal. The same way a dreadful sending off cost us in Europe. Ten men against the frightening pace of this Madrid side would have been hard for anyone to turn around. You make it sound like we've had a poor season.

And how many seasons is it since Liverpool even participated in the champions league?

Philiphs93

Come on now he's only having his say, telling someone to go support another team is really sad.

Puzzled you forgot to sign in mate!

I can't actually work out of the OP is a joke or not!

09 Apr 2013 08:12:25
The writing has been on the walls for several years.
This is a poor Man U team and the manager has shown how inept he is at changing a game, happened during the Madrid game.
This ineptitude by SAF in the league is a repeat of his ineptitude in Europe. Man U had the easiest group of all the English teams in last year's Champions League but still could not qualify for the last 16. Take a look at his record over the past 10 years in Europe. not very good.

09 Apr 2013 07:44:55
Left Back, Centre Midfield and Winger (as well as Zaha). That is the minimum we will need this summer in order to compete next year, because Chelsea, Man City and Spurs will all spend money. We have some excellent players in some positions but those three just lack a bit of class in the present team.

On last night, Jones was immense, so don't understand people not rating him as a central defender on here. I thought Rio, evra, young and wellbeck had particularly poor games. Rooney was just unfit.

Thoughts?

Nozzla

09 Apr 2013 00:02:39
If you have attacking fullbacks then you don't need wingers!

A narrow 4231 should be the formation.

GK

Attacking fullbacks, Central defenders

Defensive mid, box to box mid

CAM, CAM, CAM

ST

we should sell nani, young and hernandez and bring in strootman, Wanyama, rodriguez (use him narrow, CAM) and fischer.

Maybe use Valencia as an attacking fullback if Rafael gets injured.

If we needed to change things around we could always bring on Valencia and Zaha for the wings.

Why Hernandez?

Deluded.


TRUMORS

Why Hernandez? He's the only true goal scorer we've got and you want to sell him, I give up!
Nomidfield

Agreed Henandez is a natural finisher. IMO he should be playing in fronyt of wayne

08 Apr 2013 23:58:01
dithering with a capital D

I posted yesterday that a midfield of Carrick and Giggs would not be good enough nor Cleverley or Kagawa. Something must have got to Ferguson because to select Giggs was a shocking decision against City's midfield. Fast forward to however many minutes of dross and at a key moment our most experienced player tries a fancy flick and gives the opposition their first goal. Why was Giggs not immediately withdrawn for that, dithering. So we move forward in time and watch our tiring team getting deeper and deeper with a 39 year old in play, then we see Aguero come on. Surely our Manager must see they are overrunning us in the middle and make a substitution, fresh legs. No we dithered again and only when their second goal went in did our manager do something, far too late.
Just sit back and think how decisive Mourinho is. At key moments the difference in top sides can be seconds making decisions yet we cannot make them in minutes, no not minutes tens of minutes. Is it stubbornness or is it just that he can't see it or he can see it but thinks Giggs still has it against City's quality midfield.

In the early stages Welbeck ran through, Rooney free on his right and Welbeck totally messed it up. The difference between decent and top class is that the top players would have naturally made the right decision. Welbeck isn't a top player.

I haven't listened to Ferguson post match, I don't need to because it will be more platitudes to hide a poor midfield and what was plainly dithering and indecision. Whether we win the league or not the dithering was plain against Madrid and tonight. Ferguson got stuck between defending and attacking so we did neither. It was almost like last season at their ground where we tried to grind out a draw but this time we weren't sure what to do.

So it's 12 points now and the pressure is on, win the next game or there is potentially a slip appearing and have we really got the character to deal with that. Perhaps Giggs thinks he can keep back heeling trick shots because no Captain on the field said a word to him. No leader and I really hope we have enough to get us over the line. It is so frustrating because it is so obvious.

Red Man

"12 points now, and the pressure is on".

No it's not Red Man, that's a ridiculous thing to say. 3 points clear and I could understand it, but the pressure is on City to win all the rest of their games.

I think they'd much rather be in our position too.

StevieK

Take a look and we have run out of steam, we are not creating chances.

Giggs playing central midfield

We have pressure because unless you lived on another planet last season we blew 8 points. This time we still have Arsenal and Chelsea to play and we don't know what last year did to their heads. Since the Madrid game they haven't been right and for me we need to win our next two games. However if we don't I see pressure. I remember when we buckled and gave away 12 points to Arsenal, maybe not in such a short space of time but we had a far better team back then. People need to wake up and stop being arrogant this isn't won yet, history tells you that plus the way we have tailed off.

Red Man

I kinda agree with both StevieK and Redman points

Last night was a hard defeat to take with it being City - my heart is saying we are ok still plenty of games to win it but my head is playing through the remaining fixtures and thinking its last year all over again - stoke and west ham fixtures will be the deciding games - if we play like we have been I can see us dropping points what with chelsea and arsenal still to play things could get tight very quickly.

If we were playing well I could take it but since the Madrid game we have looked disjointed, Wingers and forwards haven't been doing their jobs - rooney looked well off the pace yesterday - young had another mare, RVP has dried up goal wise but is still contributing which is what we need from the rest of the guys.

After 60mins last night I was yelling for Cleverley and Kagawa to replace Giggs and Rooney but fergie doesn't change it - he decides to bring kagawa on in injury time - he is the sort of player that needs time to bed into the game - so frustrating at times and we all know united don't like to do things the easy way

Greetings from China boys. Sadly, I was unable to see the game last night as it kicked off at 3am local time and I was knackered! Was gutted to see the result but I seriously doubt we drop 12pts.

Wont comment on a performance I didn't see myself, but from what I've read, we were second best.

We have looked out of sorts lately, we really need to stop the rot BIGTIME and start putting lesser teams like Stoke next, to the bloody sword. No 1-0 victories with 2 shots on target.

Here;s to number 20, but keeping the fingers crossed!

RED_SKY

We created more chances than City. What we didn't do and haven't done well for a long time, is keep possession.

Pip

Totally agree with the poster. And I posted several times to the same last night. We were out numbered and outfought in midfield.
I know steviek thinks the title is in the bag, and I also see that our players and manager are acting as if it is (apart from Jones who was superb). Steviek, we have away games against stoke, west ham and arsenal coming up, and a home tie against villa, who are fighting for their lives. So do u honestly think the title is done and dusted?
The poster was right about mourinho and all the top managers, they make instant decisions when things go wrong. Saf was the best at it, his substitutions have won us countless games, but not anymore, we are always slow to react, games against Chelsea, Real, City and spurs home and away have all proved this point.
In his post match interview, he said that we played very well! If that his assessment of our performance, then its time to move on. We were outplayed by city for most of the game, apart from a short period after we equalized. City deserved to win. So wake up guys, the league is not over, let's hope our manager and players realize this too.
Nomidfield

Spot on redman last night was pathetic, giggs should be ashamed of that performance and a few others. like you I blame fergie for his tactics, as you say he went for a 0-0 or a 1-0 and it backfired like last season. steviek we may be 12 points clear but we have lost any momentum we had and handied it straight to city. how many attempts on goal did we have at sunderland and last night? that's the worrying thing for me. all this talk of our best ever squad don't make me laugh sunday league players could of done better than some of our so called superstars last night. it might hurt all utd fans that defeat but I can assure you it hurts more when you have to go into work this morning and face the bluenoses you work with.
johndenton