Manchester United Banter Archive January 09 2014

 

Use our rumours form to send us manchester united transfer rumours.


09 Jan 2014 21:11:28
A lot of talk about Marchisio in the past few days, the real question is:

Which clubs are interested in Marchisio and is there a possibility of a January move, Ed002?

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{Ed002's Note - Why keep asking the same question twisted around?}

09 Jan 2014 22:39:22
You're Moyes, you've £30m to spend, and assuming anyone you approached would say yes.
Who do you sign?

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Hi Ed002,

Sorry but I don't recall anything said about the Marchisio rumour.

Didn't mean to cause an upset.

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{Ed002's Note - It wasn't from you but I am pretty sick of answering the same questions because people won't use the search function and won't read the posts. No problem - I'll go and ban a Liverpool poster to cheer myself up.}

10 Jan 2014 00:03:26
Ed2 - in your very helpful summary on the rumours page you make no mention of Yohan Cabeye, does this mean MUFC aren't interested?

Papers have it that he can likely buy-out his contract next summer under a "Watkins ruling" by paying them the wages he would have been paid in his last 2 yrs (i.e. sub £6M). If Ashley is aware of this he would certainly be open to offers now.

Whilst he does tend to drift in and out of games, when he's in he can be a real game changer as he's painfully shown us and demonstrated with France.

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{Ed002's Note - No there is no interest. It will be the Webster ruling but it will just be scaremongering. If he were to move now it would be to PSG.}

09 Jan 2014 21:26:40
Nonsense Sydney' united visibly need a top passing midfielder not a midfielder to get up and down the pitch. Fellaini was bought both for quailty and aggressiveness into the midfield. Why would united need another fellaini type when there game is awful at the minute. To make it simple for you syd, united the great united side not soo long ago had the great scholes to boss the game. Im.a liverpool fan but he is the greatest midfielder.England have had in the last twenty years.

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Peashooter I don't mind being called deluded I've been called a lot worse, I know we were structually the best team in england one time and had the pulling power to attract big name players, but answer me what's the point in bringing in a manager to mange a team on a shoe string when he can't manage the group of players that he already has, his tactics have cost now in two games
already 2014 by putting valencia at right back he gave away the game against spurs and got sent off, let me be deluded and ask would kanchelkis have been made right back, don't think so and I'm not living in the past I'm being realistic, there was fluencey in our play fast attacking football why should that change because we have a new manager, every player that is with the club should have that drilled into them not have the a$$ ran off them in training causing a cart load of injuries, I understand the debt but pea we are Manchester United we have spent big and I'm sure we'll spend again, my point mainly was moyes has to get the best out of them and I fear he can't cause he's lost the dressing room. Hope I'm wrong.

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Apologies, if you are feeling offended. That wasn't my intention.

I was not calling you deluded, but United fans in general if they think we are going to be able to bring in the very best players. We are not in an advantageous financial position any more, and I don't think its going to happen. The top teams can pay bigger transfer fees and better wages, and in this respect I am sure we in agreement, have more convincing managers.

Nor am I an apologist for Moyes. Far from it, I think he's made some very bad mistakes. But as for playing Valencia at right back, SAF did the same on numerous occasions when he was pushing for a win. So I think in this respect one has to go a little easy on him.

My main point was that its not fair to compare this squad with one from another era and blame him for the players he's inherited, who judging by their recent performances, are inherently not of the quality we United fans expect.

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09 Jan 2014 21:12:22
Just after watching football gold on sly when we thrashed city at home 94/95 season, got me very emotional, what a game, what a team, what has happened to us? that was a team of good defencesive attacking full backs, hard tackling excellent going forward midfielders, pacy wingers, mixture of youth and experience and the genius of cantona and Hughes. Moyes could do with watching that game and see what Manchester united were and are about.

I know city are a different team now but that could have been any team and we were destroying them, sure the league has moved on and teams are
stronger now but god damn it we are Manchester United and the quicker moyes realises that, you can be sure pep knows what's expected at bayern ant tata at barca etc. he had the summer to build and I don't except the fact that he thought the players we had were good enough, champions should always be buying keeps players hungry for places and put fear in other clubs when you are strengthening your squad, I don't want moyes to fail, but he's got to got before it gets too bad where it takes years to recover. GGMU

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I am no apologist for Moyes, but you are referring to the days when Manchester United were able to purchase the best players because they were financially strong. After forking out 800m pounds on interest and debt restructuring we are a completely different club stripped of any ability to compete with the well financed clubs. What money we have invested in players over the last 6 years has largely been spent badly and in the wrong areas - Bebe (7m), Ashley Young (17m), Berbatov (31m), with Fellaini (27.5m), Kagawa (12m) and Zaha (15m) yet to prove themselves, or on squad type players. Blame SAF for that.

Those days are gone. If there is a great player available you can now guarantee that one of Manchester City, Chelsea, Real Madrid, PSG, Monaco, Barcelona, or Bayern Munich will snap them up before us. Its time for United fans to stop deluding themselves - we are not in a position financially to compete with the best in Europe. Ferguson has been saying it for years - we are not a big money club anymore. That is why David Moyes was hired - in the hope that he can do it without having to spend our way to the top. He may or may not be able to do it, and he's certainly made some questionable decisions in his first 6 months, but blaming him for United not playing like one of SAF's great teams in a period when we were structurally the strongest team in the country, is really not fair.

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As a big partridge fan I'm loving your name. If I respond to your posts, I might have to shorten it to KMKYZ though. A-Ha!

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09 Jan 2014 21:09:30
GCU,

I'll try not to start fear mongering and just ask you for a clear answer/explanation to why you think we have a better chance of signing top class players in the Summer rather than now.

The teams you have listed that have made big signings despite not having CL football all have one thing in common: they have lots and lots of money, in Monaco's case there is also a pretty big tax incentive. The players that you site for losing players also have one thing in common: they lack the financial power of Europe's biggest clubs, that's why Dortmund have to sell players, because they know other clubs can offer far higher wages.

Now let's take a look at United. During the last number of seasons United have failed to secure targets because of money issues: Sneijder wanted to much money, Hazard was out of our price range, we were outbid for Lucas, and even last summer Herrera's clause was too much. In other words, United have consistently proven unwilling to match the fees and wages that the likes City and Monaco are. In SAF's words, ""What we're finding anyway, the climate for buying these top players - not just the transfer fees, the salaries, agents' fees - is just getting ridiculous now."

Do you honestly think things have changed under Moyes and we will be willing to start splashing the cash like the big hitters? This isn't fearmongering, it's the reality of where we are now. If we were willing to offer the type of money required to sign top players, we wouldn't have to wait until the summer, we could do it now. However, if we're not willing to spend it now, then these players will have no reason to move to us during the summer. The big attraction of United under SAF was that we were guaranteed to win trophies, that gave us an edge for some players like RVP. That edge has now gone. Players like Koke, Reus, Gundogan and Costa will have numerous suitors during the summer. Their other suitors will either be able to offer more money or a better chance of success than we currently can, and will end up elsewhere or stay at their current clubs.

The players we could sign, like Cabaye, Coentrao and Herrera are just as likely to move this month as they are next summer. The difference is that if we sign a few players this month we might actually salvage something from our wreck of a season. I suspect that we will end up with nothing by the end of this month, but mark my words we won't see any of top class players arriving in the summer that Moyes is promising now.

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The problem with waiting for the better players to become available is that teams like PSG, RM, Monaco, Barcelona, Chelsea, City or Bayern gobble them up. We were waiting for Goetze to become available this summer, Bayern went out and convinced him to join early and they met his release clause. Sometimes I would like the club to use their initiative a little more. Nearly all clubs do not like to do a lot of business in January including us. We spend little over £10m at the most during January. Why don't we go out and spend big in January like Chelsea did with Torres and Luiz, as some other clubs will not want to do business now. Yes we would need to pay a little more just like Chelsea did, but desperate times call for desperate measures. If Vidal becomes available in the summer then we will be pushed out of the way by another club. If we move now we will have half a chance.

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The biggest kid in the playground is no longer the biggest kid in the playground. We are used to getting who we want over the years but times have changed and we are now not able / prepared to compete financially with a lot of other clubs. Danny is right, we have to get clever and creative.

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{Ed002's Note - The biggest kid in the playground will always be the biggest kid in the playground.}

I find it almost ludicrous to think that the club won't act in this transfer window. There are a plethora of CM's out there who are better than what we currently have.

To be perfectly blunt: on current form, we probably have one of the worse CM's in the premier league.

Not sure what is going on behind the scenes, but it doesn't feel me with any optimism what so ever. The club should have spent the months between September and January working on deals, and not sitting on their proverbial backsides.

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Danny

"United have consistently proven unwilling to match the fees and wages that the likes City and Monaco are"

You were scaremongering in your previous post and talked about about players not wanting to come if we miss champions league. But now you have changed that to the fact that we just don't want to pay and that is why players don't come. I have always maintained it is money first and then other factors.

So what is then Danny?

Players will not come if we miss top 4 or players don't come because we don't pay that extra like some of the other clubs?

If you don't want to accept the fact that players might not be available at the moment and the summer offers probably 10 time more players and many new faces who will shine at the WC and become the stars of the future, then no point in having the discussion. Remember players like Ozil's, Khedira, Sanchez, who went for peanuts after the last world cup.

January has always been a poor window and I prefer not to panic buy and pay over the odds and have another anderson/nani type player sitting on the books with fat wages that no one knows what to do with.

It is not the end of the world of we have bad year as long as we rebuild with the right players.

Our fundamental issue is our investments into players who should be at their peak now has flopped in many cases. What we do over the next 24 months will have a great effect on the clubs future and if that means waiting 6 months for the right players then so be it.

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Samthered

Which centre midfielders are you referring to mate?

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GCU, a sensible post. Might not be what a lot of fans want to hear, but realistic. There is to much "I want it, and I want it NOW" attitude at the moment. Its a case of we are United and we should have all the best players, and they should all want to play for us whenever we come calling.

Whether Moyes is the right man or not is irrelevant. Nobody could just come in and sign every player on their wish list and have instant success. We need rebuilding, and it will take time. The sooner the fans realise that the better.

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Last bit was badly worded. Of course Moyes is relevant. I was meaning in terms of securing all our transfer targets immediately.

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GCU, if you had take time to look at any of the other post I've made during the last few days I have said that players want two things: money and success, in that order. The want the biggest pay check and to have a chance of winning the biggest competitions, common sense really.

I don't see how I'm being contradictory when I say that if we miss out on CL football that it will reduce the chances of us convincing top class players to join. It's ironic that the three players you mentioned have stated that the reason they joined the clubs they did was for success, in Sanchez case he even rejected higher wages. It's also ironic that two of these top class players rejected United when they moved for peanuts (although I'm not sure if I'd class €26m rising to €37m as peanuts). Let me ask you this, would RVP be a United player if we had finished outside the top four the season before he joined?

What top class players do you think United could sign in the summer and do you think that we have a chance if (a) other clubs are likely to offer more money, and (b) if we can't offer players the chance to compete at the highest level? The only competitive edge we had over other clubs in the transfer market was SAF guaranteed success. That is gone. If we had the money to compete with the likes of City and PSG and Monaco, we could buy top class talent now. If we don't then, as Syd said, we will still lose them other clubs in the summer.

You can hide behind smoke and mirrors all you like, but you seem unable to explain why Manchester United, not other clubs, have a better chance of securing the 'right' players during the summer. As far as I'm concerned the players people want us to sign like Reus, Koke, Vidal, Mangala and Costa will either remain put or end up at other clubs during the summer. The targets we have a chance of securing like Herrera, Gary and Cabaye have as much chance of joining us now than in the summer. So why would we wait until the end of the season to do what we could do now if it could save our season? That is, unless the board have decided not to back Moyes and all the stories about a war chest are just a PR stunt.

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GCU, we need someone who can come in and make an impact. Someone who can help us regain some domination of the CM area. I realise that a ‘franchise’ CM will not happen this January, but there are players’ out there who could come in now and give us some much needed steel and composure. The player that springs to mind instantly is Morgan Schneiderlin. The guy would help us keep control of the CM area. He is a high impact player with bags of energy. He is also a very good passer of the ball. He might not be the Stella signing we all hope for, but he is a big improvement than what we already have - with the exception of Carrick.
Another player who – IMO - would be a cracking signing would be Claudio Yacob. A very strong player with great composure and passing range.

Stats don’t lie; and as it stands, we have one of the worst CM's in the premier league. We need to do something to address that area, and fast.

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Samthered

What makes you think schneiderlin is available and why do you guys all want to lay the blame at our door if we don't get players for a lack of trying, or moyes is at fault.

Do you know for a fact we are not trying? Did you think maybe what is available is being priced way over what they are worth.

This over simplification of things is not how it works.

Read somewhere some portuguese guy Ola John at Sporting who was having a decent year last year and had a 40 million release clause and now is available for next to nothing.

Some of these guys are grossly overpriced and a 3 minute tube video and all the hype is not going to materialize on the field as good business.

You either have to trust the club and what they are doing or have this notion that we know better.

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Swollocks

There is to much "I want it, and I want it NOW"

Nah mate. There's nothing wrong with wanting a 3-4year problem sorted (CM) NOW. It should've been done years ago and given how much the club makes, it's not out of order for the fans to demand answers.

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Danny

That is, unless the board have decided not to back Moyes and all the stories about a war chest are just a PR stunt.


That's exactly what it is mate, we hear about a 'warchest' every time a window opens. Then it gets swept under the rug. I'm very much a 'show me' type of person. If the money is available to the new manager, show me. Prove it.

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Red Sky, I wouldn't disagree with you that midfield should have been sorted. But even with that problem over the last 3 or 4 years, we have still remained competitive and won trophies. Its just now, when Moyes has come in, that the problem has become more of an issue. I totally agree we should have sorted it a long time ago, but Moyes had inherited this problem and cannot be expected to sort it one transfer window. No matter who the manager of Manchester United is, now or in the future, he cannot make players come to us, nor can he make other clubs sell to us.

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GCU, I don’t really trust the club atm. There seems to be too much procrastination happening at the highest levels.

With regards to the availability of Schneiderlin, I would think that he would jump at the chance of joining us, given the fact that we are still a massive club, and he plays for Southampton. Maybe a bit of simplistic thinking on my part, but I see no reason why he wouldn’t want to join one of the world’s greatest clubs – even if we are not performing like one.

We had three months to talk to agents’ and put the feelers out; yet we are nearly in mid-January, on a terrible run, and things don’t look like they will improve any time soon. We need new players’ desperately.

I am not trying to jump on any band wagon, but I was at the game on New Year’s Day, against an average spurs team, who played a 442 system, and who made us look completely inept. It dawned on me then just how poor we are in the middle of the park. I mean, ffs, our best CM player this season is a centre back.

Things need to be done. We need to try and salvage this season.

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Danny

"GCU, if we fail to qualify for the CL this year do you think we will be in any better position to sign the 'right' players this summer?

If Moyes can't convince our captain and his talisman to sign new contracts, do you think he can entice top class talent at other clubs to join us?

I think people are severely mistaken if they think it's a choice between top class players in the summer or lesser talents now. As far as I'm concerned we can sign players like Cabaye now or sign them in the summer. Players like Reus, Gundogan and Koke are the stuff of fantasy. "

I just posted what you had previously written and my reply was dead on the money. Fear mongering and no talk of money and all about top 4 and moyes not being able to attract.

Maybe you should read what you wrote again and then comment.What you don't get is top clubs rarely sell players to each other and the whole system is set up like a feeder system and many of the players today who are stars at the bigger clubs
come through the second tier clubs and we are one of those clubs at the top of food chain and will be even bigger going forward and if you can't see that, it is pointless to have a discussion mate.

I think there are many here who suffer from the grass is greener on the other side and genuinely don't understand the size of our club but clearly very spoiled that they can't take a bad season and like to blame everything and everyone.

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Sam

I think there might be the reality of southampton not wanting to sell or player not wanting a jan move.

I think teams don't like to sell in January because it throws their own squads into disarray, unless the player is a fringe player or they have an abundance of talent and certain players are not getting enough game time.

For the above reasons and in the case of us not being able to sign players it has anything to do with the club not trying.

Believe me if we can see that the team needs new top quality players so can the management and ownership.

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GCU, I said read my other posts. Fir example, yesterday I wrote "As I've said before players are motivated by two things: money and success. Rooney hasn't signed a new contract because he doubts Moyes ability to secure success, and anyone who thinks the Glazers are going match the big boys in monetary terms is living in cloud cuckoo."

But on to the main point. I asked you plain and simply to explain why you think that Manchester United have a better chance of signing the 'right' players during the summer. You answered with another diversion: top clubs rarely sell to each other. This is neither here nor there or anyway related to the argument. More smoke and mirrors.

So I'll ask again, do you think that we can sign players like Reus, Koke, Vidal and Costa during the summer? Do you think that we will compete with clubs like Barca, Real, City, Bayern, Chelsea et al, you know the other clubs that will invariably be bidding for these players, financially during the summer? If not, then who are these mystery 'right' players that will magically appear in 6 months time?

I think you have a very naive idea of how 'big' a club United are. We haven't been spending like a big club for years, and next season I doubt we will be competing in the biggest competition. What you fail to mention in your big clubs don't sell to each other arguments is that players who leave the so-called 'feeder' clubs leave in search of higher wages and trophies. If United finish outside the top 4, then what can they offer to these players that competing clubs can't. One bad season won't kill off the club, but it will make the task of attracting top class players even harder: the club will be bringing in less money and like it or not players value playing in the CL.

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Maybe, Danny, Rooney signing a new contract has nothing to do with Moyes, and everything to do with Rooney.

Could that be possible, or is it just easier to blame Moyes for everything?

After all, it was SAF who had problems holding on to him. Moyes got him to stay during the summer, didn't he?

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"Rooney hasn't signed a new contract because he doubts Moyes ability to secure success, and anyone who thinks the Glazers are going match the big boys in monetary terms is living in cloud cuckoo."

There you again with all the spoof and bs you post. Has Wayne Rooney discussed this with you or is it again one your genius assumptions. I will take certain PL managers word's on this matter and they believe he is angling for one final big payday and if we are willing to pay he will stay.

Do I believe we will compete with the very best come this summer in terms of signing players. YES I DO

Do I believe we are going to get every player we are after, offcourse not. Do I believe all the names that are mentioned of being an interest to us, never and seeing them go elsewhere does not mean we did not compete but maybe maybe we were never in for them.

Finally, on the contrary you are the naive one. You need to look at the wage structure of football clubs and we are one of the elite clubs around when it comes to wages so paying enough wage for up and coming players from smaller clubs is not going to be an issue.

If anything going forward with the new tax regimes of Europe our wage structure will be a competitive edge as UK tax brackets have traditionally been higher tan some of our counterparts on the continent.

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Stevie Rooney wanted out during the summer and was open to a move to Chelsea. The club refused to sell, and that was that. The challenge was always going to be getting him to a sign a new contract.

Moyes has played him in his favourite position, and built his team him. This should have addressed his problems under SAF, but now it's emerging that Rooney will not sign a new contract unless we secure CL football. Now it may well be that Rooney just wants a fat payday and an even fatter last big contract, but Moyes inability to get the team competing for titles provides a convenient excuse.

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StevieK

It is easier to blame Moyes for everything and not the players as they are saints and world class and that is why every summer there are host of Europe's elite clubs at our door looking to buy our players and bid after bid is turned down.

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GCU, last season we has the third highest wage bill in the EPL. But we had the lowest wages as percentage of turn over in the division. Now, the CL revenue will likely be lost next season, impacting our turnover. So what you're saying is that despite the club's revenue most likely going down, wages will go up? And this is the club owned by people who loaded it with debt instead of investing any of there own money.

You're right I'm the naive one and next summer, despite us being unwilling to compete at the top end of the transfer market for over 5 years, we will break transfer record after transfer record and match City and Real for wages.

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Do you know that the 3 premiere league clubs are in the top 6 highest wages in World football. Our top line and what we spent on wages is another matter all together.

We could not compete at the top end in the last few years because of our debt and inability to refinance during the financial crisis and the cost of servicing the debt meant we had to scale back.

Many companies have gone broke because of the same issue. I run my own business and we had similar challenges, where we borrowed at high interest rates believing we would be able to refinance at much more competitive rates but due to unavailability of credit we had to scale down our growth and spend levels.

As I said a lot more complicated but the average person finds it easier to say we don't invest and we don't compete.

At the moment we are an easy target and everything is wrong with us, as stated previously we need players but we are a lot better than what everyone says and our manager is a lot better than what some here want people to believe.

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09 Jan 2014 20:30:01
A recent article in the Guardian had some interesting points worth sharing. SAF's 1992 book he said "Only through success can a manager become master of his own destiny, Success unlocks all the doors. Set against a background of two or three trophies, decisions can be made with a ring of conviction, players accept what you are saying without doubting, supporters sustain their belief through the inevitable setbacks and you become a figure of authority without the need to look over your shoulder. Success achieves all these things as well as giving a manager security at home, knowing his job is safe."
The evidence is there at Chelsea, where José Mourinho's gravitas, strength of personality and record of achievement means there can be erratic results and the ostracism of a crowd favourite, Juan Mata, without even the beginnings of any real discord from the club's followers.
Perhaps in hindsight - though they would never admit it - there are people in high positions at Old Trafford, or at the Glazer residence in Florida, wondering now whether it was actually so wise making Moyes the recipient of the "Chosen One" banner that hangs inside the stadium, rather than the manager who was available from Real Madrid with two European Cups to his credit, along with league titles in four different countries."

Where is Moyes leading us again?

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09 Jan 2014 19:30:55
Who would people prefer and believe to be best value and attainable?

Left back - Sandro, Shaw, Baines, Coentrao.

Centre back - Garay, Mangala, Subotic, Hummels, Dede.

Centre Mid (2 of) - Koke, Herrera, Vidal, Marchisio, Gundagon, Lallana, Pjanic, Barkley, Cabaye, Sneijder (Lol)

Wingers - Di Maria, Gaitan, Konoplyanka, Reus, James Rodriguez, Lucas Moura.

Strikers - Costa, Mandzukic, Vucinic, Cavani, Falcao.

Or many other names I may have forgotten.

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{Ed004's Note - Coentrao, Mangala or Garay, Vidal + Gundogan, Di Maria}

Baines
hummels
gundagon and herrera
reus
mandzukic

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Mangala, Vidal, Gundogan, Reus, Cavani.

I went with reuse as drawler is not an option. Also what about the guy rodrigues for lb. Lots of guys like him here. I have never seen him Play.

Attainable:

Mangala, Gundogan, Herrera, Di Maria, Costa

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Shaw, Mangala, Vidal, Reus, Falcao.

Possibly not the best value but jesus we would have some team.

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Prefer but highly doubt - Shaw, Hummels, Vidal, Gundogan, Reus, Pedro, Falcao.

Attainable and would like - Coentrao, Zouma, Herrera, Marchisio, Di Maria.

Expect - Baines, Garay Cabaye

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09 Jan 2014 20:40:31
ED04 on fire.

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All of the players at Spanish clubs are technically available, because players must have a buy out clause in Spain. Koke's for example is 30m (not sure if £ or Euro) Herrera 36m euros. Simple right? Well only if the club want to sell firstly a club who do not wish to sell can make the player pay VAT its 18 or 20 % in Spain, can't be arsed looking so Koke would cost 36m right? Lol well no if AM are really prepared to dig in they can force the player to buy himself out. Again simple slip Koke 36m and he buys himself out. As soon as the money 36m hits Koke's account its classed as income and in Spain taxable at 44 ish % which is 16m ish so 52m ouch. I'm drinking Chablis so if my maths sucks shoot me.

Back to the question I'd be very happy with Ed004's selections ( get out of my dreams). Sandro or Coentrao, Vidal (Or more likely) Marchisio, Koke, Gundogan, Di Maria. We need 3 of those this window.

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Baines, Hummels, Gundogan, Vidal, Reus, Costa.

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Hi ed004, do you believe vidal is attainable? I know from the other ed that we are interested but I can't see utd paying the likely fee for him. Apparently we have bid for marchissio (spelling) I think he would be a more likely target. Thanks

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{Ed004's Note - I am not optimistic of signing Vidal}

I've got depressed about choosing transfer targets as we never buy anyone of note. It is getting pathetic to see us struggling away at attracting anyone.
Time for Moyes to turn on the charisma amd buy top talent!! Believe!!

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Some of the permutations come to prob 150mil, all the pie in the sky we be lucky to buy 1 maybe 2 of the players mentioned, when was The last time we spent big cash on that level

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09 Jan 2014 18:50:24
I'm going to be straight to the point here. And ask any if the eds. Is there really any point us keeping our hopes up of signings of any note this month in your humble opinions. I've given up hope personally but what do the eds think?

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{Ed002's Note - As I have said, if the right players are available at the right price thane something can be done.}

09 Jan 2014 17:47:52
And it's the club we love Ed002, with millions upon millions having been taken out since they arrived, and not one penny being invested by the Glazers themselves.

G.A.G.U.S

{Ed002's Note - It is their business GAGUS. The alternatives are what in your view?}
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The lack of alternatives doesn't change my opinion of them.

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{Ed002's Note - I appreciate that GAGUS. One doesn't want to say the devil you know ... but the reality of alternatives has some real nasty and potentially apocalyptic stuff in there. Aside from the potential institutional investors there was a group from Australia who had an idea to build on the brand (not totally dissimilar to the Red Bull approach) where they would look to leveraging money against the business to invest in growth sporting areas to provide income to the "group". Then there would no doubt be a nice businessman from Turkmenistan, a Canadian sports partnership etc..

The bottom line is it is too big for sports. It is business - and the result of success.}

Ed 002 - I know its not the right time to talk about it, but Bayern have slashed prices for their UCL match against Arsenal as a thankyou gesture. Apparently costing the club 90,000 euros. I understand your point though about how easy it is to talk about an alternative and how horrifying the real deal may be. Nevertheless we as fans only have an emotional investment that we care about, pure business logic may well always be a step too far us to appreciate. Only time will tell!

Deeps.

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{Ed002's Note - You could go around the world picking on little things other clubs do and feeling hard done by Deeps. Crawley Town give free entry to season ticket holders for FA Youth Cup games.}

Ed 002, I think I only feel hard done by the fact that, apart from a sheer business motive, the Glazers have zero interest in football related matters. No, I am not saying that they should take interest in our daily affairs at the club. I just think what Roman and the Sheikhs have done is a more whollistic approach. Improve the brand of football, improve it from the grass root level and then reap the rewards financially. But that's only from a fan who has been following United for 25 years now.

I appreciate your opinion from a neutral standpoint, and may be that is what is the realistic view point. But football fans like me and millions aren't the smartest.

Deeps.

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09 Jan 2014 17:48:07
So it looks like there are going to be some big changes with the squad between now and the start of next season if we are going to stay competitive, with vidic, rio and evra all likely to leave on frees this summer and giggs likely to retire.also a few others that should be moved on for instance anderson, buttner, fabio and possibly nani. I know its hard to get decent players in january but we really need to get some quality in now to try and save this season and intergrate them for a good season next year. I would love it if we could get a few of the following players- koke, barkley, reus, witsel, modric, garay, subotic and coentrao. Probably won't get any of them but no harm in dreaming. Who does everyone else want us to sign?
Dannyc

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09 Jan 2014 17:02:56
Question for any eds available,
Are u personally surprised that utd haven't made any significant (if any) moves in the transfer msrket or is it panning out how u expected?
Cheers

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{Ed002's Note - We cannot answer anything about timing.}

09 Jan 2014 16:43:41
What do we make of this 25% wage cut if we don't get top 4? Financially it makes good sense and potentially it could inspire the players to play better, but alternatively it could make them look for the exit door. That's a worry.

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The greedy ones will want to leave for sure.

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You can't punish the players for the manager's failings. Of course they are responsible to an extent - but I don't think there's anybody out there (United fan or not) who believe that our current squad is good enough to finish in the top 4!

I'd expect the few quality players we do have to walk if the club tries to enforce any pay cuts.

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If they aren't good enough to be playing Chmpions Lge then they shouldn't be getting paid wages that reflect that they are.

In any job you get paid appropriately as to what your skills are (more skilled get paid more)

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Red seven I believe with our current squad we are good enough for top 4, However I believe we need key players back fit and staying fit for that to happen.

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Brm - In terms of best starting 11's; Arsenal, Chelski and City all have us beat and they too are dealing with injury problems.

It's easy to weigh in with 'ifs' and 'buts' regarding player fitness but the fact that our squad is unable to cope with the injuries we have shows just how weak it is when compared with our rivals.

On paper I'd say that 4th spot was a possibility for us with some close competition from Spurs and Liverpool - but it was never a given - and as such to hold our players accountable for circumstances of which they have no control (ie, the fact that Suarez is in the form of his life or that RVP is out injured as a result of Moyes' training regime) seems unfair.

As for Devil Dust's comment; some of our players are good enough to be playing in the champions league and some aren't. Should players like RVP, Rooney and DDG be punished because our squad is full of Buttners, Clevs and Andos? I don't think so! If we had a squad like City's or Chelski's then maybe - but atm we're streets behind them.

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You win and lose as a team red

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I'm sorry DD - but that is rubbish.

If I asked you to do a job that required 11 skilled people to complete and gave you 2 skilled people and 8 that did not have a clue what they were doing - I would have no right to complain or punish you when you failed to complete the task because there was no way you could.

Players like Rooney, RVP, DDG will have expected to be given the support to be able to do their jobs properly when they signed their contracts. RVP scores when given the chances, Rooney does all he can for the team and DDG performs better than most other keepers in the world.

As far as I'm concerned they can do no more than they are doing and can't be blamed for the failings/inability of those around them. Of course working as a team is important - but it's the other 8 players on the pitch which are preventing them from doing their jobs.

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09 Jan 2014 16:39:03
Games are won and lost in.midfield. United need one top passing midfielder to dictate.the tempo of the game. Uniteds play is too slow and lackluster. Somone like a Martinez( bench bayern munich, ) would reignite United. Use might be lacking in other areas but to get the ball rolling, someone like him who IMO is the second best all round midfielder in the world after alonso would be great for your club

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I'm sorry Al but Moyes has just bought Fellaini for £30m. The chances of us going for another player like him is unlikely to say the least. We need a busybody in midfield. A midfielder who gets up and down the midfield creating and not afraid to stick a foot in. Someone like Vidal, Koke, Gundogan IMO. They will inevitably play beside Fellaini when he is fit and raring to go.

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Arturo Vidal is the best midfielder in the world for all round capability.

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Sydney, that's why I'm excited by this Marchisio rumour. If Fellaini applies himself to be that midfield hard man who breaks up the play and helps the defensive he needs an attacking minded midfielder next to him and Marchisio will make plenty of runs from deep which would be perfect. He isn't my first choice but life shows that you don't often get your first choice. I'd be confident of top 4 if we got him and got RVP/Rooney fit and playing.

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09 Jan 2014 16:27:14
I was wondering is Coentreo Champions league cup tied or could he play for us

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{Ed002's Note - Available.}

Which make it even more fustrating.
He's absolutely perfect for us, just what we need.

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09 Jan 2014 16:22:38
IF the apparent £20 million bid has been made for Marchisio then I can only see it as a good thing. He will certainly get our midfield moving forward and would be an excellent foil for Fellaini or Carrick who would sit deeper. The problem has been the gaps between defence to midfield and midfield to attack. He would narrow those gaps which would hugely improve our link up play. Juventus may be willing to deal also because they want Nani off of us for a reasonable price.

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09 Jan 2014 16:10:16
Valmir Berisha is saying that he is considering offers from an English club and an Italian club. He looked impressive at the U17 World Cup last year and I believe we've shown interest in the past. Any chance we are the English club he is in negotiations with?

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For anybody interested it looks like Roma are the Italian club (and favourites for his signature, by all accounts). Can't seem to find anything conclusive as to who the English club are but my guess would be Liverpool. I suppose there's still a chance that it's us though!

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09 Jan 2014 16:09:43
Moyes did a decent job with Everton with limited resources.
Ok he didn't win anything but he got top 4, fa cup final and generally finished higher in the league than a lot of teams that had spent significantly more.
The question is how well can he do with some money to spend, we still don't know.
The summer was a farce we all know, but now he has to start getting players in, thete can be no excuses. He has to make it happen.
2 big signings in Jan is a must.

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I don't know where this myth that Moyes did well with limited resources has come from. Prior to this year their net spend in the preceding 6 (I believe - I worked it out a while back) was higher than Arsenal's.

They have some very good players in their squad and a rich history. People talk as though they are a Wigan or a Cardiff; but they are one of only 6 teams to have spent every season in the EPL and have a very strong fan base.

Aston Villa were about as successful as Everton whilst Martin O'Neil was manager- and they played much more positive football whilst spending less money.

The fact that Martinez has been able to step in and do a better job than Moyes (playing much nicer football) says a lot about how much Moyes actually did in terms of performances on the pitch. He deserves some credit for the squad he assembled - but that is all.

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Based on rumours the two that we seem closest to are Coentrao and Marchisio although I imagine that this would be subject to change and we are completely wrong.

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Fresh, you have to say that Coentrao is a possibility given the fact he almost signed in the summer, he is still eligible for UCL and he actually wants to leave RM.

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Fresh I would take those 2.
Redseven, he spent a fair bit on fellaini but apart from that never really had any big buys. There was never a massive amount for him to spend, they had to balance the books and was never much to spend.
He made a lot of decent lower priced buys, was relatively successful and left the club in a good position. Martinez has done well for 6 months with some good loan signings but let's see how he does long term. Either way he arrived at the club which was in a healthy position to start work with.

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I think he will but I have thought a lot of things Syd and they haven't happened. Here's hoping for Coentrao and Marchisio if that's what we are gunning for - both of which I think could play in the CL which would be a huge boost.

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Will - As I said; Moyes does deserve some credit for the squad he built and left - but Wenger did a lot more with less spent over the aforementioned period (albeit he had a stronger foundation to build on).

I'm reluctant to give Moyes too much credit for their league positions during his reign because they played some of the ugliest football of any of the teams in the top half and the vast majority of those in the bottom. He's always set up very negatively and has often dropped points after parking the bus to defend a single goal lead.

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I don't think we are in for Marchisio.

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09 Jan 2014 16:03:01
I think we need to decide on 5 or 6 players that Moyes really wants, and then in order of preference, start putting serious offers on the table, even offering over the odds to show we really want them. Then hopefully we can tempt deals for 2 or 3. I don't get this idea that there is not value out there. If you pay 50 million for someone who brings success, then its value, just as trying to get a cheaper option that isn't the answer is a waste of money . On this note I would rather throw silly money at Vidal than pay the rumoured 20 million for Marchisio, whom although better than what we have, I don't believe will be the answer.

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The truth is - valuations have changed dramatically in contemporary football thanks to teams like Chelski, RM, PSG and Monoco - but those in charge of the purse strings at OT seem reluctant to accept that.

That said - there still are some great signings to be made out there. World class players will always cost big money but there are some very good players moving around for around £10m who would still strengthen our first 11. Ironically we only seem to show interest once their valuations have shot through the roof.

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Redseven, the MU hierarchy seem to be reluctant to pay extortionate agent fees that will almost guarantee a player signing for a club. I would love to know how many top players we haven't signed due to the agents being greedy and us unwilling to satisfy their greed.

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Whether it's agents' fees or giving a little bit more to the club - the point is that it's common place in football these days. The club either need to accept that or stop talking about signing 'the very best'.

The derisory offers we made for Fabregas over the summer were embarrassing and a sad indication of just how out of touch the decision makers are with the financial side of player transfers.

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Redseven, I do not believe a starting bid of £25m or a 2nd bid of £30m plus £4m in add-ons is derisory to a club who were desperate to make some funds to fund their spending spree.

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Sydney. Fabregas is one of the best midfielders in the world. It's true that Barcelona are in need of a new CB but haven't done too badly without one so far. For that reason I have to question just how desperate they were.

If Bale is selling for 80m and Ozil 40m - Fabregas has to be worth at least £35m in the current market (I rate him higher than Ozil and so think £42m was about right!). We supposedly bid £40m for Khedira - so why not go this high for Cesc who is a better player?

Our £28m joint bid for Baines and Fellaini was also laughable considering that we ended up spending that on Fellaini alone. I think if we had gone in at £35m we would have got them both - but our ridiculously bid only served to strengthen their resolve to keep Baines. That said I never wanted either at the club.

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We did not bid £40m for Khedira redseven.

And I do not think Oezil was worth £42m.

£34m 2nd offer for Cesc was a fair one. Personally I think £35m straight up (no add-ons) would have been a fair price. Barcelona didn't even pay that for him.

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09 Jan 2014 15:55:57
Serious decline? Please tell you’re not actually thinking that? That's dramatic! Do you really think that Fergie alone appointed Moyes, without having the boards backing? Listen, I’m not saying Moyes has been perfect. He’s made some daft decisions and as he perhaps could have done himself a favour and kept the back-room staff to ease the transition, but he probably wanted to get his feet under the table as quick as possible and make United his own team. Yes Fergie casts a big shadow, as he had a regime for 27 years, whereby the players, staff and especially us fans followed and accepted that – Now he’s left that regime has been broken and in the modern game rebuilding something that solid takes time, but when it is rebuilt, the foundations will be even stronger! You actually think we’re close to serious decline, because we’re having a bad run of form and results… Come on mate, did you leave the Nou Camp after 90 minutes during the 1999 Champions League Final? Did you leave White Hart Lane at half-time when Spurs were 3-0 up back in 2001? Did you sell your season ticket when City beat us 6-1, because you thought we were finished? We’re United and we bounce back and always come back stronger! So get behind your manager because he won’t be going anywhere for a while.

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Believe!

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09 Jan 2014 15:32:46
Question, does anyone think moyes would have the' cahonaes' to demand the 2 (at least in this window) world class players we desperately need, given his current predicament??

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I actually think it's in his best interests not to. Part of our current predicament is that our squad is not good enough - but the rest is down to Moyes' ineptitude.

If he demands two top players and continues to under-perform he will no longer be able to use the squad as an excuse (or, to be more precise, fans and pundits will not excuse him because of the squad). I also imagine the owners will be reluctant to invest too much at the moment as I can't imagine there is not some amount of uncertainty as to whether Moyes is really the right man for the job. Why allow the manager to spend money when he may not be there at the end of the season?

My gut says he will be given funds - but nowhere near the amount being quoted. I expect one or two signings this window with more funds being made available in the summer if Moyes is able to turn our season around.

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No he won't do that. He lacks the minerals to have a go at the players. his whole body language is just terrible he looks like his team are going to lose before he comes out. There's no fire or passion which we all want to see and I think that's why a lot of us are turning on him quicker than I expected he has no charisma and he doesn't know how to get the best out of the team

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He can demand all he wants. if they aren't available, they aren't available. The big names are involved in seasons with their current clubs. if you're Koke do you leave the chance of La Liga and European success? No. Likewise for the Dortmund players (off the pace domestically but a favorable last 16 in Europe). Same can be said for anyone at Juventus, 8 points clear of Serie A. why leave when they wouldn't even be guaranteed European football next season?

I strongly believe we should be signing someone, as they're almost guaranteed to be better than what we have, but if the players can't or don't want to come then what does Moyes get by 'demanding'? Another Summer fiasco, that's what. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from a Moyes fan, but realistically and practically there's a lot of things to happen for a transfer to go through.

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I hope you're wrong redseven in that he is afraid to buy the players needed as then he will no longer have the 'it ain't my team ' excuse ( not that he has actually said this but he keeps saying it is more or less the same team as last year's which is kinda the same thing and every pundit says it for him anyway ) my opinion is that we may not see the really big signing we need this window and moyes will be sacked between now and the start of next season ( I'd be delighted to be wrong and for our great club to go on one of our famous winning streaks)and the next management team will receive the proper backing required!

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After paying £27.5m for fellaini, I will give sweet fa to spend. That was one of the worst signings we've made in recent times.

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Roonbeast - I'm not suggesting that that is the case - but it has to be playing on his mind.

He has not used the excuse the fact that it's not 'his team' to date and I don't think he will (although I do recall him saying that not being able to secure our targets in the summer has affected our performance) - but myself, pundits and many on here have defended him at times on the basis that our midfield is so poor at the moment.

If he were to spend £60m on two new midfielders and things continued to play out as they have been - I think he'd receive a hell of a lot more flack from fans, the owners and the media. He will know that.

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09 Jan 2014 15:14:58
spot on Nik legend you don't mend it if ain't broke. slowly slowly makes things go quicker and easier. Give your self time to bed in and see what needs tweaking. Moyes has shown is inexperience

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09 Jan 2014 14:52:19
with psg going in for pogba how about trying for verratti or matuidi. either would be a great signing. surely neither will want to sit on the bench during a world cup year.

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09 Jan 2014 15:21:46
None would be mOving untill Summer. Pogba would have his choice of options, with Juve willing to give him a contract. He might select chelsea or Arsenal and play against us. he still have a point to prove against us.

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Pogba will go to whoever offers him the most money.

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If we do get a chance who would you prefer?

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Think Sydney is right on this one - and at the moment that's looking very much like it will be PSG.

I'd love for us to put in a bid - but we would never pay the amount needed to sign him and in this instance I don't think we should.

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Bronzetti has come out today and said pogba will be PSG's next signing. Price will be 41-49 million. He will likely move every couple of seasons. Likewise if he were still with us he would be angling for a move every summer.

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09 Jan 2014 13:53:06
Can Someone tell me, wherz the 200 mill to spend came from?. Did the Board Reveled?. when did Daily Mirror become our owners?

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Fro higher ticket prices and merchandising next season :)

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09 Jan 2014 13:32:51
Read a piece in the Independent that claims DM is cooling his interest in Coentrao due to his poor training and lack of playing time since January's offer (due to injury of course) but none the less coupled with his occasional smoking he probably doesn't fit the Moyes type of player attitude and training wise. Interesting article. Make what you will.

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09 Jan 2014 13:27:56
Hi all, Just reading sth very interesting about Kagawa deal. What are the chance of Kagawa + cash - Koke swap deal? As far as I am aware, AM is financially struggling and Kagawa will fit better for them to win the league and cash + Japanese sponsorship would bring huge boost to AM. If I were a manager, I would certainly consider it.
I would be happy to see how good Ando - Koke - Fellaini combination may create in the MF. I think it could be far better than what we have atm. With Januzzaj on one side with Coentrau on the otherside could add further attacking chances and more dimension.
What are your views?

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09 Jan 2014 13:48:08
Mate, Its not that easy to swap players, or cash + players. Its very rare.

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Who is Ando? I assume you don't mean the KFC loving fat Brazilian Anderson because how could he and Fellaini with anybody be better than what we have now?

Also, Coentrao is a full back, if we want a winger we should sign a winger.

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Surely Ando has shat his nest for the last time, how many chances you want to give the fat unfit useless lump?

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I actually think Coentrao's versatility makes him the ideal signing. I've seen him play on the wing on numerous occasions and think that he and Evra could be both deadly and sturdy down the left for us. In the long term he'd obviously be our first choice LB - but why not play him on the wing on occasion. We don't have any better wingers at the club right now!

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Redseven, I agree, he would be a good signing IMO.

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Ok I knew some would be livid with Ando. alright I'll back off on that.

As for Coentrao, Exactly redseven, 1) he would be a long-term replacement for Evra 2) He could utilize himself on the left wing and still be better than options we have I imagine. So why not?

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09 Jan 2014 13:19:14
I don't see why all you man u fans are hitting the panic button over moyes he needs time to dismantle the old guard of man u and rebuild. It took him 10 years at everton to do so hopefully he can do t in 10 years again for you by that time you may be good enough to win the carling cup again. Lol

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09 Jan 2014 13:49:05
I Agree. But It took ten years at everton and he didn't do a rubbish. let's not make Excuse of Excuses.

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Are all everton fans 10 yr olds? Shocking attempt at banter

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No just k--mbs!

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09 Jan 2014 13:03:53
The one thing that has been bothering me for some time is the fact that Moyes got rid of most of the backroom staff when he arrived. Still makes no sense to me.

I know he wanted to be his own man and show what he can do but surely if he kept the coaches for a season or 2 he would be given time to assess the players. He would be given time to gain knowledge about each player, their attributes, potential injury concerns, attitudes as well their strengths and weaknesses and most importantly their required training methods.

I know all this is kept on record but working first hand with the coaching staff that knew these players inside out would only be beneficial to Moyes ie. David de Gea and Eric Steele. David de Gea was a shadow of a player of what he is now and he has praised the impact that Steele played in his progression.

Surely no one would of criticised Moyes for this. He would gain the knowledge about each player then once he has assessed everything then made the nessescary changes to the staff and team accordingly.

I just feel that Moyes is not getting the full potential out of each player due to the fact that he knows naught about them. Just a really silly move that excudes arrogance rather then confidence.

I think he just changed to much too quickly and especially after replacing the greatest manager in football, it has had a big impact on the whole team. Subtle changes needed to have been made. His style of coaching and tactics implemented to the coaching staff as well as the players would of been beneficial to everyone. Instead he chose to bring in coaching staff that not only knew nothing about each player but some that were vastly inexperienced. Really silly if you ask me.

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09 Jan 2014 12:53:39
{Ed002's Note - So it is no longer the right player at the right price, but any player at any price. Embarassing.

Embarrassing indeed, as has our play been not just this season but the last 10 or so games last season. I think its more the right player at almost any price as we stand.

I'll follow the team, no matter what, have stated, prior to this season, we needed a huge rebuild and quoted 6-8 players needed. I have no idea of the players we are actively interested in (other than the informative posts from ed's on here) but as an example, we value a player at £30m and bid accordingly we are advised by said players agent he would be available for £40m. My argument is pay it * 3 so 3 players an extra £30m. Signing 3 top players would not guarantee top 4 but would enhance our chances drastically and be a solid investment in our core. Doing nothing = no top 4 more disgruntled fans, harder to attract or keep top players and we still have to invest in the team at some point.

I really hope some young players are coming through like Januzaj, breath of fresh air. let's all hope for the class of 2014 to put a smile on all our faces. If we sign nobody I just hope all our top players are back and injury free.

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09 Jan 2014 12:20:29
Some interesting Tom cleverly stats from a Teamtalk.com.

The most passes Cleverley has ever completed in a top-flight game is 78. He's not even ambitious with his few passes; this season, of players with 15 or more appearances, only Ki Sung-Yueng and centre-back Laurent Koscielny have played a higher proportion of their passes sideways than Cleverley (61.4%). Intelligent passing clearly isn't what he adds to the team; and nor are goals (one in his last 27 league appearances), assists (none in his last 21 games) or particularly impressive defensive contribution (80th in the Premier League for tackles + interceptions per game this season, with 3.8). Carrick breaks up play and distributes, so it needs to be an inventive, incisive and risk-taking partner alongside him to help with chance creation.

Simply not good enough is it?

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Couldn't agree more. Without being imsulting he is simply not a United player.

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Lets not kid ourselves Simmo, Cleverley is not the answer to our midfield, but Carrick's stats are not much better than Cleverley's if at all.

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My point is we need two central midfielders, not just the one.

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Agreed. He does'nt cut it. Its time he went the way of old yeller!

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I'm 40 years old & have travelled all over the world watching utd but don't go that often any more due to work or lack of money.I remember being a child & thinking I' ll never see utd win the league.Most of the kids at school were Liverpool fans & used to take the mick but it never bothered me because I loved utd so much.If someone had said to me back then you'll topple liverpool's titles win the European cup twice & be in 2 other finals I'd of laughed in there face & called them crazy.I know it's hard to take at the moment but I'm sure we'll be back just don't know when.The real reason for this predicament in my eyes is not one persons fault it lies at the feet of everyone.The owners who I despite for taking hundreds of millions out of the club.Fergie also has to take some blame for not investing in top quality players over the last 3 or 4 years.The players also have to take a hard look at themselves & finally Moyes who I never wanted in the first place, personally he's out of his depth.No matter what though I'll always support utd no matter what even if we went down to the conference.

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Sydney

the reason for Carricks poor stats are 2 reasons:- 1) He's been injured for 6 weeks of the season.
2) When he has played he's had to do the work of two central midfielders due to Cleverly being so poor.

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I think we need two tough tackling midfielders who get up and down the pitch. Jones IMO could be one of them, but with Vidic leaving he must go to CB. So perhaps Vidal & Koke would be good. But I doubt we will get either to be honest. We also need a replacement for Ferdinand, Evra and Young/Nani. So for me we need at least five players by September. I just hope the five players are top quality.

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Simmo, you are talking bobbins. Carrick's stats for his whole MU career isn't great when you are talking about goals, assists, chances created etc etc. Carrick is as much as a weak link as Cleverley is. He is too slow in possession and RARELY intercepts balls. It's a myth. Carrick doesn't ever get stuck in. We need two quality midfielders, but due to Moyes buying Fellaini already, there will not be two coming in.

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Oh right Sydney. I must of dreamt last season when every pundit, every fan of Man United and Fergie praised him for a terrific season (probably his best since he's been at the club)
Sydney. he has been the only natural central mifielder at the club for the past three years and has had to play with all kinds of crap next to him. Cleverly, Anderson. A 40 year old left winger (Giggs), a fading Paul Scholes, even a right back in Rafael.
Your the one who's talking crap, I wonder what Carrick has done to upset you?

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Syd, are you serious? You surely can't be comparing Carrick to Cleverley!
Carrick averages over 6 tackles/ interceptions per game.
He is a significantly better passer than cleverley and much more creative. Much much more

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I pointed out something about Cleverly a long time ago and still it holds true. If you ever watch him he never looks up to see if there is a telling pass forward or even if he can turn on his marker and chooses to pass the ball back to whoever gave it to him or backwards.

He often receives passes with his back to the opposition goal in the middle of the field, which is a very odd thing for a midfielder and more how a forward plays upfront.

I think he is a hard worker and can never be slagged for being lazy on the pitch but lacks the technical or tactical ability of classy midfielders.

You always need guys like him in the squad and in a normal world he would get 15 games a season with us and some sub appearances. The only reason he is first choice is at the moment is because, fellaini is out, Jones is out, Giggs can only play once every 2 weeks, Ando is nowhere and we have no midfielders at all.

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Simmo, Carrick is the better player, but if you are using stats like goals, assists, chances created etc etc, then there isn't much between them.

My point is stats mean nothing. If those stats prove Cleverley isn't MU material, then the same should apply to Carrick who's stats are not much better, if at all better.

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09 Jan 2014 12:03:12
It seems we'd never sign a quality CM inspite of losing all the games this year.

None of Koke, Vidal, Kroos would join us, Why would they, we are no longer league leaders and wouldn't pay ridiculous sums like PSG or Monaco.

It would be more sensible to either play Powell in CM, or buy any average CM to atleast help make us to the top 4.

Darren Gibson was a far better player than Cleverley is. Even Stoke's bench warmer Glen Whelan or Sunderland's Craig Gardner are improvements to Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs.

Suggestions:
1)Cattermole- Good DM, decent passer, lacks discipline and far better than Cleverley or Giggs.
2)Borja Valero- He has been brilliant for Fiorentina & Villareal and I feel Fiorentina won't make it to Champions League.
3)Huddlestone
4)Jedinak
5)Schneiderlin



Ours midfield is the one of the poorest among the PL.

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I am getting a bit confused as to why people think we can't get players because we are 'no longer league leaders'. It just seems like another way of people being negative to me.

If you honestly think Lee Cattermole would improve us I give up.

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Rohan8 - you have had a shocker their mate.
Your actually saying that Glen Whelan and Craig Gardner are better thancleverly, anderson and Giggs. that is ridiculous, their is a reason why they play for Stoke and Sunderland. work it out.
And one or two of your suggestions for buying players is quite simply disturbing, Lee Cattemole. are you serious?

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09 Jan 2014 13:31:01
GDS2.
Many reasons,
1.Understmiating the other clubs in transfer dealings.
2. Most players are being lined up or watched by some Top clubs around the league.
3. Poor league standings
4. A amanger who hasn't even had a full cycle in the CL in almost 10 years.

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Oh but haven't you seen their stats in Football Manager ;)

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Rohan, you answered your own question. You mentioned we won't pay ridiculous sums for the top midfielders.
Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, these sums are being paid by the other ambitious clubs. Supply and demand I'm afraid. We can either invest in the team by buying the best and paying top prices, or we can carry on along the same path as we have been doing for the past few years of buying average players, rvp excluded of course.
Just loom at how much investment has gone into city, PSG, Monaco, bayern, Real, barca and you realise that we are simply not competing.

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09 Jan 2014 12:14:49
I read this on another forum and thought it worth sharing - It's a good read for any United fan and actually written by a City fan who seems to understand our club more than some of our own winging fans!

Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?

Neither.
This is one of those times where the modern media really fails us as football fans in explaining exactly what has happened at Manchester United. I often complain that they focus too much on irrelevance and not enough on the actual business of football behind the scenes and this is an example of where it could have helped.
I'm not sure what anybody else was expecting here but Man United are right about where I thought they would be. I think they'll finish higher than this but their form is somewhat predictable.
United as a Club has completely fell apart and it is the job of David Moyes to rebuild it. It has fell apart because the Club in the modern era was built entirely to Ferguson's exacting standards and methods. Every single person in every department of the Club knew what they were doing every day and what the ultimate point was.
Clubs falling apart after the movement of a Czar isn't new. United fell apart after Busby left, Liverpool got worse the more contrived the boot room system became. It's natural.
I think United fans should remember the words of Ferguson before he left. He's a proper football man, as is David Moyes, and they both know the scale of the task Moyes has undertaken and the time it will take to bear fruit. United can either studiously water their crops over time to create a vast sustainable empire once again that will provide riches for generations or they can dump nuclear waste on their land and grow tomacco.
For me, the real test of the Glazers as owners starts today. You can talk about money and whatever but to most people it's an irrelevance, United have been ultra successful and the manager has been given what he wanted. So far so good for the Glazers. The test starts right now because we discover whether they are the seasoned and patient businessmen that the Edwards family were or just another kneejerk bunch of persons who are sacking managers on ridiculous timescales.
I think Moyes has certainly made mistakes, or rather a single mistake. I think he tried to transition too quickly from Ferguson's staff to his own staff in the first team which created unneccesary pressure on himself. This can be forgiven however as I see what he was trying to accomplish. He knew that this would be a difficult period of transition and he wants to snap it as quickly as possible rather than do it piece by piece. Managers often do lack patience in transition, AVB had the same problem at Chelsea. Funnily, Ferguson did the same mistake when he first joined too.
I see people who have called Moyes unambitious because he has said that United played well when they didn't. This is a man who had a job for life in a stable Premier League team where he was beloved and he decided to pack that in and move to the most famous Club in the world and succeed the best ever manager in the game, to take on a rebuilding job the like of which has never been done in the modern era of football. Unambitious? Do me a favour.
You see, Manchester United was a club built in Ferguson's own image and everybody took their lead from him. He was an imposing figure yet if you meet him he had this working class charm that made you want to fight for him. David Moyes is a similar figure but doesn't yet covet the same respect and loyalty from everybody at Manchester United. There's no possible way that he could, that anybody could, most of the people at United were directly employed by Ferguson or employed whilst he was the manager. In time, Moyes will have the same respect bestowed on him, that's all that it needs at the minute, just some time for him to get his feet under the table.
Some fans believe that David Moyes isn't the man for United. I challenge the idea that they even understand what United is as a Club. David Moyes is pretty much the prototypical Manchester United manager, if you had to walk away and design a man who would manage them, it is him. He's fierce, he's tactically well versed, he has a superhuman work ethic, he believes in youth promotion, he plays with wingers, he inspires loyalty and fight from everybody around him. Those who don't see this have never been to Everton away under his tenure there. Moyes managed to turn that place into a lion's den in how ferocious the atmosphere was and how the team played, and make no mistake this developed under him and will wane without him, managers have a major effect on atmospheres as any United fan will tell you (or City fan for that matter), he will do the same to Old Trafford given time.
So I suppose the problem here is that fans have underestimated the mammoth of a task that Moyes has to accomplish and pundits have over-simplified it. It will take Moyes several years to get United built in his own image and it will be better off for it rather than start some roundabout of managerial changes. And I warn United fans, I'm a fan of a Club that has had probably 30 managers in the past 30 years. Once you start down this path of swapping in and out managers, you can never come back from it.
One last thing to note. I find it interesting how many people when this was announced said things like "Moyes will need a transition time" but have now decided that he should be gone in January. Transition time is a term used to denote the time it takes to sweep away the mentality of the old regime and bring in your own mentality. Essentially, how long it takes to forget the old manager and buy into the thoughts of the new even if it conflicts with what the old manager would say. For a manager who casts the shadow of Ferguson, this will take 3 or 4 years, not 3 or 4 months. Bobby Charlton, Alex Ferguson and others at United understand this so appointed a manager who can rebuild United and have the wide shoulders it requires to bear the load of expectation from the fans and media. They think they found their right man in David Moyes and all piss taking aside, so do I. I hope that they both fight his corner in the boardroom and I'm sure they will. These people understand United as a Club, understand what makes it successful and understand what makes it special.
Moyes will be fine if the fans just shut up and let him do his job.
Now, back to pissing taking.

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That's actually a very good analysis. And he's not even a united fan!

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Exactly mate, we need more supporters to back Moyes at this time!

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Great bit of reading while it
Also makes a lot of sense.No United fan ever thought we would continue on with the success we have had over the past twenty years.This season was always going to be a difficult one with everyone trying to find their feet.
Unfortunately DM has not helped himself with the silly mistakes he has made since he took over.

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This is the truth!

The negativity surrounding Moyes is driving me nuts, he hasn't had a chance to bring in any of the players we have all said we have needed for several years!

I have absolute faith that given sufficient time we will all be singing his praises with future successes.

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They are taking the p., s.
Of course they want Moyes here as he is useless.
We didn't expect Moyes to carry on the success at united? So why the hell did we appoint him as manager?
Are you also saying that city, chelsea didn't expect to carry on their success because they've got new managers?
What about barca and bayern? They've got new managers and they all seem to be doing just fine to me.
This bull about Moyes being a new manager and must be given time, is utter rubbish.

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Who would you rather have as manager then?

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09 Jan 2014 15:25:48
I would want all the managers to succeed here. But If moyes looses the next game at swansea. Pls don't even bother to come her with a banter.
Injured. No Injured. that's all part of this lovely game. Its your duty to Predict and plan.
I want a 4-0 thumping at Weekend. Can he pull this one off?

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Listen I'm not saying that we don't need results and yes a 4-0 thumping is what we need to get the players confidence up! It's your duty as a manage to predict and plan and it's our duty as a fan to support and believe!

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09 Jan 2014 11:52:11
I read this on another forum thought it worth sharing - It's a good read for any United fan and actually written by a City fan who seems to understand our club more than some of our own winging fans!

Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?

Neither.
This is one of those times where the modern media really fails us as football fans in explaining exactly what has happened at Manchester United. I often complain that they focus too much on irrelevance and not enough on the actual business of football behind the scenes and this is an example of where it could have helped.
I'm not sure what anybody else was expecting here but Man United are right about where I thought they would be. I think they'll finish higher than this but their form is somewhat predictable.
United as a Club has completely fell apart and it is the job of David Moyes to rebuild it. It has fell apart because the Club in the modern era was built entirely to Ferguson's exacting standards and methods. Every single person in every department of the Club knew what they were doing every day and what the ultimate point was.
Clubs falling apart after the movement of a Czar isn't new. United fell apart after Busby left, Liverpool got worse the more contrived the boot room system became. It's natural.
I think United fans should remember the words of Ferguson before he left. He's a proper football man, as is David Moyes, and they both know the scale of the task Moyes has undertaken and the time it will take to bear fruit. United can either studiously water their crops over time to create a vast sustainable empire once again that will provide riches for generations or they can dump nuclear waste on their land and grow tomacco.
For me, the real test of the Glazers as owners starts today. You can talk about money and whatever but to most people it's an irrelevance, United have been ultra successful and the manager has been given what he wanted. So far so good for the Glazers. The test starts right now because we discover whether they are the seasoned and patient businessmen that the Edwards family were or just another kneejerk bunch of persons who are sacking managers on ridiculous timescales.
I think Moyes has certainly made mistakes, or rather a single mistake. I think he tried to transition too quickly from Ferguson's staff to his own staff in the first team which created unneccesary pressure on himself. This can be forgiven however as I see what he was trying to accomplish. He knew that this would be a difficult period of transition and he wants to snap it as quickly as possible rather than do it piece by piece. Managers often do lack patience in transition, AVB had the same problem at Chelsea. Funnily, Ferguson did the same mistake when he first joined too.
I see people who have called Moyes unambitious because he has said that United played well when they didn't. This is a man who had a job for life in a stable Premier League team where he was beloved and he decided to pack that in and move to the most famous Club in the world and succeed the best ever manager in the game, to take on a rebuilding job the like of which has never been done in the modern era of football. Unambitious? Do me a favour.
You see, Manchester United was a club built in Ferguson's own image and everybody took their lead from him. He was an imposing figure yet if you meet him he had this working class charm that made you want to fight for him. David Moyes is a similar figure but doesn't yet covet the same respect and loyalty from everybody at Manchester United. There's no possible way that he could, that anybody could, most of the people at United were directly employed by Ferguson or employed whilst he was the manager. In time, Moyes will have the same respect bestowed on him, that's all that it needs at the minute, just some time for him to get his feet under the table.
Some fans believe that David Moyes isn't the man for United. I challenge the idea that they even understand what United is as a Club. David Moyes is pretty much the prototypical Manchester United manager, if you had to walk away and design a man who would manage them, it is him. He's fierce, he's tactically well versed, he has a superhuman work ethic, he believes in youth promotion, he plays with wingers, he inspires loyalty and fight from everybody around him. Those who don't see this have never been to Everton away under his tenure there. Moyes managed to turn that place into a lion's den in how ferocious the atmosphere was and how the team played, and make no mistake this developed under him and will wane without him, managers have a major effect on atmospheres as any United fan will tell you (or City fan for that matter), he will do the same to Old Trafford given time.
So I suppose the problem here is that fans have underestimated the mammoth of a task that Moyes has to accomplish and pundits have over-simplified it. It will take Moyes several years to get United built in his own image and it will be better off for it rather than start some roundabout of managerial changes. And I warn United fans, I'm a fan of a Club that has had probably 30 managers in the past 30 years. Once you start down this path of swapping in and out managers, you can never come back from it.
One last thing to note. I find it interesting how many people when this was announced said things like "Moyes will need a transition time" but have now decided that he should be gone in January. Transition time is a term used to denote the time it takes to sweep away the mentality of the old regime and bring in your own mentality. Essentially, how long it takes to forget the old manager and buy into the thoughts of the new even if it conflicts with what the old manager would say. For a manager who casts the shadow of Ferguson, this will take 3 or 4 years, not 3 or 4 months. Bobby Charlton, Alex Ferguson and others at United understand this so appointed a manager who can rebuild United and have the wide shoulders it requires to bear the load of expectation from the fans and media. They think they found their right man in David Moyes and all piss taking aside, so do I. I hope that they both fight his corner in the boardroom and I'm sure they will. These people understand United as a Club, understand what makes it successful and understand what makes it special.
Moyes will be fine if the fans just shut up and let him do his job.
Now, back to pissing taking.

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Is that some plea from a city fan so we will stick with DM?

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Totally missed the point then haven't you?

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09 Jan 2014 11:29:07
What really puzzles me at the moment is that David Moyes keeps saying that the players who he is apparantly after will not be available until Summer, so their may not be any players to come in until then.
Well guess what David.if we do not make the top 4 which is looking more and more possible then are his targets going to want to join us if we are not playing Champions League football.
The answer is no they won't.
I just don't buy this crap about players not being available in the January tranfer window, they are available for the right price and add to the fact that United have 3-4 players that they can use as bait. Players like Nani, Anderson and Young.
Adam Llanna is a perfect example. Yohan Cabaye is another. These players would jump at the chance of playing for us.
Fabio Contreo is just a no brainer, that deal should of already been done. He would be perfect for us.
Maybe if we get these players in which will improve our side and would give us a better chance of getting into the top 4 then maybe we can then look at these so called big signings in the summer which I have my doubts about anyway.
I just don't know where Moyes is going with these silly comments, everything he says at the moment is doom and gloom.
Add to that the fact that everytime we play terrible and get beat he keeps coming out and saying that we played well and dominated the game.
His substitutions are terrible, pulling off Carrick who is the only creative mifielder we have and leaving that useless clown Cleverly on.
Even when RVP and Rooney are injured he refuses to give Kagawa a go in the middle behind what forward is playing whether its Welbeck or Hernandez.
We won't give Zaha a game, then he refuses three clubs who want to sign him on loan, So what does he want Zaha to do?
I wanna support him and give him a chance but he really isn't doing himself any favours at the moment.

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But as long as you stay positive and keep the 'belief' then it'll all be fine!

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"We won't give Zaha a game, then he refuses three clubs who want to sign him on loan, So what does he want Zaha to do?"

Wilfred is there to service Dave's daughter.

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Carloto

Yes. he must be at United for a reason. not sure it's a football reason?

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Zaha wants a London loan move and Moyes doesn't want to send him to London for obvious reasons. It's well known as to why Moyes wants him to go out on loan and it's only partly for footballing reasons.

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09 Jan 2014 11:04:25
Due to the uncertainty surround the club this season there is room for speculation. The question has to be asked 'where will we be without Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic, Rooney & RVP' next season? As it stands, all 5 are gone. Personally I want to thank Evra, Ferdinand and Vidic for their service to the club but I also think its time to see them go. Rooney I don't think will sign a new deal unless we make top 4 and sign some real world beaters in the summer and RVP won't stay unless Moyes alters his training regime. If you add to this the deadwood in the squad: Young, Anderson etc we are struggling massively. I think the summer will be the biggest squad overhaul the club has ever seen and it will be interesting to see where we go from there.

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I think you answered your own question there. If we can't hold onto our best two players, why would any top class players want to join?

As I've said before players are motivated by two things: money and success. Rooney hasn't signed a new contract because he doubts Moyes ability to secure success, and anyone who thinks the Glazers are going match the big boys in monetary terms is living in cloud cuckoo.

Where can we go? Down

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Why are Rooney & RvP gone exactly?

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Sydney,

Because the press said so, so it must be true, don't you read the Daily Star?

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GDS, I agree. If MU refused to sell Rooney to an EPL rival last summer, they will do it again. And RvP has years left on his current deal. Even if they both wanted to leave, they won't.

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Did rvp not leave arsenal to win trophies, will Rooney sign a new contract if we don't make cl football.
It may well be speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if both wanted out if we finished outside the top 4

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I think in the case of both Rooney and rvp, as they are not youngsters, they might seek clubs where they can see success coming short term. United are not in that bracket, so there is a chance it will happen.

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Jred, NM, they have contracts at MU and MU have shown that they will not sell them. If they both want to leave and that's still a big if, then I still don't see MU allowing them to leave. If we fell out of the top four this season, then both will be there next season getting us back in.

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Syd
As I said a few times last year I never thought Rooney would leave but if he still hasn't signed a contract and pushes for a move I wouldn't be surprised if United let him go .
If he doesn't sign a contract I think he might just run it down.
With rvp a lot will depend on his relationship with moyes

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It may now be relevant for me to disclose something I heard the other day about RvP. When everyone expected him to return for the Spurs game including myself, someone on another site said that RvP is still around five weeks away from returning. At the time I thought he was mistaken, but the Spurs game has been and he still doesn't look like returning anytime soon. Did matey know something we don't? I hope he's wrong, but wouldn't that indicate a recurrence of injury?

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Jred, Rooney was open to a move to Chelsea and the club refused it. Why wouldn't they do that again? If he runs his contract down which I expect he will do, then he will be here next season. I doubt RvP is best pleased with DM taking over, but I highly doubt he will want to leave after settling his family up here. If RvP and Rooney were both fully fit and had been all season, then we wouldn't be where we are now. We need them pair back and playing.

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Because it is all doom and gloom and why don't we just cut our wrist now and get it over LOL. who knows maybe the club will also disapear or maybe we will change the name or the colors.

Also a rumor that there is an asteroid currently heading for earth and projected to land on the 50 yard line at Old trafford and we might have to play our home games at carrington next year. I really doubt we can attract top players if we have to play our home games at Carrington, what do you guys think?

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Sydney
I explained to you several times why United wouldn't let Rooney go last season, I'm not going over it again but I think things will be different with only 1 year on his contract.
However I expect him to sign a new contract or run it down.

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If Rooney was open to a move to PSG, then I doubt he would be a MU player now. If SAF was still manager, then I am not sure he would be a MU player now. Whether Rooney signs or whether he runs his contract down he will be here next season won't he? So will RvP. I don't think MU will sell to a rival, but after the season we are currently having, I doubt he will be sold.

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09 Jan 2014 10:51:10
I've been a United supporter my whole life but also supported Aberdeen in my youth when Fergie was manager.

Just thought I would compare Aberdeen's record pre, post and during the Fergie era to see if it suggested what United supporters could be in for.

In the 20 years B.F. (Before Fergie) Aberdeen averaged 6th in the league and didn't win it once. In the 8 years Fergie was manager they averaged 2nd and won 3 times (and also won the European Cup Winners Cup on that magic night in Gothenburg in 1983 when the mighty Real Madrid were put to the sword). Since he left they have averaged 4th (in a league which is now only 12 teams) and haven't won it since.

The great man achieved similar improvement at United and has succeeded in papering over the cracks for a few years now. Now he's gone, however, only serious money in the hands of a manager with the requisite track record and gravitas will prevent United enduring the same fate as Aberdeen.

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Thanks, it hasn't been lost on me but has on some others. I recall watching the night Aberdeen won the ECWC and enjoyed it.

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09 Jan 2014 09:24:36
Just wanted to gauge peoples opinions as to why we have spent no money so far. It's been reported DM has 200m burning an hole his pocket, now while I don't believe he has 200m at his disposal for one second, he surely has significant funds given the turnover of our club. His excuse so far is that the world class players we want are not available in the winter, it's my opinion that this is ridiculous. There are players that I'm sure would be attainable at a price, players that we may not see as marquee but would definitely be an upgrade on our options.

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{Ed002's Note - So it is no longer the right player at the right price, but any player at any price. Embarassing.}

No Ed you put words in my mouth there. I never said that, nor did I name particular players. So a player like Cabaye who would be attainable and is a definite improvement on Cleverly & Ando is not a good move? I travel to every game ed & would like to see my money invested. I fail to see how that is "embarrassing"

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09 Jan 2014 10:17:01
Some People don't rate Cabaye. All they want is vidal, koke (21 years old, yet to prove himself in a tough league) etc, who are quiet difficult to get in This window.

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09 Jan 2014 10:25:40
Have to agree with you. If David Moyes is waiting for World Class players to become available, then he and us potentially have a long and possibly fruitless wait on our hands - World Class players are simply put. rarely available.

What we should be doing, is looking for players who are not necessarily 'world class'. simply look for players who would improve us in a particular area. If one pops up that is World Class - great! Let's make an approach, but it shouldn't be the entire focus.

Cabaye is a great example. Is he World Class? No, I personally don't think he is, but what he would do is significantly improve us in central midfield. Everyone appreciates that our squad is thin on genuine quality, but to try and repair that by simply targeting players such as Fabregas, Diego Costa, etc. is madness in my eyes (if that is indeed the case of course!). For me, it's about constantly making small steps forward and simply targeting/acquiring 'better' players that what we currently have, World Class or not.

WF Red Devil

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UWS

I can see exactly what you are saying but am sure the club have their targets in mind and can't just jump from one player to another.

Its still early in the window and its not as easy i'm sure as many of us think to just sign someone. Most of the time especially in Jan a lot of the deals are done on the last day.

Take for example if we have identified Contrao he wants out by all accounts Madrid don't want to sell cause they have no cover IF they get cover in they might then they will more likely do a deal.

Im with you we need new players signed but they have to be the right players and even though Cabaye might well be better than Clevs or Ando that doesn't automatically make him a must sign for me.

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09 Jan 2014 10:49:21
DevilDust.

I am not sure, How much time it takes to complete a transfer, One hour. one day. one week. or even months. But If we fail to bring in another 2-3 fresh legs into the team. We would be out of Top4, which would mean, we ll loose the existing bunch of good players.

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WF

Completely disagree mate it is signing players who are not top class that has us in this mess.

Young Anderson Nani Smalling Valencia and Hernandez with the exception of Nani maybe none of them were ever going to be world class or take us to the next level. We bought average and now surprise surprise we have at best an average team. We spent not far off 100m on them players and NONE would regularly play for any top European club.

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There are two scenarios, the board don't trust him and are waiting until the end of the season or the players that we want aren't going to be available so we are getting buy with what we have. Neither scenario are particularly desirable and neither make us any stronger. We will have to see what happens in the next two and a half weeks.

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I think Madrid are trying to drive the price up. They have Marcelo as first choice and Arbeloa for back up and probably a couple of youngsters like Nacho so I don't think they need a replacement, they just want to recoup as much of their original £25 million as possible.

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I agree with almost everything you've said guys. Devil Dust- I didn't mean that as in he's a must sign, it was more an example to the Ed of what we could acquire for a not silly fee. My point is if DM is waiting while summer it doesn't help our immediate plight, we need players in now otherwise I honestly fear we will miss out on european football next year and then we won't be able to attract the world class players DM speaks of, so for me his argument is invalid.

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Attitude

Like I said I completely agree we need players in that is a must or we have have no hope of top 4.

I was just pointing out that some transfers can be straight forward (not usually for us though) but others especially in Jan and especially when news comes out we have 200m can be drawn out.

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DD, that is not an amount that will be spent in one transfer window. It's an amount (if accurate) that will be spent over 3-4 transfer windows.

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The issue is always about signing what is right for United. God help him if he made some middle of the road signing, people will say we are not ambitious, we have no money, the owners don't want to spend, Moyes is turning us into everton, moyes can't attract top players, etc etc I hope you get the drift.

It is open hunting season on United from many sectors including the media, time to circle the wagons and stick together and I am 100% sure if the players we want are available we will spend the money, no question about that.

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GCU, if we fail to qualify for the CL this year do you think we will be in any better position to sign the 'right' players this summer?

If Moyes can't convince our captain and his talisman to sign new contracts, do you think he can entice top class talent at other clubs to join us?

I think people are severely mistaken if they think it's a choice between top class players in the summer or lesser talents now. As far as I'm concerned we can sign players like Cabaye now or sign them in the summer. Players like Reus, Gundogan and Koke are the stuff of fantasy.

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09 Jan 2014 15:52:40
DD,

I do see your point mate, I honestly do. But on the other hand, Vidic wasn't World Class when we bought him, neither was Ronaldo, or Evra or Carrick, to offer just a handful of examples. It's swings and roundabouts, and some you get right, some you don't. But what I don't think you can do is remain static in the hope that a World Class player becomes available, because even if he does, do you not think Barca, Real, Bayern (and possibly even PSG/Monaco to a reason) might be interested, and the chances are then, this available World Class player won't be coming to us in the end anyway as we'll be out-priced, etc.

What I am saying is if that a player becomes available and it's a fair assumption to say that that player would improve us in a certain department, fits the ethos/criteria that we're looking for, and they're available at a reasonable price, then we should make moves to ascertain him. I for one would be happy with a Yohan Cabaye, Luke Shaw and Inigo Martinez transfer window. Are they World Class? No. But they'd certainly improve us and strengthen their respective departments.

WF Red Devil

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Danny

Nonsense and scaremongering is not going to influence me mate, might work with some of the younger contributors.

If we don't finish top 4 it might be a factor with a few players but not even relevant in transfer dealings.

Answer me how did Moutinho, Falcao, Rodriguez, Kongogbia etc etc end up at Monaco with no CL and a stadium worthy of a provincial team.

How did city get here, go back and see who they signed when they were not even a factor in england.

How did PSG assemble their team, they have sucked for years and were never in CL competition.

You are very naive if you believe these guys(footballers) who mostly are not the brightest move around because of cl football, but it is fashionable to say so anyway to force moves. Think Money, Football, Club, Fame, Cars, Women and not sure in what order it is.

Look at Roma they signed Benathia and strootman, who both were touted by many on this site as top class and united quality. Do you see roma in CL football this year?

Did you ever think maybe Vidic has been offered a contract at lower wages than he is currently on because of his age and recurring injuries.

I am assuming you are referring to Rooney as our talisman, you know my views on him, he wants mega money and will go to the highest bidder.

Look around, you think we are the only club that has players not renewing their contracts and waiting on better money. Actually we rarely have this issue.

Laurent Blanc must be a bad coach and unable to attract players because matuidi, who is a 100% first 11 player for them is running down his contract and will look at his options and you can bet money will have a lot to do with it.

Klop must be the worse manager out there if you look at how many are leaking from his side. I mean we are talking the stars of Dortmund running down their contracts and moving on.

If you are going to post stuff at least do it with some objectivity. If you want moyes out just say it and don't window dress it with fear mongering.

BTW Players leaving Dortmund and PSG does not change my opinion of those managers one bit as I don't know anything about each individual case.

Did you ever think what playing for united is worth to players in terms of endorsements and non football related income given the size of the club and global exposure.

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09 Jan 2014 09:22:46
Didn't Moyes try to sign Moutinho whilst at Everton? Or is my memory going? Does this explain the latest rumours. Ed what is the likelihood of Moutinho moving? Normally none but the only reason I ask is because I remember a couple of months back about a situation that had come about at Monaco that meant Falcao etc or one of the arrivals would have to be sold. I don't remember the details of it though or if anything has changed.

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Unless he is unhappy in Monaco I can't see him moving. They're 3 points from PSG at the top of Ligue 1 so I can't see him being unhappy. We should of gone for him before he went there but I think at that time Moyes was on holiday. Moutinho is one of my favourite players and would be my favourite player to replace Scholes in terms of passing and guile. We would still need a box to box player but signing him would be huge. This one isn't going to come off though.

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09 Jan 2014 09:02:05
Despite his public bravado David Moyes must be feeling really stressed. The shambles of last Summers transfer Market has been followed by a string of poor performances and defeats. The League is beyond us and even qualifying for the Champions Cup by finishing 4th is looking difficult. We've also had widespread stories of dressing room unrest and who knows what SAF and other senior people are saying.
Some of this Moyes brought on his own head and in retrospect I wonder would he have been quite so savage in getting rid of all the back room staff. I hope he has a clear vision and plan and that the current pressures do not blow him off course and result in some poor January signings such as Fellaini. It would be much easier for fans if we were convinced that there was a clear plan, if that were the case then it would be much easier to bear the current unhappy form.

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08 Jan 2014 23:46:04
Wrote a long post and my fat thumbs and small phone ruined it. !

I do run my own business so whilst I don't claim to be a finance expert (I employ accountants for that!) I can hold a conversation on the subject.

Hate is perhaps too emotive a word and in truth I don't blame them for taking advantage and should really direct my feelings towards those that opened the door.

City's owners are by far and away the best and not just for the investment in the team, they're also investing in the infrastructure and community and their cash trickles down to grass roots via transfer fees.

Obviously they are the exception, but I don't think Ken Bates is the rule and there is plenty of middle ground. I'm sure you know plenty about who's been sniffing around United but I'm also sure more would come out of the woodwork should the club become available.

Personally I think FFP should be all about encouraging money into the game and discouraging it from leaving the game via agents, mortgages, etc. And this just demonstrates to me that FFP is a mere political ruling to keep the money rolling in for the powerful elite - and I don't exclude United from this.

But hey ho, it's a business like any other. But a very unique business where "customers" don't jump ship and do sometimes get a raw deal as a result. No other type of business could increase their prices by as much as United in recent years and get away without me even thinking about looking elsewhere.

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09 Jan 2014 00:15:17
Some ridiculous article linking us with a move for Xavi Hernandez

Thought everyone might just get a good chuckle out of it

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And Moutinho who only just signed for Monaco. One of my favourite players though.

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Xavi will fit our over 30's policy!
As for moutinho, we should have bought him before he went to Monaco, amazing player. I'm in Portugal and the Portuguese papers have been reporting this rumour.

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09 Jan 2014 00:07:53
firstly, I should apologize for the length of this post and while i'm at it, my poor writing skills. But I look forward to any debate that ensues and your thoughts on how we (as a club) should go on.

secondly, i'm not going to get into the arguement of whether moyes should stay or go? because I believe its pretty redundant. when SAF retired he made a point of saying to stick with the manager, and that was a point meant, not to not just us fans but the board as well.
I think it was always expected that we would struggle post-fergie (although I don't think it was expected to be quite this bad) so, for me, unless at the end of the season we are in the bottom half of the table, there is no real risk of moyes getting the sack, as I don't think we are simply not that kind of club.

ok, so now on to the actual reason for my post
i read that moyes is very disappointed with the effort that some players have put in since SAFs departure, and has completely changed our outlook on how/ who we scout, much as he did at everton.
moyes has a very detailed, long term plan for the direction for our great club, at its core are 3 sets of lists, who he wants to stay, who will be leaving and who he wants to be brought in.
now anyone who has read the (very revealing) article on moyes's scouting system at Everton will know that these lists, the latter list in particular, are kept extremely secretive with only a handful of people knowing their contents (so don't believe anyone who claims to be 'in the know')
the scouting system is said to take over several rooms with dozens of detailed dossiers on each player, and dozens of players for each position. unfortunately for us, this would mean that any report linking us and saying we're looking at a player would probably be true but in reality, would be meaningless as we would also be seriously looking at another (min) 3-4 players in the same position.

so I thought I would do my own evaluation, but given how this latter list would have numerous possibilities, and be subject to the playing style and formation Moyes would want us to implement in the future, I have chosen to focus on our short term options given our current squad

Players to KEEP
this is prob an obvious list, however it is also a very short one, which only goes to show the amount of quality we really have

De Gea- along with Rooney, he has been one of this seasons best players and if it weren't for him we would be a lot closer to the relegation zone, has really proved that he is one of the best young goal keepers in the world
Evans- probably our most consistent defender of recent years, really just needs someone to play at center back consistently to form a decent partnership with
Smalling- keep probably more for lack of other options, versatile player but should really stick to one position or risk becoming another John O'Shea
Jones- player with huge potential, needs to stick with one position either as central defender or defensive midfielder to really kick on to next level
Rafael- great little right back, improves every year, starting to form a good connection down the right with Valencia
Fletcher- since his return has prob been our best central midfielder, if he can stay fit he deserves to stay, I would also name him captain for next season with Vidic and Evra likely leaving
Fellaini- will be argued that injuries effected form and needed time to settle, but really will only stay as it would be to embarrassing for Moyes to sell so soon
Januzaj- one of our best players this season, which says a lot, one of very few creative players and genuine threat
Valencia- back to old form but needs to improve on his crossing, like Smalling, makes this list for lack of other options, he may be simply better than Young and Nani but that is not saying much. going forward however, his traditional style may see his role diminish next year depending on who comes in.
Rooney- here's where I eat my humble pie, as I was one of those calling to sell him, he has really carried the team thus far. should be made captain next season in Fletchers absence
Welbeck- has shown that when played consistently as a true striker that he can a job there, but needs to work on his finishing
Hernandez- our little pea hasn't scored as many so far this season, but that is more to do with lack of service than any thing else, his touch has been poor but given more game time this will return. wanted elsewhere but is one of the best natural poacher/finishers around at the moment

Players to GO
as many of you are by now, growing bored of reading this shappy length rambling of mine, I have tried to clump together certain players to avoid repeating myself

Vidic, Rio, Evra and Giggs- truth be told, all bar Vidic could have retired last season, unfortunately age has caught up with them and they are not the players they once were, sadly, it is right that they bow out now and give others the chance.

players who could be with us next season but likely to move on
Buttner- eyebrows were raised when we first bought him and has never really been given a good run of games, not seen to be up to utd standard
Kagawa- could be a great player for us, not had a happy experience in england as often played out of position, could be a bargaining tool for other players wanted (gundagon, subotic etc)
Carrick- this will be controversial but although one of our best players last season, age is not on his side and his slow play may prevent us playing a more pressing style that will be needed. has just signed contract extension so if he stayed it would prob be his last year anyway, if he does go this summer he would not be short of suitors as is still a very good player
Nani- one of the most infuriating players ever, I have long argued to sell him but has recently signed a new contract. wanted by Juve, could be used to get Vidal (here's hoping)
RVP- another controversial one as along with Rooney and De Ge, is our only other world class player but, age and injuries are not on his side. Strangely, for the same reasons I wanted us to sell Rooney in the summer, his departure could benefit the team (esp if we buy reus as his replacement) as would be able to play with a more fluid style with one striker up front (rooney) instead of accommodating both players in an outdated 4-4-2 come 4-4-1-1, this would also allow other players more game time in their preferred positions and give Rooney the incentive to sign a contract extension as he will once again be the 'main man' and would see us making the changes needed to challenge again

finally, players who simply are not good enough, and should be nowhere near the team.
Anderson, Young and Fabio- if I am honest if Nani had not signed a contract extension he would be here too, these players are not upto standard, not getting game time, showing Moyes has no faith in them. the only trouble would be finding buyers
Honourable Mention- Cleverly- won't be sold, but really should. he cannot pass, cannot tackle, cannot shoot, he can't even head the ball he really offers very little other than the willingness to run into space, unfortunately once he gets the ball he has no idea what to do with it and often passes it right back. He would be very easily replaced, but will probably kept as a squad player


to help bring on and develop our core squad, I would play the following as the main team for this season

De Gea
(lindergaard)

Raphael Smalling Evans Buttner
(varela) (keane) (vidic) (blackett)

Valencia Fletcher Jones Januzaj
(zaha) (cleverly)(fellaini) (lingard)

Rooney
(kagawa/powell)
RVP/Hernandez
(welbeck)

zaha will prob go out on loan, and lingard and powell remain so but that is probably our best bet to give game time and develop players needed for next season, then if you were to (ideally) bring in say, Garay, Shaw, Koke, Vidal and Reus (moving januzaj to the right) you would have a very good, young and importantly dangerous team
*
De Gea
* *(amos) * *
Rafael Evans Garay Shaw
(varela)(smalling)*(keane)(blackett)
Jones
*(fletcher)*
Vidal Koke
* (fellaini) (powell) *
Januzaj * Reus
(valencia) Rooney (zaha)
(hernandez/welbeck)

This would also mean we would have the personnel to revert to 4-4-2 if needed by bringing on midfielder a striker or pushing say, powell further forward.

sorry again for the long post

dags

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Dags, very detailed post. One thing I'll say about moyes's scouting and transfer track record at United, fellaini.
If all the secret dossiers unearthed the gem that is fellaini, then god help us.

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09 Jan 2014 10:22:49
I am not sure on this. Does Woodword owe an explanation to the board and Moyes for not getting the transfer done?
If I am right, The only two we were linked with solid concrete offers were Fabrigas and Herrera.
Thiago was sure off to Bayern and I don't remeber we were linked with any LB apart from 30 year old baines who would replace another 32 year old Evra?

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Great summation. I would definitely switch RVP for Rooney on your list. RVP is a great focal point and we can play any system with him. Rooney playing means others are unsure where they should be and he effects too many of our players natural game, (although poor at the minute).

I would also have liked Moyes to have given Anderson a chance, a lot of people blame Hernandez's poor form on not enough games. Anderson is the only midfielder we have that tries to attack the Utd way, he may not have great games but he hasn't played enough. He ensures we create a lot more going forward as he means the defenders have to come off their man to stop him. However we are so poor defensively Moyes obviously doesn't think it is worth risking. Shame because Carrick and Clevs are like two walls, bouncing the ball back and forth and no movement forward whatsoever. The two worst pairing in the top 10 and the key reason we have no space/time further up and why Rooney keeps playing on their toes.

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Nomidfield, I will admit, to me, the purchase of fellaini was an absolute panic buy as if he really wanted him, we would have just paid the release clause and got him cheaper. also I don't think this new transfer approach can really be judged by the summers (or even this jans) signings (or lack there of).
when SAF left, he wanted to leave us in a position where we could challenge, and if you look at the players he had lined up and were all but confirmed, they would have addressed our biggest problem areas, garay coming in would sure up defense and thiago and strootman would have been a massive improvement in midfield. I get and respect why moyes felt he had cancel these transfer, and be his own man, but we are feeling the repercussions of this decision.
RMG, I accept what you are saying as it is the very reason I championed having RVP in that role and selling Rooney back in the summer. But given the change in Rooney's attitude and the fact that he (with De Gea) has carried the team thus far, and because of RVPs history with injuries, then Rooney is probably the better choice to keep long term. Had we got lewandowski though, things would have very different, but instead moyes decided to keep rooney.

as for the equalizer, I cannot decide if I think he is really quite shrewd who got unlucky or is just completely out of depth. given his history, he is clearly a very clever bloke so I would like to believe it is the first of these two options. doing a double deal for fellaini and baines could make sense, instead of being fleeced twice you could potentially pay less as a pair, after all fellaini had had a release clause so it would only be baines value to haggle down unfortunately this back fired, as it infuriated everton who then charged more to just get fellaini.
similarly, the persuit of fabrigas/ herrera was an odd one, utd are known for being quiet on transfers so to go for fabrigas so publically, to me, suggests that herrera was the true target, and by getting barca to publically say we won't fab to stay, it shut down the potential threat of a bidding war for herrera with barca, which would mean we would have a stronger hand to negotiating for him but then again why not just pay the extra and guarantee it in the first place?

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