Manchester United Rumours Archive December 15 2012


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(single word yields best result)

15 Dec 2012 22:06:19
Would love united to make a move for Benat or Kara for tromso, any eds know if they are available? Cheers. {Ed007's Note - Kara Mbodj will join Genk in January. Atletico Madrid are keen on a move for Benat if they can achieve CL football next season.}

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15 Dec 2012 18:45:24
We all know there have been some dodgy performances this season.
But lets face it 14 wins from 17 games is fantastic.
And some say saf has lost it and should be replaced.

Will red

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I had my doubts when he brought on Giggs and Scholes

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15 Dec 2012 20:53:33
we had already won the game and need to rest players for a busy festive fixture list.
giggs and scholes can still do a job late in the game,
although I admit they didnt do much today.
3 points, 6 points clear

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Each year has its own dynamics and it is possible to win the league in different ways. It is Xmas and we are 6 points clear not playing brilliantly and with a team that hasn't gelled like the great ones of the past but I would take this and hope that a few new players in January are the elements that make gold out of base metal ( with some notable exceptions - hasn't RVP been a great buy - I'd like to win this year just for him)

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I would rather have seen Powell and Tunners get some minutes instead of Scholes and Giggs tbh.


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We will never all agree who should be playing and who should come on but i find it amazing that he has so many doubters after all he has done and where we are now.
Too many spoilt fans.
With another manager we could be where liverpool are.

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Absolutely correct Dan, It getting to a point now where I'm sickened every time I see Scholes, and especially Giggs coming on. These 2 are legends who are tarnishing their good name.

J Bones.

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15 Dec 2012 10:47:29
Any truth that Wigan want Angelo Henriquez on loan?

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Its a possibility. Could be good for him.

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Yes thats fact!!
Saf is pleased with his aduptation of english climate nd game. So he has allowed the loan to rapid his progress and become available for left flank as genuine option after gaining valuable experience.

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Henriquez has been touted as a possible temporary replacement for Kone who will be going to the African Cup of Nations

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15 Dec 2012 07:50:31
{Ed002's Note - From reading a number of recent messages it seems that this would be an appropriate time to reprise the FFFR post:

The Demystification of the Financial Fair Play Rules (FFPR)
I will try and simplify and summarise the FFPR and give examples where I can.
Putting aside all of the “mother country” fluff, the fundamental purpose of the FFPR is to:
(1) Ensure that clubs are operating within their means with transparent financial reporting. Example: Arsenal has debt which they can manage from the money they make as a club (good). Anzhi has a very low turnover given the amount of money they spend on players through donations from wealthy owners (bad).
(2) Protect creditors. Example: When Portsmouth went bust they owed money for players (the extreme case being Glen Johnson who had moved to Liverpool but Portsmouth still owed Chelsea for), money to local businesses (tradesmen who had worked at the ground, newsagents etc.), utility companies, the police et al (bad).
(3) Encourage responsible spending. Example: Liverpool under Hicks and Gillett borrowed money against the value of the club in order to buy players (bad).
(4) Protect the long-term viability of European club football. Example: They want to avoid the scenario of clubs entering administration or going out of business.
The FFPR apply to all UEFA club competitions and will actively come in to force from the end of June 2014 taking account of the financial monitoring period (the season just finished) and the two prior reporting periods (the two seasons before that). So when they first start, the FFPR will look at the 2013/2014 returns, and they will give consideration to the 2011/12 and 2012/13 figures.
I should make clear that it is not the full accounts of a club that are being considered, but just the “relevant” income and the “relevant” expenses. “Excluded” expenses are critical to the FFPR calculations. To this end, all clubs will need to effectively produce two sets of accounts. An audited set which are provided to Companies House and the relevant revenue organisations, and a second audited return laying out the “relevant” income and the “relevant” expenses for the purpose of the FFPR.
Relevant Income
(1) Match day gate receipts. Example: The money made by the club from paying fans attending games. This includes income from cup games when played away from home – where a proportion of the gate money goes to the away side.
(2) Broadcasting rights. Example: Television income for games, money provided for radio broadcasting.
(3) Income from commercial activities. Example: Sales of bobble hats and rattles, club shop income, licensed income (e.g. DVD sales). In the future you can expect to see income from other media (e.g. streaming of games on a pay-per-view basis to the web and phones) increase.
(4) Prize money. Example: income from the Premier League, Champions League etc..
(5) Sponsorship. Example: Shirt sponsors (Standard Chartered, Samsung etc.), shirt manufactures (Adidas, Warrior etc.).
(6) Advertising. Example: Companies who buy time on video screens during games or hoardings at the stadium.
(7) Other operating income. Example: Payments made to a club for playing friendly matches in the Far East.
(8) Income from transfers: Example: All income from the sale of a player regardless of payment being due to previous clubs, the player himself etc. as they are allowable expenses which will later be deducted.
(9) Excess proceeds on the sale of tangible fixed assets. Example: The money Arsenal from converting part of Highbury in to apartments and selling them.
(10) Other income: Example: Interest on investments.
Relevant Expenses
(1) The costs of running the business (confusingly referred to as “the cost of sales” by accountants etc.). Example: Wages, ground maintenance, lighting, telephones, IT equipment, travel costs, policing costs etc..
(2) Employee related benefits and associated costs. Example: Costs of providing insurance, dental care, medical, employer NI contribution, housing, loyalty bonuses etc..
(3) Other operating expenses. Example: Payments for advertising, legal fees, agent fees, accounting fees, payments to players in relation to transfers, payments to player’s previous clubs, etc..
(4) Amortisation or transfer costs. Example: The total amount of money paid to another club to transfer a player or, if a club decides to do so, the amortised cost for that year (where a club is spreading the cost of the transfer out over the length of his contract for accounting purposes).
(5) Finance costs. Example: Bank charges, interest on loans etc..
(6) Dividends. Example: The owners may take a dividend from the profits a club makes as income.
Excluded Expenses
(1) Depreciation of tangible fixed assets. Example: The loss, if any, in value of the stadium, cars, IT equipment etc..
(2) Costs associated with the intangible fixed assets (other than player registrations). Example: goodwill, franchises, trademarks, copyrights etc..
(3) Expenditure on youth development activities. Example: All youth development expenses (housing, schooling, travel, medical etc.) are excluded from the calculations.
(4) Community development activities. Example: Outreach programmes, donations to the local community and charities, provision of equipment etc..
(5) Tax expenses. Example: Monies paid to the Inland Revenue, VAT etc..
(6) Finance costs related to construction of tangible fixed assets. Example: The interest on the £300M loan to build a new stadium.
(7) Interest payments on old loans (pre June 1, 2011). Example: Any interest due on a loan taken out for whatever purpose before June 1, 2011 is excluded from the calculations.
(8) Certain expenses from non-football operations. Example: This does not really apply to British clubs, but in other European countries clubs are often “sporting clubs” and have basketball, football, hockey team etc. all under one business.
The Calculation
FFPR calculates from a club’s “relevant” income and the “relevant” expenses whether the club is running at a surplus (profit) or deficit (loss) within a Monitoring Period (e.g. 2013/14). From this the FFPR decides if a club has met the “break even” requirement or not. This is not met if the “relevant” expenses exceed the “relevant” income by more than 5M euros (an acceptable deviation).
If the club exceeds this acceptable deviation, the owners of a club may contribute toward correcting it to a maximum of 45M euro over a rolling three year period (30M euro from 2015/16 on). Example: If Club X made a loss of 50M euro in 2013/14 due to the purchase of players, the calculation will ignore the first 5M euro and assume an owner contribution of 45M euro and there would not be an issue. However, for the two years following, there would be no allowable owner contribution as the full allocation had been used. If Club Y made a loss of 30M euro in 2013/14 due to the purchase of players, the calculation will ignore the first 5M euro and assume an owner contribution of 25M euro and there would not be an issue. But in this case, for the two years following, there would still be 20M euro allowable as owner contribution to cover further losses.
The Punishment
The Threat: If a club has been determined to have violated the “break even” requirement for a season it may be excluded from the next season’s UEFA competitions.
Likely Situation: If a club can show it has been moving in the right direction and doing what it can to overcome financial issues, perhaps brought on by a recession (e.g. in Spain) then I would expect a strongly worded letter as a warning. Perhaps by then end of the 2016/2017 season, If a club has been determined to have violated the “break even” requirement for several seasons then it may be excluded from the next season’s UEFA competitions.
UEFA are willing to make some exceptions to the rule and have already said they will consider:
(1) The quantum and trend of the break even result. Example: Chelsea has spent a lot this summer rebuilding an aging squad, so even with considerable additional income from winning the Champions League it could violate the “break even” requirement. However, spending less next season will show the club moving in the right direction. Expect a strongly worded letter in a couple of years time.
(2) Debt situation. Example: A possible “get out” for Barcelona, Real Madrid and Manchester United should they have a bad season and need to violate the “break even” requirement. Consideration will be given to the existing debt and the ability of the clubs to service that debt. The trend of the debt reducing and an excuse of “one bad season” and “need to rebuild the team” would likely result in a slapped wrist.
(3) Fluctuating exchange rates. Example: All non eurozone countries need to report the FFPR figures in euros which could fluctuate due to the exchange rate, whereas a number of the UEFA figures are fixed amounts (e.g. the 5M euro acceptable deviation).
(4) Projected figures. Example: UEFA will allow clubs to show that they are moving in the right direction if they provide projected figures showing that the “break even” requirement will be met in the following season.
(5) Force majeure. Example: Any extraordinary events or situation arising that is beyond the club’s control will be taken in to account.
(6) Until then end of 2014/15 only - Ongoing reductions in wage costs. UEFA will be flexible over the “break even” requirement if a club can show that their wage bill has been reducing and with the exclusion of wages of players signed before June 1, 2010 they would have met the “break even” requirement. Example: An escape route for the likes of Chelsea prior to this season with Drogba, Anelka, Bosingwa, Kalou, Cech, Terry, Lampard etc. wages excluded from the calculations. A possible future escape route for the likes of Barcelona.
The Issues
There are a number of matters that UEFA still need to figure out and a number of concerns that certain clubs and certain national associations have. Off the top of my head:
(1) Loopholes: Whilst UEFA has done what it can to block any potential “loopholes” it is well aware that exclusion of wages for players signed before June 2010 is one it has introduced itself, and one that will be popular with the higher paying clubs as a short term escape route through to the summer of 2015. The matters of excessive sponsorship will be addressed via a cap to thwart the concerns over the likes of Manchester City abusing the rules. The cap has yet to be finalised but will require ratification.
(2) Soft Sponsorship: UEFA are concerned at the aggressive approach to obtaining sponsorship some clubs are taking. Questions are being asked about the ethics in clubs having airline travel partners, photocopier partners etc.. The Spanish clubs have raised this as a concern.
(3) National Sponsorship Variations: As we have seen tobacco sponsorship leave Formula 1 UEFA would like to see alcohol sponsorship out of football. We already have a situation where sponsorship by alcohol related businesses are forbidden in certain countries. Wealthy breweries are now focussing their sponsorship in other countries thereby creating a perceived imbalance in what income clubs are able to obtain in sponsorship. The French and Russian clubs have raised this as a concern.
(4) National Financial Distribution Variations: Concerns exist in countries where different models are used for distributing prize money, contributing to the grassroots game and distributing income from television and other media broadcasting. This led to an original request (rejected) from a number of clubs to restrict the FFPR to only the wealthiest of clubs, those with a turnover in excess of xM euros.
(5) National Taxation Variations: There is a considerable difference across UEFA nations in taxation, and this is seen to be reflected in the wages paid to players. The Spanish clubs have raised this as a concern.
(6) Third Party Ownership: Countries that allow third party ownership of players are seen to have a distinct advantage in being able to keep the costs of transfer fees low as they are only paying for a proportion of a player. The English clubs have raised this as a concern.
The Great Fear
Without going in to too much detail: (a) A number of clubs take the opportunity a once or twice a year to discuss various issues including changes in rules, television rights, the power of UEFA, exploitation issues for new technology streams, etc.. These discussions, the last of which were in late August, also always turn to the possibility and structure of a breakaway pan European league. Several are ex-G14 clubs, several are not, and some clubs decline involvement in such discussions. (b) The plan is that at some point a number of clubs would break away from their national leagues and UEFA. They accept that they would be banned from all existing club competition and the players would initially be banned from all FIFA competitions as well, but know that FIFA would be looking to negotiate in any case. It would be the end of UEFA in all probability and UEFA are very aware of this. It would also result in a restructuring of many of the national leagues. (c) The clubs would renegotiate their television rights, rights of distribution via other streams etc.. (d) It remains the greatest fear of UEFA and all major national authorities that one day this will happen.

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Ed this is extremely helpful, thank you.
Very interesting with regards Anzhi too, didn't realise they were such a charity!


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Cheers Ed. We all appreciate you spending your time to explain such an complicated subject, once again thanks.


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Glad you cleared that up!!!

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Ed002 - So I am not financially supreme and struggle to understand it (probably making me sound really dumb).... But Man City had a loss of £90+ million right?? and Chelsea surely after their spending in the summer will struggle too break even aswell. Sorry if I am coming across as a plonker. {Ed002's Note - You would need to look at both club's figures in the light of the excluded costs, but Chelsea actually posted a profit for last season. However, I would doubt that they will for this and still have some spending to do. When the FFPR come in to force I suspect that they will justify where they are by showing that they are moving in the right direction and they will take a gentle wrap on the wrists.}

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I'm guessing that would be the same for city Ed? Surely at a 99m loss there should be some action even if they are "moving in the right direction".

Dan {Ed002's Note - Right Dan.}

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Ed, there's obviously nothing stopping any top club being very "creative" with their accounts, given that they will be using some of the very best accountancy firms. Can't ever see it being enforced where it leads to any bans as there won't be any serious auditing of the finances that the clubs declare. Unless you can tell me different, thanks for the post though ed.

Supasub {Ed002's Note - Of course the accounts will be audited. If you are implying fraud then without doubt any club would be docked points at the very least - perhaps even relegated.}

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Thank you ed002.


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So in not so many words.....nothings going to happen to any club.....City and Chelsea could spend another 500 million and get a note from the headmaster.....telling them they've been naughty............ {Ed002's Note - Why not make the effort to read it rather than simply adding anonymous misleading comments?}

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Actually I kind of agree with the last anonymous poster.
He didn't really make it clear I guess, but according to your lond post Ed002 (thanks for taht by the way) all of this is even encouraging the Sugar Daddies to spend a LOT now to have a huge base line from where they can "show they are going in the right direction).
just post a massive loss, relevant accounting, now and trim it little by little in the coming years will give you big window of spending for decades to come!

I would be really pissed if this was going to show to be true.

In my book UEFA needs to slap their wrists once and then exclude those teams rather harshly.

Otherwise it is actually not doing it's purpose but rather the opposite by encouraging the sugar daddies to even pump more money into the teams, while the other teams are working properly and falling further behind in the development!

Jonny8 {Ed002's Note - Sure, but that would, almost certainly, lead to a breakawy league.}

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15 Dec 2012 03:59:09
An insider source belives ( his opinion) that united hardly sign a player in jan. And this time its only james rodrigez on radar.. If united can do something about him.. He wil join. Otherwise there wil be no signing until summer.
I personally thinks strootmaan wil join.

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