Manchester United discussion 2

14 Apr 2024 11:12:27
So ten hag calls out "the right hand side" for not doing their job and not following their man so hooks garnacho at half time. rashford on the other hand has been doing that all season. blatantly obviously doing it. but still gets a start and was left on the pitch.

Can anyone shed some light on what is the situation? How/ why does ten hag keep picking rashford?

14 Apr 2024 15:31:22
Jayo he is a leader nobody is following.

14 Apr 2024 16:13:25
Too many people following the toxic twitter crowd these days. Rashford has very obviously been instructed to “cheat” as the out ball and main attacking threat in behind. If he wasn’t doing his job he would be benched. He’s been poor, but people have built such an agenda on him based on these horrid twitter personalities spreading 15 second clips and pushing crap, it’s everywhere. Rashford has always worked hard his entire career, and every player interviewed alway gives his name as the player who works hardest in training. He tops the list of sprints of anyone in the team, but his instruction is to stay forward and make those sprints in attack.

People always confuse poor form with something else entirely when it comes to big name players.

15 Apr 2024 14:07:04
Nonsense Chris. The guy doesn't give a stuff. Have you ever watched for any period of time during a game? He just wanders around in a half arsed way. Might have a little jog now and again. Sort of pretends to close someone down but not really. Totally avoids anything like physical contact if he can help it.

He might be the outball but he could also work hard for the team at the same time.

15 Apr 2024 15:55:16
Mancman he won't even go into the box on a corner in case he gets a whack. He doesn't challenge properly for most aerial balls.
Chris it's an unusual tactical plan to only have 1 wide player tracking back and not the other side don't you think?

15 Apr 2024 16:06:11
Chris that's simply not true not every player ever interviewed says rashford is the hardest working player in training you are either mistaken or lying.
I have always been a big rashford fan but I'm sorry to say for one reason or another he has been really poor this year. He has fallen into 2 or 3 separate disciplinary issues this season which in itself is not the end of the world but coupled with his lack of effort terrible demeanor and awful return on the pitch it's very obvious he is not a happy camper.
Does he have issues with eth. I'd say probably I'm guessing a lot of do so that maybe the root cause who knows?
Reportedly eth is a difficult man to get along with. I can see why. I wouldn't like to work for or with him.

15 Apr 2024 17:02:19
Manc man then ask yourself why does Eric keep picking him, maybe just maybe that’s the instructions he is given, we have no idea, but if like most on hear were saying that Eric is great coach and great disciplinary traits then why would he pick him if he not doing what he wants…that makes no sense at all

Jeez I’m not defending ETH or Rashford both need to go, but you have to look at reasons why

Even stories now ETH fallen out with the love child Antony, the man is a joke of a manager so far out his depth it’s unreal….

13 Apr 2024 22:03:34
Does rashford have nudes of eth or what? I've never seen a player so bereft of form attitude and effort yet he starts nearly every week. My question is why?

13 Apr 2024 22:26:10
Rashfords clearly carrying a knock, but what's the option? Antony had 1 alright game against Chelsea but people forget how bad he was before that, Amad? Manager clearly isn't convinced who else Mount? Just come back from muscle injuries that have had him out most the season, being nursed back into it.

Everyone's keen to slag Rashford but the whole team is awful, they aren't 100% sure on the tactics, which means they aren't committed to them and that's if they understand what they are meant to be doing which I'm not sure they are.

Not only that the gaps in the middle because the defence drop early and the midfielders push up, like the manager wants, mean players aren't flying back all the time as they hope someone else will cover it, not always because they're lazy but because they know there's going to be another mad chase back in a minute or so, they're trying to pace themselves through a match.

14 Apr 2024 11:18:41
Rashford is in poor form, and has probably needed to be dropped to give him the chance to refocus and find his drive and desire again.

Yet the sad reality is that we have such a poor squad that there are literally very few options to drop him for.

Garnacho has shown he needs to play on the right for the time being to help his development. Sancho has had to sit on the naughty step and been shipped out, the club reneged on reintroducing Greenwood and he's been shipped off.

Antony has struggled and has been utterly awful this season. Not even good enough for a team battling relegation, let alone one competing in the UCL.

Amad and Mount have been out injured for the majority of the season. Even if/ when fit they aren't really wingers, neither are quick dribblers or able to play well on the counter. They are more like wide No.10's, creative players who need players around them to play off of.

Which really leaves Pellistri and Shoretire, neither are good enough for this level and should have been sold last summer.

So if you drop Rashford then who are you playing ahead of him?

That's the real problem.

14 Apr 2024 11:26:56
Antony lacks quality but at least he would give us workrate and effort. Both clearly lacking from rashford. Don’t get me wrong there’s more than him at fault but he seems to be one of the worst, and trust me that attitude is infectious in the wrong way.

14 Apr 2024 11:52:54
He seems to be the worst because he's seen as the talisman the match winner and we aren't winning matches, same with Bruno he dragged us through to an undeserved draw yesterday he's barley mentioned other than to say how many misplaced passes he's made or that he runs round like a mad man (people usually say that while complaining Rashford doesn't run round like a madman) .

13 Apr 2024 20:26:39
We just made Bournemouth look like Real Madrid and, yet again, came away with something we simply did not deserve.

The only thing I take from this game is the utter resignation written all over ten Hag's face.
This game is the type of away match that we should expect to deserve something from and Erik will know that we deserved nothing from that.
The most glaring difference between the sides today was energy - every Bournemouth player got stuck in and battled for everything - we failed miserably on that level.

The resignation might just be because of the performance today, but one suspects that he now knows he's gone.

I'm not an anti-Erik, but I think today was that final straw.

13 Apr 2024 21:33:14
Garnacho liking an anti-ETH post on Twitter. Not excusing this behaviour but it's over for ETH.

11 Apr 2024 10:06:05
The summer is looking to be heavy on player departures with either players being sold or contracts not renewed.

My 10 year old boy loves this time of year and creates individual playing cards for our players with his view of what will be happening and what came to fruition.

He has got excited as in his words 'this summer we will be like Chelsea' and generate a good amount of money in sales without impacting the current first team. He has been looking at the loan players and thinks that none of these will return for various reasons with the possibility of generating £80m whilst also clearing £400k week off the wage bill (obviously some of this is currently paid by loan clubs) .

We discussed not all of this will be available due to profitibility rules but this is before we start looking at current players that we could generate a fee for. Realistically we could be looking at another £50+m with potentially more than £600k+ week coming off the wage bill.

All in this could be quite the summer.

11 Apr 2024 14:34:03
I'm not sure our loan players will garner much interest. Sancho can see being another year on loan due to his wage and costs. Greenwood will go but can't see us getting much, as we are over a proverbial barrel. Then Williams and Van de Beek haven't done anything on loan so may be a difficult sell to even loan without covering a significant portion of wages. I have 0 clue how the financial side works so maybe talking garbage.

In terms of contracts expiring we have Evans, Heaton, Martial and Amrabat (loan expiry) right. So significant wages there in Martial alone but Evans may get renewed IMHO?

On the sale front, if we can get buyers, or have sensible transfer values in mind can see Eriksen, Varane, McTominay, AWB, Casemiro and one of Maguire or Lindelof.

11 Apr 2024 14:54:57
Varane is out of contract in June.
If we get 80/ 100m for
Sancho, Greenwood, maguire, hannibal vdb pellistri Williams Fernández it would be good with only sancho looking likely to create a loss on the book value.
Heaton varane martial and Evans are all out of contract
If all those leave it saves a fortune on wages and none bar Evans and varane made any significant contribution this year.
There are only 4 players that could possibly generate decent fees imo
Rash mctom Shaw Bruno will any of those leave?

11 Apr 2024 15:34:40
The outs are definitely the most important aspect this summer in order to reshape the squad and create more space for the highly talented youth we have to come through.

Varane, Martial, Evans, Heaton, and Amrabat will all leave for free (loan return) . Yet they are currently paid around 38m annually. Which is a significant saving on the wage bill (which is around 200m a year for the senior team) .

We then have players like Sancho (30-40m), Greenwood (30-35m), Donny (8-10m), Hannibal (10-12m), Pellistri (8-10m), Williams (5m), Shoretire (0.5-1m) .

Which would raise between 90-100m in transfer fees, and reduce the wage bill by a further 26m.

That's 12 players gone, none bar Varane having played significant minutes for us this season. With around 100m raised in transfer fees, and around 64m saved per year on wages (that's around a 27% reduction of the wage bill) .

I'd expect all of them to leave and fairly early as well. Then we get to the ones who could leave if good offers come in for them.

Maguire could raise 25-30m maybe and would reduce the wages bill by 10m a season, or we could sell Lindelof probably for around 15-18m, his wages are around 6m a year. I'd expect at least one of these guys to go.

One of McTominay or Eriksen would also likely leave this summer. More likely Eriksen as he wants regular football, yet McTominay would bring in more money. Eriksen is on 8m a year, and we might get a nominal fee (5m maybe) for him. McTominay we could probably sell for 20-25m, with his wages around 3m a year.

The other player who could leave is Casemiro, we might be able to get between 20-30m for him, while the big saving would be on his 18m a year wages. I suspect he'll leave this summer, he wants regular football, while if the club don't move him on this summer they might struggle to sell him next summer if he continues to decline. That would mean paying him 18m next season and probably being forced to pay him a further 18m for the final year of his deal.

At a guess I'd say Casemiro, Eriksen, and Lindelof will be the ones to leave. Potentially raising 30-45m in transfer fees, but saving a further 32m a year in wages.

Overall that would maybe mean we bring in 130-150m in transfer fees, while reducing the wage bill by a massive 96m annually. Which would represent nearly a 50% reduction in the wage bill. While very few of those players leaving would have a significant impact on the first team, with most being either squad players who hardly play, or players who are declining and don't have a long term future at the club.

That kind of money raised and that much saved on the wage bill, potentially combined with some investment from the new owners mean that the club could potentially spend 200-300m this summer, as long as they are sensible with the size of the new contracts handed out.

I'm not saying they will spend that much, just that it could well be available for the right players this summer. I don't expect to see silly numbers of signings, 5 or 6 is most likely I'd imagine. Maybe one more if Bayindir pushes to leave, as he'd need to be replaced. But I doubt we'd see a significant amount spent on his replacement. Patrick Schulte is a name I've seen mentioned a few times as a possible keeper signing. Given his contract ends in December I can't imagine he'd be expensive with less than 6 months on his deal.

If I was to hazard a guess I'd say two CB's, a CDM, a LB, a ST or a wide forward would be the most likely signings, with maybe another CM/ CDM if the right player is available for the right price.

11 Apr 2024 21:24:20
If we move on maguire, varane, casemiro, martial, vbd, erikson and sancho that is that will be the best part of 90 million a year on wages saved, that's nearly half our wage bill, absolutely mad money. I know we have to replace them, but if we can cut that in half of what they are paid and get 60 or 70 in transfer fees we look in a much better financial position already and that won't actually damage the quality of the squad.

11 Apr 2024 22:41:52
I provided a pretty comprehensive overview of our squad a few months back, but can't find it to regurgitate as a response.
Basically, sell the dross, promote the youth, where appropriate, and fill the gaps left with potential that can play the high lines we are most famous for.

Keep eth, and by Xmas if not performing bin him, if performing, give him an extension.

I'm not DoF, but that's a solid blueprint.

If course improve backroom staff and setup, improve facilities etc etc.

Basically reestablish our identity.

12 Apr 2024 12:01:51
Jimbored, I've also previously pointed out that our squad is bloated with too many players who simply aren't good enough.

36 players currently in the first team squad, and if we are honest only about 4 or 5 are good enough for the first team with maybe a few more good enough as squad options.

We could easily remove 20 of them without a single Manchester United fan even questioning it.

The worst thing is that this bloated squad is blocking pathways for our academy players into the first team.

Apparently we had 7 of the under 18's training with the first team on Wednesday/ Thursday. Training with the first team is one thing, but they also need opportunities to play otherwise we will never know if they are able to step up.

Youth development is a tricky thing and not an exact science. Pretty much everyone in our academy has the talent to become a EPL footballer (maybe not all of them for a top six side), but will they develop physically, mentally and emotionally to be able to deal with the step up, the pressure and thrive in that atmosphere.

While their development can quickly stagnate if they aren't constantly being pushed to play at a higher level. Looking at our under 18's this season it's obvious that the are a cut above everyone else at that level (despite many of them already playing a year above their age group) . 17 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss in 20 games with a goal difference of +47. They will win the league with games to spare. Which begs the question where do they play next season? It would be ridiculous to keep many of them who will still be eligible for the under 18's next season at that level. They will have to be pushed up to the under 21's at least (unless they are not physically ready to play at that level) . Some should also maybe start getting a game or two in the first team.

Yet that can't happen with such a bloated squad. We need to shift out at least 10 more players this summer than we bring in.

That should have multiple benefits. Firstly, it'll give space and opportunities for our academy players to play a few games. Secondly, as anyone whose worked in education will tell you, it's harder and less effective to educate a large group over a smaller group. You don't get enough one to one time with each member to give them personal advice on where and how they can improve. Finally a larger group is much harder to create a team spirit and togetherness. You tend to get breakaway little groups and some players become disengaged because they know they won't get a chance to play often if at all. They start just going through the motions and not training at 100%. That effects the others, it's hard to get the most out of training when those you train with aren't pushing you.

Realistically we should have a core squad of 18-20 outfield players who are all good enough to be first choice. You then have your 3 keepers, and the rest of the squad should be made up of the best young players from your academy, ready to fill in whenever needed. To have opportunities for them to seize and prove themselves.

That should be the aim, and to do that we will need to shift a lot more players this summer than we sign. 15-17 players should probably be heading for the exit door this summer, with 5-6 coming in. That will create the squad needed to successfully train and improve the players, to create a strong team mentality, and to create the space for those super talented academy players to get a few minutes in the first team.

12 Apr 2024 12:39:38
Shappy, I hope you're right about that number of exits. So many players just hanging around stinking the place out.

Plus like you say, it will be fantastic to create the squad space to bring through some more youngsters.

Exciting times ahead (hopefully! )

12 Apr 2024 16:04:13
We need 2 CMs minimum. Especially considering that McTom, Case and/ or Eriksen will be sold.

12 Apr 2024 16:33:25
Idek2346, I don't think all three will go. Casemiro and Eriksen I think will go, but I suspect McTominay will stay for another season.

12 Apr 2024 19:47:43
I remain to be astounded if any of this happens.

We have a manager who is likely moving on again, and have not appointed anybody at DoF, Tech Director, and our new CEO haven’t started yet until summer. So who is doing all this transfer grunt work?

13 Apr 2024 20:09:49
So let’s try and count he outs:

Casemiro, Maguire, Lindelof, Martial, Varane, Amrabat, Eriksen, Evans, wan Bissaka, Heaton, Pellestri, Hannibal.

Then maybe Antony, McT, Rashford if crazy bid comes in?, Bayindir, Amad, maybe Bruno with a silly offer, Malacia?

Would have zero issues with any of the above going!

But that’s a crazy amount of players going and needing to be replaced.

10 Apr 2024 15:36:13
Nemanja Vidic: "You talk about what Erik ten Hag did for MUFC, I think last season he did well, obviously they finished third. It seems like certain players didn’t stand up and perform, especially the experienced players. It’s not just about the coach. I think it’s about the players. The mentality and that’s what is the issue at the club, not just this year, but the last few years. "

Wayne Rooney: "For me, the players need to raise their game too. Some players have been here a long time and survived four or five managers, and they need to do a lot more for Ten Hag. "


Few more people associated with the club should start doing this so maybe some players don’t continue to hide behind “it’s the managers fault” excuse!

10 Apr 2024 18:12:38
I would say it's both some players and the coaching.

11 Apr 2024 08:25:34
Ports, I've been saying the same for ages. Players stealing a living is the main issue here. The only blame I attach to the different managers is that, possibly out of necessity, they keep playing the underperformers. In no particular order, Rashford and Martial are top of that list.

11 Apr 2024 11:59:57
So fizz you are saying the only issue under moyes is that he played some players too often. Same with lvg
Same with Jose
Same with ole
Same with Ralph
Same with eth
Interesting thought process I don't agree. But it's a top top thought process. 🤣🤣.

11 Apr 2024 14:15:03
Can I get a cab for Tumbleweed? 🤣🤣.

11 Apr 2024 14:38:17
Can I get. very irritating 🤣🤣🤣.

11 Apr 2024 15:33:48
So, you excel at very irritating. In fact you are a top top irritator 🤣🤣🤣.

11 Apr 2024 17:31:20
Somebody had to be Fizz, I take the role very seriously🤣.

10 Apr 2024 12:16:25
So ETH was called out about his midfield approach whilst at Ajax. Ruud Gullit -

“The annoying part about Ajax”, the legendary midfielder began to explain.

“Especially in transition, I’ve seen it against Bayern Munich, I’ve already seen it many times before, at the moment they’re taking a lot of risks.

“Especially in midfield and all of a sudden you get ridiculous counters. If it gets intercepted, they can just run all the way through.

11 Apr 2024 22:08:59
Ruud Gullit. Tactical genius.

09 Apr 2024 21:14:19
Imagine the difference a player like Musiala would make in place of Bruno.
SJR has made it known he wants to develop youth and find the next Mbappe but players like Musiala and Florian Wirtz should be what we're targeting under the new management.

11 Apr 2024 14:52:39
We could target them but we wouldn't get them.

09 Apr 2024 14:10:53
Murtough stepping down. that's another one gone!

09 Apr 2024 15:56:30
I'm not sure Murtough did a bad job. Obviously there are better qualified people, but he started several good things at the club during his time. There was talk of him maybe staying in some capacity, but that almost certainly meant a demotion.

I wish him well with the rest of his career and hope the new people can take us back to where we want to be.

09 Apr 2024 20:50:16
Just think he was out of his depth in that role shappy. I’m sure he did some great things at the club but I think he fell short as DOF. Wish him the best for the future but glad to see we are making the changes required!

10 Apr 2024 12:30:56
This is the guy who presided over some of the worse transfers in football history, handed out some of the most ridiculous contracts imaginable and left a mish mash of a squad not fit for purpose.

Surely we have to say he was a complete disaster.

Or am I missing something?

10 Apr 2024 17:28:53
Don't get me wrong I don't think Murtough is the right man and I agree he's been over promoted.

However, he has also had to work within a structure that doesn't support people to do their job to the best of their ability.

He was one of the people instrumental in starting the revamp of the academy, for which we are reaping the rewards. Although I appreciate that wasn't just him and Nick Cox has done a phenomenal job.

He also helped bring about the long overdue women's team.

He was also key looking to bring in a data analytics department to drag the club forward.

For someone who was over promoted and restricted in what they could do, along with given no real support I don't think he's done an awful job.

He isn't one of the best in the industry in that role and as such we need to look to hire the leading people if we want to be leaders. For that reason alone Murtough had to be replaced. But that doesn't mean he did an awful job.

10 Apr 2024 19:01:34
OK shappy, he completely failed at the core responsibilities of his job but he did a few pretty things around the edges so we'll give him a pass?

Don't be daft!

11 Apr 2024 15:42:45
No where have I said to give him a pass. In fact I've said he's been rightfully replaced as he has been over promoted into a position he doesn't have the ability to do to the level we need.

What I'm saying is given that he doesn't have the required experience or expertise, as well as he was working within a structure that didn't support him and in fact most likely hindered him, that given that context I don't think he completely messed it up, and in fact still managed to do some good things.

Imagine you asked an 8 year old to cook a three course meal, then turned the gas off so the stove wouldn't work, and gave them odd ingredients to use. They will not be able to cook a great meal, but if they made something edible you'd have to say that they did a decent job in the circumstances and base don their lack of expertise.

That's where Murtough fits in my opinion. In a role he should never have been in, with zero support, under difficult circumstances he was always set up to fail. I just think he treaded water and managed to do a few good things. Which given the context means he didn't completely fail.

11 Apr 2024 18:54:56
Shappy, whether he should or shouldn't have been there is irrelevant. He was and he did an awful job which is why Utds squad is a complete mess.

Lots of people do a great job in difficult circumstances. He didn't.

09 Apr 2024 12:21:41
Hi Ed002, quick question if you don't mind, and i understand if you don't want to answer, have INEOS decided what to do with ETH? because if they are going to wait till the summer it looks like a bit of a gamble in regards to getting the new/ right coach in place quickly?

Many thanks.

{Ed002's Note - It is not an Ineos decision - but I expect him to leave in the summer.}

09 Apr 2024 12:35:25
Ed002

Are Nagelsman and Motta realistic options or am I reading more gumpf?

{Ed002's Note - Julian Nagelsmann (C) Contracted until the Euros are finished in the summer - talented. May have been a shrewd choice for Liverpool and will have the support of Klopp but has expressed concern that the transfer approach at Liverpool may not suit him - so they can be discounted. A return to Bayern Munich seems impossible. Barcelona and Manchester United have both considered him an option and discounted him - but could return if preferred options are not available. Wildcard would be Chelsea. Wants to coach in England. Newcastle perhaps another wildcard but they have a preferred option. Another option will be another year with Germany - and then Klopp takes over. Perhaps two years and a World Cup chance would suit JN - but probably not Klopp. No interest in the Borussia Dortmund job.

Thiago Motta (C) MIlan and Juventus are showing some interest in taking Motta in the summer as his coaching career has been picking up and he is well thought of. Will perhaps be considered by former club Barcelona, but they certainly have preferred choices but could look to integrate him in to the larger coaching set up they are planning. I expect Juventus to win out. }

09 Apr 2024 13:02:35
Cheers Ed002

So it's possibly a straight choice between Potter and De Zerbi.

I'm not buying into the idea that SJR considers Southgate to be a legit option. I know the mooted preference is to bring in a British manager/ coach, but I don't see that factor being such a paramount decider over ability and CV.

{Ed002's Note - They would be the preferred options at this time - and he was impressed by Potter previously and Southgate has been of past interest to the club. Nagelsmann could be another option.}

09 Apr 2024 13:52:56
Thanks for the reply Ed.

08 Apr 2024 22:58:47
Just a quick one eds, do ye think potter or de zerbi could work at united? Thanks.

{Ed002's Note - Maybe.}

09 Apr 2024 10:00:01
We will have to wait and see what they decide to do with EtH and then the structure they want to put in place. If it is the old school manager (which I don't think is the direction) then it will be a certain type who both of these do not fit. If we are looking towards the continental head coach style then it will take away a lot of the peripheral responsibilites and I think that you can take a risk on these type of coaches.
We are a few years away from competing for the league so we need to look at the route that Arsenal made with Alonso and maybe take a punt.

09 Apr 2024 11:46:03
Brad, if they are going down a head coach route then I don't think hiring someone like Potter or De Zerbi is as big a risk as hiring a manager who expects and is used to having more control and greater responsibility.

Hiring someone who expects to have a bigger role then they will get is the biggest risk as it will only lead to conflict.

If the next manager is going to be more of a head coach and have less responsibilities beyond the training ground then it makes much more sense to hire someone who is happy in that sort of role, and who has excelled in it previously.