11 Nov 2018 22:21:58
Think the writing is on the wall for Jose though, finish in the top four golden hand shake and on to the next candidate, whoever that might be! The gulf is widening and we are slipping. There is a young team in there we just the right man and a few additions to make us click. Rashford, martial, lingard, Shaw, Bailey, lindelof, dialot lukaku and pogba even de gea is young for a keeper.


1.) 11 Nov 2018
11 Nov 2018 23:27:45
I'd say it's a lot more nuanced than that. There are a lot of factors as to why we can't compete with top teams, and the manager is just one of them.

Crucially, I think the board will stick with Mourinho, as it was or had even come to a point that the players feel they can outlast the manager. He will never have enough authority abd respect if that is the case. I think that's why they renewed his contract: to let the players know they couldn't just force out another manager that was asking them to make more of an effort and learn new things.


2.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 06:59:24
Redcon

I wish it was that simple but I fear like many, you are missing the bigger picture. Mourinho may not be many people’s cup of tea but he is a proven winner, when supported by his board. In that regard, we don’t appear a United club at the moment, the aims and objectives from owners down do not seem unified with one aim, to put the worlds best team on the pitch. The anti United press are loving it and stirring problems at every opportunity. Change the manager will not solve all our problems. Take a look at Monaco, nice shiny new name and look how it has gone. United need to take the punishment of failing to invest over many years and start the Re-structure in summer. Before bleating about how much Jose has spent have a look at long term spending, over the last 11 years, Ronaldo replaced by Wigan’s winger.

I can tell you from experience the first question on any Re-structure change plan must be to the owners asking what they want and design from there. Problem is the main objective may not be to be at the pinnacle of world football.


3.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 10:21:01
Failure to invest!? Haha, hilarious. Are you seriously suggesting that you's haven't invested in your team? Think almost any other club (except perhaps City) would love be able to spend the money you's have.


4.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 13:15:46
We have spent an obscene amount of money the pathetic excuses for Jose are ridiculous coming from deluded fans .
In his 3rd year at the club after having one of the biggest transfer spend in Europe Jose is taking this team backwards .
Never mind city or Liverpool forget about them we are no better Bournemouth or Watford. In fact we play worse football .
We don't know how to defend as a team
Our tactics are regressive and out of date .
Our players are out of form many wanting to leave .
Our style is awful
We don't know out best team
It's a bit of a shambles any other top club would get rid of there manager in this situation .

{Ed025's Note - you dont pull any punches do you jred?..


5.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 13:16:41
Red Man, The club may have failed to invest between 2009-2015, But since then the club have thrown over 100m a summer at the squad.

However, it has been poorly invested. You talk about rebuilding the squad. How do you envision that going if all our targets are 29 years old?

Mourinho doesn't want to be at the club for the long haul, he isn't invested in our club. He won't buy a house or move his family to Manchester. He is only interested in players who will win things here and now and has no interest in rebuilding the club, just adding a few more trophies to his haul so he can throw it at some journalist in a press conference.

Him and the club clearly disagreed on which players the club should sign in the summer. It is disharmony, however that is a two way street.

The club needs to feel they are getting value for money when purchasing a player for a large fee. Spending 50m+ on a player who might only provide two years of top level service before declining on a high wage and the club being unable to shift them is not in the clubs best interests. In either the medium or long term.

However, it might be a good idea in the short term, which is all Mourinho is interested in.

That is why Mourinho was a poor choice for a club that needed time as much as money being spent on it.

{Ed025's Note - harsh but some fair points there shappy..


6.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 13:47:37
Or better still . Let our attacking players attack and let the defenders worry about defending. Rashford is not a wingback nor is martial. we have the players they just need to be played in positions their good at.


7.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 18:46:17
Ah the reaction to losing a game, yes the derby but we have lost derbies before 5.1 even 6.1 and recovered and will again. I will say again, people want to rip up the club, sack the manager mid season and head off in a new direction. It doesn’t matter what direction or if it is the right direction, just let's change quick, the pain is too much to bear. There is no thought it might be the wrong direction or that the underlying problems will still be there. So many advocating running before we can walk.

I am now obviously deluded because I don’t think it is the right time to smash the walls down. Next I will be a Mourinho lover or an apologist because I say the issues are far deeper than the manager and need to be sorted and plan rather than react. We talk about investment and how it has been poor, and some has but is it all Mourinho’s fault, is there no exerpertise at the club or were they studying the internet clicks rather than how the player would fit. It’s the stick to beat him with but did he chose the exact players or give positions and then the club got what they thought were bargains. So there are many who want to sack the manager yet ignore that he wasn’t supported in summer. Woodward should have supported him or sacked him but did neither and that is where the start of our problems are.

How long will you give the next manager or the one after that? When the shine rubs off them and Woodward sacks another will any of you actually realise what the bigger issues are?

{Ed025's Note - a lot of sense in there red man..


8.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 19:13:01
My thought entirely Red Man. Jose is not without fault, of course. He has made plenty of mistakes, and continues to do so. His whole demeanor is wrong, and the knock on effects from that are obvious for all to see.
But the managers issues are a great shield for all the others to hide behind, from the board all the way down to the players.

Mourinho won't be here long, but will things really change that much when he has been replaced? I am not sure it will, not until the whole club undergoes a massive and long overdue overhaul.

Changing the manager is, I fear, just scratching at the surface of our problems. But the fans, and the press especially need a target. A focal point, and for now at least, Jose fits the bill very well.

{Ed025's Note - spot on betty..


9.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 19:53:59
Clubs change there managers all the time . Redman wanted moyes sacked before a ball was kicked moyes had more points than this lot .

Chelsea are on there 3rd manager in 4 seasons .
Jose apologist who want to blame everyone apart from the man in charge .
Jose got sacked at Madrid sacked at Chelsea and will probably get sacked at United.
That's football .
With a bit of luck the next manager will be the right man because moyes, Lvg and Jose weren't.

I wanted Jose but I was wrong he is the wrong man for United a manager past his best and outdated .
It's ok to say your wrong.


10.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 19:58:49
For me the issue is obvious, Jose is succesfully known to play a particular way but is having to adapt to a different playing philosophy. The board won't fully back him for the type of signings he needs to play his way so he is having to make do with the squad he has and the calibre of signings he does not want. for me the board need to either back him and adopt his approach or appoint some one who employs an attacking philosophy that matches the calibre of signings they want. it was telling after Bournmouth game when he said something along the lines of we've prepared for this all week in training. shows there is no identity if you have to adapt your tactics to an opposition like Bournemouth. he's on huge wages so won't walk away easily.


11.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 20:03:50
Should we of given moyes more time time reading all the above?


12.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 20:16:53
Jred

My deepest sympathies, you really have never got over Moyes being sacked. One thing you keep getting wrong, I was very clear before Moyes was even appointed he should never be anywhere United, a long way before a ball being kicked. You keep on missing that Jose/ Moyes CV comparison or don’t companies look at your CV before offering you a job?


13.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 20:24:09
Agree with Redman.

Jose isn't right long term, but we need a direction to aim for, with football men running the football side of the club.


14.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 20:36:11
Red man
Pele was a good player average now .
You were very clear about moyes? So was everyone else not many wanted him .
So you pick and choose who you support and expect everyone else listen to you .

A lot of people didn't want Jose anywhere near United as he wasn't a United type manager . They were right me and you wrong .

I didn't want moyes but was amazed at the lack of support from so called fans . How can anyone who calls themselves a fan want a manager sacked even before a ball has been kicked?
Moyes was wrong, Lvg wasn't the right fit but prob done better than the current incumbent is doing.
Hopefully the next manager is the right choice.


15.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 20:54:51
You make very articulate points about structure, outlay and ownership redman and I enjoy reading yr posts without always agreeing. There may be many issues at the club but we have been 19 and 23 points adrift and are currently 12 points behind but in all likelihood heading for twenty odd behind and we are currently in November behind Watford and Bournemouth .

Our football is often awful and our team for the money spent on it should be way better. We looked a bit out of our depth against city and maybe it's because they have spent more but by that logic we should be better than most if not all other teams in the world bar city. I think people can find it hard to hear about all areas where things aren't going to well but very little said about the obvious to some main thing, the managers results, style and transfer record.

i'm not sure what evidence there is that refutes every player we have bought was run past and agreed with Jose. To on the whole not mention Jose much but point out all the other things wrong with the club to me is like someone holding yr head underwater in the bath and pointing out the tap is running too fast and the waters too deep but then not really mentioning the hand holding year head underwater.


16.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 21:52:53
Slate
Great post.


17.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 22:01:02
Slate151

I don’t think anyone should pretend where we are is acceptable, but I believe we need to understand this is not just a poor managerial performance. People who likely have never managed or been a leader are saying one of the worlds most successful managers is past it. People forget how awful SAF early years were even after he had been on a spending splurge. There are millions of wannabe managers on social media these days screaming for the guys head, a manager who has proved he knows what it takes to win, to get to the very top. At the same time the impact of owners who just don’t seem focussed on football success is ignored. Our ground hasn’t been improved whilst rivals have and plan more but this is ignored.

I am not “refuting” as you put it, every player was run past and agreed with Jose but I suspect that Jose has identified areas and if the powers at the club say this is what you are getting, does he have a choice or is it accept it or resign? None of us know the inner dynamic of transfer activity at the club so how can we completely blame him for every signing unless it is a desire to see him accept ultimate responsibility and get the sack. I stand by him right now because I don’t think there are many, if any, others who could do any better in the circumstances. The wrong appointment could see things worsen yet no one sees that, they only see improvement and glory and I think it is a very high risk thought process.


18.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 22:35:24
Redman
A very large part of it comes from the poor performance of the manager.

SAF early years have no bearing on the current situation .

You suspect? You don't really know tho .
The manager takes responsibility that's the nature of the game .

It's all mirrors with you, Jose at present is doing a very poor job .

Please Give me your insight on the Liverpool owners and what they ate doing that is so good.


19.) 12 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 22:41:03
We, man United are in a worse position after 12 games under the current incumbent than we found ourselves under the disaster that was D Moyes.


20.) 13 Nov 2018
12 Nov 2018 23:45:25
Moyes had a far better side than Jose has now.


21.) 13 Nov 2018
13 Nov 2018 06:45:18
Oh Jred

Still trying to show Moyes was better, he inherited a fully confident team of Champions, Jose a rag tag bunch from 3 previous managers.

A very large part comes from the poor performance of the players, they are the ones making regular errors, can't defend, can’t pass 5 yards or put the ball in the net. No Jose is not without blame or criticism but this is us failing as a club for many reasons not just the one you keep going on about.


22.) 13 Nov 2018
13 Nov 2018 10:37:21
Redman
I'm not trying to show . oyes is better .
I'm pointing out your ridiculous double standards.


23.) 13 Nov 2018
13 Nov 2018 11:05:50
Red Man, How is Sir ALex's early years even slightly comparable to Jose's current situation?

Sir Alex had taken over a club that had been nowhere near the top for 25 years, Jose took over a side that won the title 4 years previously.

Sir Alex was at the start of his career and was managing the biggest club he had ever managed at the time. Jose is heading towards the back straights of his career, having already managed huge clubs and in Real Madrid you could argue a bigger club than ours (certainly on a European level) .

Jose has been a great manager, no one can take that away from him. However, LvG had also been a great manager. Both are past their respective peaks and are on the decline. Obviously LvG is further along that decline than Jose is.

Jose will probably never with the UCL again, he certainly won't win the treble again. So its safe to say he is past his best.

Unfortunately the success Jose has had in his career means many young up and coming managers have studied his methods, learned from them and have worked out their weaknesses. Jose has to adapt to that or be left behind. He isn't showing much in the way of adaption at the present time.

Jose was the master at getting the most out of his squad, yet less than half our players look like they are playing for him.

Some will argue that it is the modern day player, too much too young, spoilt and unprepared to roll their sleeves up and put in a shift.

Yet many other managers are getting phenomenal work rate out of modern players. Pochettino, Pep, Klopp and Sarri are getting a real shift out of their players. Even Emery has the Arsenal squad that Wenger couldn't get working hard defensively putting in the hard yards.

Simeone has made Atletico Mardrid one of the hardest working teams anywhere in the world, even Griezmann puts in a shift for him.

So when do we start saying that it is the manager who can't get the players to work hard rather than the players attitudes that is the problem.


24.) 13 Nov 2018
13 Nov 2018 19:15:56
Shappy

“Sir Alex was at the start of his career”, when he came to us is what you are saying. Off the top of my head he had been managing for about 12 years, including about 6 at Aberdeen winning leagues and cups and was about 46 years old when he came to Utd, only 9 years younger than Mourinho is now. So Mourinho was about 6 years older than SAF when he arrived.

Many of the other managers you mention have leadership above them that gives more direction and stability with a modern infrastructure, players don’t think the manager will be ditched when toxic fans start moaning loudly so they have to work. They knew SAF was going nowhere so it was work or get the boot, it is why they gave Moyes a 6 year contract to offset that psychology but it didn’t work.

When do we say the players are also a problem or doesn’t that suit the agenda?


25.) 14 Nov 2018
14 Nov 2018 09:21:35
Red man, you want to blame the players to deflect Jose's poor performance as a manager.

I'm not saying the players are blameless, but it's the managers job to get the best out of them.

The same players Jose had at Chelsea when he was taking them to relegation won the league the following season under Conte.

The same players Jose couldn't get performing at Real have won 3 back to back UCL titles under Zidane.

Why is it that only the players playing for Jose Mourinho are lazy and won't work hard when other modern players are doing it all the time for other managers at top clubs?

When do we start to say Jose hasn't been able to adapt to modern players and he can't get them performing in the long term?


26.) 15 Nov 2018
15 Nov 2018 15:02:17
Are people seriously trying to argue that Moyes inherited a better squad than Mourinho has currently?

Moyes inherited a squad which had been desperately in need of overhauling for years, which was being carried almost entirely by SAF's raw force of will. The current squad is vastly superior.

The points about the club's problems going beyond the manager are entirely valid, but that doesn't mean the manager isn't also a problem.

Mourinho should never have been signed. Many of us were saying it before he came, and it's as true now as it was then. Jose doesn't belong anywhere near a club like utd. Personally, once he signed, I put aside my personal opinions and got behind him. And in fairness, he wasn't the utter dissaster I expected, and he did a lot better than I expected. However, he still isn't the right manager for utd, any more than he was back then, and we are now slipping into exactly the situation I expected a couple of years ago.

Much as it galls me to say it, Liverpool have the manager we should have had. I know the timing didn't line up, but once Klopp became available, we should have dropped everything to sign him straight away. He is not only good enough, but his style of football has enough in common with the way we played under SAF, that it would have been a natural evolution, rather than throwing away our footballing identity completely and trying to build a totally different one instead, which Moyes, LVG and Mourinho have all tried to do.

Imagine players like Lingard, Martial and Rashford under a manager like Klopp.