09 Mar 2021 08:18:32
Question: If we finish 2nd this season and on more points than Liverpool, is that seen as progress and does it entitle Ole to another season?

Can anyone argue against that?

1.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 08:32:18
What relevance does Liverpool's performance have to whether or not Ole is doing a good job?

2nd along could be used to argue Ole keeps his job, if your only metric is points. But Liverpool could get relegated and it would still have nothing to do with Ole.

I'm fact, we were one of the few points they've picked up recently when we bottled it and played defencive tactics against a weakened Liverpool team who were low on confidence and there for the taking.

2.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 08:50:31
I don't think it's relative to other side's, where Liverpool finish is mostly irrelevant.

I think if we finish in a higher position than the previous year, if we have more points than the previous year, and if we are closer in points to first place than the previous year, then it's fair to say there has been some improvement.

So the targets for clear and obvious improvement are 2nd place or higher, more than 66 points, less than 33 points between us and the top of the league.

I think you could argue there is a hierarchy within those three clear indicators. I think total number of points won is the most obvious as it has the least to do with how other teams have performed. I then think the gap between us and third place is probably the second best indicator as it shows whether we have been more able to keep pace. While where we finish might actually be the least relevent as it very much depends on the performances of other teams. I mean if Ole got 92 points and finished 5th because it was a freak year and 4 teams finished with over 93 points should he be sacked? I think most people would agree that would be harsh.


Whether that improvement is enough I think is a valid thing to discuss. Some will be accepting of it other will argue that it isn't good enough.

3.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 09:33:48
I agree with Shappy that total points is the probably the best guage of whether we are not making progress. 66 points was a poor return last year but was enough to fulfil the remit of top 4. Currently on 54 with 10 games left, should be aiming for mid 70 point range.

Comparing ourselves with Liverpool is going to be difficult as at this moment we have to assume their current implosion and injury crisis is a one season outlier.

4.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 10:07:32
RedD, Shappy, it was very much the general consensus on here at the start of the season that we had to close the gap on Liverpool. To be expected, as they are the reigning champions hence why I mentioned them.

5.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 10:12:15
Wazza that's fair enough, but the way the season has played out Liverpool are now totally irrelevant. We'll see if it was a one season blip next season. But this year they just aren't a part of the conversation.

6.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 10:21:08
10 more points than last season, which will take us to 76 points. I believe that is par for this squad of players. Anything above, then the manager has done a great job. Anything below, then he should do better.

7.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 10:21:18
We shouldve win the league with the squad we got. We bottled it and the manager is no good so we should get rid of him at the end of the season if we are serious about challenging.

I doubt the owners give a toss so I could see Ole next year and we ain't winning nothing with him in charge.

8.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 10:26:32
It's well documented that Liverpool are having their worst league campaign for many a decade and perhaps the worst defending champions of recent times (Am sure someone will be along any time now with Blackburn/ Chelsea/ Man U stats) . So to be 1 point ahead of them, to me, would be a failed campaign.

9.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 10:47:59
I think its hard to compare points from this season to any other .
Due to C. V there has never been a season like this .
I think its hard to say what's par for the course.

10.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 11:00:38
City have the best squad and manager currently so will win the league. OGS III putting together his squad slowly but surely now and moving on those he doesn’t want. Let’s see what happens in summer as he will definitely be in charge next season.

11.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 11:03:37
"Progress" is too subjective. It depends what you want to see.

Is there progress in how many points we have taken and our current league position? Certainly, but is this just because other teams have struggled? Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal etc.

Is there progress in the individual players and their performances? Probably not. The only really big progress is Luke Shaw, but then that raises the argument that his ability has always been there, he is just now finding his consistency so we are seeing his best. As for the rest of the team I don't think they look better than they did last year. Some certainly look worse.

Is there progress in the style of play and our identity? Some might say after Sunday the tactical play is there. I just look at the games we have played out dull goalless draws or dropped points to teams we should on paper be dominating and would think not.

Unfortunately as Shappy said on another post, the progress the "decision makers" at the club want to see is our league position, that is obviously deemed success enough to warrant an extension.

Fans wants performances, the board want results.

12.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 11:10:04
It’s ok to compare points in different seasons when it suits.

We need 13 from 10 games to do better than last season. We need to win 9 of 10 games to get to 81 points which surely had to be seen as improvement if we are going to challenge next season, isn’t that also what Ken identified?

I think you also have to factor in the need for Ole to show he can win something, he needs a cup for me as well as improvement in the league. Without showing he can lead the club to win something, we have to be unconvinced he has the nous to do it.

So a cup and at least 78 to 80 points.

13.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 11:35:44
Redman
As I say I don't think there has ever been a season like this.
But the league never lies, the best team this season will win it the worse will come last .
What was your expectation at the start of the season?

14.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 11:48:57
I suppose if you want to compare points, which personally I wouldn't this time last year we where sat in 5th on 43 points .
We are currently 2nd on 54 points.

15.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 11:49:11
I've said plenty of times Ole isn't the right coach and nothing I've seen this season shows he is. Despite that I wanted to see a good improvement on points (10-12 points roughly) and we are on course to be around there, provided we play fairly well until the end of the season. So based on my own criteria, Ole deserves another year.

I disagree about that winning trophies is important to showing progress though. Liverpool have won plenty over the course of my lifetime but last season is the first time I've seen them win a league. Across that 30 years, they won a lot of cups but only challenged in the league a few times. Arsenal have been winning the FA cup often and look at the state of them. Even we have won a couple of domestic cups and the Europa League in recent years. Winning a trophy wouldn't hurt but it's not something we need to show progress in the short term.

16.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 11:51:27
Jred

You can't help yourself asking the expectation question.

Mine was that we would be on a roller coaster ride in the season, inconsistent because the manager couldn’t put a winning system of play into practice. We have seen the roller coaster

I was with Ken and felt we needed to see circa 80 points and a challenge plus win a cup and get through the the group stages of the CL. There is still a lot to do to be convinced, and one win against City, although enjoyable is nowhere near enough.

17.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 12:12:06
Redman i'm sure you said midtable and ole sacked before xmass .
Rjmanutd
Interesting post that, I think you make a really good point.

18.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 12:29:00
If we finish 2nd he most certainly deserves another season. Hopefully we can add a trophy too.

We can crunch the numbers, stats all of the above but finishing 2nd is acceptable.

But the mindset has to change. On paper it's an acceptable season but the Champions League was embarrassing. Going top and then conceding "we were never in a title race" 2 games later is not acceptable.

Ken nailed it saying this squad should be reaching 80 points.

I would hope they hold off on offering the manager a new deal. Even though it's acceptable, he hasn't done enough to be rewarded.

Next year managing in his 4th season, I think a serious title challenge is in order. He has had numerous excuses made up for him but enough is enough. He's had time to mould the squad, will get more money in the summer.

Most title winning teams finish 2nd before finishing 1st. Next season we need to go up a gear and stay in that gear.

{Ed077's Note - We've not finished 2nd yet guys. We could still easily end up 4th or even lower with how tight the table is. For me anything around 74-75 points is acceptable. I would also really like us to win a cup. 2nd in the league and an FA cup is progress in my view, but not an achievement, not success. Finishing well behind top spot never is, for Man Utd.

19.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 12:54:31
Europa or FA cup is a must with the quality of squad we have.
And also, we need to achieve 75-80 points minimum to say that we have improved upon last season.

20.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 13:01:35
Jred

I am sure you will find the quote from me in August 2020, before the start of the season saying sacked before Christmas and mid table and post it.

You asked my expectations for a Man Utd manager who is into his third year. I would imagine when Jose was in the same position, despite having won two trophies you were expecting more than accepting second. There again your expectations of Ole and Jose would be different.

My expectations of a United manager is to win something and challenge at the very top. Certainly not concede the league with 15 games to go.
I did expect the roller coaster and we have definitely had that.

21.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 13:56:08
Redman
Ok if you say so, it's only taken you a month to come up with pal.

Back to jose again 🤦‍♂️.

22.) 09 Mar 2021
09 Mar 2021 14:30:43
I think winning something is important. Ole has fallen short every time when we've been close to achieving something.

If he can reach ose to 80 points and win a cup, I think you could make the argument that he and the team are improving enough to keep him in the job.

I agree that winning a cup doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of being able to compete for the league next season, but it does help to create belief and a winning mentality which I think we need to show, and so far haven't.

As much as I don't think Ole is the right coach, I think he simply isn't good enough, if he gets a cup win and 2nd place with around 80 points it would be really harsh to sack him and he will deserve another season.

With that last paragraph in mind, I hope to see him here next season. I'd love nothing more than for Ole to prove us doubters wrong and grow into the job.