04 Jun 2021 12:31:16
If maguire had replaced stones would city still have won the league. Yes imo
If shaw had played for City would they still have won the league. Yes imo
If awb had replaced walker would city still have won the league. Yes I'm
If fernandes replaced kdb would city have won the league. Yes I'm
If cavani replaced Jesus would city have still won the league. Yes I'm
If rash replaced sterling would city still have won the league? Yes I'm
If greenwood replaced mahrez would city have won the league? yes imo
If Ole had replaced pep would city have won the league? No imo
Lots of our players could walk into that city team. Lots of them.
They have a better coach and manager the moment our players start playing for a better coach they will be better. To suggest otherwise is utter rubbish no other words for it.

{Ed077's Note - Walk into City's team is bit OTT imo. But I do agree that the biggest difference in quality is between the managers at the 2 clubs.}

1.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 12:42:46

You know I wholeheartedly agree. It is so obvious. I really do not see us winning the league again next season with Ole.

What gets me is that Spurs might hire Conte, so we will be sat there with 4 competitors, all with far superior managers and that is ignoring Leicester, Arsenal and even Everton.

{Ed014's Note - I don’t see many of your players walking into that team, certainly not as a collective.

Luke Shaw is nowhere near as good as Cancelo either, classes apart.

Certainly you could fit one or two from most sides into that 11 and they’d still smash the league.

That’s not to say that Ole as manager isn’t just crippling any chance you have of winning anything.

2.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 13:42:20
I think Kens main point is the difference Pep to Ole.

3.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 12:51:28
Agree with everything Ken.

Pep adapted and found a way without Aguero.
Their footballing style is up there with the best.

Well drilled offensively to break down low block teams.

4.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 13:16:31
shaw was the best left back in the league by a mile last year.

that shaw would walk into any side.

red man come on i agree with your first sentence about not winning the title but please don't compare any of the teams you mentioned below it.

ill give Rodgers and the foxes credit he won the fa cup but 2 years running he and his team have bottled top 4 with massive advantages both times

arsenal and everton are dire. i'm not just saying it because i am a united fan but arsenal need a new team never mind a new manager

at least ole is consistant ;)

maguire shaw bruno and cavani would get into any team in the prem the rest is debatable.

5.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 14:35:19
I don't think anyone would debate that Pep isn't a better coach than Ole.

That said one player moving into a great team that is well set up in isolation doesn't mean the collective here is as good or better than the collective there.

To flip the idea on its head, would Pep have won the league with United last season, with the players we have, and the behind the scenes set up we have? In my opinion no he wouldn't have.

I mean he finished 3rd in his first year at City, with a squad that included Kompany, Fernandinho, KDB, Sterling, Sane and Aguero. 6 players who'd walk into our current starting 11.

6.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 14:48:00
The point doesn't make sense though. A lot of the United players could be part of the City team and it not result in too great a drop off in quality. However I can't think of many positions where a United player would be picked ahead of a like for like City one - most of our players just aren't quite as good (though they may develop to be) . Even a minor drop off in quality, when taken as a collective, adds up. The sum of United's collective parts isn't near City's, and that's only the first XI. City have frightening depth to allow for rotation also. In the Europa League final I couldn't see a single person on the bench who I felt would impact the game - City always have those options.

I think the main question you didn't ask is - if Pep replaced Ole, would we have won the league? In my opinion, no.

We've a young team, with good potential. A couple of shrewd additions with a vision over the next 3 windows and we could build a really good squad. I doubt Ole is the manager to take that squad on to win the league/ ECL, however with him at the helm I can see direction and potential. I'd rather stick with that than hire someone like Conte, who will likely leave in a couple of years needing someone else to come in and pick up the pieces. We've chopped and changed and it doesn't work. We've lived through LvG's sideways passing, no goals at home dross. We've slept through Mourinho's pragmatism. Ole hasn't done any worse than them, the football (although sometimes terrible) is often better. He's hit or come close to hitting his targets for the last two years. Continually hiring and firing isn't working. All the clamour for Poch - he's not exactly set the world alight at PSG, who knows if he'd have outperformed Ole. We've a DoF in place now, he needs to come up with a shortlist of managers who can continue along the direction of the club. Should we invest this summer and the results not improve, then we replace Ole with the top of the list. We can't just go for Conte and leave all that behind because he's available, his mantra and style are not good for the club in the long term.

This place has become an echo chamber for anti-Ole sentiment and it makes depressing reading. The reality is he's fine, he's not amazing but he's a better fit than every other post-Fergie appointment. The team this year are better than last, and better than the year before that. When we stop progressing, or a better cog for the wheel becomes available, then by all means we should have a look at changing the manager. In the mean time though, I'd rather stick with the direction, the progression and with a couple of acquisitions see how the team continues to develop than throw it all put of the window for an impulse replacement for instant results.

7.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:09:50
If you changed managers we would take the Premier. Its not like we would hit 100 points. But we would better and City worst.

8.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:10:56
In my opinion if we had Pep as manager with the team we have he would indeed have won the league. Pep would not have got to the top mid season then capitulated the way Ole did.

I am sure if this forum had been around when Sexton was manager people would have said stick with the direction. What I don’t understand is those that think time is the answer when there is no indication at all that Ole has what it takes to develop the team. He has no history so very likely we will have the same in 12, 24 months.

Blind loyalty to give long tenures only worked for Busby and SAF, look what Chelsea have won by acting decisively. It’s about winning not enjoying seeing a legendary player as manager.

9.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:19:27
I think if Pep had coached some of them we would be having a very different opinion of some of our players.

10.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:23:22

We probably might not have won the league with Pep in charge but there would had been real progression on the pitch and he would have at least had us challenging and managed to run City close for the title. Not to mention he would have won one of the other cups for sure.

SomersetRed, I would be interested in knowing what sort of progression we have achieved so far under Ole.

11.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:35:34
Conte is an excellent manager but there's a lot to do at Spurs. Especially if they don't keep a hold of Kane.

The key for us at the moment aside from replacing Ole, which isn't going to happen, is to sign three or four players that could get into City's team. Players like Rice, Sancho, Varane, Kane are the level of player we should be aiming to sign, those guys help to close the gap. Not holding out too much hope we will get them though.

12.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:36:17
The Europa League final was the final nail in the coffin.

On paper we should walk that final. Obviously football isn't played on paper, but one manager was proactive on the touchline, keeping his team on their toes, making changes when the game was drifting and one manager sat on his arse for 100 minutes hoping.

Even at half time in extra time Ole was doing nothing. Emery was drilling his team.

Nothing to do with the owners or the structure of the club. In a cup final that game was lost on the bench.

13.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:37:54
Cancelo is a rb that can play on the left at a push the fact pep picks a natural left footer in blondie ahead of him speaks volumes. Shaw is better on the left than cancelo. Also city have a lb as priority this summer which suggests that cancelo ain't that hot on the left.

14.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:38:44
I've not suggested that as a group they would a get in together but all those mentioned above would do better with city under pep than they have done with United. They all have better stats than their city counterparts individually.
I know stats can be mis leading but all those players could replace their city counterparts in that team without the team missing a beat. No doubt about it.
I read a tripe post from shappy (well read some of it) its absolute bolloxology to suggest that no manager in the shield could do better at injured than ole or than no manager can succeed under our ownership.
We know that not to be the case because we have won everything under this ownership before. But we had the right manager.

15.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 15:49:25
Shappy, a few of seasons ago you said only 1 or 2 Liverpool players would get into our team. i'd say now only 1 or 2 of our players get into their team.

We probably where in a better position to kick on too. So how do you explain the turn in fortunes? It's not down to spending because we spent more. So what is it?

I'll save you the long post. It's simply down to a coach who has a track record of improving players he works with. We don't have that but we could if do the right thing and sack the manager.

Not only have some fans accepted mediocrity, you're justifying it.

16.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 16:28:52
If Pep is such a good coach, why does Ole keep beating him? Look at the head to head record and its up there with Klopp and Tuchel in the head to heads.

{Ed014's Note - no you’re right Pep is garbage! 😂😂

17.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 17:11:57
Haha grim. I'm guessing this is a joke.

18.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 17:16:01
I think the real question we should be asking is, will corona vanish if we sack Ole?

19.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 17:26:52
Mumbles, is it just down to the coach? Some decidedly average managers have won with City, Mancini and Pellegrini spring to mind.

Which kind of shows that if you have a well run club then you don't necessarily need the best coach in the world to win things. I mean sure it helps and that's why they went after Pep.

When City's owners took over they went out of their way to find the best football people to run the football side of the club. They sorted the academy, they sorted the scouting network, they had a vision and a plan for how the football team would be run. They bought players that fitted into that plan, they hired managers who fitted into that plan, as such they have been successfully.

Liverpool's owners have done something similar. You can see the profile of manager they have gone after, Rodgers and Klopp have a certain style, pressing football. When Klopp leaves they'll bring in a manager who fits that style.

20.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 17:32:35
If man had wings, would the airlines be out of business? Imo yes!

If horses had wheels instead of legs. Would consider diesel be on one screaming furiously? Imo yes!

If night was day, would the stars twinkle a bit brighter? Imo, yes!

If near was far, would we all be late? Imo yes!

21.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 17:49:30
Grim what's the medal and trophy count for ole v pep.

22.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 18:18:51
Shaps, there no point bringing City into it. If we're playing Top trumps they beat us on and off the pitch. My point was about Liverpool speficially as we were in a similar position to them team wise.

My point was how can a team which you thought was inferior to us by a large margin, go on to win the European Cup and League while we've won nothing?

I don't think Liverpool succeeded because Rodgers implemented a style of play and Klopp continued it. They had quite a similar couple of years to us.

They finished 2nd and then sacked their manager halfway through the season. We finished 2nd and did the same. Klopp lost the Europa league final and so has Ole. But do you think Ole can go on to get us 96 points next season or win a European cup?

Their progression was down to Klopp. He turned some of those players into the best in their position in the world. The coach was the catalyst.

I understand behind the scenes we are a shambles and it's difficult to succeed long term with that foundation. But there's nothing to say we can't pick up major trophies with those players at the club, our ability to spend and having a top coach.

23.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 18:42:24
Mumbles, the OP was about swapping out City players for United players. Which is why I included City in what I said. The point still stands, City being a well run club was able to win with average managers which shows the value of being a well run club.

If you want to only discuss Liverpool then fine. Liverpool wanted to play a pressing style and brought in Rodgers, they tried to sign players that fitted that style but ultimately they weren't good enough and Rodger lost his job because of it.

They then hired Klopp a d fully committed to his style and principles. While the money they spent might be less than us, they have completely changed the first team squad. Only Henderson, Firmino and Gomez remain from the pre-Klopp time.

Compare that to United and we still have Jones from when Sir Alex was manager, even though none of the four managers since have seen him as a key player.

While Liverpool might have changed pretty much the entire first team squad for Klopp, they have disagreed with him. He didn't want Salah for instance, I can't remember who he wanted, it might have been Werner but I can't remember for sure. But the scouting team at Liverpool overruled him and said Salah was a better fit. As it turns out the scouts seemed to be better at spotting the players the club needs than the manager.

All of that comes from being a well run club. Something we aren't, and until we are we wouldn't have been able to give Klopp the platform he has needed at Liverpool to be the success he has been.

24.) 04 Jun 2021
04 Jun 2021 19:23:09
I think Klopp wanted the guy from Leverkusen who then went to Dortmund. He himself didn't want to go to Liverpool because of the lack of game time before the World Cup.
Average managers have won the League, for example Mancini or Ranieri and even Konte before he wins the league with Chelsea wasn't considered a top top manager. Peregrini for me was a really good coach and played very good football.
But then no average manager managed to collect 95+ points for two seasons.

25.) 05 Jun 2021
05 Jun 2021 01:10:01
Amusing thread this. What is say, if you read it through positive lenses is that we are not that far away. Just a few missing pieces and the team continuing to develop and grow together.

Who'd of thunk it?! Come on guys, drink the cool aid and come over to the sunny side 🤣.

26.) 05 Jun 2021
05 Jun 2021 07:04:34
Old tired argument from Shappy saying we can’t (no point) change manager until we are a “well run club”

I go back to the key point Shappy keeps making on planning. There is short and long term, “well run” will be long term, so the business needs to do what it takes to be successful short term. That is not continuing to keep the failed Cardiff standard manager.