Manchester United Banter Archive December 10 2013

 

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10 Dec 2013 23:19:33
Kean v Vieira absolute quality better tv than the match

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I think keane is pushing it with his fergie hatred. It's been 10 years, time to get over it.

My favourite part was
What was Viera's biggest strength
He's tough, very tough

What was his biggest weakness
He wasn't as tough as I am

Quality

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Wot a great documentary! Loved seeing keown going for Rudd and that spotty, hair highlighted, 18 yr old Ronaldo going toe 2 toe with about 4 gooners. Warrior!

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I think Keane was reacting to the comments in SAF's book which dragged it all up again. Fergie used the book to drag up old grievances with former players and I'd be furious too if someone dragged my character through the dirt in public after serving the club for over a decade.

But the whole programme was fantastic, very funny and very honest from both of them. It made me nostalgic for those United and Arsenal teams, and that rivelary. When you see the passion shown by United players in those games, you see exactly what has been missing for the last few seasons.

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10 Dec 2013 23:00:34
"No matter what the result was tonight we'd qualified, and I think we would have taken that when the draw first came out." David Moyes,

We should always be aiming for top spot

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10 Dec 2013 22:36:21
We survived the first half where we were shocking, we didn't get near them most of the time and didn't look up for it. The question should not just be what changed at half time but how we were so off the pace in the first half. Moyes must have given them some choice thoughts in the interval and we competed better after the break. Whilst there was a second half improvement, overall we were too negative for me, it always looks one nil either way with us. This time it went for us and the goal probably went to our best player, credit to Jones for his efforts. Januzaj has a talent that deserves more playing time. Some may disagree, yet we didn't frighten anyone with the way we played but we won and we are through.
At the same time City beat Bayern in Bayern, a gap has opened.
Finally Ashley Young. Why was he selected to start and why did it take so long to substitute him?

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Sorry redman, u can't understand why we were so bad in the 1st half? Really?
The team is void in confidence, hadnt scored for 2 games and hadnt won for 4 including 2 at home!
Yeh I have no idea why we didn't start like a house on fire!

Credit to the fans tonite they pulled the lads through a difficult 35min spell, hopefully this will give them a good deal of swagger back, sonetimes u need to reach the bottom before u can understand what it take to get back up, let's hope this is 1 of them times.

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When we lost under SAF we came back harder and stronger more determined to win the next game.
If the Champions of England are so void of confidence in a game at home against a decent but not one of the top teams after we have already qualified and just don't need to lose to win the group then I am more concerned at the speed of our decline. Perhaps our present ethos of starting out not to lose means an increased fear of losing is now in place?

Credit to the fans for the support but how many empty seats were there?

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10 Dec 2013 22:29:10
10 Dec 2013 11:05:49
Gents, Gooner here in peace.

Can I just say first and foremost I have utter respect for Utd and even posted on here before the OT game that Utd have been the benchmark for English football over the past 25 years (your very own CTR may remember).

I really can't believe some of the posts I have read on here. Now, I totally understand your frustrations, after all, we(Arsenal) have won nothing for the past 8 years, so I appreciate your feelings, but jeez, give Moysie a chance will you.

You won the league last year, and contrary to the experts opinions, you won it on merit, not because Chelsea were bad or Man city under-performed, no you won it because you were the best team in the league last season, simple.

That said, SAF, the greatest manager of all time, did not strenghten your squad sufficiently for this season, something he is normally brilliant at, the best in fact.

SAF retired and replacing the legend is no small feat.
Moyes, in my opinion is not big enough to do the job. Great manager for Everton, but they are not Man Utd, which is a much harder job what with all the pressure and expectancies that go with the job.

But, let's be fair to the guy. When Fergie left, so did David Gill, he's right hand man. He was to Fergie what David Dein was to Arsene Wenger at Arsenal. Gill was instrumental in doing Arsenes wheeling and dealing and had an encyclopaedic knowledge of the European market. Its no coincidence that we have won nothing since David Dein left Arsenal.

You have Ed Woodward, he is very similar to our very own Ivan Gazidis, fantastic at corporate dealings and bringing revenue into the club and his off-field dealings and sponsorship work is fantasic, but they both bring nothing to the club in terms of players etc.

Moyes biggest mistake was getting rid of the OT backroom staff and bringing in the Everton boys. I don't know too much about your backroom boys but Moyes should have kept them as they know the players and the ins- and -outs of what happens behind the scenes.

Moyes chased a lot of players in the summer, but let's be honest, did you really think he was going to get Alcantara, Herrera and especially Fabregas? No chance, not Moyes fault but he doesn't have what Fergie had, and that's "pulling power".

Like I said, you deservedly won the league last season, but that's 7 or so months ago. Since than, IMO, Ferdinand is past it, Vidic is too injury prone (i may be wrong on that one) and they were your best centre-half pairing, (no offence to Smalling, very good player IMO).

Your midfield is the worse I have seen for a long time and I have followed football for over 40 years. Definitely the worst Manchester United midfield since Fergie took over. You use to have Giggs, Butt, Scholes, Keane, Kanchelkis, Cantona (arguably a striker) to name but a few. i'm not having a pop, but I can't believe your midfield now, very slow, very pedestrianised, very slow link up play with the forwards etc.

Rooney is world class, absolutely brilliant and without him you lack a cutting edge and a link between midfield and attack.
RVP left us but i'm still a huge fan of his. He did great last season and is doing ok this season but he seems to be getting the injuries he had at Arsenal. Remember, he was with us for 8 years and only had one injury free season, hence why Fergie bought him.

Also, in defence of moyes, when he took over he had the "will Rooney stay/go saga, which is not what you want when you are taking over a new club, especially not one the size of Man Utd.

So, the point i'm trying to make is, you are Man Utd, you are built on a foundation of class, tradition, heritage, very much like my beloved Arsenal, quite possibly, no definitely, the 2 biggest and classiest clubs in England, if not the world. Give the man a chance. This year will be a teething year for him, let the man try to stamp his authority/personality on Man Utd, see how he gets on, let him do his Jan/Summer dealings and judge him after 2 years and not 15 games.

Bless you all for the rest of the season and have a great xmas guys.

PS, some of my facts maybe wrong or argumentive or you just plain disagree, but its how I see it.

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What an excellent post

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DG

You are classy as your club mate :) . Objective analysis from a rival fan, that's like liquid gold. Like Stevie said, you should post more often. Your posts even before the United vs Arsenal game were honest and humble to say the least. Amidst some arrogant Everton, Chelsea, Liverpool and Southampton (yes even them) fans, your unbiased opinions are a breath of fresh air. Lord knows, our page sure needs some. We all have been a bunch of bickering ladies lately.

I would definitely want Arsenal to win the PL this year over the sugar daddy toys. Of course we will beat you at the Emirates ;-) .

Deeps.

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My pleasure boys.

And don't even get me started on Ashley Young lol

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Echo what the others above have said, excellent and classy post, the most common sense by a long way I've seen in months of reading this site.

Fans soon forget - if I were to say we're in ninth with only 21 points and 11 points behind Liverpool after 15 games there'd be some puzzled looks BUT that's exactly where we were in the season SAF announced he was retiring at the end of it. The fact that Fergy only said he was retiring meant we had a worse start than this one - under the greatest manager ever AND with some better players!

You can't underestimate how a manager who has been a constant for all of them, who built the current structures of the club from top to bottom is going to be missed by the players. SAF ruled with a mixture of fear and respect and Moyse has to instil his own respect and fear into the players. One of your old players, Paul Merson made that point about George Graham at the Gooners. The players were terrified of him and it made (his words not mine) mediocre side scared to perform at anything less than 100%. There's another fear factor that's no longer there, in the opposition. I bet at least 14 sides a season used to come to OT thinking that getting out without a real tonking was a good result, a point heaven and 3 orgasmic! Other managers will have far more confidence, home or away, that they can get one over on DM (or anyone else for that matter!) than they could with SAF.

I do think Moyse made a mistake with the coaching staff but equally United could have made it a condition that he could only bring one assistant with and that training and pre-season should be changed incrementally. If it ain't broke . etc.

I do think you're wrong about Fabregas though, I think Dein's son had it lined up as Fab was frustrated with not being numero uno but due to unforeseen change of Barca manager that changed, oh and the fact we never made an offer they couldn't refuse!

Moyse will be at United for at least another 14-18 months whatever the personteraty or ranters on here think. Personally I hope it can turn it around and gets backing from the Glazers to do so.

I also hope that if we don't win the EPL, as seems unlikely, that you lot do. Good footballing side who are maturing but, through clenched teeth and with bile rising, I fear the bitters will give you a tonking at theirs and eventually overtake. Hope sincerely I'm wrong!

Also watched Vierra/ Keanno - those were the days my friend!

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Quality posts all round.

I'll just echo the main sentiments which are we have a squad which needs major improvement and Moyes needs time to grow into the role and make the necessary changes.

also, give Moyes and the team some credit for turning things round in the second half tonight and for qualifying top of the group.

finally, really glad to see OT get behind the team tonight, even after a shocker of a 1st half.

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I got to be honest with you there dagenham, while Arsenal are my second favourite English club, I'd still rather have anyone else win the league, except maybe Liverpool.

Because what you guys have is a solid foundation. If you manage to win the league, you will keep winning it. You have a proven manager, a great football philosophy, a good academy, and you are in great financial situation, plenty of which are just like us under ferguson.

I honestly can't think of a better compliment to give you guys than I would rather City, the club I hate the most, win the league.

As for the backroom staff, I think the idea was not bad at all. he obviously wanted to build his own team but it completely backfired since he was unable to get his targets.

With the cub overhaul he supposedly has in mind, a change in the backroom staff would have cut all ties with the previous management system and allowed him to do his job.

But we failed to do so and ended p with a bunch of players lacking in certain areas with a bunch of coaches they are yet to be familiar with.

So he either had to keep the same squad and backroom staff, a formula that has proven successful in the past, or get his own players and coaches and build from scratch. It's not his fault Woodward seems unable to buy a drink at an empty bar

A couple of new first team players in January would give us a boost and improve our chances of top 4.

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Top quality post DG. I agree with every utterence.

Good luck for tonight (I don't think you need any). It is a tough place to go, but I expect you to do raffa's lot.

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Thank you Georgie_best, and a great reply from you if you don't mind me saying.
Hope you are wrong about the bitters giving us a tonking though lol.

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My pleasure gents, good luck for the rest of the season, although not too much of course lol.

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What a post! Accurate also

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Thank you samthered

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Tipped Arsenal at 14s at the start of the season. Arsene enjoyed a great 2013 and with managerial changes elsewhere in the traditional Top 4 it was a ludicrous price.

The fact Wenger spent £42m on a 'once in a lifetime' player like Ozil is much to his credit and Arsenal deserve their league title (its been a while ain't it ;) ) they will surely win this season.

I've been a glory-hunting red since 1978 so, whilst I honestly want to win every game we play and every competition we enter, I'd be a happy man if Arsenal won it this year. Good for football etc and they play some great stuff.

So.

Arsenal to win league.
United to finish Top 4.
United in Semis of UCL (and not getting embarassingly beaten!)
City winning naff all despite 'best squad in the league'.
Liverpool missing out on Top 4 despite thinking they're 'contenders'.

Believe me gents from where we are that would be a spectacularly good season!

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10 Dec 2013 21:33:24
I'm quite pro Moyes (as goes the sign off name) but does it worry anyone else with the way we've been scoring our goals? The large majority seem to be coming from corners and other set-plays. It just looks really ugly and scrappy when we do score

Tonight started badly and our play was extremely negative in the first half but you have to give credit where credit is due and Moyes did something at half time which changed us. Didn't like the way we shaped up after Van Persie and Cleverley came on. Would have thought that it would be the ideal time to try out 4-3-1-2 had he taken off Januzaj who had a quiet game compared to what we have seen which is usual for such a young player

We've all known it for a while now and tonight we really saw how bad Ashley Young is, never been United quality and was generally a pointless buy Could have got a lot more with the money we spent. Thought Buttner was poor tonight as well.

Have to say that nobody stood out for us today apart from the crowd. Obviously quiet at times but for the majority were fantastic and pulled the team through tonight. What I love to see, the true supporters rather than a lot of the plastic fans people suggest we all are

Next 5 BPL games I expect at least 13 points, given the teams were facing and then we'll see us sitting pretty in 4th!

Peace out

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I think that is a fair view of the day. I also thought kagawa had a quiet game. And I agree that januzaj should have made way.
At one stage when rvp came on, someone lobbed the ball to him, he headed on, then ran twenty yards chasing his own header.
We're still looking slow in possession and not playing with any fluidity. But we won and qualified. And we move on.

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No easy games anymore teams have worked out how to stop us playing.ive just got back from my 3rd game in 6 days and can't believe how bad we've been.tonight we got a win which hopefully might lift a bit of the nervousness in the team, but rio was shocking ashley young was worse and ryan had a very poor night giving away possesion so many times.

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10 Dec 2013 20:40:09
I've purposefully avoided my normal posting these last few months as I knew it would be tougher than our normal opening to a season and didn't want to be overly negative. However I don't know if I can restrain myself any longer. Moyes has not only turned us from a winning team to a losing team but from an attacking team to a cautious team and a confident team to a scared team. In fact we looked just like Everton has over the last decade under Moyes. Ashley young should never have been bought in the first place should never have been retained and the first action moyes had as manager should have been selling him. Giggs is useless in central midfield against any team with athletic players. Rio looks finished. But the most scary thing of all is how unenthusiastic the entire team looks. At least the Everton squads under moyes were hard-working and energetic but this squad has all of the flair of Everton without any of the work ethic. I'll post more after the match but I can't see anything good coming from this season with the way we've played thus far under the new management. And before people start screaming about how Ferguson was given years to build his own team I simply remind you that Ferguson didn't take over champions of England. Moyers didn't need to improve the team just didn't need to screw it up too badly. He failed at that.

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Any manager coming in to replace SAF had a hard job on there hands. I would say given the times we live in and how we are financially its an even harder job than when SAF came, we had great players at the club before SAF came and we were under achieving with an expensive squad of players SAF came in got rid of players that didn't cut the mustard he got rid of some top quality as well then brought the players in he wanted did he do this in the first transfer window no he didn't so there you go time and support is what Moyes really needs. Anyone who excpected him to come in make wholesale changes and sign half a dozen player was deluded he needs time to get his team right and I do think Moyes will given time investment and perseverance.

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But that's my point. He didn't be to make the changes he wanted but he inherited a team that won th league. What's the difference between last years united and this years? The manager and the results.

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10 Dec 2013 20:31:19
Get Anderson on please moyes

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10 Dec 2013 20:25:39
I read a lot about us giving Moyes a chance, but is he that blind as a manager that he does not see that Ashley Young is not good enough? Not only is Young an embarrassment as a diver, he is not good enough! Moyes wake up and see what you are doing!

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Young should never play for united again imo.

He's not hungry, has obviously made too much money and therefore doesn't really care about being the best.

I think I'd rather have the love child of gabriel obertan and david bellion playing on the wing than him.

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10 Dec 2013 20:21:08
I know we have injuries but we are getting worse each game. Just small things but why not play Keane instead of Rio. He is so past it. And young and buttner are dreadful. I can't see us getting much over Christmas.

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Keane is out on loan

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10 Dec 2013 20:18:00
What happened to the kagawa that played for Dortmund

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The players around him

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You're both right. But jred got a point, great players should be able to grab the game and impose themselves. Kagawa was playing too deep and got even deeper where he's not effective.
I'm one of his admirers, but we need to see a lot more from him.

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10 Dec 2013 18:55:51
Hey guys, my lad came home from school today with his home work, he was asked to write a poem about something he loves, after asking me a few things he went away and came up with this, he's only 13 but I thought it was pretty good, would love to see what u guys think.

Here goes,


Regardless how we are doing I will always be a red,
United is in my blood over them many of tear I've shed,

Hear the Stretford roar the lads into life,
it is always has and will be United, kids & wife.

Class is always upheld, right up to the letter,
Some say we're arrogant, but we say we're just better.


p.s amazingly ill be the first to say 'gd luck tonight lads'

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Good poem that tell him well done

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Indeed, well done.

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That was my son's peom, I have no idea why my comp never seems to keep me logged in.

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10 Dec 2013 17:57:26
Does anyone have any information about the situation surrounding Clement Grenier from Lyon? I've heard something about him being near to the end of his contract, but I'm not sure if this is true.

Have united shown any interest in him? I've only seen him two or three times and he looks like the sort of creative spark that we need in midfield, and at 22, he could be a mainstay in the team for the medium to long term.

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10 Dec 2013 17:39:38
hi gents, I posted earlier but it went on "man utd other posts" i'm a gooner by the way.
would love to know your thoughts on what I posted, let me know if you agree or disagree lol.

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{Ed004's Note - Repost what you sent in earlier while logged in and I will put it in banter}

Read it, mate. Agreed with most of it. Could you post on here more often, if only to show the lunatic fringe of our party how to act with a bit of class?

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Thanks Ed004, have just done it, bless you

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{Ed004's Note - Nb was a good post and good to see others supporters perspective}

Thank you Steviek, I 'll take that as a compliment lol

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Thanks ED

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10 Dec 2013 14:43:38
This is simply Hypothetical but looking at our UCL and EPL form. would you rather;

Finish in the top 4.

Or finish outside the top 5, with no European qualification yet actually win the Champions League.

Of course it's very unlikely that we will win the competition this year.

P.S - expect a long post from me later, I've got a few things I want to talk about.

Hope everyone is doing well and have an awesome Christmas!

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Hey moon, i'd rather win the CL. Correct me if I'm wrong but would we not qualify automatically then? Also would give us better pulling power in the transfer market as european champions against just finishing in top 4. Although as u say, highly unlikely. Have a great Christmas yourself and all the posters and eds.

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Hey moon I hope all is well mate,

Tbh if u offered me a CL I snap your hands off! Regardless how we are doing, the league title always comes first but CL is next on that list!
However I would love us to win the fa cup again, I grew up watching it and its criminal we ain't won it for so long. Its a great cup and its really sad that in football today its not considered as prestigious anymore.

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I'm with both you guys, for me the UCL in Moyes' first season would be great.

And if i'm honest, I'm actually quite optimistic about doing well in Europe, our tactics have been spot on in every game so far, it's just in some cases the lack of quality let's us down.

Yeah, if we come against the Bayerns, Madrids or Barcelonas we'll lose most likely but in some cases you get an easy route to the final.

I've just got a feeling something big will happen to United this season and in a positive way, whether it's a signing, somehow winning the league or the UCL.

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Moon, the most important thing for us is to stay in the champions league next season. While top 4 is much more realistic than winning the champions league, there is no denying it's just as big of an accomplishment as winning the league.

It would restore the fans' faith in the team, and add to Moyes' CV, showing that he can win a trophy, and end the notion that we're in crisis once and for all, therefore becoming a more attractive destination for players.

Remember the Hazard incident, where he had decided to move to one of the manchester teams until Chelsea won the champions league

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We have to get a point to night and win the group if we don't win the group europe is very close to being finished for yet another season

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Why Paddy?

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What about this moon?

Moyes turns the season around and wins the premiership? Or we finish outside the top 4 but win the champions league and FA cup? What would u rather have then?

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Winning the Champions League ensures qualification for next seasons competition; so hypothetically I'd rather we won the Champions League and finish 17th in the league than top four.

Unfortunately I see us finishing fifth or sixth in the league and going out of the Champions League in the round of sixteen unless the right signings are made next month.

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10 Dec 2013 14:21:25
I think at tonights game if things start to go bad rather than get on moyes back the fans should be giving woodward the full brunt of it let the board see that the things that that person says are not accepted I think a lot of woodward is a wa. r are in order

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In complete agreement with you mate!

Deeps.

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Or maybe get behind the team and players. Because that's what they need. Understandably we all have our frustrations with certain players, the manager was not many peoples first choice mine included. I'd of loved to see klopp. Still hoping that. I genuinely believe Woodward looks at the buisness side over football and the owners seem to care about that more.

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Not on about team on about what the person as been saying and how us fans are just mugs with a dollar sighn around our heads

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10 Dec 2013 12:56:24
well guys let's have your thoughts I personaly have this horrible feeling that moyes master plan is he dose not like kagawa and I can see him being sold with the idea of playing wiggy there then in January buying a big midfielder and a big centre half and then its only one step from hoofing it up the field because that's the only thing he nows I realy hope not or that will be the last straw what are your thoughts

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If that is the only thing he knows then why did he not play like that the whole time at Everton and hasn't played like that for us?

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He hasn't got the big hard working players to do that with us yet

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Haha it's funny, just because he played Fellaini in a CF position for a season people assumed that his tactics were to play like Stoke.

Everton were always known to play good football. Not necessarily the most attractive football but it was never boot the ball up field for the strikers to hold it up.

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Aren't the everton fans coming on the site saying how the shackles have gone from the boring football they were playing

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Aint the Everton fans known as bitters?

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Yes to wind us up, most of them were delighted with how they played under Moyes. Did you see the goal Pienaar scored at Old Trafford where they passed it round us? Hardly long ball stuff was it?

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We are known as bitters by Liverpool, and if you want to follow them then so be it.

Anyway you can attack me if you want. but I thought that team that won the league was the worst team to win the prem. But everyone else where bickering

You are in Transition, Moyes will come good BUT you need to lose some of the Older player in your Squad.

Rio has to much to say and Giggy (legend) is Fergies old Guard.

you don't turn rubbish over night, there was an underlying problem which moyes is suffering for.

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Don't say that if moyes reads that about his one and only passing goal we will be sighning spelling pienaar next

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10 Dec 2013 17:19:43
Scousedownsouth I don't think any of us have an issue with constructive feedback especially on issues we've already highlighted.

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Fair Enough. oh and Felliani is not a defensive midfielder.

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10 Dec 2013 12:20:34
After a few days of being really pi. ed off about how crap we look, I have begun to see sense again. It is clear to me that not having our key players' available for the last month or so has cost us dear. It has already been said but: If we had had Carrick and Van Persie fit for the past 4 games, we would have picked up more points and a few wins. I am convinced of that.

Moyes' seems to be procrastinating on a number of key tactical decisions. He seems to still not know the best formula for taking the club forward; but from my own point of view, it seems that he needs to grow a pair and implement the philosophy he wants and knows; for we look like a team who doesn't know what it is doing, which is a consequence of Moyes' half-heartedly trying to implement his own style, while being aware that the players' at the club are unable to deliver what he expects of them - Rooney being the exception.

Tonight's game is a chance for him to try something a little different. And who knows: he could learn a thing or two. There's a thought!

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10 Dec 2013 11:39:29
Will a convincing win tonight provoke posts about us being in with a shout of winning the CL and everything being fine again?

I'm not saying we can or can't win the CL and do doubt our chances (but both Liverpool and Chelsea have won it whilst being average in the league). just that the knee-jerk reactions to a single match are a mixture of sensible, pragmatic, interesting, comical and boring.

I'd like to see a performance and result from the lads tonight that is spurred on by a decent atmosphere generated by fans who support the club through thick and thin. Too much to wish for?

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I think winning the CL is going to be very hard for any team that isn't Bayern Munich this year. They won it last season and the team has improved with players, manager and playing style. I do think we will do quite well though.

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Not even the most optimistic fan would say we will win the CL :-). I get a feeling that if we win tonight we will get a favourable runner up in the next round but if we lose I think we will end up with Bayern Munich. I can't see past Bayern or Real this season myself.

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The reactions are equally laughable.

We lose a game, like our last two, and myself and other posters hit the board with the doom & gloom.

We win a game, and the happy clappers come out of the woodwork claiming all is rosy.

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Very hard game tonight especially with the injuries we have in defence, I shall be leaving for the ground in 30 minutes hope we stop the rut

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10 Dec 2013 09:40:22
For a change and god knows we need one, some observations on our standard of play.

I have noticed over the last few games that our centre back pairing rarely will bring the ball out to the point of screaming at the TV and instead hoof it upfield 40 yards even where there seems to be plenty of room to run forward with the ball where and I can't even see an opposition player on the TV screen. I am not sure if this is instructions from the manager or they just don't want the responsibility in case of losing the ball. Vidic has never been that way to start with and not the most confident on the ball.

The same applies for our midfielders as kagawa is the only one that is willing to take the ball and move forward. The rest tend to want to play a more stationary role and pass it backwards, sideways and little forward passes.

I also read what Pardow said about coming to OT and going for the win, but what utter nonsense as they set up with 9 or 10 players behind the ball and packed the midfield to stop us from playing. They had 2 goal scoring opportunities.

Given there is no treat from our Cb or midfielders to make darting runs forward, where the opposition players have to leave who ever they are marking and pick up the man with the ball, it makes it easy for them to pack the wings and cover our 2 main threats which are Rooney and RVP.

If I was an opposing manager, it is quite easy to defend against a team that does not offer any threat down the middle of the pitch and I know everything is coming down the wings or going long to the strikers.

I honestly can't remember the last time one of midfielders got an opposition goalie to save a shot, which is very unusual when you watch other Pl teams.

I would appreciate views as most top teams today have ball playing centre backs who bring the ball out and are very comfortable with the Idea.

Even when teams win the ball back they tend to play and pass out of defense to offense, where our guys tend to just kick it away and sit back and defend deep again as they come at us.

Whilst I rate vidic very highly, I am inclined to believe we may have to look at bringing in a CD who is comfortable bringing the ball out and has pace. On midfielders, there is nothing I can say that has not been said.

Traveling this afternoon and will miss the game tonight, hope we put in a good performance, but in reality only need a draw to win the group, so would not be surprised to see a few names on the team sheet that was not expected.

Need to be rested for Villa this weekend as that is a must win match for us given how things have gone the last few weeks.

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Anderson is our only midfielder capable of carrying any sort of threat, but he tends to over do it, therefore getting dispossessed or passing the ball straight to the opposition defenders.

And imo in a 4-2-3-1, there's less pressure on midfielders to press forward. They have more of a sit back and cover the fullbacks stance, with the wingers cutting inside and acting as virtual attacking midfielders at times, therefore creating an overload down the middle capable of giving the opposing team a horrible time, not allowing them a sniff of possession. and with the fullbacks pressing high, the wingers can be allow to move inside, interchanging and creating space for the full backs and themselves.

Therefore I believe we're better off playing rafael and Evra pushing forward supporting kagawa and januzaj, who drift inside, interchanging with Rooney and van Persie and creating space and opportunities.

The midfielders would have to be a bit more forward than usual, and the centre backs should pay a high line, suffocating the opposing team and bossing possession. But we need to have pace in our ranks to avoid counterattacks. So for now, I'd have one of Jones and Cleverley partner Fellaini, with with Evans the mainstay in the defense with either Smalling or Jones. Vidic and Ferdinand need to be pushed out because their presence is only hurting the team

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I agree although I don't think that it's just that the CB's aren't comfortable on the ball.

Both Vidic and Rio are lacking in pace, and whether or not is is a tactical decison by the managment or by the players themselves they are reluctant to puch forward for fear of leaving too much space for pacey attackers to exploit.

This is further compounded in that neither Carrick nor Fellani are the most mobile of players. They too seem fearful of leaving too much space especially when they have to compensate for Evra's forward play. The result is when the team breaks down the oppositions attack the CB's and CM's are so deep that we have almost 10 outfield players to try and beat in order to create goal scoring chances.

Most of the really good attacking teams press much higher up the pitch meaning they can attack the opposition goal much quicker when the ball is won. Bayern did this amazingly well last year in destroying Barcelona.

That for me is the key reason behind the lack of quality attacking play in our team not just this year but in the previous 1/2 seasons also.

I agree with needing the midfielders to have shots from range though. Even if it's just to win corners, or hope that the save falls kindly for one of our players. I remember Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez peppering the goal with shots from everywhere - that's before Nani, Scholes and the others.

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Shahram

I agree with most of your post except the Kagawa bit. This is probably why I am extremely disappointed with him. He is reluctant to run with the ball and is too often intent on chosing the safer option. He has his give and go's but only when there is someone on his wave length. He does not beat him man often and is easily pushed off the ball.

I am sure he will look much better with better technical players around him, but to be honest he does not look half the player he looked at Dortmund. While some of it is because of our sleep walking players, he will have to take some blame as well.

Deeps.

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Tactically we have 4 main problems.

First, like you said our defenders are not bringing the ball out of defence and are too ready to play it long. This is because (a) Vidic isn't a very good ball player, Rio doesn't have the legs, Jobes has been shifted to midfield and Smalling is a terrible passer. This leaves us with Evans as the only ball playing CB. If you bring in Gary, like we should have in the summer, this will help us in this area. But (b), the bigger problem, is that our CM are playing too deep. Our midfield is playing really close to the CBs and this means that they are not getting the space to bring the ball forward. To get the most from ball playing defenders you need a midfield who are wiling to push up and offer an outlet for a forward pass.

The second problem is that our midfielders simply aren't good enough. This has been done to death but you can see that players like RVP and Hernandez are frustrated that the ball isn't coming forward quick enough, and it is telling that we had the lowest number of forward passes in the league last weekend. We need players who can take the ball forward and pick out our forwards' runs. However, as you say, it is also obvious that teams will continue to play 3 in the centre to exploit our formation.

Third, we are far too one sided in most games. By playing players like Kagawa and Welbeck on the left we are focusing most of our play to the right hand side. These players are drifting from the left wing to centre, leaving us very predictable in attack and leaving Evra completely exposed in defence. The problem is that the alternatives, Nani and Young, are consistently poor. The other alternative is to keep playing Januzaj, but he is too young to play every week. The truth is that we need a top class left sided player.

Finally, our attacking play seems to be focused on making space down the wing, primarily the right wing, and the crossing the ball. The problem with this is that our wingers are failing to create anything with their crosses and our strikers are not the type of players who thrive on crosses into the box. Valencia has about 10 crosses in every game, and about one of these finds a United player. We need to find some penetration down the middle because teams know that if they keep our strikers shackled, they can deal with our wing play.

Ultimately, I honestly think that we need to move to 3 in the middle. The lopsided 4-4-2 isn't working and teams now know how to get a result against us.

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GCU, I agree with your post and it is clear to see for all of us how little threat we pose through the middle.
On the subject of our CB's staying back, this intself creats problems as they are often pushed back and once they hoof the ball up, then the opposition midfielders can come back straight at them only 10 yard from our goal area.
Our reluctanacy to come out of defence is also to do with the slowness of our CB's, they are scared to go forward in case they lose the ball, and with no pace, we will be caught out again.
A quick CB and two athletic midfielders will transform the team.

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Some good tactical analysis in these posts. is there anything positive about the way we are playing at the moment?

the only point I would question is from danny. why do you say januzaj is too young to play every week?

I appreciate he is still developing physically and we have to be careful not to overplay him, but I certainly think he looks good enough to be first choice for the first team and should be getting as many games as we think he can handle

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Andrew the lad is 18, and although his ability is not in question, I don't think that 18 year olds should have the pressure of being first choice on them. Players like Giggs, Scholes, Beckham and even Ronaldo were all used sparingly at his age because the manager knew that you have to allow a player learn and make mistakes before they are expected to perform every week.

Look at Michael Owen, played too much at a young age and was past his best at 25. It is great that Januzaj is getting games, but players like him and Zaha should be understudies to top quality experienced players who they can learn from.

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Danny - In the case of our defence, it's a case of the chicken or the egg. Is our defence being prevented from playing further up the pitch by our deep midfield or is our midfield sitting deep because our defence won't push up at the back and they don't want to leave a big gap in between? Personally I think that if we had a defender with pace and who can pass, he would then force our midfielders forward and we would see much better from a few of them.

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Danny, I agree its important not to over play young players and there are numerous examples where it has created problems later in their careers.

however, there are also players where its not been a problem such as Rooney and giggs.

januzaj is the best winger we have which is why he should be first choice. surely one game a week wouldn't be a problem physically or mentally?

also, he seems to have the right temperament to be able to handle the pressure and many young players are able just to enjoy playing and not worry about it.

whats more, I think the utd supporters are very supportive of young players. we dontvexpectvthe moon on a stick from them and I can't see there's any pressure on januzaj to be the saviour of Manchester utd.

I guess I just want to see the lad playing more because he's quality

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Danny, just to back up my point about giggs, he made 51 appearances in hisvsecond season, 46 in his third and 58 in his forth.

I don't have the stats for how many of those were full games but either way its still a lot of first team experience.

also, Rooney signed for us when he was 18 and he had already played 77 times for Everton. in his first two seasons at it he played 43 and 48 games respectively.

you also mention ronaldo. he came to OT when he was 18 and made 40 appearances in hisvfirst season, 50 in his second and 47 in his third.

Beckham was slightly different and only started making significant number of appearances when he was 20. the same is true of scholes.

januzaj certainly has the ability and it looks like he has the temperament as wee. like I say, I can't believe playing him once a week would do anything but benefit him and the team.

you talk about learning from top quality experienced professionals and I can't think of any better education than playing alongside rvp and Rooney against top opposition

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10 Dec 2013 17:26:56
Andrew Giggs was quite injury probe in his mid 20s from playing too much too young. An issue he only solved with yoga which has led to his longevity.

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Mr E, this is the number of games a season Giggs played, starting in 90/91 season at the age of 17:

2, 51, 46, 58, 40, 44, 37, 37, 41, 44, 45, 37, 41, 44, 45, 40, 59, 47, 44, 37, 44, 43, 47, 32, 38, 33, 32, 13 (so far this season).

Not really much of a dip in his mid twenties but a slight one I'll grant you.

Surely all professional footballers should practice Yoga given the obvious and extrordinary benefits Giggs has demonstrated.

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Andrew Giggs has give up an awful lot. He doesn't drink anymore, and basically spends the entire week keeping his body ready for the next game. What he can still do at 40 is remarkable, but he himself admits that he had to completely change every aspect of his life to prolong his career.

My point isn't that we shouldn't play Januzaj. He should play and be regular feature in the team. The difference between players like Giggs and Ronaldo, and Januzaj isn't just physical (although he is a very slight lad) it's about pressure and expectation. Giggs and Ronaldo were allowed develop knowing that others would step up if the didn't perform. Januzaj, on the other hand, would be forced into a position where the brunt of the creative pressure would be directly on his shoulders. We need a top class left sided player who can allow Januzaj to develop without the burden of expectation. The left side isn't even the lad's best position anyway.

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Giggs had persistent hamstring problems, the same as Owen, but Giggs took to yoga.

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Danny, perhaps then the only thing we see differently is the expectation placed on januzaj as a first choice player.

I reckon the expectation and pressure on him would be minimal. we all recognise he is in then team on merit but because he is so young, we understand he will make mistakes and is in no way the finished article.

I think most supporters would be just happy to see one of our young talents playing his natural game without placing any expectations on him.

I'm not sure where you see the perceived pressure on januzaj would come from if he played more 1st team football?

we have options if he needs a break but for now we should just trust him to get on with it and enjoy himself. he's in good form and utd look a better team with him in it. he certainly never looks fazed by anything as far as I can tell

perhaps we've debated this one to death and at the end of the day you would just play him a little less than I would.

what I'm sure we both agree on he's a very special talent and I'm sure we have some great moments from him to look forward to. in fact, we should be excited about a number of young players who are just about ready to start integrating into the first team squad.

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10 Dec 2013 08:57:04
I have to say I never thought Moyes was the man for the job. What summed it up for me was the reaction of ssn spain, SAF retiring was headline front and back page news. When asked about Moyes as a replacement they had no idea who he was!
Having said that Moyes has inherited a Team in decline. The core of the Team are ageing and the 'new blood' just aren't cutting it! If the whole united team was put up for sale how many of Europes top clubs would come calling?
Lets be realistic, the Glazers will not dig deep to help but one or ideally two top signings are desperately needed to lift the players and the fans and to instill fear back into the opposition. And then we need to hope our top youth players come through. Januzaj, Powell, Lindgard, Wilson and Perreira all look like exceptional talent if they continue to develop.

United til I die, but the way they are being run at the moment makes me feel like I'm being cheated on!

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Agree about feeling cheated I let my season go in summer for that reason and I don't see under the glazers anything ever changing so we will have to live with it

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No name, you forgot to mention pearson and enkagame, both of these are excellent at what they do.
Personally, I would rather see them in the team than Wig.

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10 Dec 2013 02:46:12
Moyes is accepting full responsibility for the performances and soaking up a lot of the pressure, like any good manager should. He is nowhere near the only problem at United.

Lets look at some of the problems that the United team has :-

1. Vidic and Rio are very slow and past it, need replacement. This means we play very deep, inviting pressure on an already weak midfield.

2. Cleverley only keeps possession, does nothing else well enough. Has no pace or any great strength. He is only a squad player.

3. A left back who makes defensive mistakes.

4. Injuries and suspensions (the most important one) :-

Not being able to field a side with Rvp, Rooney, Jones, Carrick, Rafael in the same team has cost us big time. The amount of games in which we have had only Rvp or Rooney and not both is shocking. Moyes hasn't been able to field a consistent team because of it.

Players with workrate like Welbeck have also been missing.

5. Poor creation from the wingers.

6. Too many "squad" players and not enough first teamers.

These are problems that Moyes has INHERITED, none of them are problems of his own creation. We were talking about these exact same problems last summer weren't we? The club failed to bring in the players required to address these issues. With Fabregas/Herrera and Baines/Herrera signed a large part of these problems would have been solved.

These problems aren't something that will be fixed overnight, it will take at least 2-3 transfer windows to address these issues.

Sir Alex had the good fortune last season of having Rvp, Carrick, Rafael fit for large parts of last season and Rooney fit and on form when Rvp was injured.

I don't know if David Moyes is the right man for the job, but not even halfway into the season with just one transfer window gone (in which the club failed to get 2 of his three top targets) is not something on which i'm going to judge Moyes. Arguments like "Moyes spent 27 mil on Fellaini so should we trust him with the money" make me laugh. Moyes only decides which players he wants, the manager DOES NOT negotiate the price.

Moyes' teams at Everton had commitment, a strong midfield, were strong in the tackle and were defensively very good. We have seen of none of that philosophy yet at United, which tells me that the players share a large part of the blame as well and Moyes is not the only one to blame. This is the first time or after a long time a lot of these players are playing under a new manager. Look at Chelsea, even though they have quality players they are struggling for consistency under Jose, City are struggling away from home under Pelligrini with such a strong squad, perhaps the strongest ever in the EPL, Spurs have spent a fortune yet don't seem to find any consistency.

This isn't Moyes' team, its Sir Alex's worst title winning team which was already on the decline last season and is in need of "major retooling" and maybe the equalizer has realized it now. It will be far fairer to judge Moyes once he has shaped the team in the way he wants after having brought in a few of his own targets.

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Redfaith

I don't have time for a full reply this morning

Welbeck isn't good enough and his reintroduction after Bayern away caused us a problem in our shape. He also hasn't a clue where the goal is.
Fellaini is not so much the price, or how it was negotiated, but that the manager chose him as a player that could improve us and then find he isn't good enough to start even when Carrick is injured. How does that give us confidence that Moyes can choose anything other than Everton standard players? He has brought Everton coaches and scouts in, we are except for the colour Everton of old and that concerns me greatly.

I wonder what your thoughts are on the demeanour of the players on Saturday plus Evans and Rio's comments. To me this is very concerning so early in Moyes tenure and if he has lost dressing room it is very difficult to get it back without getting rid of players like SAF did, however Moyes doesn't have anywhere near the confidence of the team or power base built up to be sure even that would work.

Lastly I have yet to see a reason why Moyes deserves our trust in this position. He has not demonstrated he can win anything or play entertaining football. We are at a crossroads where it will costs tens of millions if he gets it wrong yet we are to blindly trust him?

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Redman

"lost the dressing room"

I guess players saying their confidence level is low because of how results have gone means they have lost trust in the manager in your book.

You are making stuff up mate and no evidence of that. Why do you use every statement in the press, who have a tendency to twist things to argue your case and draw conclusions.

Why not use RVP's statement from yesterday saying he is raring to go and loves playing with Rooney and how they make each other better. BTW there was an interesting thing he also said" the wingers and midfielders need to contribute with goals" now that is shocker. Maybe we can also interpret that as him saying they are useless and rubbish :)

On your last point let the club back him with proper money like all the other stop teams and see how he does.

I guess you will reply that he can not be trusted given the Fellaini purchase. I think 27.5 was a waste of money but he will not be the first or last manager no matter how great they are to get it wrong with a player and the Jury is still out with Fellaini. God know Fergie got a lot of them wrong in the last few years.

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Shahram

I sometimes feel, people want Moyes to get in the shorts and show our players how to play on the pitch by literally being on the pitch and preferrably playing as a midfielder ;)

I am no fan of Moyes, but I will be a person to judge him after 15 games with a SAF recruited squad. Most of our glass half empty posters were up in arms last season with the standard of football. Even Fergie was subject to a bit of ridicule. Some people will have a problem either way, if he had continued with SAF's men, he would have been labelled a chicken. We are serving up utter dross right now, Moyes will have to take responsibility for that. But what about the players who were playing out of their skins for Fergie who are playing Sunday league stuff. How does that talk about their professionalism? They are being paid and paid bloody good to come and perform. "Lost the dressing room" cannot be an excuse for playing like sh!te. What on earth is Moyes supposed to do when people like Welbeck miss open goal free headers from 5 yards?

Time to wake up and smell the coffee folks. Our first 11 is average and I am being kind. That excuse of "they walked the league last year" is nothing but a testament to SAF's brilliance and other teams being poor. Give Moyes a fair deal, judge him this time next season, feel free to ridicule him then if things look bad. Has anyone even considered how much of a chance he has, if Woody and his thugs don't back him at all? Look at his(Woody) comments, that is what is disgraceful, if you want someone gone, it should be Woodward.

Just so everyone knows, Moyes was not even in the first 10 managers I would have picked for the role. I am not a huge fan of his. He has made some mistakes and is not the most articulate manager around when it comes to facing the media. But what I am trying to be is objective. It was Fergie who decided to skip the normal way to shortlist a manager. Is that Moyes' fault? Now that he is in, let him have a fair crack at it. We are not short of explitives and choice words as it is, let's wait to have a moan.

Deeps.

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@Red Man

I stated Welbeck for his workrate, which has been missed.

Fellaini is only the tip of the iceberg. Moyes also went in of Fabregas, Herrera, Baines, Coentrao, Khedira and De Rossi. All top quality players.

You are clearly judging Moyes based on one signing.

My thoughts on Rio's comments are that they have been taken completely out of context.

Nobody is asking to blindly trust him, I am merely pointing out that its a collective blame on the players, owners, the new chief exec and the transition to a new manager.

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Yeah Deeps!

We need at least 11 players to make us compete again since our manager is average with an average squad. This year is gone does not matter which player we buy. He won't implement anything new now with the players we have, even if we buy Gundogan, he won't be able to run all over the pitch alone.


It's truth that our Squad is poor but we're better than this and not even SHAHRAM can argue with that. You won't tell me that we're not playing better due the the lack of Quality. Even against very lower teams(in terms of quality) we fail to show any superiority.

Few players are under performing and Moyes is not helping himself.

Whether we like it or not he's the manager, but the TRUTH is that he's not a proven winner and with one or two seasons he has to prove he deserves to be here and this must be every day.

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Nick

I give it to you, he is not a proven winner(so far) but tell me something. What would you have done if you were in Moyes' shoes? If someone like SAF approached you with the biggest job in a managerial capacity anywhere in the world(yeah yeah I am biased), would you have denied it saying "thats more than I can chew"?

I think people more often than not vent their SAF/Glazaer/Woodward related frustrationsat Moyes. He deserves some criticism yes, but he is not entirely responsible for the wreck. Was SAF obligated in any way, shape, manner or form to chose him? Did the Glazers want an "out of contract manager" to save the compensation? Whatever the reasons are, no one could have said a no to this job.

Deeps.

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GCU

I based my comment on the players based on Rio's comment and my reading of their body language not just on Saturday but distinctly on Saturday. There was no fight and it looked like professionals doing a job, no more.

REDFAITH

I agree it is not just Moyes at fault here, my thoughts on the owners and the transition have been shared on here. However I have also shared my concerns on Moyes as for me he is a major risk to our continued success. Time will tell but we trusted OFarrell, particularly Sexton and Atkinson for too long with our sense of loyalty

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