Manchester United Banter Archive February 10 2014

10 Feb 2014 22:15:14
What is going on at our club? Well, there has been no confidence in the manager from day 1 and the confidence of the players has been dwindling ever since day 1. Yes he has given Januzaj his chance but players like Zaha who are very talented haven't had a look in with Valencia, Nani, Young et al getting in their way. The formation is antiquated and the team selection at the best of times is bizarre if not unfortunate at times. Injuries have played a part, Fellaini has been unable to settle in, we have been without RVP & Rooney and we have also not had a settled centre back pairing.

If we are to stick with Moyes (and I am undecided as to whether we should or shouldn't), there has to be a big change. The quality of football has to improve, this will lead to other positive things. The 4-4-2 has to end, we have to choose one of 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1. All of those are modern formations and are massive improvements on what we currently play. Carrick or Fellaini need a run of games holding, Rooney alongside and then we have many players who could play in a 4-2-3-1. I hope this is where we go.

Have to agree with you - put Rooney alongside Carrick for the rest of the season until we get someone decent in the summer

Fresh Zaha used social media for something today that was having a pop at Moyes, the bloke is doing nothing to make a place at the club he needs to grow up

@fresh we have been playing 4-2-3-1 all season and it hasn't worked and neither has playing rooney in midfield I think mata would be a better option to fill in till the end of the season.

Rooney along Carrick would be a very, very bad idea. Neither is physically capable of being the defensive minded midfielder, unless you count Rooney's constant fouling defensive capability.

Carrick needs someone to do his dirty work and allow him to concentrate on positioning and pulling the strings, while Rooney would need a defensive minded midfielder next to him to allow him to move forward.

A Carrick Fellaini partnership is the one that makes most sense defensively ( once they adapt ), and a Jones Rooney partnership is very attacking minded, but reasonably balanced.

Next to Carrick, fellaini would be given more freedom to attack and just make life miserable for both us and the opposing teams, while Jones' pace and constant movement in front of the back 4 would allow Rooney to get forward.

That said, neither partnership is anywhere good enough for a team of our stature

10 Feb 2014 20:14:43
I said it before and I will continue to say it.SAF chose his replacement and as he was SAF the board and owners obviously took his advice as you would. After all who knows Utd better than him.

Unfortunately SAF chose a SCOTTISH manager and not the correct manager for the job.

We are a club now in the position Everton were with DM at the helm.

That proves that he is at best a mid table manager and will always be!

Moyes isn't at fault here because he was given a job that was too big for him. The board and in particular SAF were wrong with their choice and must now put it right before any more damage is done.

10 Feb 2014 19:13:45
Hey Sidney,
we were chatting about Rooney's role in the team a few weeks ago. Towards the end of AF reign he played Rooney in midfield and lead to him looking to leave by all accounts because it wasn't his preferred position. I've noticed that DM has started doing this also in the last couple of games albeit not from the start. Do you think Utd will end up in the same situation with Rooney given he hasn't yet committed to your club with a new contract. I just don't see DM changing his tactics to suit the players he has. He seems more intent on trying to get the players to play out of position to suit his style, especially the likes of kagawa and mata

10 Feb 2014 18:53:32
For the youth football fanatics, Keane, Varela, Pearson Rothwell, Lingard, Janko, Petrucci and Perreira are starting tonight vs West Ham. All potential first teamers in the future. Worth a watch imo

Mick I've a mountain of coursework to get through you couldn't please give us a review of them after the game? Cheers

Sure thing.

The final score was 2-1, but the score wasn't a good indication of how the game went.

We absolutely bossed it. Didn't create as many chances as we could have but the interchanging, quick passing and possession maintaining was mangnificent. West Ham hardly touched the ball, and their goal was against the run of play.

Our first goal was scored by Keane, who turned and got a shot off on the edge of the area. West Ham managed to equalise and 46 seconds later, Perreira managed to score a goal reminiscent of Young vs Arsenal. It was a screamer.

Now for the stand out players. Well the whole team had a relatively great game, but some took it to the next level. Rothwell wa s magnificent and all over the place, Petrucci stands a man among boys, Varela is very solid. Keane and Perreira obviously scored

Moyes must be licking his lips thinking about Janko though. he is not one of the stand outs, but he is strong, quick, direct, hard working, and likes to cross.

Seems very promising thanks mick!

10 Feb 2014 18:45:43
There sadly appears to be a growing belief that Moyes may be removed from his post. This is quite transparent within the media, bookmakers odds, pubs, clubs, forums and social media. Like it or not, these are influencing factors that have been known to motivate change within the minds of decision makers.

To this point we as supporters have no very little understanding of how the Glazers react when their prized asset is seriously under-performing off and on the pitch. Some evidence can be seen however when a Superbowl winning coach was removed from Tampa Bay in 2009, some 6-years after John Gruden lead them to their first superbowl in 2003. Their form after this success never looked like being repeated, yet it was still 6-years before he was removed from post. However, since 2009 and issues with dropping revenue, Tampa Bay have appointed three new head coaches suggesting less patience with their selections.

All of this talk about United's traiditions count for nothing now. We are in the hands of corporate decision makers, not a single family. As such there must be a real possibility that Moyes may not last the season, however, there needs to be a balanced consideration of the Moyes dilemma/debate. Its clear what the negative factors are on the face of the situation, however lurking underneath the surface its worth considering the following factors:

1. A large part of the current squad, including many senior players, will not be at United in 18 months time. Either age, quality or personal desires dictate that. As such performance levels have dropped.

2. The Directors have faith in Moyes (demonstrated by his appointment.) They are aware of the above, and know that the current team/squad is not good enough. As such removing the manager will make no difference to short term performances.

3. Removing Moyes now will create a surge of player-power within the club, something that SAF has spent his entire career preventing happening anywhere. John Gruden at Tampa had a similarly ruthless streak.

4. To suggest that Moyes is using inappropriate tactics, tactics that have served United well for its entire history, is unfair on Moyes. Its the quality of players available that makes a team, not simply the formation of them. If the Keane and Scholes of 1999 were in the centre of our midfield now, using 4-4-2 we would not be 7th in the league, we would be top.

These are indisputable, and for those that want to see Moyes out, the dilemma is that it will take the appointment of an unquestionably world-class manager to prove most of the above wrong - and none of those are coming this way even if Moyes is removed from post.

The fact is we have a manager struggling with the toughest job currently available in football leading a team that is not good enough, and no pundit can say with absolute certainty which is the biggest issue right now, player or manager. The consequences for getting either wrong are stark. It may even be that both are wrong. Either way, the deepest evil of all three is removing the manager when the manager is not the weakest link.

For that reason Moyes has to stay. for now.

One of the best posts that I have ever read on this site. Almost every sentence fails all tests of logic. This is world record-breaking.

Phoey! The way some people talk about this squad you would think they were a newly promoted championship side. Yes they need improving but to suggest their lack of quality is why we have struggled to beat bottom of the table teams is total hogwash. Why do dome of you refuse to see the elephant in the room?

We haven't been playing 4-4-2 we have been playing 4-2-3-1 all season!

Not posted in a while, been pretty grim all round, but no name, wow, do you actually support Manchester United. The manager is clearly the weakest link. Moyes is a hack. I don't think he actually has a clue. Some of his decisions really leave me scratching my head. The team is so disjointed and unbalanced, the body language of the players says so much. So little belief throughout the squad. A horrible style of play. This squad romped the title last year. Moyes is massively out of his depth. He'll probably see the season out and hopefully will be gone immediately after the season has ended. As for the formations, christ knows what they are.
Other managers are now saying that Moyes will get it right and that he should be given time. Well of course they are because they want to see the club continue sliding down. And it has got nothing to do with luck, I'm not having that. We used to respond to adversity and bad decisions. Now the manager, players and fans are crying about it!
And yes, what we need is a world class manager, isn't that obvious, we have just had one of the greatest managers ever, (I put Busby above Ferguson for so many reasons), the replacement needs to be of that same calibre. Anyway, I'm really fed up with Moyes. He has shown me nothing but complete ineptitude.

The Big Lewandowski

10 Feb 2014 18:23:57
Alot of negativity on the site and rightly so. I think most of us agree that Moyes is not the right person to lead us forward however, we are still Manchester United and next up for us is one of our old foes, Arsenal. Personally, I am going to get behind the team and say come on Utd. We've not had a lot to cheer about so far so do it for us, the fans and the believers. Let us at least shut the gooners up.

10 Feb 2014 17:45:30
Here's a worrying statistic. Moyes' win rate at Preston was 48% & at Everton 42%. In all competitions at United he has averaged 55%, making his tenure with us on average the most successful of his entire management career! :(

:) posts like this make me smile. Nice one, mate.

Glad to have made you smile Stevie. It seems you were right all along, he has improved since Everton ;)

I knew it!

At least there's a bit of thought and originality gone into your post :)

10 Feb 2014 16:26:51
Alex Ferguson once said nobody is bigger than the club, if anybody was seen to undermine the clubs values he kicked them out, if anybody caused disharmony in the dressing room off they went, if anybody risked damaging the clubs image they were jettisoned, well that is exactly what Moyes is doing. Please get rid now and try salvage what is left of the season.

We need to improve our form or top players won't come regardless of how much money we try to throw at them. I do feel sorry for moves as he never actually applied for the job, he was simply given it and I feel it is a job too far for him.

10-20 years ago we could afford to give him 2/3 years to get it right, but I just don't think we can afford to in today's footballing world.

Who would I try and replace him with. I am not sure, but I can see parallels between Diego simeone at athletics and fergie. Diego is performing against the duopoly that exists in Spain (Madrid & Barcelona) on a significantly lower budget. He comes from a tough background, is as hard as nails and appears to be able to get he best out of his players. All traits fertile had and traits moyes seems to lack. But why would he leave a high flying athleti who are likely to secure a place in the champions league for Utd.

I also like klopp. But again why would he leave Dortmund, I also rate ancelotti and think he was really unlucky to lose his job at Chelsea. I just don't think moves has the tactical ability to sort out United in the short to medium term. Sorry time for David to go.

Instead of fertile I think you mean Fergie haha. Made my day. Good post though.

If ever there was a post that said, try re-reading your post before hitting send, this was it. Between moves instead of Moyes and fertile instead of Fergie amongst other errors (bloody fruit logo tablet auto correct) no advertising here. I am glad I gave you a laugh, but I stand by what I poster minus the spelling issues.

10 Feb 2014 16:14:34
Ok I think deep down most people know moyes is not a top 4 manager and that we or should I say the board got it wrong. It happens in football just take avb at Chelsea for instance. I never wanted to call for a manager to be sacked and not given time to show what he can do but moyes is clueless his tactics inept and he fails to inspire fans and his players with his poor style of play and terrible post match interviews. We have players in our dressing room who are world class and who have won almost everything in the game and then we send david moyes in to manage them. Look moyes is a good honest man and at best top ten manager but not Manchester United quality I mean the man has won nothing not even a capital cup so how is he going to manage top class players or get them to perform. Chelsea, Man City, Barca, Real and Psg all got new coaches last summer and all have performed well and challenged for trophies and we have seen records broken for all wrong reasons and struggled against poor teams conceding late goals at ot especially. I have heard a lot of fans say its the players but I don't believe this as I still maintain this team under ferguson would at least be challenging for the top 4 would defo have not lost the c cup semo or fa cup to Swansea and I know people say that's ferguson a one off but I don't buy that either as I am sure mourinho. klopp. pep or any other top manager would have us a lot higher. That tells you moyes is the problem with his bad tactics of crossing and slow methodical football and failure to affect games and I also believe the players do not respect him enough and do not buy into his system which is a disaster. I really do not want to see moyes with cash as at the minute i'm scared for us as it is. At the start of the season I did not expect to win the league I didn't even expect a trophy but the one thing I and all utd fans demanded was top 4 and I cannot see moyes getting us there which leads to financial consequences as well as transfer targets not coming there is also the fact the scousers are likely to be the ones in fourth which really pees me off to be honest and moyes old club everton have a slight chance and are far better since moyes left them. I do not believe in moyes as the man to bring the club on and I do not think the style will change or that he is tactically good enough at this level. I think the board should do the right thing and make a change as it may be too late for this year but we could then build on for next season. My choice to be the next coach would be jurgen klopp I think he could make us a dynamic team again. What do other fans reckon?

I totally agree with you, Moyes is a good manager but only for a small club, he has the mentality of an under dog, he is tactically naive and yesterday proved it.
I think he has lost the dressing room and can't see it improving any time soon

Decent man, good manager at a smaller club where ambitions are not as high as United. But a Manchester United manager! Not in a million years. You could give him £200m and that would not make a jot of difference if he keeps playing the same old tactics and playing people out of position.
In addition, I think his assistants have zero experience at coaching winning teams. So how did they all come to get this job? God knows!
I actually feel sorry for the guy, as in addition to his inexperience and lack of trophies, he has also had injuries to contend with. But fergie had a load of these and managed to keep us at the top.
I don't buy into the we don't have good players argument, we have superb players up front and a very good goalkeeper and a good fullback in Rafael. We also have experience at cb all be it vidic and Rio are getting old. There is no way that this team shloulkd be where it is at the moment. There now no way that this team should have conceded two goals against a Fulham side who were the worst side to have visited ot in years.
The team is defending poorly as a unit, this comes from lack of tactical knowledge and application.
No amount of money is going to turn David Moyes, a decent man, an average quality manager, into a klopp or pep or mourinho. He simply does not possess the acumen and knowledge and charisma to be a top quality manager.

Bigmac

Why do you think he has lost the dressing room? is this based on a fact or just guessing.

Nomidfield, you spent most of last season posting on here that the team was rubbish. What's changed your mind?

10 Feb 2014 18:54:53
GCU he said he thinks he has lost the dressing room, clearly no inside info just one guys observations. u continually pick holes in the littlest of things just to justify your unyielding affection for Mr Moyes. none of us have the inside knowledge to know exactly what's going on at our great club but one thing is for sure. all is not well and that ultimately is the managers responsibility

GCU

Sounds like a 10 yr old who knows it all!

Devil Dust

Asked you again how old are you and behave yourself.

I usually try to pick on people my own size:)

ajs71

Not joining in every negative rumors and blaming the manager for everything and asking for the mangers head is not about unyielding affection.

There are many people responsible for our current position in the table including the manager and Players. I do not believe in sacking people until they have an opportunity to make their mark and it could be any other manager and I would still have the same view.

He has made his share of mistakes and if you ask me it is trying to please the fans like you lot by playing attacking football.yep you heard it, way too many offensive players and not enough defense to protect a weak midfield and back four. No team in any sport can win with a weak defense.

Anyway all the stuff about him being sacked is an absolute waste of time, he is not going anywhere and trust me on that is not from the papers and has substance behind it.

He also has the complete backing of the board so you guys need to get used to it. He will end up going if this time next year we are not showing major sign of being on our way back. He will get major funds this summer and we will see quite bit of change.

10 Feb 2014 20:54:04
GCU
fans like me wanting too much attacking football? I have never said anything other than stop lumping the ball in aimlessly and start passing which is why I presume mata was bought by moyes
as for your comment about him having the boards full backing may I ask how you know this? Are u privy to what's going on right now within the corridors of power at Old Trafford? If this season gets any worse you may well be eating humble pie sooner rather than later. he cannot motivate the players or improve their abilities using the coaches he hired so why is it amyone elses fault but his own that we have fallen so quickly from being premiership champs 2012/2013 season?

Ajs71

It is not as simple as throwing mata in the mix and suddenly we are transformed. There are too many players that are of the same mould and not enough of what we are badly need.

On the question of club related issue, watch the news in the next few days :)

We are an old team that lacks pace and has a poor spine. That is our biggest issue both defensively and offensively. When I say speed I am not talking about individual players but team speed.

Even with all our problems we should have 5 or 6 more points and be in a cup final but for some individual howlers.

All in all it has made things look a lot worse than they should have been. if we were sitting 3 points off 4th place most people, who realize the team needs a rebuild would not be freaking out.

It is easy to lay blame but sometimes life is grey and nothing is black and white and our manager could be anyone else and I would still have the same view.

My own personal choice was Guardiola but if you have followed the site, I never rated last years team, so not surprised at all by some of the results but not to this extent LOL

10 Feb 2014 22:45:13
GCU
i look forward to the revelations coming out of Old Trafford in the next few days as well as the draw at Arsenal you have predicted. our style of play should have been changed in the seven months moyes has been there not just because we bought mata. Martinez has done it with a smaller squad that's ageing(Distin, Jagielka, Osman, Barry) all key players that have bought into the managers philosophy plus Baines has been injured as well as their only recognised striker Lukaku. why do we hide behind all the excuses when only carrick rio vidic and evra are considered old when in reality they were all pretty useless last year and not the youngest but won the league. we also have 3 young cbs to cover rio and vidic and moyes has brought in two midfielders in mata and fellaini as well as been lucky to have januzaj to bring in

To be fair GCU you do talk utter drivel some times. I've come to the conclusion that you and StevieK are only on this site to play devils advocate because you simply refuse to accept what everyone else has witnessed.unless of course you have invented the flux capacitor, travelled forward to the year 2017 and witnessed the great David Moyes lead us to an historic quadruple. I get it now you're being cryptic.all he needs is TIME:-)

Unitedred71

Utter drivel is a Panic firing and not understanding what is going on. I am not being cryptic and sorry about not joining in the hysteria. Some of you remind me of the KKK and you got your ropes out and bonfire and want to ave a good old fashion hanging. LOL

Ajs71

At least state the facts. Martinez inherited a 6th place team and added Barry, lukaku, Delafoe and Mcarthy and lost Fellaini.

Let's wait and see how he goes by the end of the season. If you fancy a bet, I will bet you he will have less points and lower finish than last year.

He has had no injuries until Lukaku 2 weeks ago. Why do you all biggie everyone and put ourselves constantly down strange.

We have been besieged by injuries all year, I know it must moyes training because these guys never got injured before and all have such a great history right?

On tomm game I am actually betting us winning and drawing. The odds are as good as you will ever get on a united team.

No revelation out of OT mate just a simple statement that the board and owners back him 100%. I know it will disappoint a lot of people here.

10 Feb 2014 15:00:58
Seeing Rooney celebrate after our 2nd goal I thought is this the Rooney of old?

But 300k is too much imo.

I'll rather have it in Rooney pocket than the glazers

10 Feb 2014 14:24:38
whats the score going to be on wed night against arsenal I've got a feeling we are going to get our arses kicked, thoughts?

10 Feb 2014 14:41:32
After watching Mata and United yesterday I have to ask the question why did we buy Mata.

Top class player but do we need him, do we need that type of player when we all ready have Rooney and kags who can play the 10 role.
Where does Mata fit in to this team .
Great player great vision and touch but very slow, isn't going to get up and down the pitch.
He was Chelsea best player but didn't fit Jose style and when you watch William you can see why.
I can't help thinking we bought a player simply because he was available rather than buying a player that we actually need.
38 mill for a player that while very good we possibly don't need .

Herrera would of improved us more than Mata imo

One last thing before the same old people start with let's sell Rooney . What if Rooney signs a new contract and continues to play10 (which I think he will ) why have we bought Mata.

Why can't we have mata and herrera and play a formation and tactics that suit the team rather than ones that suit stoke from 2 yrs ago, mata is awesome played correctly, we have roo but chelsea had willian hazard and oscar 4 into 3 didn't go, differant situation at old trafford, we can and need to accomadate him, differant tactics wouldve opened up fulham not playing mata wide, lumping crosses into nobody, over and over again but yes let's blame mata.

Easy, on the left but Moyes can only play a 442.
He needs two maybe three world class midfielders so we can go with three the middle.
Mata left, Janujaz right, Rooney just in behind RVP.
Sadly I can't see this happening.
Why he insisted on playing Young is beyond me. Janujaz should of started on the right, Mata left.

Simm
I don't think he us quick enough to play wide even in that formation I think he needs ti play 10. I think Jose may of been right he leaves massive gaps very similar to the issues we had with kags.
The money would of been better spent on a reus hazard type player IMO

Jred

I know why Mourinho likes Wilian and preferred him. I read somewhere he calls is unit pace or something like that where a triangle or a line of three need to have similar pace when moving. Basically the idea is to have players who can move forward and backward with consistent pace that is equal to each other to maintain certain lines and passing lanes.

LOL in contrast our team has slow and slower and nobody moves in one unit.

I do agree we have too many number 10's but can still play Mata down the left in 4231 but need much better fullbacks both defensively and offensively. The two lads from Everton would be ideal:)

Gcu
We could play him there but I think for 38 mil we could of got some one more suited to the roll with more pace

Jred, good point but mata is a superb player if played in his right position. He created so many assists at chelsea. He's not the quickest, but neither is David Silva at city. These players have a very quick brain, they should be played in positions behind the striker where a simple flick can do major damage. If you stick them out wide, then you're not going to get the best of them.

Jred

To be honest I thought United buying him means Rooney was leaving but it does not look that way by the looks of it.

I can see where you are coming from and not sure how they all fit in a starting 11. Glad I am not the manager or maser tactician like all the boys on this site:)

No mid
I think his right position is number 10 same as Rooney and kagawa .
Mata is a top player but i'm not sure he us what we needed especially at 38mil.

Gcu
Lol

10 Feb 2014 14:08:27
Dan Burn has come out and said that he hasn't made this many headers in a game since he was playing in the conference I think that says it all really.

I've also seen a few quotes that chelsea drew 0-0 with west ham and city drew 0-0 with norwich. My argument to that is these are rare occasions it has been our downfall all season and its hard to watch. We have conceded 4 late goals this season dropping points each time against everton southampton fulham and cardiff that would be an extra 7 points we would have on the board putting us 2 behind liverpool. The only goal we have scored in the last 5mins of a league game came against man city when we were losing 4-0 already so that tells us we have completely lost our never say die attitude its totally disappeared in the matter of months.

I have stuck by Moyes and wanted to give him a chance but the simple fact is this is not a transitional period as we have been through these periods before yet still finished in 2nd or 3rd place. What I see is consistently struggling to beat any team bar the odd few occasions this season and something needs to be done. How you can keep lumping balls into the box when its blatantly obvious it is not working is beyond me. I think Moyes will be sacked at the end of the season even when Mike Phelan was in the studio yesterday you could see he knew exactly what he was talking about as he said when something is not working you clearly have to try something different and mix it up. We got some class players at the club and should be doing a lot better obviously we need a CM but still we should be doing better than we are. If we have no plan B against 20th position in the premier league then it has to come down to the coaches and the way they are being instructed to play

10 Feb 2014 11:03:27
I've defended Moyes time and time again this season. Saying he needs time and will come good. I have to admit if he got the boot now I wouldn't shed any tears and would be a tad relieved. Tactically he doesn't seem to have a clue, and it is difficult watching us play at the moment. Does anybody truly believe he is the man to take us forward and win lots of trophies? I'm wanting to believe that but if I'm totally honest I don't.
He does deserve 2 years and time to get his own players in and I do feel sorry for him because a lot of what he was left wasn't good enough and had over achieved but I think if it gets to next christmas and we still aren't seeing any signs of improvement then he will be gone.
I could cope with some bad seasons and no silverware if it felt like we were heading somewhere and building for the future but at the moment does our future look good?
Suppose time will tell.

Why not try mata behind rvp with kagawa and janusai as the wingers look at fulham wingers crossing for nobody you can't play mata on the wing what a waste play one twos round the box you spend the money on mata put rooney on the bench just make a decision if rooney dosnt like it tough luck your the manager show it and good things will happen just believe a bit inyourself

He has to try a new formation. 4-2-3-1.
We have the players who could make that work, playing mata on the wing is as silly as. well playing kagawa on the wing. Ditch the wingers it isn't working.
When he signed mata it looked like that is what he would do but no. We have no plan b at all, and plan a is pretty crap at the moment.

In my opinion Kagawa could be better than Mata, if given a decent chance.
I would play Kagawa behind RVP, get Rooney to play alongside Carrick and have Januzaj and Valencia on the wings

Good luck with playing those 1-2's around the box, when there's 11 opposition players camped narrowly in that area.

StevieK, it doesn't seem to bother teams like City and Liverpool, who often come up against two banks of 4 sitting deep. They just cut through them like a knife through butter, with fast, incisive, accurate passing - to feet.

Why drop Rooney? No one really plays with out and out wingers anymore that's old school now.

width from ful backs, both JM and WR can push out wid when needed, but we should play through te midfield now and not down the wings as our wingerscouldt cross he rd safely never mind the ball.

The we have got AJ, DW, SK and TC to come on plus the likesof Lingard/powell/keane/henriquez to come through.

Dont get me wrong ideally we would have two top CM players in the summer but in the mean timetry this. Wy pay £64 million quid on two players then play them out of position? I can see Mata being the new Kagawa so what was the point in signing him to play him out wide. Moyes is inept and clueless and now starting to feel the pressure as tat silly celebration showed after the 2nd goal. Average manager never won a thing as a player or a manager so how does he know to win things when he never has.
Ive said it from day1 budget manager appealed to glazernomics just ain't good enough, also said out of all comps by easter an he'd be sacked, Hopefully I dead wrong and he does prove himself but it doesn't look that way yet.

10 Feb 2014 12:48:35
Re steviek
Barca have been playing 1-2 against 11 (better players than Fulham's) for many a year without looking for pitiful excuses when it goes wrong. and bizarrely Fulham scored twice against us and should have had a third so hardly parked the proverbial bus all the game. too many make excuses for poor tactics from a poor manager who is responsible for improving the players and sadly who have all regressed under his stewardship (and not all the players are old)
Something is fundamentally wrong and ignoring it and thinking bringing new players in will resolve the problems is madness. it is possible that we made a mistake and appointed the wrong manager and coaches. just because its Manchester United does not mean we have not got this horribly wrong

Can we please stop saying things like 'the squad he left wasn't good enough' - that is utter BS. he took over a title winning squad, spent 65 million pounds and a wonder kid broke into the first team. We should be challenging for the title. We should expect no less.

StevieK

Silly excuse. We are certainly not the first team that plays against a team like that.

Well, we can always but Carroll and Crouch, then the excuse will vanish.

"Will Red" understand your view but want Manchester United to give DM a fair chance, as I would with any other manager. DM's limitation may be his tactics but SAF wasn't the best at this either and hence why he employed McClaren, Quiroz and Meleunsteen to do the bit on tactical play. Its hard to see where that is within DM's current staff. However the reports on DM are that he is a tough cookie but also a listener and so perhaps he will put this right within his team in the summer. He did ask Meleunsteen to stay on when he took over. So we have to wait and see.

I agree with the call for utd to play a 4-2-3-1 formation. Yesterday it wasn't a strict 4-4-2 as Mata kept appearing in the centre and LHS in the first half. Hwever to play 4-2-3-1 yo need to have the right players and although in Zanuzaj, Mata, Rooney and RVP we have the players for that part we simply don't have the players in CM or in the full back positions to be successfull in this or any other formation. If you play 4-2-3-1 then your full backs need to play like deep wingers and also defend. Evra goes up all the time but his final ball is poor and now he doesn't have the legs to get back. We need a fast, dynamic CM player who can protect the back four properly and move the ball forward. We don't have anyone like that full stop.

Yesterday there were 60 crosses put into the Fulham box! so we tried to get around the outside but often the delivery was poor or the final execution off target. When we tried to play through the middle of Fulham it was crouded out as there was no space, so were the tactice really that wrong? If we had a real CM powerhouse then that player could of drove at the Fulham 9 man back lineon the edge of their box and disrupted their shape. That may of lead to the holesappearing for Mata, Rooney and RVP to exploit.

Rooney and RVP are both still a little bit short of match fitness and it showed yesterday as their touch and sharpness wasn't as good as we normally expect. This added to the fact that as a team we defended poory mean't that e did not win the game.

We can debate, moan and argue about frmations and tactics but it doesn't really mean a lot when we simply do not have players or the right qualiy in certain positions.

Hoggy
I agree with a lot of what you said. 4-2-3-1 does need better cm and fullbacks than we currently have to work really well. But even with what we have now is it not worth a shot, try something different as what we are doing isn't working. Jones could play in the midfield 2 until the summer when he will replace vidic in defence.
I am not screaming for moyes to get the sack and am fully behind him at the games, but I am starting to question more and more things that I am seeing. I hope he gets the right players in and starts to turn the corner and brings us more success, I would love that to happen.
If I am totally honest though I am not convinced he will do that, and am not totally convinced he truly believes he can do that. I am normally an optimistic fan, I was brought up supporting Manchester United in the 80s when we never really challenged for the league and just won the odd cup. I don't want us to fall back to that. Its not that I don't want to give him a chance and like I said he does deserve 2 years, but I am just saying it as I see it at the moment, its up to him to convince me and other fans that he can make it at United. Up to now though he hasn't and with each bad result and poor performance it is getting harder and harder for him to do that.

Zanuzaj?

Is this some Zaha/Januzaj hybrid?

If so, get him on the pitch!

Ajs71

If you think barca and us are the same and we should be able to play their brand of football and fulham did not defend like I have ever seen before then you are definitely on another wavelength.

BTW for all you tactical geniuses if there was one criticism of Barca it is they have no width and struggle with teams who pack the middle of the pitch and it has probably cost them 2 CL trophies.

He must be very good.

Sam, we don't have players capable of playing this quick, incisive passing, unfortunately. I wish we had. Even if we did, they'd be pushed to have got through that yesterday. Abit more accuracy and variation in our crossing would have helped.

Ajs, Barcelona have Messi, Xavi and Iniesta to play that type of game. Are you seriously comparing our creative players to those three?

Silly comparison.

GCU

Yeah the Barca way of football is flawed sure what have they won?

What absolute pitiful excuses you and the likes of Stevie k are coming out with. Ye are obviously the tactical geniuses and Pep and the like are clueless.
You must think if we just kept crossing the ball a few more times surely it would have fallen to someone. don't forget Fulham were playing with possibly the tallest defender in the EPL and Stoke the week before are giants yet our tactics are keep crossing. unreal.

Devil don't be silly now. No-one is saying that we should just cross and cross and cross.

But when a team line up narrowly like Fulham, and you don't have Messi, Iniesta and Xavi pulling the strings, then using the width available is the percentage call.

A bit of variety too in the crossing would have helped - it doesn't matter if you're 8ft tall, you're going to find it difficult to cope with low, accurate drilled crosses.

Unfortunately, quick, accurate, incisive passing through the middle is not something our players, or most of them, are capable of doing at this moment.

And you need to be careful with that sarcasm on here. There's no room on this site for sarky little digs at fellow posters.

Yeah everybody, leave Moyes alone. It's all and good to play through the middle with players like Xavi, Iniesta and Messi. But you try stringing more than two passes together when all you have is Mata, Rooney, Kagawa and Januzaj. If we has one single player capable of threading a through-ball, do you not think Moyes would try it?

Stevie

The problem is we DO have the players to play quick incisive football.

Mata Rooney and Adnan would absolutely thrive on that kind of football.

{Ed004's Note - Kagawa, Hernandez (running onto through balls), RVP played that way at Arsenal and even Cleverley.}|

Devil, I still think those players would have struggled to pass through that team yesterday. That's just my opinion.

I too yearn for the future of 4231, and quick interchangeable, attacking players.

But just like any tactic, you have to adapt sometimes to the challenge put in front of you.

Ah, Danny, nice to see you back. Care in the Community day release, today?

Completely agree Ed. infact if anything the players we have Cleverly included would be much more suited to that kind of football.

Devil Dust

Don't talk nonsense and read what I posted before you sprout and dribble. Barca can play that way because they have probably the greatest 2 midfielders to grace a pitch with an outstanding cast around them and one of the greatest players the game has ever seen. In general incredible touch and control.

You are deluded if you suddenly think our lot can pass it around like Barca most of our boys need 2 or 3 touches and then look for a pass, but if it makes you feel better keep thinking that.

Mata Rooney Adnan and Rvp need 2-3 touches before looking for a pass?

They do not need to play exactly like Barca but they can certainly play decent one touch football if they are let.

You are deluded if you think they should just keep doing what they are at the moment.

Stevie I know why you mock me. While you yearn for a new quick and interchangeable future, I have faith in the teachings of Saint David, and my faith frightens you.

People think that wing play made by Manchester United managers and players. But they are wrong, so sayeth Saint David. And Saint David said unto the gathered media. "Why dost thou think that the players chooseth to run thine wing and crosseth into younder box? Dost thou not know that it is in the club's genes? That the players are compelled to cross by the Gods of the wing. Taketh the cherub Juan Matta. He playeth through the middle for years and, yet, as soon as he graced the hallowed Old Trafford pitch, he was drawn to the wing like the sweet song of a siren. He trieth to fight the call, but in vain. Manchester United players must crosseth and recycle it and crosseth again."

Now some people think that Saint David is wrong. That we sacrifice cross after to cross to the wing Gods but it is all in vain. But it is those critics who are wrong. The wing Gods are testing Saint David, and if he continues to deliver cross after cross after cross without reward and keeps his faith, they will reward him. Because he is the chosen one and will lead us, once again, into the promised land of Champions League football, in two years or maybe three.

The problems, as I see it, were threefold. I agree that our best option was to attack from wide, but the slow, laboured build up before we went wide plus the delay in getting crosses in was totally ineffective. This allowed Fulham to regroup and get organized every time.

Secondly, a bit of variety in the crosses was needed - would have been nice to see a few low hard balls whipped in with pace. Far better suited to our strikers.

Thirdly, we didn't even try break them down through the middle. Had we at least have tried this a few times it might have stopped them double-teaming on our wingers.

What was so frustrating was that we didn't even try do anything even remotely different. Simply more of the same. Story of our season, I'm afraid.

10 Feb 2014 18:34:34
GCU and StevieK
i never compared us to barca. I said barca have overcome 11 defenders week in week out and manage to find a way to win. my tactical genius is as limited as yours having never managed in the premiership but yes I would prefer we tried to play the barca way than the stoke way you and mr moyes continue to advocate. we are being compared to a conference side now under mr moyes, give me peps philosophy any day of the week. u both say we don't have the players to play the barca way well are u saying we have the players for our current style of play? If so why can we not beat Fulham, Stoke, West Brom etc etc etc etc. please enlighten us non geniuses with your tactical acumen u clearly posess

Devil Dust
how old are you may I ask.

Devil, have you seen Rooney's first touch? :)

Devil Dust

You are not worth it:)

We have mata, player of the year twice with chelsea. Kagawa, bundisliga player of the year twice. And Rooney. And januzaj. All these players are capable f quick intricate passing, but they are not being allowed to do so as we insist on playing with wingers.
As their cb said today, he was quite happy to be heading balls all day. Stupid tactic, never going to succeed with that!
No excuses.

Nomidfield, have you seen Rooney's first touch either?

Fair point, Resol. A bit of realism on here at last. Danny, keep it briefer please. I struggle with so many words, as you know.

Love how you know all the answers to running our team, just like your mate, Red Man, was able to fix the England cricket team in one post. Your knowledge knows no bounds. You're truly wasted on this site. A premiership managers role surely awaits.

Stevie, all you need to do is BELIEVE in Saint David like a good little Moyesette.

It's not belief, Danny, it's just giving someone a fair crack of the whip. If he doesn't cut it after he gets his own players and gets to play his own formations, then it'll be thanks for the effort, Dave, all the best.

He wasn't my first choice either, but I try not to let my own ego get in the way about that, when posting on here, unlike you and some of the other Chicken Licken brigade :)

Ajs71

If you are going to quote a nobody that matters none, then I guess you can.

To play Barca style football takes certain players and that is why it is very difficult for anyone to emulate and we do not have the players to even try it.

On another note, Why don't you then go ahead and quote Carrick or Mata as well because they also had interesting things to say about the match.

I personally am more interested in what they said given their status and accomplishments in the game than some nobody. Whilst you are at it why don't you quote, Steve Bruce, Pallister, Beckham, Cole who by any measure are legends of our club and top football players and what they have all come out and said.

There is nothing wrong with crossing the ball into the box, what the players decide in terms of where and what area of the pitch is going to cross is a function of the quality of runs by our forward and midfielders and quality of our crossing.

You're doing it wrong Stevie. It's only thugs like Jose that need to buy success, Saint David can succeed with our faith alone. BELIEVE little Moyesette, BELIEVE.

10 Feb 2014 20:23:50
GCU
its easy to get guys on the payroll singing from the same hymn sheet and Fulhams current manager said we were predictable. is his opinion valid considering he was at Old Trafford for 5 fairly successful years?
Mata, Kagawa, Rooney, Rvp and Januzaj not capable of playing football on the ground passing quickly to one another? If not why did Moyes buy Mata? To get on the end of another cross? The game has moved on, perhaps your blinkered view of how the game should be played is more suited to conference football along with Dave's. he is responsible for results and staff morale and is failing. he looks a beaten man on the sidelines and if you believe that does not transfer to his playing staff you are deluded and clearly have no idea about man management

Danny, I have this disturbing image of you, Red Man and Nomidfield, all sitting round screeching and giggling like little schoolgirls, every time you say the, 'believe' word, and virtually high fiveing each other at how funny and clever you all are. Thanks for that :)

Noname

With all due respect let's not talk about man management and what we have done and do for a living, I will not be nice if we go there and will get personal!! but first post your name.

The game has changes in terms of football lingo and what someone calls 442 is 4231 or even 4411.

The most devastating team in the PL league play a 442 formation with overlapping fullbacks, which is exactly what we play most of the time. They get down the line and cross the ball and score for fun. unfortunately they are the blue half of manchester.

I do agree moyes looks shattered and would you be given how bad things have gone.

Hush little Stevie don't say a thing
Moyesie's going to buy you a brand new team
And if that brand new team don't win
Moyesie's going to tell them to cross it in


BELIEVE, little Moyesette, BELIEVE

10 Feb 2014 21:50:17
GCU
agreed Moyes looks shattered but he is responsible for the teams performances and his salary warrants better results and if not at least better performances
I disagree that City play a rigid 4 4 2 crossing for fun. maybe when aguero is out they use it as a plan b but certainly not plan as we do the whole 90 minutes
as far as the rest of europe go:-
England Chelsea Arsenal Liverpool none use our rigid style
Spain Barca Real Madrid Atletico as above
Italy Juve Roma as above
France PSG Monaco as above
Germany Bayern Dortmund as above
Portugal Porto as above
Holland Ajax as above
all the teams play flexible free flowing attacking football and you advocate sticking to a style that was incapable of getting a result at home to Fulham. every team I have mentioned would have beaten Fulham. this is the reality of how quickly we have fallen from grace under the new regime

And my work here is done.

You have now become the very thing you attacked me for. You have become a sarky smartar$e. Welcome :)

Maybe now you'll embrace it and stop with all the pompous, self-important nonsense.

By the way, just wondering, with this deep concern you have for the future of the club, why haven't I seen you out protesting at OT? I thought you and the rest of the unholy trinity, would have been down waving your Moyes Out placards.

Maybe I missed it, because there's no way you'd just be all mouth and no trousers, limiting yourself and your prospective audience, to a little banter site. Surely not. Prawn sandwich, anyone?

And by the way, watch that Nomidfield one. He's the weakest link, and he REALLY hates sarcasm.

That post's a bit too long Steve.
Remember to keep it short and snappy, and BELIEVE.

Cue that image again of the three of you rolling around giggling hysterically. Except this time you're all in onesies having a slumber party at your boss's (Red Man) house, drinking pop and talking about who fancies who!

I'm never getting to sleep now.

{Ed007's Note - This thread is going nowhere so it is now closed. If it keeps going I will simply delete it and put a short-term ban on people.}

Sorry, Bond. Got a bit silly there. I enjoy going at it with Danny, but I appreciate it must be boring as help for everyone else.

Consider me duly chastised. Won't happen again.

10 Feb 2014 10:25:04
Hi eds I posted the other day that I didn't think 100 million was enough to overhaul this squad. You partially agreed and said that it would take 18 months however which is fair. My question is who do u see as manager in 18 months time?

{Ed002's Note - Moyes has a long-term contract. He inherited a squad that would take two years to rebuild.}

10 Feb 2014 10:19:38
Eureka!

I have a cunning plan - get Big Dunc oot of retirement, perfect fit.

Plan B - sack Moyse and bring in Big Sam, wealth of experience at EPL level and would attract world class players like Andy Carrol and Lee Cattermole. What could possibly go wrong?

That would be the reality though my friend. Honestly, some people on here think if we sacked Moyes now we will have the pick of any top manager in the World.

I can see a lot of top managers jumping ship right now.

aaalj5

10 Feb 2014 08:43:21
We are in a tough situation, but I think something needs to change now. Urgently. The players that we have out there should be getting results against anyone. I know we need reinforcements but these lads haven't become awful overnight. I just think they don't believe in the tactics they are being asked to play.
Yesterdays game I can not recall anyone running at the defence, I.E Hazard, Suarez. No 1-2's around the box, i.e Wilshere, Ozil.
My point is that we only have the well reported one tactic but why when we don't have the type of strikers that feed of crosses. We have bought Mata, but are choosing to bypass him to use the wings. The same reason Kagawa doesn't fit. These players are designed to play modern football but asked to play pre-historic football by a manager that has failed to move with the times.

I think the players all look unhappy. Rvp looks like he wants to be somewhere else. It worries me that fletcher mentioned that the dressing room is unhappy and arguments are developing. There is nothing wrong with a bit of arguing for the cause, but we don't need our players walking out on the field with negative and unhappy thoughts, they have to go out show that they want to work for each other and express themselves. Non of them look happy at the moment.

Not surprised they are not happy. we are having a howler of a year and everyone is in shock. Manager, players and fans alike.

I read an interesting piece last night regarding Brendan Rogers start at Liverpool. They struggled, but you could see where he was trying to go with it and now they are reaping the rewards.
Can anyone honestly say where you can see Moyes taking UTD? Its not as if he is attempting to play fast flowing football and not getting the breaks is it? If he was then I think we would all be a bit more patient and say "ok when he gets the 4-5 class players he needs we will get there" but if he continues this bizarre way of playing you could sign Messi and Falcao and it would make any difference.

Yep, I could get behind Moyes if he was least trying to change things.
He isn't. He keeps repeating the same failed tactics game after game and making the same inane comments before repeating tactics and comments for the next game.

What more does he have to do, to convince us that he isn't the man to bring success to OT? Granted, I'm one of the main posters who feel our team needs an overhaul. But a team incluuding RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj, DDG should not be 7th in the league, out of both domestic cups, regularly dropping points to terrible teams and devoid of any creative output.

10 Feb 2014 05:38:19
For a long time this period has been coming!
Everybody and his dog could see the shortcomings of our midfield, our play is so predictable a blind man could read it. We play sideways possession possession possession, until we can get a cross in. Who in our team ever dribbles past people through the middle at pace like Ronaldo used to? Januzai can go past people but not at great pace like Hazard. We are in real danger of doing a Leeds or Liverpoolif we don't make the top 4. We struggle to attract the top players when we're in the CL, but if we don't make it this year god knows how much the players we need will cost. Much as people want to stick with Moyes, I'm afraid I wouldn't. Who was it said "don't give me a skillful general, give me a lucky one" well Moyes is neither. To have got rid of so many of the back room staff was an personic decision. People say Fergie had a bad start, but at least he was a proven winner with Aberdeen before, Moyes has won nothing, and not won a game against any of the top teams with Everton, just how is he in charge of such a big club?
A penny pinching transfer policy over a long Period Is about to bite us on the backside, while every other team continues to buy quality players that we should get, we will have to settle for getting average players, and hoping upon hope we can turn them into good players with a manager brought in with that in mind.
West Ham refused to sack Avram Grant early enough and went down, if we refuse to replace Moyes now, we might not go down but we'll just be Greasing the slope. Get rid now, put Giggs in charge till the end of the season, then get Klopp, and give him the transfer kitty before Moyes Wastes it. Rant over
Tookers

Couldn't have put it better. You rightly said that we have brought in a lot of average players who might turn out well. Some have. But now, we have brought in an average manager and hoping he'll turn out well!
We can do that with players, but the manager has to be top quality, proven and most importantly, successful.

Be careful people will be calling you a plastic fan if you mention getting rid of moyes lol by the way agree totally with te post

Well the general view while Fergie was there was that the next manager after Fergie would not be the long term manager, but the next one after that might be the one.
So maybe its time to call it quits, say thanks very much for your efforts and identify the next manager to take us forward before the summer, give him a chance to get his players in.

Tookers what are you talking about mate?.If you are going to slag someone off, at least get your facts right.Moyes has won games against the top clubs.We have been beat at goodison have we not?.Everton have also won at least five times at the Etihad.

10 Feb 2014 03:31:54
as much as I do not think moyes is the rite man 4 us I do think after today u have 2 sahare the blame with the players! quality is wot u pay 4 not fitness and it should show

Why o why did the players keep crossing don't listen to moyes play the ball change your play iv seen bayern do it without pep telling them to change

And who put mata on right wing, young on left wing, then took off young and put januzaj then brought in another winger, Valencia and moved januzaj to the left? He is obsessed with wingers and crossing the ball from the wing, when some variation every now and then would have been a good idea.

10 Feb 2014 03:26:45
Gutted. Sick as a parrot etc etc

We were completely over-committed to attack right from the beginning. With not enough speed in midfield and defence, we were always going to be vulnerable to the counterattack. Everything we do right now is infused with a counterproductive anxiety.

These are players who are used to success. But the tactics they employed to get it are clearly no longer effective, and Moyes seems to have no idea how to change any aspect of it.

The rebuilding task looks massive.