Manchester United Banter Archive October 11 2013

 

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11 Oct 2013 15:09:44
Was watching RVN's goals for United. IMO there was/is never a player with such finishing and all round striker ability than RVN, ever to wear a united jersey.

How many of you agree with me? His goals are just class and scored to perfection.

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RVN is one of my favourite strikers ever

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My favourite player too. I can remember when I was 10 hearing the full time whistle blowing in the arsenal v Leeds match and united winning the title in 2003. One of my faourite seasons if I'm honest

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I think Dennis Viollet and Denis Law might have a little to say about that

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12 Oct 2013 12:51:43
The best of the lot was Tommy Taylor.

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I'd say Gary Birtles and Peter Davenport

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11 Oct 2013 14:19:34
With Fabio saying he is leaving
doesnt that look like Baines
is almost a cert to arrive in Jan
transfer window. I think a deal
is already done

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Deal definitely not done unless we pay the £18 million that Everton want and which I am sure you will agree is far too much for a player of Baines's age. Next game against Southampton look at both their full backs. The future is infront of you

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Coentrao is the player we will go for in the Winter.

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If we go after coentrao dose any body now if he has played for madrid in champs leauge and then we just use him in the leauge

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Unless madrid get a replacement in coentrao won't be going anywhere

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Bale could cover.

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Haha Bale cover? £85m for someone to play LB! I can't see us getting a LB in January as Evra is doing okay and it'd be hard to take someone with such a big personality in the changing room out of the team and no expect consequences. For example Adnan was saying the other day that the two players that have helped him the most this season are Giggs and Evra. I expect us to buy Coentrao in the summer then RM can find cover for Marcelo.

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11 Oct 2013 14:07:59
Great! so Moyes had the chance to sign both Oezil and Thiago and chose not to go with either as he wanted a midfield battler. If this information is correct and according to the Mail it is, then what is he thinking? Seriously?

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Well if the Mail says its true it must be. And did he have anything to do with Princess Di's death as well. I think you being a mail reader says a lot about you Sydney

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He's thinking what he has thought throughout his entire career, any player who isn't able to impose themselves physically or work hard defensively isn't allowed play in the centre of the park. This, as I'm sick and tired of repeating, is the Moyes philosophy. Moyes thinks that any player who isn't willing to run around and track back constantly is a luxury. Do you think he would allow Ozil play like he does for Germany or Arsenal? Not a chance. He would have been shunted out to the wing and forced to cover for Evra same as Kagawa has.

I mean come on, this is the guy whos idea of a creative number 10 is Tim Cahill and Fellaini. I think that we need to accept that so long as Moyes is unwilling to change his ideas, and his actions at United so far have demonstrated that he is really unwilling, then Moyes's teams will always shun creativity in favour of strength and graft. Moyes will put creative players on the wing, provided they work hard defensively, and he will continue to play Rooney as a number 10, but the centre of the park is for the hard the grafters.

To be honest though I'm not sure if Moyes would have been allowed pay £42m for Ozil anyway, but that's another matter.

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Sydney

I m forced to think that it depends on the nature of moyes.
Saf himself was an attacking minded player. So he will think accordingly and buy that in priority so we have luxury of strikers. Now moyes was defence minded player so he wil choose that type of player.
And from past 25 years we are seeing that kind of football.now moyes wants defence as priority that is good but not by killing our own style of football.

I read in your earlier post that u think attack is best form of defence.
I will say the same. Attack is best form of defence if u r strong side. Teams fear of you is first step of defence.

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Sydney
I thought better of you, surely no one can take the Mail seriously, the worst of all the press rags.

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Or maybe Moyes thought a tough central mid was more a priority than an attacking 1?
Im guessing he thought the equaliser would get us a few more over the line than he managed.

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The Mail. well it's definately true then.

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Definitely not the worst news rag as the S*n is complete skat, But the mail is hardly reliable.

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There's a few who cannot read as I clearly wrote "IF".

"IF" it turns out to be true that Thiago and Oezil were there for the taking and dithering Dave opted for Fellaini instead, then we can safely say his MU career will not last very long. Oezil and Thiago would have transformed us.

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I think Thiago turned us down for Bayern.

And I don't think the club was willing to pay £40m for Ozil when we had Rooney, Kagawa and Januzaj.

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An ex member of the utd training staff who has recently joined a championship team has advised that thiago would have signed along with Kevin strootman along with a centre back choice of Benita or garay. Deals were all set up, contracts agreed in principle. Moyes decided no. He wanted his own players and own staff. The ideal scenario was training staff kept on, identified new recruits brought in and moyes took 12 months to get to know the team and identify players needed/ he wanted.

Moyes wanted to be seen as his own man so decided to change the plan. Let's see how it works out come may.

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Why do you keep putting an 'e' in ozil's name sydney?

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Becaue that's how it spelled if you don't put the
'umlaut' - those two dots over the O on the German language. As in Ö. Without the dots you write 'oe'. '

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We were offered Ozil july time for 33m

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Huggy76

According to Strootman we never had any discussions with him so don't know where you are getting that from.

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G.A.G.U.S, we don't play Kagawa though.

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11 Oct 2013 12:56:29
There are three issues that are prohibiting us from playing a high pressing game, both issues will need to be adressed if we are to be able to implement such a style.

Now the first is an obvious one and one that can be easily adressed, with Rio and Vidic as our centre backs we lack pace in the heart of our defence. This is restricting them form being able to push up higher on the pitch thus forcing the play higher and allowing pressure to be exerted high up the pitch. We need younger and faster centre backs to be able to play such a system. Now we have Smalling Jones and Evans, but the truth is if we are to play such a system then there seems to be little place for Vidic who has never been overly quick and has obviously slowed down with age and after his injury.

This is obviously a worry as Vidic is still our best defender, but if we are to embrace a new style then we need to cut the ties to the old way, and seeing as Vidic is 32 anyway holding onto him will only hold back our younger defenders and delay our ability to move forward.

If we are to lose both Rio and Vidic then we need another top class centre back with pace and power to come in. My first choice would be Eliaquim Mangala, he would be pricey but is certainly a defender we can build our defence around for the next 5 to 8 years. If the money isn't there for him then maybe Bruno Martins Indi would be a very good alternative.

Next we look at midfield, we have Carrick, Fellaini, Anderson, Cleverley and Powell as our current options(I know Powell is on loan but he is still an option to be considered). Now out of that list we have Carrick who is 32, he has been a fantatsic servent to the club but he can't go on forever and will need to start being rested systematically to aviod burn out. Fellaini is a limited option and lacks the pace and mobilty to be anything but a deeplying defensive midfielder for us. Anderson is a crock and lacks the stamina to play a high pressing game even when fit. Cleverley is a decent squad player but that's about it. Powell is the only one who has the potential to play a role in a new style, but he is still young and untested at this level. So we are in need of at least two high energy quick creative midfielders who can play key passes in the final third but also do the running to cover defensively.

There are many different options for this role of differing ability, I think we need one to be from the top class bracket (Gundogan, Ander Herrera, Koke, Marchisio, Modric, Ramsey, Witsel, Kroos) and one from the slightly cheaper next bracket down (Clasie, Vilhena, Maher, Pjanic, Obiang, Barkley) of players who could be world class but aren't quite yet. Ideally we'll get two from the first bracket but due to cost this is unlikely.

Now the final problem is a much more sensitive issue but one of vital importance. Now we could have a defence the push higher up the pitch, and we could have a more mobile and quicker midfield but unless we can push the opposition defence further back then we will not have the space to work in.

We can only play higher up the pitch if there is space to play there, if the opposition are pressing us high then all we'll do by pressing them is to restict play to the middle of the pitch between the two high pressing defences.

So we need to force the opposition defence further back to create the space in the opponants half for us to play in. The only way to force a defence further back is by having a player or two who play on the shoulder of the opposition defenders, a player with pace who the defenders will be worried about running in behind them. Thus forcing them to drop further back to compact the space in behind them.

Now there are two ways of doing that, either you play with quick wingers who will take on their man and force teams further back or you play with a striker who'll sit on the shoulder of the defenders.

Now the problem is that we only have Zaha and possibly Nani who play on the wings like that, Young and Valencia seem to try and play too defensive and seem reluctant to run at defenders and try and get in behind them. Now one is young and untried at this level and the other is very inconsistant. This means we have a lack of quality on the wings to play in such a way atm. Plus we need an extra midfielder so to play with wingers means that we have a choice between dropping one of our strikers to give us cover in midfield or to play with two wingers and two strikers and leave the middle of the park over exposed.

So the other options seems to be to play with two strikers and no wingers but to have a player in a free role between the strikers and the midfield three. This is probably the best way to go as it doesn't mean we need to sign a couple of wingers. We already have Kagawa, Rooney and Januzaj who can excel in the free role. And we have some top quality strikers in Rooney and RvP as well as Hernandez.

But there is an issue with playing this way, and the issue is that I don't think Rooney and RvP work as a duo upfront. They both play in a similar way in that they like to drop off or out wide to find space then run in at their opponants. This is fine but as said we need someone to sit on the shoulder of the defenders in order to push them back. By playing RvP and Rooney who both drop deeper it allows the opposition defence to push up and restict the space we have to work in. Really Hernandez needs to be played as one of the strikers so he can force the opposition back with his pace creating space for the other striker and the player in the free role to play in.

So the only way for this to work with Rooney is to get him to play in the free role slightly further back with Hernandez playing furthest forward and RvP finding pockets of space between them. The problem with this is Rooney has just stated his issue with playing deeper and that he wants to play further forward.
Also playing like this will limit Januzaj's playing time. Maybe the best way to play is to have Hernandez playing furthest forward with either Kagawa or Januzaj deepest then play either Rooney or RvP inbetween.

Maybe its time to realise that we have two world class players who both play in the same way and in the same role, but there is only space for one of them.

I think in crowbaring both of them into the same line up we are screwing ourselves up from a tactical point of view, if we had two world class goalkeepers we wouldn't try and play them both in the same line up.

Maybe its time to realise that it has to be either RvP or Rooney and not both. England screwd up the so called "golden generation" by trying to play with both Gerrard and Lampard, and they left Scholes out completely or played him on the left wing. And look what it won them. Nothing.

We can keep trying to play both Rooney and RvP in the same team and thus fail in other areas of the pitch or we can just except the reality, it has to be one or the other.

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I'm sure I've read all that before

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11 Oct 2013 14:17:44
Maybe you have jred, and I expect you'll keep hearing it until the issues are resolved.

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Another fine broadsheet Shappy.

The main problem I see is we don't seem to be playing as a team. Hard to explain, you can certainly see when a team has it, more difficult to recognise when they do not.

This could be the biggest players in/out season in many years, which certainly will not help team spirit. With Hernandez, Fabio and Kagawa showing signs of being sick of lack of play (quite rightly in Hernandez and Kagawa's cases imo) Young, Valencia, Anderson just not good enough and Evra, Rio and Giggs (all great servants) past their sell by dates that could be up to 9 players leaving.

I'm sure we would all love to see a faster more fluid high pressing game from our team but until we address the team make up its going to be difficult.

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I think we need to cut our losses with Rooney and flog him in the Winter. But I don't agree with you Shappy that Hernandez is the answer to our on the shoulder striker, he is not very quick anymore. A couple of years ago yes, but he has lost a yard and he isn't really a focal point of attack in that way - whenever our wingers do fire ina decent ball for the poacher Hernandez always seems to be that key inch or two away. We are far better having attacking wingers and RVP up top with Kagawa in the hole.

I genuinely think come next summer 10-12 of our current squad will be gone.

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MrSween, I think wingers would be the best way forward but only if you have two world class all round midfielders in the middle otherwise you get over run in the middle. Barca have Xavi and Iniesta but they still need to have a Busquets in the side to add balance to their midfield.

Where as Bayern have Schweinsteiger and Martinez two of the best most rounded midfielders in the world. Only Vidal imo is a better all round midfielder than those two, and even he as Juve has two other midfielders play along side him.

So for me a three man midfield is a must meaning we would have to play a more traditional 433 if we are to have wingers, in this case I would worry about where our goals would come from, to play like this you need either all three of your front three getting close to 20 goals each or you need one special player who'll get over 40 goals by himself like Messi at Barca.

As for Hernandez being a yard off the pace, well you can't expect anyone to be match sharp with the small amount of minutes he is getting. I think if he was getting more minutes then his sharpness and speed will return.

The mark of any manager is looking at what you have and getting the most out of it. Now we need a new midfield and that has to take priority. After that getting two new world class wingers is going to be difficult, if we buy two new midfielders, a new left back maybe a new centre back and two new wingers we are looking at buying half a team. That isn't getting the best out of what you have, that is a revolution not evolution.

We have 2/3 top strikers and we have 2/3 top players who can play in behind. Januzaj is best used in a free role rather than restricting him as a winger. So we will want to look at building around that in the more long term.

So I think the best solution is to play a 4312 formation and press high and play through teams, we'd still have Nani and Zaha on the bench if we needed to change tact.

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Good point Shappy. Let's hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears because the signs look like Moyes is going to be a safety first kind of guy - but just like Hernandez it's only fair to judge them properly once they have had a fair crack.

I do think it will be one hell of a risk putting our eggs in the Mexicans basket though as he still doesn't know how to keep onside and the time it will take to re-gain that pace (if it ever comes), will mean we are very weak as he offers very little without that extra yard at his disposal. A bit like Rooney whenever he is recovering from an injury that means he can't run for a few weeks. We carry them for 4-5 games and we currently don't have the strength throughout the rest of the squad to do that.

The days of us out bidding for world beaters like Vidal are over, so we need to get in with young starlets and groom them for an agreed system, as opposed to letting them go or letting them rot.

Keep up the good work Shappy I enjoy reading your posts.

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I believe a small point is being missed in relation to Hernandez. It is not so much that he has lost a little bit of pace but very much about the way he plays. Many times I have posted that he is very good running on to things, his runs to create space and gain a yard are truly excellent. However his hold up play and bringing others into the game is lacking, his touch and control with his back to goal is not good enough and has not improved so far and I am not sure it will. RVPs hold up play on the other hand is at another level and a joy to watch. Hernandez therefore is risky as a starter but is very useful coming on when the game is stretched and we can break.
I posted a few days ago about Gary Neville and the pressing game being the way forward but also I posted about our defence being too deep, Vidic ageing and also how Fellaini didn't fit if that was the plan. Fellaini played best for Everton when he was up behind the striker and caused us all sorts of problems when the ball was lumped up to him.
Moyes has not outlined his vision of how we are going to play and it will be interesting when he does.

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12 Oct 2013 12:50:20
I know what you mean Redman, I agree his touch and hold up play isn't good enough. that's why he has lost his place to Welbeck as third choice striker. I think he has improved but he not at the level where he can be our number one striker.

Fortunately that's not what i'm suggesting. He would be the furthest forward but he wouldn't be expected to do much if any hold up play. He would just be expected to run in behind the opposition defence. He would then pull the defence 10 yards further back and take at least one defender with him. This would open up space and time for players like RvP Rooney Kagawa or Januzaj to have time and space on the ball on the edge of the penatly area. So without even touching the ball Hernandez has opened up a defence and created the potential for some real goal scoring chances.

And if no defender goes with him then all that needs to be done is to slip the ball into his path, then you have Hernandez in a one on one situation with the goalkeeper in the penalty box. He would score 2 out of every 3 times you did that.

So the opposition defence are left with the option of letting Hernandez go and him probably scoring or tracking him leaving space for RvP, Rooney, Kagawa or Januzaj to hurt you.

It really would be a no win situation for them. And none of which requires Hernandez to be good at linking play or holding the ball up.

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Shappy

You missed Verrati, he is better than most of the guys you have listed.

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13 Oct 2013 10:15:07
Shahram, Verratti is a brilliant player but imo if we are to try and get him from PSG then it will take a bid of silly proportions. 40m+ I would imagin, and as good as he is I just don't see that being viable.

Besides he has said that he wants to go back to Italy, I see him being Pirlos eventual replacement at Juve in a year or twos time.

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11 Oct 2013 12:00:33
Hi Utd fans its international time so in the interests of England's future what do you think.
Of a system where any club that starts 35 or more of the 38 games with 5:or more English players receiving 5 bonus points at the end of the season.
It wouldn't be compulsory and any club who thought fielding 7 or more overseas players was worth forfeiting the bonus points would be free to do so. I think it would encourage clubs to back English lads where ever possible.
I would like you thoughts but please remember its just an idea so go easy on me :-)

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I don't think it would really address the issues of the lack English players. I mean clubs would soon realise that those 5 points could be made up by fielding a talented group of foreigners over the course of the season. I personally think more drastic steps needs to be taken to ensure the future of English football, however I can actually see the spineless FA concocting something similar to appease fans in the short term, without actually addressing the real lack of quality of English footballers.

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I don't think such a system would be viable, surely just increasing the number of homegrown players a club has to have in their squad is a better solution. Maybe they could extend it to not just being in the squad but that maybe four of the match day 18 have to be home grown and at least 8 of your 25 man squad have to be home grown with the view of making it 10 in a squad and 6 in the match day 18 a couple of years down the line.

I wouldn't be against them taking a hard line and saying that 8 of your 18 man matchday squad have to be homegrown. That way at least one english man will have to play for every side every week.

But the real issue isn't the number of players to pick from but the quality of them.

Belgium for example isn't a large country and the majority of their top players play outside of their own national league. But they have take some huge measures to improve coaching at grass roots level right up to the top of their game and is has resulted in them having this great current generation of players such as Hazard, Witsel, Fellaini, Benteke, Dembele, Vertonghen, Vermarlen, Kompany, Mingolet and Lukaku. Then if you look at the even younger lads they have some great young prospects coming through such as Januzaj, Bakkali, and Tielemans.

We should be focusing on the training and coaching we give young players and the way we educate these young players.

This may mean we need to make some big changes to the way the game is played, even to the extent of removing some of the physicality within the english game to allow these young players the chance of playing competitive football at a younger age without the worry of injury.

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The FA could try and make a law about the number of English players fielded but probably the only way you could deal with non-compliance is by points deductions, rather than a reward system.

I question whether it would make any difference. The reality is that English players have never been that good. Barring 1966 at home, the international team has always failed miserably. Nor are English much sought after by top teams from other countries. So IMO that the number of foreign players is a red herring to avoid discussion of the true problem which lies somewhere between awful youth training and a ruling authority that has no vision. I don't believe it's down to innate inferiority, because just look what happened when the right investments were made in the Olympic squad.

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I think if we rewind 10 years then ask the same question would u be so up 4 it?

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English players (young and old) can play abroad just the same as foreign players can play in England.

I think the problem lies within coaching at kids level. Maybe we need more emphasis on technique rather than winning matches being the be all and end all that encourages focus on the big lads that do well whilst they're physically ahead of their peers but are soon exposed as average players when the others catch up growth wise.

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The big changes need to happen at grass roots level.

The youth players need to play more football at an early age, but critically have the time to spend with coaches etc.

There also needs to be a change in philosophy. I had no problem with Wilshire saying only players born in England should play for England or whatever it was he said. It was what followed that was bad. English players try hard, are determined and like to tackle. The mentality needs to shift from the if in doubt boot it out to needing to hold onto the ball and be comfortable with it at your feet. Until that happens the national side will never triumph over the more technically gifted nations

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Thank you all for responding, I don't know the answer but I do know the powers that be haven't found it after all these years and by being open to fans ideas and possible solutions wouldn't hurt. I think smaller clubs need to be encouraged to produce English players and bigger clubs need to have an inventive to take them over cheaper overseas players. A few years back Arsenal wanted Darren Eaddie from Norwich ( don't laugh:-) it was a long time ago, Norwich wanted 7 million so we bought Overmars for the same money that has been part of the problem, premium as a posed to bargain prices for going English

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The problem with English football is it has gone stagnant. Individuality and skill is trained out of youngsters as they are forced to play and train within a system. That is why nearly all of the creative and exciting players in the Premier League are from overseas.

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Gunner

A solution like that would only work if it was pan European otherwise our clubs would be at a disadvantage. Without going into a monologue the FA need to look at why it is easier to bring a 16 year old from abroad than it is to develop an English lad. The rule about where kids live and proximity to the club means talent cannot necessarily go to the top clubs. Whilst it was meant to even out the playing field it means the top clubs go abroad rather than get the best English talent. The FA also need to look at how much coaching badges cost because it limits the numbers of coaches. We need to look at what schools are doing and is talent encouraged there. I know from experience that coaching when young needs to be very good or real talent can go by the wayside.

{Ed002's Note - You need to read the regulations about bringing 16 years olds from abroad.}

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It would be controversial but a wage cap would sort it out. If clubs were allowed to allocate a maximum of £2mil to cover the wages of their 25 man squad per week. That would mean the league would not be disjointed and then the money saved can be spent on improving coaching, youth football and building pitches where kids can play 24/7 not when they have to book in advance and pay £5 each time.

That is the core problem of why we are being left behind, it's alright building all these new pitches, but how often can a gang of kids actually go and have a kick about on a Thursday after school?!

We would lose some quality players in the short term and obviously some TV money and sponsorship, but if we want it all then it will continue to ruin the game. These big investors aren't bothered about building an English legacy they just want as much fame and fortune as possible which is fair enough. We need to change our whole focus of the game and whilst there will still be a lot of money made by clubs, more can be invested in infrastructure and youth.

Superstars may leave or if a team has too many stars it will need to compensate with youth players being in the squad. Either way youth players will be given more of a chance to develop for first teams.

If we did this for 10 years the rest of Europe would follow suit so there would be no distinct advantage, but we will have a stable system which will encourage youth development and will perhaps make clubs more family orientated and attract less of the mercenaries.

I appreciate there are loads of things to consider and draw backs. But if we are serious about change starting with a wage cap at the top we can then build around it to ensure we have a fantastic game of football and work the problems it leaves out before implementing the cut.

{Ed002's Note - This will hasten the pan-European split and the creation of an elite league - which will be happening regardless.}

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12 Oct 2013 16:41:55
Ed02, Perfect then, why delay the inevitable if it means we can get the ball rolling quicker on feeding more cash to other areas of the game. The big clubs are leaving for their own new cash cow then better it happens sooner. I bet the big games get played in China & the Middle East as well - do you think we could reach a point where games are played at Old Trafford rarely as it's more lucrative to take the game out of Europe? {Ed002's Note - The Pan European split will be just that - at the discussions about it three or four years ago one club raised the of a higher-profile world club Championship at the end of the season. Support was not great as I recall.}

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11 Oct 2013 11:08:42
Anybody seen Clement Grenier play?

Reading his name a lot these days on football sites.

How is he as a player?

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11 Oct 2013 11:47:38
He is a typical modern attacking midfielder who plays best between the midfield and the forward line.

He has good short passing and vision, and he has a great long shot.

He plays in a similar way to Kagawa but is stronger physically than Kagawa but his vision and shooting isn't as good as Kagawas.

Mick being based in France will probably know a lot more about him than I do.

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I have seen him a few times. looks a good player but hard to tell how good given the league he plays in. There is a tendency to overrate midfielders given our current group. Based on fellaini's performance so far I think we have wasted 27.5 million which is quite a lot and could have had a lot of top players for that kind money.

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