Manchester United Banter Archive December 12 2017

 

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12 Dec 2017 22:33:01
Ed002. You habe kindly told us that SM-S is our no1 midfield target at an asking price well over the odds.
Are we trying to sign him in Jan or is he a summer window target?

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{Ed002's Note - I cannot answer questions about timings with any authority. If I said January it would lead to abuse if it didn’t happen.}

12 Dec 2017 23:13:57
Don't blame you Ed, people love to shoot the messenger. Thanks for the info anyway, seems like a top player and hopefully we do make a move for him sooner rather than later.

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13 Dec 2017 14:07:00
No sweat ed002 I understand. Cheers.

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12 Dec 2017 17:21:48
I'm going with a slightly controversial idea here. I don't think we need a winger. Which for a club with such a rich history of wide men seems a little off beat.

I've been considering wingers our lack of wingers for a long time. I have also troved through all the players we could sign for such a position, and fo you know what I found? There are very few wingers who could be considered world class. Robben and Ribery were the last two imo. Sure there are other players who play wide. But how many are creative and a goal threat consistently? I think all the players who play that sort of role are in the bracket below world class. Very good players but you can't rely on them consistently to get you out of a jam. Nearly all the best wide players now are full backs. It's easier to teach a winger who isn't world class how to defend than to teach them how to become world class. So they become full backs. Valencia and Young are cases in point.

I think to solve the lack of creation in our side we need to look for more creative midfielders. We can all see what happens when Pogba isn't around. I don't think a winger would have helped against City. They play too far forward and without a link man in midfield to link the midfield to the forward line having a winger would have just meant we would have had another player isolated and not really contributing. Martial has been pretty good this season, as has Rashford. Lingard came into some excellent form this month too. But without someone in midfield supplying them then their impact on the game is always going to be fairly limited.

We have some good creative forward players, Mata, Mkhitaryan, Martial, Rashford and Lingard. Andreas Pereira is out on loan and we have the young Angel Gomes coming through the academy.

But what we lack is someone to give them the fire power from midfield the moment Pogba is absent. We are also lacking some dynamism in midfield even when Pogba plays. Oh how we could do with Kante. Pretty sure we wouldn't lose any midfield battles then. Matic does a superb job of shielding the defence, but he hasn't the legs to do the running. Add to that Pogba isn't the most disciplined and teams can get hold of midfield. I think we could do with ideally a player who is creative and makes things happen in midfield but also a work horse who'll cover every blade of grass and make sure we don't lose the midfield battle. A Roy Keane or a Robson. I don't think there are many if any I can think of, maybe Verratti or maybe Saul Niguez. So we might have to look for a couple of players, one who can create in midfield and one who'll destroy.

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12 Dec 2017 17:37:28
Shappy we need a creative midfielder to open up defences but we do need a genuine winger who can play across the park as needs bve on the left or right wings. Having a fast winger who can cross well will open up the game and allow our forwards more space to cause havoc. Such a player also offers an outball when we are under severe pressure and lastly a top winger will always weigh in with a few goals.

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{Ed002's Note - Someone like Sergej Milinkovic-Savic?}

12 Dec 2017 18:03:36
Shappy, see my post below, I agree with you. We need to start to dominate in the middle. Despite what people say we do have creativity but we haven’t been able to boss games lately and that is driven by losing the midfield battle. How much would Bryan Robson be worth today? Is there anyone playing that his his mix of stamina, route force, and silky skill? I can’t think of anyone.

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12 Dec 2017 18:04:10
Hes be a fantastix signin ed if it happens .

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{Ed002's Note - Milinkovic-Savic is the first choice and what the club wants - but the asking price is well over the odds.}

12 Dec 2017 18:12:33
I have been saying it for weeks but does out midfield do?
It's all in the the opposition on our own last third.

Teams just play 3 passes and they are up against our back 4 .

If we need a creative cm what did we break the transfer record for pogba for?
What is his role?

If we start to control games again press and make the opposition play in there own half or not give them a chance to attack the back 4 every time they get the ball . We might look a bit better.

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12 Dec 2017 18:23:42
Agree jred. Inn or current formation we are effectively playing with 1 central midfielder. Pogs vacated the territory a lot due to the nature of his game leaving matic home alone.

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12 Dec 2017 18:45:34
Hendonred, If a world class winger was available then fine, but I can’t see any world class wingers around at the moment. So we would be left paying a world class fee for a player who at best occasionally displays world class form. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that how you could describe Nani? I think our budget would be better spent on a player who will make the difference 9/ 10 rather than 4/ 10.

Tony, I could only imagine. Hopefully Pogba becomes that player.

Jred, Pogba does bring the creative side, but I think our formation leaves us with a lack of numbers in midfield. Most teams play with three in the middle, with Pogba having licence to roam and us only playing two that often leaves Matic home alone.

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12 Dec 2017 18:50:58
Tbf jred said for over a month straight our midfield is the issue.

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12 Dec 2017 19:23:12
Wrd
I've been saying the same pal.

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12 Dec 2017 19:46:08
Guys imo its part of the issue. Service from wide areas and us threatening the by line are practically zero. Imo that's because we don't have good intelligent full backs. Notwithstanding young being in good form and valencia being solid. All the top teams offer a much bigger threat from wide areas much mire consistently than we do.

5 years since we have had a top pair of full backs 5 years since our last title.

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12 Dec 2017 20:06:57
Young has just had 2 man of match performances along side a mom for Shaw.

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12 Dec 2017 20:14:52
Yeah is what I mean jred tbf on you you’ve been saying it for a while.

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12 Dec 2017 20:56:23
Wrd
Sorry pal I read it wrong.

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12 Dec 2017 21:12:23
No worries mate.

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12 Dec 2017 21:45:32
Agree with this we won’t win anything if we cannot win the midfield battle. Games and win and lost here and us playing two in there has not worked all season. Not sure why Jose hasn’t stuck an extra man in there as he was doing it last year.

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13 Dec 2017 00:04:25
I understand people saying top fullbacks are needed and I agree. Similarly I agree and have been advocating the need for a midfielder who is both creative and can boss a match but that does not preclude the need for a top winger. In matches against the very best teams the fullbacks first job will be to defend and nullify opponents like eg Neymar. I would like to have the option of attacking quickly with a flying winger like we had with Giggs and Kanchelskis and with Ronaldo. It's no coincidence our greatest success came with wingers. Purely on the basis of probabilities if there are thousands of people playing professional football worldwide there have to be several top quality wingers or quasi wingers Shappy. Utd scouts are paid to find them.

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13 Dec 2017 09:29:58
Hendonred, that's the problem mate there isn't that many out there. Certainly not of a high enough level to justify their place in the team.

We spent most of the summer chasing Perisic. He is a good player, but is he really world class?

People have rose tinted glasses when looking back on past teams.

Beckham was probably the best crosser of the ball we have had, certainly in my life time. Do you know he never had more than a 30% success rate with crosses. That means he gave the ball away 70% of the time he crossed the ball.

The game has moved on, defenders are much better on the ball now than they used to be. 20 years ago giving the ball away to someone who was probably going to hoof into row Z thus giving you back possession was fine. But now if you give the ball away to a defender he is just as likely to start a counter attack against your team. You can't afford to have a player who gives the ball away 70-80% of the time. It just doesn't work in modern football. Why do you think no top team does it now?

You still need width, but it's not to cross a ball in but to drag a defender out. If you look at most wide players, be it a winger type player or a full back they more often than not either stay out wide and just provide an option thus pulling the defending full back out or they try to create an overlap then cut back in and more often than not look for a pull back rather than a cross. The best way to create an overlap is with a player playing between the lines rather than out wide. This works better with a No.10 type player playing in the traditional winger area. This player then moves in-between the lines creating space for the full back to overlap. The full back would then look to play the ball back to an on rushing player quite likely the No.10 who played him in behind.

This is how all top teams play, because it is the most successful way of playing.

As United fans we have romantic notions about wingers, but for all of Sir Alex's success his lack of UCL titles stand out. I think a big reason for that was the persistence of playing wingers long after most top European teams had dropped the idea. Our most successful spell in Europe came when we had Queiroz as assistant manager, the team played 433 with Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov and Ronaldo fighting it out for one of the top three positions. Only Ronaldo comes close to being a true winger, our width came from our full backs. Giggs who was still around more often than not played in the midfield three rather than out wide.

Playing without traditional wingers we made it to three UCL finals in four years.

That's why I feel this idea that a winger will make a huge difference to be false. We are creating enough chances and scoring enough chances when Pogba is on the pitch. We need back up for him and someone to make sure we don't lose the midfield battle against the best teams.

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13 Dec 2017 18:21:50
I said about two months ago we're lacking in midfield and we need another box to box midfielder and even another number 10. Someone spent two days shooting me down.

Now he says our midfield is lacking. Lol, no sh! t.

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13 Dec 2017 18:32:11
Jose wanted a LB, another midfielder or two, a right forward and a CB. He will be looking to replace Ibrahimovic. Problem is we are not PSG or City we cannot buy them all in two summers, it was always going to take at least three summers for him to rebuild. Jose wasn't happy with last summer, despite what he said in the media. He wanted the club to do more and next season we will be near the end of the Jose rebuild (Fingers crossed) . Next season we will have a much more balanced squad. More to the manager's liking. If he's still our manager Lol!

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12 Dec 2017 13:53:03
Lots of emotion after the game but let’s take a step back and consider if we have made progress.

Last year we struggled to put teams away, particularly teams that we would expect to beat at home. That hurt us badly and other than a brief spell we didn’t look like getting into the top 4. However, we won 2 Cups, including the Europa to give us the full set and also get us into this year’s Champions League. The football was better than under LVG but still not what we have come to expect. LVG finished 6th and won the FA Cup, Jose followed that by finishing 5th and winning the League and Europa Cups. So, progress but not as much as we wanted in the League.

And so to this year. Currently nobody has conceded fewer and only one team has scored more. We are a very solid second and won our Champions League group, we are also still in the League Cup with the FA Cup to come. Once again, progress it would seem.

On the positive side, we have scored a lot of goals and continually look a threat going forward. Our defence has been much more solid and when needed we have put the ‘lesser’ teams away (other than Huddersfield 🤢) . Matic has been a very very good signing, Rashford continues to get picked, as does Jesse who whilst hot and cold is starting to have a real impact. Pogba has kicked on and whilst he can be careless in possession in silly positions he is growing into a pivotal role for us.

From a less positive perspective, after a promising start Lukaku is looking a little lumpy and needs to get his confidence back quickly. I know people think Martial has improved and based on last year he has but he is still very inconsistent and often goes missing. Last year’s player of the year hasn’t had a run and when he has been picked hasn’t looked good and we’ve re-signed Ibra which still worries me in terms of how that will impact others. Ashley Young has been a revelation, Phil Jones has been very solid when fit (which is only occasionally) and DDG continues to show he is probably the world’s best.

Everyone talks about full backs and wingers but for me it is in midfield where we are losing games. We can’t seem to keep possession against better teams and we are lacking another quality CM to support PP. If we buy we’ll, and let’s be honest we haven’t always, then we should hope to continue to progress. The issue of course is that City are setting the place on fire with their start and hard as it is, we need to look at our own progress and not get hung up on their form.

As for Jose, I maintain he doesn’t seem very happy, he still wants to pick arguments all the time, and as for his reputation for improving players, it seems to be very directive and if you don’t respond then you are either dropped (Miki) or pointed to the door (Shaw) . That seems a somewhat old fashioned approach to me and as I have said before, I worry that Jose is now sat next to Arsene on the yesterday’s men couch.

There’s a long way to go and what will be will be, the stats say I should be delighted with our progress but for some reason I am not feeling great about things. Out of the top 6 I think the other 5 all play better football than us, when was the last time we could say that? Hey ho, I am sure Jose has a plan (please God, tell me he has a plan) .

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12 Dec 2017 20:10:14
I have no issue with people disagreeing with me, but it would be good if they commented so we could debate why they disagree.

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12 Dec 2017 21:23:03
I completely agree with you AJH.

Our midfield is the biggest issue for me, and quite frankly we just don't have the numbers when we play with a 2 man midfield with Lingard as a CAM who plays further forward.

The 2 midfielders can cope against the lesser sides but against teams like Liverpool, Chelsea and City we lose the midfield battle partly because we lack quality and partly because of tactics.

Our wingers are very wide and playing a 4-2-3-1 means the CAM is further forward. This leaves a lot of space for just two midfielders to cover.

Teams have spotted this and started to flood the middle of the pitch by wingers who tuck inside and a 3 man midfield and strikers dropping deep too (Firmino for Liverpool and Jesus for City)

Pogba, Herrera and Matic haven't had a chance to play together and imo playing the 3 together will benefit us in the big games instead of the extra attacking midfielder who almost plays as a supporting striker.

Fellaini leaving and Carrick's contract ending means we need 2 midfielders in the summer. We don't have the quality required yet in midfield.

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12 Dec 2017 21:43:56
Good post AJH. I have had a few days to calm down and have taken time to look at the bigger picture as I was very emotional on Sunday evening.

The result was not the most disappointing thing for me. The most disappointing thing was the manner of defeat. This was a derby against our biggest rivals for the title and geographically and we were scared and timid. No fight, no desire and no creativity. All I wanted to see was for us to have a go at them. They have deficiencies in the back and we let them play. All us fans want to see is passion for that badge on the chest. That is the most disappointing and heart breaking thing. We lay down and let them walk all over us. And I did not expect that and I’m afraid that lies with the manager.

I think we have to be objective and assess where we are this year in comparison to last year as well as acknowledging how poor we were under Moyes and lvg. We have not been right for nearly 4 years and the team Jose inherited was devoid of ideas, quality and confidence. I don’t think some on here (including myself) truly appreciate how bad we were for those 3 years before Jose joined. We finished 7th, 4th, 5th and then 6th again last season. The team was hugely unbalanced without any true wingers, a complete midfield or full backs. I know we are used to success but let’s be brutally honest and admit we have not been the same animal since Fergie left. We have been challenging for top 4 and have only managed that once since Fergie retired! So how people expect us to suddenly win the league within two years is crazy.

Now to what Jose has done well. I think he has restored the pride and fear factor to Old Trafford which was sadly lacking over the last few years. 40 games unbeaten is impressive and unfortunately we were beaten by a better side in city. He has bought very well with matic, pogba, Bailly and has definitely made us more solid at the back, whilst also making us more ruthless in attack. I believe we are one more summer transfer window away from Jose having the team he wants and after that there is no excuses for Jose.

But the big problem area for me has been midfield this season. I agree with others who have been saying for weeks we keep getting dominated in midfield. De Bruyne and silva were able to pick the ball up and have a free run at our defence. It is completely non existent in the big games this season and we seem to go straight from defence to attack without any midfield. It’s just not good enough for a club of or size and stature. We are so reliant on pogba and when he does not play we are half the teams who cannot play a counter attacking game effectively. It is clear we are targeting a midfielder to partner matic and pogba. Milinkovic Savic seems to be the first choice and I think he would be a fantastic signing and just what we need. We won’t win anything if we do not control the game in the midfield. I remember back in the day we would have Scholes calm us down and get hold of all ball and control the game from midfield. We don’t have that at the moment and it’s killing us. I think jose’s Counter attacking style can be entertaining if executed to properly. I would play pogba further forward where his skills are better utilised and he does not have to worry about defensive duties.

I actually think we are ok for the left wing position but I think we need somebody on the right. Most importantly, a new left and right back are needed to provide the width. All the top teams have overlapping full backs able to put a decent cross in and we will see a big improvement in Lukaku if we can start doing this. I personally hope shaw can kick on but if we can get Rose I will be very pleased with that. I agree at the moment our style is probably the worst out of the top 6 but we are second and I think we just have to keep doing our thing and win games of football and hope that city slip up.

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12 Dec 2017 11:05:36
Maybe we are now using the word pragmatic instead of defensive. I don't mind counter attacking and the arsenal game was thrilling, but by the end we had been under siege for large parts of the game and it took the best GK in the world to have one of his best ever games . When we defended in numbers last year people thought a new CB and a good defensive midfielder will mean we don't need attackers back so much . We get lindlehof and the excellent matic but has it really given more freedom to others in big games or do we still have the everyone back approach. When infront of our eyes we can see the amount of possession the opponent's are having is becoming an issue we need to be a bit braver or get a player who can stem the tide, offer some control and help give the opponent's problems getting the ball . Kroos comes to my mind lots of passes rarely give the ball away . I know the ed says savic and soler are the preferred options, I haven't seen to much of them does anyone know the style of players these are .

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Premier League Match Preview Tuesday 12th December 2017

12 Dec 2017 06:56:17
{Ed's Note - we have posted a new article entitled, Premier League Match Preview Tuesday 12th December 2017

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12 Dec 2017 11:28:25
Picture of Jose in the office Monday morning.

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12 Dec 2017 16:12:14
Wouldn't you think someone would give him some milk.

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12 Dec 2017 05:53:29
Rashford would have done better as a number 9 in that game lukaku almost did same thing against arsenal if not for De gea heroics he has so much work to do on himself I am one of his fans but he didn't help himself on Sunday first goal he allowed otamendi bully him second goal that was just heart breaking city had so much position but their goals were opportunistic and c'mon that miss by lukaku I have studied him and he hardly plays with is brain that's wat makes morata a little better than him he gave that ball straight to the keeper we won again arsenal because we were clinical I still wanna believe in lukaku but he has so much ground to make.

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12 Dec 2017 08:31:32
The meltdown is unreal on here when we lose.

This is why other teams give us a lot of stick.

The keeper made 2 outstanding saves for lukaku shots which Dave did the week b4 for us and was lauded for.

As for Rashford doing better than lukaku up top.

We created absolute nothing for lukaku to feed on. what do u expect him to do run on to 50 yard passes against 4 defenders and somehow perform miricals.

Maybe if we pushed higher and tried to attack in numbers we may have been able to give him the chances.

City's goals were stuffy but that happens unfortunately for lukaku he was that player that it happened to.

It's clear to see without pogba we lack any kind of balls in midfield. But we have progressed from last season and there is another 3 competitions we can win.

The title may be city's to loose but a mirical happened for the foxes.

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12 Dec 2017 02:40:40
Well after a bit of reflection.

It was a game we needed to win but a draw wouldn't have been the end of the world. I think most of us would have been satisfied with 1-1. We lost to a goal that has caused me to break a few PlayStation controllers over the years while playing FIFA.

We just have to be pragmatic. Man City, at the moment are probably the best club side in Europe. They are playing ridiculously good football. Peps got the Barcelona 09 team regens. At that time we had Fergie and Ronaldo and co and we still couldn't get near them then. 5 years before that it was the invincibles and 5 before that was the 99 team. Every now and then a team clicks and you just have to hold up your hand and say they are the best and we couldn't get near their level. Just like after the Rome and Wembley finals.

Im not sure what more Jose could have done with the players at his disposal and the form of some players. If we went gung ho we could have been embarrassed again at Old Trafford. Not because we are so poor but city could do that to anyone on their day. 11 points should be too much but it's still December. We need to plug away and see if we can make the match at the Etihad mean something.

We have a decent draw in Europe and it's all about momentum. Anyone can win a cup competition. Chin up lads. Still plenty to play for.

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12 Dec 2017 05:42:22
James they did not open us up like they did to Liverpool or play us off park like they did to Chelsea, they dominated possession and created an odd chance beyond that nothing much, mourinho shot himself in the foot by his team selection and tactics, in 2nd half we were chasing the game all he did was bring on zlatan to play 4 forwards because starting 3 were not enough while everyone could see we were getting dominated in midfield and our long ball stuff was just embarrassing thanks to the pass mastery of likes of rojo and the holdup skills of the great 75mn forward mourinho brought, they did not beat us because they were better they beat us because mourinho messed up.

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12 Dec 2017 08:08:21
James, I think Mou could have done much much better with the players he had at his disposal. Maybe, just maybe, City had a couple of players who are better when you head to head, but I don't think they have a squad which light years ahead of ours.

The point that CSM makes is correct, City did not scare us through open play, they didn't create a single one on one chance that opened up our defence, instead, two really shabby attempts at clearing a ball cost us.

We could have done much better. Our team was not just in our own half, we were in our final 3rd, not what you expect when you play at OT. Maybe, Mou needs to let go of the fact that he doesn't have the 'players he can trust' because trust me, a lot of managers can and will play better with the squad that United have.

I think he needs to take a hard look at himself and his tactics and understand that his 'pragmatic approach' is kind of costing us valuable points and maybe, in this case, the title.

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{Ed025's Note - i could not agree more raghay..

12 Dec 2017 09:49:23
I agree. Jose takes the blame for me this week as he got his tactics wrong and City played us like a banjo.

Too deep, too negative and not sure why we didn’t stick with the 3 at the back that’s been working?

His cautious and pragmatic approach is not a natural fit for us. It is when we win, when we lose it’s meltdown. Jose gets paid the big bucks to make these calls, so on this occasion he merits criticism as he got it wrong. As above though, this nonsense on not being able to trust players. Maybe give them some confidence and they might surprise us. On paper, our teams were pretty well matched bar Pogba’s absence.

We are making progress and with a few tweaks at full back and midfield I think we are not far off.

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12 Dec 2017 10:44:44
Good post, Raghav, mate.

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