Manchester United Banter Archive February 12 2014

12 Feb 2014 23:34:49
I know we don't want anyone else to win the league but if you had too see one team win this season who would you it so hard

Don't care as long as it's not the mob down the road or the scousers.

Chelsea or arsenal. Purely because it would be good to see mourinho walk into the league and in his first attempt just sit above city, and arsenal because of the football they play and the fact that no one considered them real contenders. Plus it always used to be better when it was between united and arsenal, wouldn't mind seeing an old rival make a statement

We'll for me I can only see it between city and Chelsea even before arsenal games against us and liverpool I knew arsenal wouldn't as they always bottle it they will never win anything under wenger until he retires and as good as Liverpool have been I can't see them winning it so as hard it to say I'll rather Chelsea win it and city

12 Feb 2014 22:21:15
Having watched the game and read some of the posts I thought I'd have my say. For me RVP is very much off the boil. His chance in the second minute would have been buried last season, had he lifted his head he would have the keeper had sold himself early! He contributed little in open play and, for me, I'd have left Mata on behind Rooney. To say Mata looked lost, I didn't see that, in fact he played RVP a few times and he's always looking for the ball. Vidic, again in my opinion, repeatedly lost Giroud throughout the match, in open play and from set plays. I thought Smalling played well and handled Giroud much better, when called upon. The Cleverly and Carrick bashing surprises me at times. They both outplayed and in fact dispossessed Wilshire countless times. Cleverly is no Xavier but for me, he's busy, he puts a shift in and as is the united way, he gets constantly slaughtered no matter how he plays. Moyes wasn't my first choice but the fact is that several players have let him down over and over again this season. These players won the league in April last year and it's time they stood up to be counted or collect their p45 in June and thanks for your service. Sir Alex refused to address midfield and left back for a long time, Moyes has tried to immediately and I believe he will in the summer. Then he can be judged but in my opinion there are several in that squad who have forgotten the privileged position they hold and are happily collecting their pay for some very mediocre performances! Rant over.

Irishred1

12 Feb 2014 21:52:53
Better defensive performance tonight, but virtually nothing going forward. Thought Smalling was good and also Carrick. Valencia was poor and refuses to take anybody on. Then there is Cleverly, he brings nothing to the team at all, I don't like to single players out but he is an exception. Where Scholes had a picture of the game before he received the ball, Cleverly has to wait for his pictures to be developed by Spielmans. In the 92nd minute after Rooney broke forward it eventually comes to Cleverly facing Arsenals goal and with 4 or 5 players ahead of him and he instinctively turns and passes it sideways and back. God help my blood pressure watching him, please don't start him again.

Puts in a lot of effort, his passing makes me believe he'd make a cracking rugby player

I think that's a bit unfair to Clevs. There were only a couple of occasions (2 bad ones in the last 15 mins certainly) but in general I thought he looked a lot better than usual.

It is getting incredibly boring people scapegoating him every single match. Pathetic from a 'fan' of the club really.

FlappingtonUnited

I am not scapegoating him, there are plenty of players under performing at the moment. I just don't thing he reads the game and becomes a passenger. We are as 'fans' allowed an opinion and after 40 years supporting, this is mine.

I think Cleverley was more there to run around the pitch, close people down and get in their faces (Which he did well) rather than to add too much of an attacking impetus tonight given the front line we put out and what they're capable of

Overall he was good in spells i.e. first 10 and majority of the second half but needs to improve if he wants to stake a claim for more regular first team football here. Would like to see him kept around as a squad player because I hate seeing Englishmen walk away from the club. He's also only 24 and can still improve, a number of players have improved considerably later in their career and who knows, he could be one?

12 Feb 2014 21:45:53
That performance was disgraceful. No attacking impetus. I counted at least 8 times the ball was hoofed up field towards nobody and in the last minute of the game we go from having the ball in Arsenals final third to passing it around the back. Our style of football is atrocious. i'd love to think there's light at the end of the tunnel but I just don't think there is with this current regime.

Apart from Januzaj, can anyone give me any positives from this season?

Season Ticket prices frozen for next year? ;)

We set up compact and tried to hit them on the counter with was spot on tactically and would have won the game had RVP bee sharper.

What you don't do is go go and open yourself up like a french hooker in the last 10 minutes to undo all the hard work by conceding a let goal which is what has killed us this year.

Our confidence is shot to sh. t at the moment and matches like yesterday will do everyone a lot of good including the fans, except obviously yourself.

I posted yesterday that our biggest flaw this year has been having too many offensive players on the pitch and not enough defense, which is suppose to be the way David Moyes plays.

Yesterday shows we do not need to play that way and can stay compact and if we take our chances we will beat met teams. We played a team that has led the league most of the year and one point from the top, so it was by any measure a very tough away fixture and many were fearing the worst. I BET THE DRAW:)

12 Feb 2014 21:38:23
Vidic was a rock tonight. Good luck replacing him Mr Moyes.

On another note, no matter who Moyes buys, I simply cannot see his tactics working, and being right for the club.

Vidic's headers were impressive. I have noticed he kicks a lot of balls out for throw-ins now. Old age I guess, slowing down. Jones is another beast with his headers. He will replace Vidic if he can stay fit.

Was he really though? For effort yes but he was beaten to pretty much every header by Giroud, not to mention losing him at corners, and got extremely lucky that he didn't put one past us at the very least

I actually thought Rio and Smalling were better at the back than Vidic although we seem to consistently hold a very deep line which is worrying

Please enlighten me on what was wrong with Moyes's tactics tonight.?

Vidic was poor and has been for most of the season. He made a good clearance towards the end but for me he constantly lost his man again. Add that to his performance on Saturday and against Chelsea and he's been very disappointing. As for tactics, if RVP had been ruthless the game would have been comfortable. It's an easy thing to throw at Moyes every week, but I could see him screaming at them to get forward throughout the game!

Bennett

Nothing wrong with moyes tactics and the he said happy with how we defended but soul have liked to have played better going forward.

We had the best chances of the game and should have taken one. I said earlier today RVP is still not sharp and it showed tonight.

You would have thought with the form of players like RVP and Mata against arsenal in particular we would have looked a bit more creative going forward but it wasn't to be

I liked the subs Moyes used tonight tbh, Mata had a poor game so brings on a flair player in Januzaj and when he realised the Ox was going to tear Evra a new one, he used Young to play slightly more defensively (Although he didn't play well when he did come on, the thought was right)

12 Feb 2014 21:06:10
Now we are defending to deep. If we continue with this approach we going to lose. Our defence is not good at all.

12 Feb 2014 20:44:34
Why do people keep saying we're playing 4231?

I don't think we've ever played that. it's more like a 442 with Rooney dropping back to a 4411.

JK92

That is because I honestly can't tell our shape because rooney moves around all over the place.

12 Feb 2014 20:37:19
Every time cleverly gets the ball he looks clueless as to what to do with it. Carrick is having to play as two central mid fielders as he is lost. get Januzaj on for cleverly and stick mata central. simples.

Here we go again.

Carrick is just as bad, all he does is stand there pointing his finger and then sh1ts himself when the opponents get close to him.

At least Cleverley moves about and puts in a tackle.

I think the reality is he is the only young pair of legs who can run around in the middle of the pitched just break up play.

I do realize where you are coming from as he does hates the responsibility of having to make a tough pass and just lays it off to anyone around him.

Let's hope we are alerts starting the second half and take our chances.

Actually Cleverley has done better than Carrick up until now. All Carrick has done is over hit the ball by some distance. Cleverley has been all over the pitch making interceptions. Neither have been great, but Carrick is certainly not doing two jobs, he's barely doing his own job.

It's funny when you consider Carrick was treated like Cleverley is now for many years. Then Gibson was the scapegoat, now it's Cleverley. Carrick used to get so much stick, slammed for passing it backward or sideways. Carrick hasn't changes, it's just our midfield has got weaker and weaker.

They are not doing nothing more than they can right now, but has been enough to keep the pressure on.

We're playing better than the laat 2 games, let's hope for a win.

Sydney

I was not one the people who never slagged Carrick and always rated him. Just so much better than cleverly mate.

Cleverly at his age should be able to provide a lot more and what is very frustrating is some of the basic stuff a decent midfielder should do he just does not and always takes the easy out.

Well under any other circumstances you would say that is very good result given the opposition and their position in the league.

Unfortunately it does not help our cause in terms of closing the gap and it is now even bigger but never the less a rest much needed to stop the rut.

Interesting to see liverpool now only 4 points of the top and spurs are also suddenly in it.

I got to agree with you syd. I think Cleverley was playing better than he has in the past games. he even passed the ball forward a couple of times

12 Feb 2014 19:22:54
Ed002

Peter Reid on Al Jazeera is saying as part of pre-game show that he knows for a fact that United thought they had Bale and Fabregas in the summer and were left scrambling when the deals did not go through.

Is there any truth to this, I never thought we were in for Bale.

{Ed002's Note - Idle speculation.}

12 Feb 2014 19:45:49
I think it's criminal what moyes has done to kagawa. such a skilled player and hasn't gotten a sniff since early january. Had the opportunity to give him a run of games when RVP and Rooney were out, but instead opted for playing welbeck and young in the hole. absolutely disgraceful.

Let's see what brilliance DM has in store for us tonight.

What 'Moyes' has done to Kagawa?! Kagawa didn't exactly play every game for us under SAF. There must be a reason and its one that we're obviously not seeing

This is just a post set to have another go at Moyes. Boring.

12 Feb 2014 19:29:27
Right now Everton are lying in 6th, exactly where they finished last season, and one position better than in 2011/12. Assuming they remain in 6th will we consider Martinez to have shown himself superior to Moyes? Who do you think had the more difficult task? Martinez, who inherited an established top half team with no expectations, or Moyes who has taken on a team we all know is in serious need of rebuilding, where the expectations are extreme?

I am no apologist for Moyes, but there really is no comparison between the jobs, is there? Relative to Moyes's job Martinez's is a virtual sinecure. To my mind our new manager has yet to exhibit the credentials to indicate he was the right choice, but one way or another I feel sure he will be given plenty money - if he can work out how to spend it - and until Xmas next year to show he's on the right track.

Here we go again!

This is to Everton fans or to United fans?

Game day dude, let's concentrate on us just until the game ends!

Martinez in my opinion has done nothing special, if Moyes had Lukaku last year I imagine them playing just as well if not better than they are currently

12 Feb 2014 19:20:37
4-4-2 tonight spells trouble, we spent a fortune on Mata and he's on the wing. To be honest, I would rather have Adnan on the wing. How much better does Mata make us if he's played out of position at the expense of our most exciting player? This is the 4th game with Mata and Adnan has started none. We have good individual players but there is no balance . With that being said, come on United.

Flint

Just curious why do you say it is 442 and not 4231 with Valenicia Rooney mata playing behind RVP.

If you play mata in the hole where do you play rooney?

This game and Liverpool still are the big game for me because of the history and I love the buzz of it :)

I think Valencia will stay on the right but I think we will play a lot narrower with Mata and Rooney swapping on the left. Both taking it in turns coming deep to link with Carrick and Cleverley. The midfield will become more packed as a result allowing Mata to dictate the play. If this works great. If not I expect to see a substitution on 60 minutes with Cleverley coming off and being replaced by Januzaj.
Feeling surprisingly confident tonight:-)

I fully understand why Moyes has opted for Cleverley. Fletcher and Carrick were far too slow against Fulham. It's a good indication of what type of midfielder we will try to buy in the summer.

I am looking forward to seeing Adnan, RvP, Rooney & Mata all playing together. Perhaps we will see it later in the game. It's clear what Moyes wants to do, but we do not have the personnel.

Surely if it doesn't work tonight, then he must change.

Because Valencia always plays out and out winger cgu and yes started mata on the left wing. That's 442, sorry!

Looked like 4 4 1 1 to me.

12 Feb 2014 18:28:53
Dear ed002 this is a stupid question, but something I heard, do you think we will try again for Fabregas this summer?

{Ed002's Note - No.}

12 Feb 2014 18:23:40
I think there is a difference between coming on here and venting frustrations at our recent performances and booing and shouting Moyes out at the games. Up to now only a few have done that and rightly so.
We all want things to turn around, and they will whether its next game, next season or 2 seasons. We will be back.
I totally understand peoples frustrations but its true, he is going nowhere for now, let's give him at least till next christmas because he deserves that and will definitely get that so let's all remember how lucky we have been in the last 20 years, remember what SAF told us about getting behind the new manager (SAF earned the right to be listened to) and get behind him and the team 100% and see where that takes us. The doubters may all turn out to be right, but there is also the possibility they could be wrong. One thing is for sure SAF knows better than any of us.
Starting with Arsenal tonight, c'mon lads get those crosses in :-)

12 Feb 2014 15:18:08
Saw Zaha play yesterday and he looked ok not very good but not very bad either.


At this moment he looks like he could turn out to be the next Walcott(pace and potential turned into a decent PL player) or he could turn into the next Bentley(pace and potential completely wasted).

But quite frankly I can't see him being the next Ronaldo, however i'll take the next Walcott. Still better than Young/Valencia.

MB, Zaha has immense potential, far more potential than Walcott had. Walcott always had speed, but lacked skill. Zaha has both. It's still unknown whether or not Zaha can fulfill his potential, but if he delivers even 80% of what he is capable of then he will already be far better than Walcott. Zaha's main issues are his finishing and keeping possession. His end product needs to improve otherwise we will end up with another Nani.

12 Feb 2014 17:23:13
Just read Ed woodwards comments.This should of started to happen 3 years ago.Lets hope it's just not a lot of hot air.A massive overhaul is needed & has been for at least 2 years.Only time will tell

12 Feb 2014 14:33:39
Didn't quite realise how good RVP has been, just read an article on him and what he has done since he has been a red. It's 50 goals in 62 matches for him since joining last season - a remarkable stat up there with the greats.

The guy oozes class.

Top, top player. I only wish we'd had him around for a few more years.

Our best Striker and don't want to upset anyone who is a fan of wayne. I don't believe he is still match fit and once he gets there his movement is brilliant and very clever. Our delivery into him is poor or he would score a lot more.

We should drop Rooney and play mata or kags in behind

Rooney today not great. Has had quite a few poor passes especially in the last 3rd where you want a little that little bit of quality.

Mata is so much better the anyone we have technically.

12 Feb 2014 13:51:56
I said from the start that I think Moyes needs to be given at least two seasons no matter what, but I'm starting to believe he needs at least three.

Once thing that is puzzling me though is his tactics. We have a front four (RVP, Mata, Januzaj and Rooney) which is just as good as Chelsea's (Eto, Hazard, Will:iam and Oscar) and this front four is by far the best thing about our squad.

None of the three behind Eto are natural wingers and Mourinho gives them free licence to roam and interchange. It works really well for Chelsea in an attacking sense and it means they always have plenty bodies in midfield.

Surely Moyes can see this, so why aren't we doing it? At the moment we are poor in midfield and defense so we need to play to our strengths which is our attack.

I think we need to adopt the Kevin Keegan approach of "you score 4 but we'll score 5". Even if we lose, at least we'll have had a go and it will be entertaining (remember that? Entertainment? The whole point of football in the first place as far as I'm concerned)

In my eyes, he will get 2 seasons. We will see a big overhaul this summer with probably 7+ leaving and 4/5 first team players coming in. If, by the end of next season, we see no improvement, I can't see him being given a 3rd season. That said, I believe by this time next year we will be in a much better position, and so he will be here longer term. I just hope we don't get a Europa place, unless we use it for squad players and u21's.

While rvp, rooney, mata, januzaj are smashing players andy b, it would not work the same as chelsea, because of one important thing-speed, you need it in modern football more than ever before, none of utds players can cover the ground of chelseas attacking 3, I think rvp and maybe rooney will be off in the summer and moyes will replace them with younger faster players.

Difference is Chelsea have really strong fullback who are good at defending, as do city, we have to have players in front of our fullbacks to provide cover for them

At last people are dealing with the realities of the situation at our club, and planning accordingly.

Moyes is going nowhere, barring relegation :)

So let's start talking about the future rather than ranting over and over again about something we can't change.

Andrew, we'd all love the attacking football back, and I think if Moyes had more credit in the bank, then he could maybe get away with trying that.

However, bearing in mind our position, and with him knowing how some fans are feeling, I worry he'll just continue to play the perecentages until the end of the season, if only to get some results on the board.

Anderson, Nani, Kagawa & Hernandez have made little or no difference this season so will not be missed next season when sold. There is a minimum of £40m there, with other fringe players and youth sold the amount will be closer to £50m IMO. All of that will offset a biggish spend this summer. I still think a RB, CB, LB will be signed in the summer along with one wide player and a central midfielder. The following summer players like Young, Valencia & Rafael? could be sold to offset another biggish spend. The player sales will also make up for the lack of Champions League money for a season.

Sydney

I agree with the ones you think that will be leaving. How long has Nani been out and how many games has he actually played this season?

I keep hearing about us being in for a striker and we might see one of rooney or RVP going and end up buying a new striker.

Woodwards comments are quite interesting and he said 4 or 5 players coming in at max as it can destabilizing to bring in more, "unless specific opportunities present themselves"

I think we will buy two midfielders, a left back, CB and striker.

We might see Adnan as first choice left wing with young as back up and see mata play on the right with valencia as back up. We will also see Powel, Zaha, Lingard and keane get into the squad.

I don't believe we will sign any wide players. We have too many already if Zaha and lingard are also in the squad next year unless we are selling a few more like Young or valencia or even both.

The reason I believe he will buy 2 mids is we are very short there next year with fellaini, carrick, cleverly and can see us adding 2 more. I don't think we can genuinely count on fletcher both age and health wise.

It is interesting to see what we do if we don't qualify for Europe as that might have an impact in terms of squad size and if we buy the extra 1 or 2 players or go with a smaller squad and have some of the younger guys coming through.

Stevie, if that's the case then shame on Moyes.

Playing the percentages isn't working in terms of results and its not getting anybody out of their seats either.

Moyes would be far better unleashing the talents we have and having a real go at teams (remember Leverkusan?). The fans would get behind him more (attack, attack, attack) and might get some value for money from those very expensive tickets and TV subcriptions.

For Utd fans losing is one thing. Losing and being boring is quite another matter all togther.

LFC and Anon. You are both right that the set up is not perfect but the four players I mentioned are the four best we have so in my view we should try to play in a way which gets the most out of them.

Shahram, Moyes doesn't rate Rafael. Duncan Castles has impeccable sources and he says Moyes wants a new RB as Rafael is unreliable. He isn't wrong, Rafael is unreliable. I think we will go all out for Coleman. The penny has dropped with him and Moyes likes him. Everton may be difficult to deal with, but maybe MU will offer Rafael as a makeweight or another player? Rafael does seem like a Martinez type player. In order for Moyes' tactics to work we need the right fullbacks. Papers think Shaw and Coleman. I am not so sure we will get either, but I do believe them when they say Moyes wants them two.

I'm not disagreeing, Andrew, but I'm not sure he'd get too much sympathy on here if he went out with great attacking intent, and still continued to lose. People have made up their minds.

I could take it. We had some great attacking teams down the years pre-Fergie, who won very little but were good to watch.

I just think nowadays, for all people say they want to see attacking football, they primarily want success, especially after being spoiled over the last lot of years.

Say we played a lot of all-out attacking football, used more kids, and carried on losing because of our weak midfield and parts of our defence, and finished 12th. Fans would be calling for him to be strung up, never mind sacked, as opposed to playing the percentages and maybe finishing 5th or 6th.

I'm not saying it's right if that is his thinking, because I just want to see us progress on a purely footballing level for now, which primarily includes attacking, exciting football, but I can sort of see why he's going safety first.

I just wish he'd remember where he left his cojones, and understand that there are still a lot of fans who hope he succeeds, and would be prepared to give him a bye ball, if he did indeed take off the shackles.

Stevie, I believe a lot more fans would be understanding if he played to the strengths of the squad which happen to co-incide with the club's traditions.

At least this way we could see what he is trying to achieve and I'm sure most fans would see he didn't have the quality of players throughout the team to quite make it work every week.

Like you, I could take it also if we had a few more valient defeats alongside a few more squashbuckling victories. It would be more of a rollercoaster but more exciting at the same time.

I don't think Moyes has anything to lose. We're not going to qualify for Europe at this rate and we also won't get relegated so he might as well go for it and see what happens.

I think Rogers set the blueprint in that he started with a clear philosophy on how he wants to play and gradually he is improving the quality of players he has available to make it happen.

At the moment I think Moyes is inviting trouble on himself because he hasn't demonstrated what he is looking to achieve.

12 Feb 2014 13:08:46
Just watching the arsenal game from 11/12 I'm sure you all remember it, and I can't believe how much the team has changed, not in terms of personal but in the way in which they play. Tom Cleverly is almost a different player, looking to take on his man and find the pass, Ashley young not looking like a one trick pony, smalling looking confident on the ball, Rooney looking dangerous on the counter with pace. The only player who looks like he's improved over the last 3 years is David De Gea which is remarkable considering the average age of the starting XI in this game must be 23/24, why are our players progressing backwards. I was really hoping players like smalling and jones would be ready at this age for the first team when you look at other players their age progressing so well like papadopolus of schalke and mangala of Porto.

We were better back then and Arsenal were terrible mate. Guys like nani, ando, young have gone backwards and were better back then.

I would also argue that Hernandez has also stagnated.

Even against lesser oppositions players like cleverly and young just looked stumped and confused? They must really lack in confidence

12 Feb 2014 12:51:12
Disapointment in fans

Morning all, I have been a great follower of this website for some time and even posted in the summer as I found out info regarding Rooneys contract and that he would be staying (then looking for more money) dependant on Utd's season. So far so good.

My point is nothing to do with transfers but as a lifelong fan of United and having travelled home and away for 20 years to date, and my dad for 30 years before me, I am shocked by some of what I read on here. Safe to say that unless you know the ages of some people, (and I have no issues in younger generations making comments) you never quite really know how much of the good and bad times people will have seen. However to this season, in the past 20 years, Utd have never had to consider ousting a manager. We've been spoilt, with the great man ferguson, however all I have heard over the majority of my time following Utd is that we would never as fans be like Liverpool, Chelsea, or City in calling for the managers head, in such a brief period of time, as we understand our history and heritage has been built on stability and the manager being the most important person at the club. Now without Moyes being in the job more than 7 months, people are stating, he should never have been chosen, his tactics are outdated, ferguson should not have got involved in his appointment, he always played long ball at everton and now united do the same.

What? We have been criticised by fans of all clubs for being glory hunters and I never for one understood why. We would always follow the club through thick and thin, and when the time came that fergie would retire (and we all knew one day it would come) we would stick by whoever was chosen, as we knew it would be hard for anyone to fill his shoes. But i'm slowly starting to understand what fickle fans means in football and that maybe the 'Prawn sandwich brigade' actually really are there for trophies and corporate entertainment rather than understanding that United is a religion, based partly on fully understanding the tragedy's the club has come through.

From the ''Bombing of Old trafford'' in 1940 through to the Munich air disater, in 1958, this club has been rebuilt more than once and unfortunately needs re-building again. If you don't see or know this then what are you watching, and why do you believe Ferguson uttered the words of ''your job is to stick by our new manager''. which he has repeted many times since.

We have come back from the brink on many occassions, and i'm sure we will face uphill tasks again.

Stop reading newspapers, listening to Radio shows and scrolling your twitter accounts for negative information on Utd. Go to games, or if not watch them with a clear mind. Sunday saw us set the record for the most number of passes in a game, most forward passes, most crosses in a game and yet apparently our brand of football on sunday was poor. ha ha ha, don't make me laugh. We have always been 4-4-2 and we always will do. We play with wingers and wingers deliver the ball in the box (granted sundays delivery's from Young, Evra, rafael and others were poor - however is this Moyes fault. come on)

I agree certain players aren't good enough or of a united standard. I believe moyes does to, however this was a job that Moyes could never win initially. If he came in and cleared the decks straight away, people would moan, if as he has done, given those that we know are not good enough at united a chance to prove under a new manager, they could blossom, people would moan.

Will Moyes be a success. I don't know, but what I do know is that he won't if fans who crave the here and now succeed in ousting him rather than those that truly understand united, get behind him to give him every chance to succeed.

We may not get 4th, we may not get 5th, 6th, but anyone that truly understands football, and understands how a club who has just made a change after 26 years, will take more than 7 months to re-build, will understand that it will take more than money, and in fact time to once again be the leading team in English and world football.

Rant over. Reply if you wish, football is about opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs, and I respect that, but respect Moyes also and give him time to change what was an overachieving side last year, relying on the goals of RVP. It seems there are issues howeer nobody knows what they are, not the media, nor ex players of other clubs, nor even the majority of ex players at our club, and let's do what as fans we are relied on to do, which is supporting the club you love.

Great post, really enjoyed the read. You say "We have always been 4-4-2 and we always will do"

Do you think with the right players we can play 4 4 2 and still challenge for the CL and EPL? Is it still an effective system at the very top of modern football?

12 Feb 2014 14:12:01
Very good post, and for the majority I completely agree.

I honestly believe that his biggest mistake as far, and one that's had the most impact this season, is the removal of the entire back-room staff. I can't help but feel that if he had just stuck with those that served Sir Alex well previously, we'd be in a much, much healthier position. For me, is was too great of a change, too soon. To make a 'transition' successful, the PACE of the transition is absolutely critical.

WF Red Devil

That post deserved a name to go along with it, mate.

Just a wee word of advice - prepare yourself for the lynch mob. They're a comin!

As a Utd fan for over 35 years I agree with your comments and posted something similar a couple of weeks ago.
Some of the posts on here suggest that Moyes is stupid, that he knows nothing about tactics and he can't get the team playing well.
He wouldn't have been a PL manager for any clb if all of those things were true. SAF was not the best tactician but that was why heemployed a technical coach to deal with this side of the game. Perhaps in time Moyes will have to do the same but don't people think that Moyes won't be able to work that out for himself?
He has SAF and ex players in his coaching staff who can advise him if they need to work more on tactical play etc.
Moyes needs time and true Utd fans have patience as they remember the bad times of the past along with the good times of the last 20 years.
Utd till I die.

Sorry guys, the name is Insiderintheknow.

Just a fan like everyone else.

Lynch mob. ha ha. Were all fans and we all see things differently. that's football.

However we should all have one goal, to make sure the club we love succeed's. Do we want this by ploughing bankrolled millions in to the team, sacrificing the youth that have served the club well over its history. no, of course not, however we want the team to do what we all sing about, and know we have . our History.

The glazers need to stump up now as the team needs rebuilding. The biggest crime will be if tehy give him nothing over the summer and carry on as is. Then we can all agree that they are shortsighted.

Like I say, I don't know if Moyes is the right man. I believe he will be given time and there's nothing anyone can, nor should do about it apart from get behind the team.

After all it is our club.

Insider, a lot of us don't know if Moyes is the man and we all have our doubts, but he's going to be here for a while so coming on calling for his head every day is a waste of time and effort, and just a chance for some people to get things off their chest, to avoid getting arrested for domestic violence or animal cruelty.

I think some were passionately against him from the start, and have laid into him from day one as a result, because they can't accept that Jose or Klopp weren't coming. That's coloured their thinking ever since.

A lot, like me, didn't have him as our first choice, or even our second, third or fourth, and think he has made mistakes, but are prepared to give him the chance to do his own thing with his own team, then judge if he's fit to carry on.

We're also long in the tooth to know that football teams go in cycles - Fergie's reign was just a freak - and that all empires come to their natural end at some point, no matter how much we rail against the dying of the light.

A lot of scaremongering on here lately about doing a Liverpool, and going back to the Sexton years, but I like to think most supporters are just wanting to get this season over with, see what Moyes does in the summer, and see if there's any progression next season.

If there's not, then he'll be away, and the lynch mob can turn their sights on our next manager :)

Insider - He was my first choice and I was full prepared for a dodgy period. However what I wasn't expecting is how he comes across in the media and how he seems on the touchline. He sounds and look like a man devoid of ideas. Nobody who comes on here knows exactly what goes on in Moyes mind or in his office. I am less than impressed with his demeanour and how he comes across in the media. This is what is hard to take, if he is saying one thing and then doing another, fair enough - but I hate the lies. Nobody knows what's going on and I just wish he would act like he knows what he is doing if he really does know what he is doing! At the moment he looks like a man out of his depth - McLaren at England and I didn't expect it.

Great post.
Don't agree with it all, think the odd change in formation with the players we have would be a wise move.
But a lot of what you said agree totally with.

Rooney Must Go

I agree with you, some of his comments to the media is not good and I wish he was more selective in what he says LOL. To be fair they are also taking a lot of things out of context and putting their own twist on it.

12 Feb 2014 12:18:26
With Vidal signing a new contract does any see a worrying trend in our pursuit of a top class cm?

Last summer Cesc flirted with us as a means to further his position in the Barca first team. Now Vidal, who was open to a move, suddenly has a huge new contract. And, Kroos, who is the latest name to emerge, is, surprise surprise, locked in contract negotiations. With options dwindling, are people still so certain that the midfielders we need will arrive during the summer?

Personally, Herrera remains the best option, but if we sign him we will have wasted a season chasing shadows.

I think MU plan to go for Gundogan this summer, but we will not get him. He will join RM. Personally I would go for Koke or Herrera if Vidal, Gundogan & kroos are not attainable.

Love it Danny.

So if we sign Herrera, in what would be a good signing and a boost for the club, and who knows, might lead to some feeling good about our manager, you already have your, 'year spent chasing shadows', argument ready to roll, just in case the positivity on here gets out of control.

Now that's advance planning!

Jeez Stevie, you do really like following me around like a lost puppy.

Let me clarify: Herrera would have been a good signing in the summer, he would have been a good signing last month and he would be a good signing in the summer. However, Athletic have set a price for him, and have explicitly told us that if we pay the price we can have the player. Now if during the summer we agree to pay their price because then we will have wasted a year, as in we could have had Herrera this season and he would have made a massive difference to our team.

Now there's a good lad Stevie, yes you are.

12 Feb 2014 11:18:59
We really need a little realism when discussing Moyes and United. Roy Keane's recent statement saying we still need 5 or 6 players and blaming it on the owners lack of investment in the team is one I agree with and have posted on here a few times. I posted about a year ago we needed 6-8 players over the next 2 years purely to cover for players aging/retiring and some players simply not good enough. Eric the dog(sorry I'm dyslexic) how you can say we only needed a LB and a CB last August is beyond me.

Another regular poster on here said that far too many of our prime age players were vastly underperforming and they were spot on. Nani, Anderson, Macheda, Bebe Kagawa and sadly Chico all fall into this category. I'm sure others would add Young, Valencia and Cleverley or Wellbeck to this, but I see them as squad players. There is a tipping point when even great players ( Giggs this year) go from outstanding to very good with flashes of their old brilliance to deadwood, cruel but true, Rio and Evra can be added to this with Carrick and Vidic also declining. On the owners behalf I must add they surprised me with Mata, did I mention I hate humble pie?

Now Moyes would have been my choice. I was shocked with the summer transfer debacle and stunned when we signed Fellaini but he's here now and I hope I'm wrong. When Moyes said he wanted to give everyone a chance you have to respect and accept that even if, like me, you disagree. Jan. window again we got none of our targets but Mata is a great signing. Moyes seemed to be moving towards a 4231 formation just before January, not just me but a few others on here noticed it, but now we have the IDEAL forwards for it we're back to well I'm not sure what. Janu, was being overplayed from necessity, has been one of, if not, the best player so far this season and a 1 game break would have been perfect for him. He's played about 40 mins in our last 3 games? So yes since the new year I'm disappointed in our starting team and our tactics, if we have any. If. approaching Xmas next year, we are still not challenging for top 4 I'll start asking for his head. It is a very tough task to rebuild but by then we need to see a marked improvement in signings and tactics.

For the future we need to have our transfer targets clearly established and almost done before June 6th. No excuse no, no value in the market.

The worrying thing is the cost of bringing the squad back up to the level it once was. What would a 25 year old version of Scholes, Keane or Giggs cost to buy now? Top defenders are going for 30-40 mil now, & we could use 3 of those as well. Can't see the Glazers parting with that sort of money.

12 Feb 2014 10:25:17
If the last match showed us anything it showed us just why DM has not given Zaha a look in.

He doesn't care if he has pace or can beat a man and do a trick or two, What he won't do is collect the ball take a touch and cross first time. The idea of a winger trying to beat his man with skill is something that is just not the done thing in this new United era.

Its not what the guy has done in training or his attitude or any of that rubbish simple truth is. he is just not a DM type player.

I would like to see the boy succeed like everyone else. I watched him yesterday for about 30 minutes in the Cardiff game when he was eventually subs off after 60 minutes.

I find him quite an odd player to try and figure out. He might turn out to be very good or an absolute flop and disaster. One thing he does have is he is strong for a winger and defenders will nto be able to push him around.

Whilst he has that one moment of nice skill or play, he is very raw and nothing to do with a new era. I remember watching Sanches at Udinese years ago and then at the last world cup where he shredded the right side of Brazil defense and thought my god this boy can play (I know he dives) but he is a great winger but never get that sense with Zaha.

He hardly get involved for long periods, not sure if it is because he does not work hard enough, the team is just crap or what it is but would welcome comments. I saw the same thing in their last game at Swansea.

On the defensive end he does absolutely nothing and I mean that.

Guys like Mourinho would not have enough patience with him to even have him around their squad.

GCU

You do know the man that chose him is probably a better judge of a player than you or I or even DM.

You stated yesterday that SAF chose DM and that should be enough for everyone to back him yet his very last signing. a substantial 15m worth of a signing is a bit over rated. you changing your mind on the great mans decision making already?

Before ya go beserk note the sarcasm in this post :)

DD

LOL, I am not going to go berserk and actually enjoy the banter. After all we all support the same club even though we have different views. I asked how old you are as it helps understanding from what walk of life you come from and glad you did not take the bait by Redman further down the page. He likes to stir things up because that is what he is "a stirrer" and would make a great bartender LOL.

On a serious note, I am genuine interested and was wondering what others thought.

I mean for christ sake I am watching Cardiff games now:) just to see if the boy is good enough.

Zaha hasn't impressed me in the last few games. He obviously has the physical attributes, but, let's just say that he doesn't seem to be the thinking man's footballer.

In his defence though, he is young and looks like he's trying way too hard to prove he's a great player every time he gets the ball. Last year he was top dog at Palace and was given a, largely, free role. This season he's been relegated to the bench and reserves, and his confidence has taken a kicking. So he's desperate to show everyone that he is really good, and this is contributing to poor decision making. He can learn and grow, but he needs to focus on the team rather than his own personal game.

I did, however, point out last season that his signing was another example of the club cutting corners as Keane put it. We went for Hazard and Moura, but they cost too much. So we went for Zaha instead and when you cut costs by investing in potential, it doesn't always translate into a top player.

Danny

So you have seen the same thing. I am not too worried about him making mistakes offensively or defensively as he will learn from it.

What worries me is watching his movement both offensively and defensively, he is rarely in the right area and hardly gets a touch. he does not work hard enough in terms of his movement.

Got to agree with you there Danny.

You could see we were on the slide in 2009. It wasn't the fact we sold Ronaldo and Tevez leaving it was the players we actually bought that summer. Valencia, Obertan and Michael Owen. When you replace 1 out of this world superstar and 1 very good player with average players it will catch up with you in the end so Keane is quite right in what he is saying. As the saying goes buy cheap, buy twice.

Even though this isn't 1 of our best squads we should be doing a lot better. On the other hand I was impressed by the signing of Mata for that price and we need some more of that if you ask me. We seem to be prepared to challenge in the transfer market so we need to match that now on the pitch

12 Feb 2014 09:50:31
Like many on here I want to be fair to Moyes. I don’t want us to be a club that dumps the manager the moment things get tough, and experience elsewhere in the league tells us that switching managers quickly doesn’t guarantee improvement. Anyway, I’m sure the club will give him at least until the end of this season.

So I am trying to understand how we could be playing so badly. Moyes didn’t seem to be a bad manager at Everton, and his squad is of better quality at United.

I deal with numbers all day at work, so I thought I’d try a statistical approach to the problem. I looked at the percentage of points won by Moyes' Everton against Arsenal, Chelsea, Tottenham and City since he took charge in 2003/4. Over that entire period his team took around 30% of the available points from those games (in other words out of the 24 points available each season from these fixtures, Everton took 7 points on average). This year so far we have taken 5 points from the 6 games we have played against these teams – that's 28% of the 18 points available.

In other words despite switching teams, he is bang on target in terms of the number of points he usually picks up from these fixtures!

But with United’s squad, surely he should be doing a lot better (I hear you all say). True – SAF’s record over the same period was an average of 12-ish points out of the 24 – roughly 50% on average.

The obvious conclusion to draw is that for whatever reason, the players themselves are not playing to their potential. Either we set up tactically for these games in a way that doesn’t allow the quality we have on the pitch to show through (i.e. we use the players to ‘do an Everton’)…. or the players themselves are just under-performing due to age (Giggs/Ferdinand/Evra?) or maybe just because they are unsettled after a change of manager. There’s also the factor that we are using players this season that didn’t get as many games as they did under SAF (Welbeck/Cleverley not as good as Van Persie/ Scholes?)

I am no expert on tactics so I don’t know if Moyes is setting up to play in the same style that he used at Everton – can anyone help here?

By the way, the figures I worked on also showed that whilst Moyes earned fewer points than SAF in the top team fixtures, he did earn more points than the average of all the other premiership managers, which supports the view that he is a better than average manager – although maybe not United quality…time will tell.

12 Feb 2014 09:39:36
I was having a discussion with my mates in the pub last night about the players we should look at signing, most were saying Shaw, Vidal, Costa but I was more hoping for the likes of Felipe, Garay, Vidal/Pogba, Sanchis (Barca lad) as he can lead the line and play in all positions behind a striker, we also discussed which players may leave and our list looked like this.
Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Giggs, Nani, Anderson, Bebe, Hernandez, and here might be the big one RVP as well as the likes of Mecheda and a few reserve team players.
I also said D Moyes but all the lads said no chance.

What players do you think will leave and may come in Eds and the rest of you guys. i'd be interested to see who you all think will leave or arrive in the summer.

Well of Vidal signs a new deal then that's him out of the window as he will have no incentive to leave. I'd like to see is go for Varane, Felipe, Kroos and Cavani. I can see RVP leaving so a world class, feared striker is necessary, ideally someone with pace and presence. I think we should play 4-1-4-1 with Cavani leading the line, Fellaini holding, then a 4 of Mata, Rooney, Kroos and Januzaj.

Tucker

I like Herrera a lot. Technically a brilliant player who can play many positions and has pace. Btw I was posting about him last year even before he was s upraise bid by us in the summer. I also think Kroos is a every good player but not sure if he is attainable.

I know the moderator believes Gundogan will go to RM but I believe he will come our way if we want him. His recent long term injury is what might scare some teams off but don't know what is exactly the issue.

I believe we will bid for Shaw/ Coentrao and it all come down to us and Chelsea.

I like Benatia, Schar, Garay and expect us to pick up one of them.

I don't believe we will get reus or Draxler and don't think we would be interested to spend that kind of money on a left winger. Janusaj looks like being the Permanent solution with maybe a young/nani kept as a backup.

Finally, the world cup will always throw up a big list of new players that are not media darlings at the moment but will become household names.

Another factor is teams like Bayern, PSG, Barca, even Chelsea will have a difficult time hanging on all their midfielders/players as players want to play and the novelty of being at a big club but to playing enough will wear off, kind of like what is going on with Hernandez at our place.

What is more interesting is how much can we actually spend and if we do actually go out and decide to spend 120 million net which should work out to 14 gross, the possibilities are exciting.

One thing noteworthy that no one talks about, teams like Chelsea, City, Liverpool have to curb their spending based on FFP rules. On the other hand if reports of Vidic, Evra, Ferdinand, Nani and few other leaving are true that will be a significant factor in our books and financials we will be in a great position after a very long time to actually offer better terms than if we want a player that badly.

In Summary I am very relaxed with player signing in the summer.I hate to be positive but someone has to :)

12 Feb 2014 09:16:33
Morning Gents,

StevieK, sorry, the long post you responded to was myself, I took ages on it so maybe I timed out? Just seen I wasn't signed in.

Can't really say I'm looking forward to tonight but I think our best chance of winning is if we ''beat'' Arsenal up like we have done in previous encounters. It sounds silly when we have Rooney, Mata, Januzaj, RVP in the team but I don't think currently we can 'outplay' Arsenal so we need to get stuck into them, so I am hoping, never thought I'd say this, Fellani could make a timely return to CM and put himself about. But I suppose even if fit, Moyes won't through him straight back in.

Ports

What we need to do tonight is rough Arsenal up a bit but as you say have we the players to do that? Probably not.

Also will we be set up to do that or will we back off and allow them time on the ball and defend our area I feel that's what will happen and that could be disastrous.

What we need is to defend properly and not gift them a goal. we need a solid first 20 minutes and no gifts. It will very tight game and would not be surprised to see us win.

We need 3 midfielders. Arsenal does not do well when you shut down the middle. Jones would be very useful if fit since fellaini is not match fit and would to be off much use.

Ports, good to see you back, mate.

12 Feb 2014 02:33:56
To tonight's game.

I don't believe Arsenal are unbeatable even at the Emirates. They often become brittle at this time of year and the Scousers showed the way to dismantle them. Galling as it is the question is whether we have either the pace or the tactical nous to play that way. Arsenal push their fullbacks up and if you can press them into an error in midfield there is space to be had. If you remember many years ago in a semi final SAF told Ronaldo not to come back but to use the space left to cause problems. Liverpool broke well into wide areas plus they singled out Mertesackers lack of pace. In midfield we cannot have just two centrally we need to match them and push our back line higher compacting the space they like to play in. Played right and with Arsenals mind set after the last game if we can score first and break well after that we could get something. Too many "ifs" but we have a chance and RVP will likely be highly motivated want to score and repeat his celebration. Without Walcott they don't have electric pace but compacting midfield makes it difficult for them to work the one twos they play, they may get frustrated and we need to break quickly. We need to watch Oxlade Chamberlain who can do something different mind you. There is a lot of pressure on Arsenal tonight and their crowd could add to that pressure especially if we score first.

Red Man

Liverpool destroyed Arsenal by varying things and cutting them open through the middle, scoring 5 goals.

We struggle to break down the worst team in the league by playing solely down the wings.

So you'd think that tonight, Moyes will have the lads playing through the middle more? Especially after the media have started questioning his reliance on crosses.

If he doesn't, then we need to start worrying bigtime.

Arsenal were destroyed due to them conceding two early goals from set pieces. Then when pushing hard for a goal themselves, Liverpool just got them on the break. Liverpool played well, but they essentially won the game after two poorly defended set pieces.

Arsenal will not be as careless tonight and we do not have the pace Liverpool have to catch Arsenal on the break. Different teams make different matches, just like different fighters make different fights. Fulham parked the bus, Arsenal won't. So the two games cannot be compared.

Red Man, I think had we won 2.1 on Sunday, we would have went into this game full of confidence. I just feel the late goal has knocked all of the wind out of us and I do not see us being as pumped up for this game as we could have been.

Boring 1-0 to someone, probably arsenal haha