Manchester United Banter Archive February 13 2015

13 Feb 2015 18:54:49
Just realised something, I wonder if Beast is a certain Scottish manager now plying his trade in Spain?

Haha good one. More likely a certain Scottish Manager now plying his trade in the boardroom of Old Trafford.

He can't be happy that's for sure.

I thought Beast was Ronald Koeman!

I was thinking more on the lines of Paul Merson. ;)

Beast is the one off dads army shouting "where all doomed "
Gds is the one shouting " don't panic"

14 Feb 2015 11:42:50
I thought he was the important person at Utd whom LVG has pissed off as mentioned by Ed002

13 Feb 2015 15:00:31
Sorry for the delay - been out shopping with the Mrs - horrible!

JMB - Moyes in a heartbeat, he is wrong for sure but he is not as wrong as LVG is - the problems Moyes had were ten times more difficult to solve than the ones LVG has (mostly of his making) and I firmly believe if Moyes was in charge this season and LVG last we would have done worse last season and would be doing much better this season.

Don't get me wrong LVG has a better set of characteristics to be the Utd boss and on paper you pick LVG all day long, however he has too much of what we would consider the good stuff following Moyes: You need ego, confidence, experience, a winners mentality (to a degree), to have courage, tactical awareness. But all of these positive traits can turn toxic if you have too many of them, that is our problem with LVG. We had a weaker manager in Moyes who was overwhelmed, however LVG is too much of everything we needed, too arrogant, too stubborn, too tactically focussed destroying players individuality and most worryingly he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by being this way in order to say "I told you so" regarding his philosophy.

LVG is a tyrant who will systematically destroy the club in his quest to be proven correct about his philosophy (given the chance), that is much more concerning than a manager out of his depth and basically on a hiding to nothing from the get-go. That's where I stand, and I know Moyes was a disaster waiting to happen, LVG is a catastrophe though in my view, (just to avoid the usual stuff about Moyes again)

Red Man - Virtually any team would be in the FA Cup if they had had our fixtures, the FA Cup doesn't mean much at all anymore unfortunately - it's gone the way of Internationals, sad but true.

LVG is nowhere near winning the league which was his target and our target, the 3rd place CL thing is a financial target only not a footballing one. He has the ingredients to make Michelin Star meals but keeps turning out Beans on Toast. Nothing wrong with that now and again of course, but a good manager would have learnt by his mistakes. You can't compare us to Arsenal etc, because we have better players, resources, pedigree etc, all that stock we built up until 2011ish has been eroding in recent years, to the point where Burnley rightly fancy their chances in our own backyard.

Not one person can hand on heart say that LVG is guaranteed to do well, they can only hope he will turn out well. All the logical money would be on him failing, because all the evidence to date indicates he is no further along with his plan than when he first proposed it. There has been no progress just talk and excuses.

I like all of us want us to win and play well, the sad fact is we are luckily picking up points and playing terribly - luck runs out and that is what quite a few supporters are worried about. We are closer to not finishing in the European Places than we are to winning the league as it stands, despite all of the massive advantage the manager has had over both our rivals and previous managers of Utd going back to Atkinson etc.

Just my view of course, but I stand by it still.

13 Feb 2015 15:14:40
Got to say I agree with everything beast has said here. To many valid points to ignore,and I don't think that he is being negative on this one just realistic of the possibility of lvg's ego getting the best of what's best for the team and the club to progress in the way it deserves.

13 Feb 2015 16:57:04
I think beast has a bigger ego than LVG and is maybe just a little more stubborn )

Its not about ego Ken, it's about having the decency to answer the questions put to me by fellow posters.

You can't tell me every game is luck?

maybe a few times in games we have gotten away with it but its not luck,

theres a reason we have lost 1 game since november and that's down lvg and the team not giving up.

how many times last season would we have lost games we have scrapped a draw or win this season?

you can't say oh its lucky. its called fighting spirt.

what more do you want? to win every game 5-0 having 100% possession.

what did u expect from last season? a total dominance in football because we spent a lot of money which given the squad needed investment.

we were getting beaten easily, not looking like a team that was going win games and that's why we finished so low down.

lvg has come in and we are one of the hardest teams to beat, we might not play fast tika taka football but that was never the plan, the plan was to get this team back to the confindence and level they should be at.

13 Feb 2015 17:09:59
Its just my opinion which is based on about as fact much fact as some of your opinions

Ken - yeah I get it you don't agree with me.

Spb - Of course it isn't all luck, just we rely on it far too much this season. We aren't putting 11 clowns on the pitch, they are the best paid group of players on the planet collectively so they will naturally apply a lot of skill and whilst I don't like LVG he isn't a total person (he wouldn't have been hired otherwise). The problem is we are performing like a lower PL team in most matches this season.

The league is competitive and we often see lower teams beating higher ones. I would like us to perform like a team befitting our station more often that is all, even QPR look good now and again!

My expectations are not too high, it is more than reasonable to expect the manager to take learnings from each game and apply them, its' more than reasonable to expect a team with such undoubted attacking talent to create and show more than what they have been. That is my point, if we were Burnley I would be happy with our displays this season, but we are not Burnley, we just approach games like we are!

Yeah I agree we should be playing better football given the players we have,

But to go from the tripe last season which I believe is worse than this season to then play exciting football.

I believe the manager is over protecting the defence which is having an effect on our attacking play, but it's working ATM.

We will just have to wait and see, if come next season we have CL and lvg gets the players to make our team balanced as he keeps saying then we should expect the style to be a lot more entertaining.

But for now we should be satisfied with the position were in and how things have gone from last season.

13 Feb 2015 19:20:43
Dear Mr Beast,

Going through your latest doomsday post, it just dawned on me how much it says about you than it says about LVG. Wow!! packaging all those views and opinions and presenting them as facts.Damn!! your Ego must be Huge. Perhaps the FA cup might not mean anything to the likes of you but it still means a lot to some of us out there and so unlike you, winning it will be a big deal irrespective of how and which team we play in the finals if we get there.

Well, after shopping with the Mrs any husband would need to blow off a bit of steam. Personally I am allergic to all retail establishments, on line or off, except grocery stores.

I think many of us are coming round to Beast's way of thinking.

Instead of adapting to the exigencies of the EPL, it seems like LVG wants not just United to yield to his philosophy, but the whole league. As such he is looking very much like a square peg in a round hole. Cliches like you can't teach an old dog new tricks spring to mind.

I hope we make 4th if only because I want more midweek football, but there are 4 very good well organized teams just behind us, all playing much better football.

LVG said it was going to take until Xmas to see the philosophy taking hold. Did he mean 2015? Hopefully it well gel sooner than that.

I love it how a few of you are saying that "My Ego" must be huge? It doesn't even make sense, you don't know me, my opinions are simply that "opinions". I am not acting on them, I am not firing LVG, I am not picking the team, signing players, I am not impacting your lives in any way. I am simply stating my views on a banter website, not a TV screen or a pedestal harassing ignorant people with a senseless placard wrapped around my chest.

I am not speaking down to anybody, I am not calling anybody stupid or immature for holding opposite opinions to myself. Not once I have mocked or berated any one of you for holding different views.

I think in psychology its called "transference", stop shooting the messenger is my advice, if you can't handle the truth then I am wasting my time.

Beast, every game we've won has been lucky? What a load of utter rubbish. All the other teams have had their share of luck.
If you're just critisizing lvg for the sake of it, then that's your problem. But 1 loss in 18 speaks for itself and if it was all luck then we should ask lvg for next week's lottery numbers!!
It is really mind boggling how some some people can twist everything to suit their argument. If you stick to the linen that we're playing unattractive football, then I'll be right behind you, but to be telling us that we're lucky and all the teams round us are going to start playing like Brazil while we completely lose the plot is baseless.

The overreactions that follow beasts posts are crazy if others were to post similar then it wouldn't register the same reaction's, if folk calm down and look at what beast is saying then you would realize that he has some valid points, with the games we have coming up and the teams around us how many of you would put your mortgage on us finishing top four.

Why are so many people afraid of the other teams we have the 3rd best defence, 2nd best home record and a good goal difference.

we have only lost to southampton n city from the teams around us.

makes me laugh were 3rd and people still are not satified.

after last year what were u all expecting.

14 Feb 2015 02:23:50
Oh you have a new fanboy beastie boy.

{Ed007's Note - Aawww diddums, do you need a hug? (finger)

Beast

You said the FA cup doesn't mean much at all anymore. So in 2003 when we were struggling under SAF the Millwall win meant nothing. The League cups won when we were struggling no doubt were worthless and heaven help those years SAF struggled, played poor football and won nothing at all. Were you calling for SAF's head in those years?

Beast
"Moyes in a heartbeat, he is wrong for sure but he is not as wrong as LVG is - the problems Moyes had were ten times more difficult to solve than the ones LVG has (mostly of his making) and I firmly believe if Moyes was in charge this season and LVG last we would have done worse last season and would be doing much better this season"

I could not disagree more strongly with your comment. Your hatred of all things LVG is blinding your objectivity. Again I will say that the momentum and fear factor were lost when appointing Moyes, opposition fans absolutely loved it. LvG may have spent a lot but the opposition were no longer afraid, even the pro's were saying even the promoted teams fancied their chances against us. Appointing LvG last season would not have pleased me but we would not have lost such a level of our fear factor as we did, if a higher profile manager had been appointed.

One thing is that LvG has come in and started weeding out those that needed it, it should have started last season.

14 Feb 2015 11:53:25
Red Man, do you really think we have got the fear factor back this season?

Burnley, years ago, would have camped round their own 18 yard box, and hoped for not too bad a duffing.

They came to OT and for large parts of the game had us under real pressure, and took the game to us.

Leicester? West Ham? Southampton?

Teams we would have been banking on for three points in the past, are no longer rolling over for us.

We may have lost that fear factor under Moyes last season, but there is nothing I have seen this season to suggest LVG has miraculously made it come back.

StevieK

No I don't believe we have the fear factor back, that will take time, confidence, performances and results. I expect us to be active in summer and make a strong start to next season, whoever is manager and then we may see fear of us again.

15 Feb 2015 11:36:24
I hope so, Red Man. I had very strong doubts about LVG when he was appointed (and not because he replaced Moyes!), and I haven't seen too much so far to make me change my mind.

At least the squad itself is an improvement on what we had recently, so we at least have something to work with should he be replaced in the summer.

13 Feb 2015 12:19:18
If the season had started 15 games ago, we would be top of the league:

United - 34 points

Chelsea - 33 points

City - 31 points

Looking at that, things don't look so bad.

I seriously doubt a team devoid of confidence, spirit and a growing antipathy of the manager, would have been able to win that amount of points.

I saw that stat about 20 minutes ago too and thought WOW.

the way we are playing is aweful but at the end of the day it is a points game, and we are getting points.

I just hope that if we do manage to secure a CL place for next season, then next year with some additions we will see a more balanced, more attacking team back.

A right sided attacker and defender would work wonders IMO. We have enough options for the left side now.

I would promote Ben Pearson to the first team next season. The lad has everything to be a top draw CM player.

It's a bit surprising stat.
Maybe we all criticize United because
"We don't want United to be second to anybody. Only the best would be good enough.

Nobody is complaining about results, its the way we are getting them.

That stat does surprise me being honest. If it were possible to do I wonder where we would feature in the league table for entertainment, or value for investment/wages charts?

13 Feb 2015 17:17:39
Gary player once said the more he practised the more lucky he got. its not been luck DDG is there to save shots its not luck at all, the facts are over the last few months we have achieved more points than anybody else . it has been 3 years sice we can claim that over such a sustained period.
1 defeat in 18 games is impressive by any standard. its better than any other team in any top flight league in Europe

If my auntie had a beard she would be my uncle. How does the League able look if we just take in the last games? If we do it since the New Year Liverpool would be top.

It's all bit spurious. We are 3rd but right now we are not playing well, not sure why people get so upset with that being pointed out.

The point is, people are getting ate up without realising that the season isn't going so badly.

If we finished third and won the FA cup - IMO - that would be an excellent first seasons work from the manager.

13 Feb 2015 09:42:53
What we (myself included) have to remember is that top four is absolutely vital this year. We cannot afford to drop out for two years in a row and the owners know this. Finishing in the top four is more important than performing well or playing attractive football. Yes it's hard to watch but we have to think long term.

If we make top four this year but continue to play like this next year then I will start banging the LVG out drum. For now he is (as awful as it to see at times) getting the job done.

All that being said, I really want to see more Herrera and Mata.

Whilst that is true if the performances were to improve we would find winning easier

I think we need to stop thinking that finishing in the top 4 and playing good/attractive football are mutually exclusive. Yes our defence isn't strong enough, but the idea that boils down to a choice between curbing attacking tendencies or shipping tons of goals is a straw argument. The fact of the matter is that van Gaal has argued that he needs this season to implement his philosophy, so people who think that next season will see a new style of play are ultimately kidding themselves.

Scholes was bang on today. In Fergie's time players were encouraged to take risks and play the ball forward. Not because Fergie was reckless, but because that's how the best teams win games. The fact of the matter is that van Gaal is playing lots of attacking players. For example, in the last game he started Rooney, Januzaj, Di Maria, Falcao and RVP. The issue is that (a) the team is unbalanced - no width and players not playing in their best positions, and (b) the attacking players are being asked to go against their natural instincts - look backwards and sideways instead of trying to drive forward. This leads to a ridiculous situation in which we have a bunch of attack minded players attempting to play conservative possession football and failing.

The galling thing is that the obvious solution (that van Gaal has refused to entertain) is that we are playing two forwards who essentially do the same thing (play off the last man and try to run in behind), and are in terrible form. The obvious solution is to drop one of these similar players and use the space opened up to add a player that increases the balance of our team.

As usual, I find myself agreeing with Danny. It's not rocket science is it?

Given how poorly we are playing, how little impact our forwards are having, and how poor we were in the 1sthalf against Burnley, will we see any change in personnel and approach?

Superb post Danny and nail on the head award for the day !!

13 Feb 2015 08:21:38
Ozwald
So if we finish top 4 lvg has done well.
If he doesn't he has been poor regardless of anything else.

jred
----------------------------------
I think the best way to describe a top four finish would be job done rather than him doing well. He will have done well to finish first or second. Top four is simply the basic objective of the season, especially with the players we have.

I think the squad is a bit of a mess. Far too unbalanced for one. I mean against West Ham after the basic back four you've got a Defensive Midfielder(Blind), 2 left wingers(Di Maria, Januzaj) and 3 strikers(Rooney, RVP and Falcao). Seriously? It's an absolute mess. What is the formation there? Is it 4-1-DoWhateverYouWant?

When Rooney is being played in central midfield ahead of a top quality £29m signing, who is rotting on the bench, something is seriously wrong. The only thing I can imagine is that Herrera is like Mario Gomez was at Bayern, not LVG's player. He came on Wednesday night and suddenly the team and certain others played much better. Probably be back on the bench for Preston.

Quite frankly, the loan signing of Falcao has been an absolute disaster as it has resulted in LVG trying to force Rooney into the team because "his captain shall always play", all the while Falcao has been absolutely terrible. I'm afraid to say Falcao is simply a shadow of the player he was. I thought LVG had the balls to drop these players? RVP must have nudes of the manager or something? Wilson is our best striker atm. Pace, good on the ball and an eye for goal. Play him.

Personally, I think the turning point was the away game to Leicester. You may remember we played some great football in a 4-0 win against QPR, and then for 60 minutes against Leicester before falling apart, we were great(Herrera key in that too). I think that collapse stuck with him personally. Became to cautious and afraid to try anything new so just lumps in as many individuals as possible and hopes a few moments of magic will be enough. Eventually, we'll get a doing if this keeps up.

And he thinks the answer is Strootman.

GAGUS - I agree with most of your points but remember the first 4 games of the season:

Swansea, Sunderland, MK Dons & Burnley - we were absolutely atrocious in those, all before QPR & Leicester. Then we should have been beaten by Everton & West Brom.

So the QPR game and 60mins against Leicester, seem more like the odd games out at the start of the season. We only turned up for one half against QPR as well. Its a myth that we were playing well before the Leicester fiasco.

I agree, he(LVG) can't keep riding his luck it will catch him up eventually and absolutely spot on with Strootman, a very small upgrade on Blind is not the answer.

Sorry West Ham as well which we clung onto for our lives, then Chelsea last minute goal to save a draw. Ultimately out of our first 10 or so games we played well once against QPR.

13 Feb 2015 09:18:59
Everything you have stated here GAGUS is fact. Although certain folk in here will argue the otherwise.

15 Feb 2015 11:38:03
GAGUS, I do believe that's the longest post I've ever seen you put on here. What's happened to the pithy one-liners, or have you shacked up with Shappy now?

13 Feb 2015 00:36:11
Beast

Further to my question early yesterday, are you going to let us know what you were saying during SAF's final title winning season because the football we played then was no better than now?

Redman
If its ok i will give u my opinion.
As i have said before it was one of fergys best achievements .
Won a title with an average team , infact won it by a distance .
I think our squad is better now

Jred

Don't disagree, it was one of SAF's finest achievements and I believe it was because as an iconic manager he had developed a fear factor in the opposition and continued momentum in the team and club which was then lost in a shockingly handled transition. The loss of those factors is proving tough to get back.

i look forward to Beasts response.

13 Feb 2015 03:29:09
Red Man the football we have played this season is far worse than the football we played in Sir Alex's final season. I know our game is a results based business but man we are boring, predictedable, boring, slow and boring.

13 Feb 2015 06:54:07
Juan u clearly have a short memory mate, we went behind in a lot of games in SAF last season buddy, without rvp we would of done well to get 4th let alone the title. The football was bad but we kept winning games.

RedMan - I wasn't impressed and I wasn't the season before that either. Obviously the arguments I was making at the time to friends and randoms was not holding up much as we were winning things - see how many disagrees I get now when we are nowhere near winning things and you will understand the battle I was fighting.

I am not a hypocrite and the football has been getting worse year after year. SAF should have stepped down in 2009, and I said so at the time. In saying that if I had known we would have ended up with Moyes and then this joker I would have begged him to stay until the perfect replacement was available. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

RVP almost single handidly won us that title. DDG is almost single handidly keeping LVG in a job.

13 Feb 2015 09:29:46
Beast if the only options available were to keep Moyes or LVG what would you choose?

Moyes couldn't get results Jmb Van Gaal has but Moyes had a clear vision of what he wanted to do remember the Bale Fabregas and Kroos transfer rumours at least he had in his mind his perfect team

MatasBeard (fine name)

To be fair mate he wasn't backed by the board at all so he had no chance of getting the players he wanted.

Beast

Firstly we are still in the FA Cup, until Monday at least, so it is premature to say we are "nowhere near winning things".

In the eighties we played some great football under Atkinson yet he was sacked due to a lack of success. Good football with occasional cups was and is not seen as acceptable. In recent years improved organisation, even of lower teams, has made it more difficult to play expansive football. Pragmatists like Mourinho and to an extent SAF have been winning when the football has not been great. Winning is what matters, Scousers talk endlessly about how great last season was yet they won nothing. The second place trophy gave them nothing but more radio air time yet I have to say for you it seems that nice attractive football seems to have become more important than winning. Wenger plays great football and last seasons cup is all they have to show for 9 years of pretty attractive football. Is that pretty football really what you think the manager should solely be judged on?

Winning is what matters. I saw plenty of good football down the years at OT and at the end of the season the parade was empty handed, whilst the Scousers or Arsenal won the league with plenty of pragmatic one nil victories.
League title wins even when SAFs sides played good football were built on pragmatic tough efforts and that is what we are getting.

It isn't pretty at the moment and I am not an LVG fan but I won't call for his head because he isn't playing pretty football. No one came over the parapet to say SAF should have been sacked in 2009 or even in the last couple of his seasons when the football was awful and yes juanmatasbeard it was as bad as this year, just that we won more games.

Pretty football is great but winning is what matters, very few do both all the time. If there are other factors and the board don't like LvG's plans or we fail to make top four and they sack him then so be it, I won't shed any tears. To get back where we were means being pragmatic to begin with, yet if poor football continues and success looks unlikely then I would also turn. I think you would have been an even more lonely voice calling for SAF to be sacked than you are now for lvG.

Right now the Scousers and City fans are wary it may come right for us, certainly, not as it was under SAF. However at the beginning of last season they couldn't believe their luck at who we appointed.

Finally if you get your way and LvG goes in summer I think Woodwards position needs to be considered.