Manchester United Banter Archive February 13 2019

13 Feb 2019 20:55:35
Declan rice declares for England.
First they take our potatoes now they take our rice😂😂😂😂.

13 Feb 2019 21:51:21
You mean the guy who was born in England, as well as his parents, he has two Irish Grandparents. It's a ridiculous rule, you should only be allowed to play for your country of birth or the country you spent the majority of your childhood as I can understand how growing up in a country will probably make you feel more closely associated with that country.

Everything else is a cop out to play international football.

13 Feb 2019 22:33:09
Spot on shapoy but we need the players, but when he thought he had no chance of playing for England he had no problem playing for Ireland,
Now the rules are all over the shop.
For me I'd know what country I'd be playing for from a young age,
The question is if you play for a country underage that's your country full stop.

13 Feb 2019 22:34:56
I think he was just making a joke.

13 Feb 2019 22:39:10
I was sepp.

13 Feb 2019 22:40:58
Anyway it's all about the money now, is he worh more in the transfer market now cause he is an English player.

13 Feb 2019 23:19:13
Welcome to my world, Leahy ;)

14 Feb 2019 07:44:18
Correct decision for the lad. Terrible way to go about it.

I'm Irish, have an English son. Born and raised in London. What's not to say he feels more aligned to the Irish side of his family when he grows up and wants to play football for them, that's if he is good enough of course.

Who is anyone to tell him any different?

14 Feb 2019 08:58:45
Angel, as pointed out by Pellegrini in relation to Declan Rice. If your good enough you'll play for England, if not then you'll play for Ireland. Lol.

14 Feb 2019 09:30:24
Spot on, Angel. My young lad's half Scottish, but he would never think of playing for them given the chance. He's lived all his life in Northern Ireland. Breaks his mother's heart 😁.

14 Feb 2019 11:17:53
Sly digs like that, I would have thought were beneath you shaps. maybe not.

Still doesn't answer the question I posed above. Who's to tell my son as and English born boy who is steeped in Irish history that as he was born here he can only play for England.

You're usually a good Poster, but that above is a load of tosh.

14 Feb 2019 11:59:30
When your young enough and good enough to play for a country at under age you decide then who you play for, it not a problem, then and you cut out all of this.

14 Feb 2019 12:16:55
Angel, its a "banter" site, no such thing as sly digs just good natured banter. Being Irish I would have thought you would have a sense of humour.

On to your question does your lad speak with an Irish accent? Does he identify as Irish? What about him other than having an Irish parent makes him Irish?

I understand as a proud Irishmen you would want your son to represent your country. However, how much he truly feels "Irish" might be hard for you to ascertain.

Would he feel at home living in Cork or Limerick, Galway or Dublin? Would he feel that he is where he belongs?

If so then he might well identify as Irish. However, international football needs to be built on a set of rules, firm, clear and non-negotiable rules.

If we are going to compete under the banner of nationality then there needs to be a clear line between what makes you that nationality or not. Otherwise its not really international football at all.

At the end of the day all human life started in what is Ethiopia today, so should everyone have to play for that national side? No clearly not, that's ridiculous.

So a line needs to be drawn somewhere. Personally I don't agree with "nationalised" status if that happened during adulthood. If you grow up in a country I can understand why you feel attached to that country more so than the country of your birth.

Should you be allowed to represent a country you have never lived in? that maybe your parents have never lived in? That you can't speak the national language of? For me the answer to all three should be no. I would argue that you do not have a stronger link to that country than the country of your birth or the country that you grew up in or the country of your mother tongue.

The grandparent rule is ridiculous and only in place for countries to pick players better than they can produce but not good enough for the country of the players birth.

In 1998 when "France" won the world cup it was a shambles. You had players from the four corners of the world playing in that side. Trezeguet wasn't even born in the same continent. When there are currently 38 Brazilian born players currently representing countries around the world that AREN'T Brazil it makes a mockery of International football.

If 90% of the Irish national team only "qualified" to play for Ireland through their grandparents would you truly consider that an accurate representation of Ireland?

22 of the 25 man squad never lived in Ireland, don't have Irish accents, don't truly know Irish culture and certainly haven't lived or experienced it.

I understand why you would want your son to represent YOUR country, but just be aware that it is YOUR country and not his.

14 Feb 2019 12:55:54
Shappy, you're missing the point. I will be very happy for my son to play for England should he desire. I've no issues at all.

My point is, who is to tell him he can't play for Ireland going your point of 'should be born there or grown up there'?

All in all, international football is a joke. But I feel my point still stands. I hope he grows up to be as connected to Ireland as he can particularly through his family.

But it will be his choice should he want to play for Ireland and feel nobody should be allowed to tell him otherwise.

If he is good enough to play for England I'd be just as proud.

14 Feb 2019 13:19:40
Angel, So should he be allowed to play for Brazil? Or France? Or Germany?

Who should tell him he can't? There are always rules, what I'm suggesting is that they aren't strict enough at the moment and I feel they have been relaxed with the intention of getting more higher quality players in to International tournaments. However, in doing so they undermine the idea of it being an international tournament. I disagree with having managers from different countries. If you are competing as a country then you should be hiring and playing people who are genuinely from your country.

Players like George Best never got to play at the World cup, should he have been allowed to play for England just so he can play in the tournament? No, and in that instance we are talking about one of the best footballers to have ever played.

There are rules and they are in place to protect the integrity of the tournament. I don't think allowing players to represent countries they have never lived in or have a genuine connection to should be allowed to play for those countries.

14 Feb 2019 15:15:00
I get where you're coming from Shaps, and I do think it probably should be restricted to parent's nationality. But it's easier to preach about strict nationality rules, when you belong to a country with a population of 60 million. Smaller nations don't have that luxury of a large talent pool, and if they're not allowed to use every advantage within the rules, then you may us well just let the big nations play each other all the time, because the chances of smaller nations staying competitive are greatly reduced.

14 Feb 2019 16:37:22
And sorry shaps. Sometimes hard to read between lines. I do have a great sense of humour, I swear 😂.

14 Feb 2019 16:38:27
Good point nou. International sports have become a joke though. Look at rugby, cricket etc.

14 Feb 2019 19:34:06
Stevie, are you taking the P? You had Georgie Best, so don't preach about smaller nations not having the talent.

On a serious note though I get what your saying. However, that still allows larger nations to abuse the system like France in 98, Germany with Kevin Kuranyi, Portugal with Deco or Italy with Thiago Motta.

These aren't small nations that typically struggle to qualify.

I feel the rule need to be stricter if you want to call it an international tournament. However, I do concede that the qualification process needs addressing so the smaller nations aren't shoved to the periphery as they currently are. Unfortunately the money is made by the "big" or "famous" football nations being at the tournament so they do rig it to make sure they are more likely to qualify with the seeding system. It sucks, but money makes the world go round, or so they say.

14 Feb 2019 20:14:10
Shapps, we are talking about a kid who's dad is Irish. If he feels more Irish than English due to his heritage and family, then who is anyone to tell him different. He is 1st gen and entitled to travel with his Irish passport. My boy is Irish and English, can play for who he wants.

Why would he be allowed to play for Germany or Brazil, using random countries to try and illustrate a point that makes no sense.

You stated if he's born in a country or grew up in a country then that's who he should play for. And I say nonsense to that. I'm arguing that point.

There should be a line, I think the Declan rice scenario was nonsense. His dad wasn't even born in Ireland. But the fact that he played for us all the way to and even 3 senior caps and then could change allegiance. That was nonsense too.

But born or raised in a country and can only play for that country I think is just silly.

I've got plenty of mates that are born and raised here but both parents are Irish and feel more connected to Ireland than most Irish born people I know. Using your logic, they wouldn't be allowed to represent Ireland. But in no way do they feel English?

14 Feb 2019 21:46:11
Or graham le saux or terry butcher or john barnes
Lots of english examples too left out of your post.

If the rules are there its up to the player. Rice is doing what he feels is right. I don't think he will play 10 games for england but its his choice he has to go with his heart.
Ray houghton had the best record imo a scots man scoring for ireland to win a match in euro 88 against england the stuff of dreams. 😂.

15 Feb 2019 07:41:15
Angel, my point of throwing countries like Brazil in there is because you said "who is to say who my son can or cannot play for? "

Yet your happy to accept he can't play for Brazil.

So my point has always been about where that line should be drawn.

Your point seemed like you were saying there should be no line. Yet you agree he shouldn't play for Brazil thus contradicting yourself on there being a line somewhere. My point was to highlight that you yourself would put boundaries on what is and isn't allowed. So you can't really then go on to say no one can place boundaries.

It's tricky, especially between England, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. As the cultures are very similar. Yet if you agree that there is a difference between English and Irish culture then a line can be drawn.

Personally though my understanding of how people develop and gain an Identity I feel that you really do need to spend a significant part of your childhood in a country enveloped in that countries culture to adapt and adopt that country as the over riding part of your identity.

I know a great many people who were born in one place but grew up in another, or were born to parents from other countries. Sadly they often struggle to feel truly connected to a place or culture that just isn't a part of them due to not being exposed enough to it at an early age.

That's why for me it is sensible to draw the line at having been born or lived a significant amount of time in that country as a child.

13 Feb 2019 16:32:10
Masterclass from Tuchel and PSG last night. They played us perfectly. Di Maria and Mbappe were superb, as was Marquinhos.

Lots of work to do with our team, that has not changed, but one defeat in 12 to an excellent side does not mean OGS is out of his depth and that we are crap again. We are a top 4-6 side, and came up against a better side on the night with better players.

13 Feb 2019 17:18:00
Serious question, does anyone feel that a different manager in the same situation would have got a better result last night?

They would have the same players available, would lose two key players before the start of the second half, and would have just as awful a performance from the officials.

What could have been done differently?

For me last night was more about exposing the limitations of the squad of players we have than the limitations of the manager.

Sure Ole could have put Lukaku on instead of Mata, but would he have made that much difference?

I said before Christmas that Lingard is the most important player in this team. He is often over looked and obviously so as there are more talented players in our side. Yet his versatility, work rate, and intelligent movement are what greases the wheels and enables the others to play to their best.

Once Lingard went off it was always going to be a hard night. Pair that with the fact we were playing one of the top sides, with a very clever and tactical manager it was always going to be tough.

The difference is we went into this game with hope and genuine belief we could beat them. We came up short. Yet most of us probably still carry a gimmer of a hope that we could over turn last nights result in Paris, even if it isn't a big hope. Under the last few managers none of us would even have that.

We all said when Mourinho was under pressure that there was more wrong at the club than just the manager. Ed Woodward is still clueless in terms of football, the squad is still a rag tag bunch from four different managers. These things can't be fix by a manager over night. We still need a DoF, and we still need to move on 10-12 players who either are not good enough or aren't able to adapt to how the club should be looking to play moving forward.

Personally I think we are two years away from genuinely challenging. Too many players need to be moved on and too many recruited, while the best of our current squad are still young (Shaw, Lindelof, Bailly, Dalot, Pogba, Lingard, Martial, Rashford) and developing. Give them two years developing and learning to play together in an offensive way. While supplementing them with quality additions and promoting promising youth players (Tuanzebe, Garner, Chong, Gomes and Greenwood), then blending them all together in a cohesive way to challenge for the biggest honors.

That won't happen over night, is Ole the right man? Maybe, we will know more after the Chelsea game. He certainly has the team moving in the right direction. Would it be sensible to rip up any foundations he lays this season for a new manager? They would have to be a serious step up to make that worthwhile. If Ole can get a response against Chelsea then he might just be the right candidate.

{Ed025's Note - im sick of saying this....but another fine post shappy..

13 Feb 2019 17:55:59
Two things that could have been done differently are-
1. Man mark Verrati out of the game. Put herrera to man mark him, similar to Marquinhos on Pogba.
2. Change Pogba's position thereby pulling Marquinhos out of position.

Putting Lukaku on the right would have pushed their fullback back and with Lukaku's pace and strength, could have seen another yellow for his troubles.

Just a few things to be done differently by a tactically astute manager.

Chelsea are all over the place so judging Ole after that game isn't a true picture. Probably the Liverpool game is a more realistic test.

Agree about Lingard though. Probably should have used a similar setup as we did against Spurs with Lingard as false 9.

13 Feb 2019 18:17:00
Good post Shappy, it's always easier to comment with hindsight. I fully agree about Lingard and my only slight criticism of Ole is he must have known that we'd struggle with Sanchez and Mata out wide.

I think he could have played Sanchez as a false 9 and split the strikers like we saw against Arsenal and Spurs. He maybe should have introduced Lukaku instead of Mata at HT. Could he have played 3-5-2?! It was obvious we regressed badly in the second half yet he didn't try to change it as our game crumbled before his eyes. It's all ifs, buts and maybe's now but I think if we'd have retained more of a threat on the counter we might have seen a different second half.

The top managers have the ability to analyse the game and make tactical alterations. That's not me being critical just giving my honest opinion and in fairness Ole has to give players a chance and trust them to perform. Mata and Sanchez are probably two of the most experienced players in our squad after all. It didn't work and we paid the price. What will be fascinating to see now is how Ole adapts if he's without Lingard and Martial for any length of time.

13 Feb 2019 18:37:48
Ole is showing us where we really are, we were better than our showings earlier in the season with a squad well capable of seeing off a big percentage of premiere league teams but we have a way to go to join Europe's elite sides .
The good news is the potential to upgrade the side in maybe 4 or 5 positions is pretty large and the jump in improvement should be easier than say city who would have to remove a pretty good player to add one .
We have some exciting players who will always give us a punchers chance against pretty much anyone but improvements are needed to bridge the gap to the very top end sides.

13 Feb 2019 18:56:53
To be fair to Ole, he accepted he would have to find a different way of playing if he lost our two first-choice wide men. He's still finding his way with the squad.

13 Feb 2019 20:55:32
We should make DGS Manager or at least ask Ole to take him on as a Consultant.

Lukaku has been dire for a long time, he set up 2 goals and suddenly we should play him on the right? Sanchez has also been dire and surely Ole’s patience will wear thin, at what point do we simply look to move on?

We have a strong first team and that was shown in a pretty even first half, but we don’t have squad depth so any injuries (or suspensions) hurt us.

13 Feb 2019 23:27:24
Honestly I am as passionate a Utd supporter as most but let's face reality here. How many of our players would get into the teams of Madrid Barcelona Liverpool PSG Spurs and City. The answer is very few and therein lies our problem. Our sqaud is good but not good enough. We need world class players to compete with the world's best teams.

14 Feb 2019 06:08:00
Thanks AJH. I am truly honoured. 😁😁. I am sure you meant that as a compliment (sarcasm) .

I am sure putting Lukaku there instead of Mata would have been a lot better. Lukaku has pace and he can run in behind which Mata lacks so might have been worth a punt. Ole missed a trick there because the way he sets up to counter, i do not see how putting Mata there helped in any manner given that Lingard was already off.

14 Feb 2019 06:12:16
Shappy

I agree with most of what you said, in fact have said most of it previously. I do think a more tactically astute manager may do better in such games. Ole follows SAF principles but often he and we were found out in Europe because we didn’t change or adapt our tactics. A more tactically astute manager may have done better, people will pile on and disagree but that is what Mourinho was canny at.

One result should not decide Ole’s future but we may know more about him after both Liverpool and Chelsea games.

Still I remain concerned that Woodward will remain in charge of recruitment with no DOF and Ole will be expected to perform under Glazernomics.

14 Feb 2019 07:21:28
Maybe your right Red man, but even in hindsight I struggle to come up with a fool proof solution for what we could have done differently.

Maybe playing Lukaku instead of Mata could have worked. Yet when against a team which are so good in possession you want people on the pitch who won't give it away easily with a poor touch or bad decision. To that end I can see the logic of playing Mata over Lukaku. Yeah Rom has more pace, but if he loses the ball it could leave us open to being countered. Also he has hardly been in scintillating form. He had a couple of good moments against Arsenal but that really is it since Ole took charge. Sanchez has been awful no matter who is in charge. So what other changes were available?

We have seen what happens to our side when we sit deep and park the bus against average EPL teams. We lose, can we really consider that an option against a very good PSG side? Could you imagine how much worse it would have been if we just allowed Di Maria, Draxler, Verratti and Mbappe to have the ball just outside out penalty box and just said go on break through? The tie really would have been dead.

We have a good first 11, not great. We have a poor squad. I don't think there is much any other manager no matter how clever that could have got a significantly different result. If Tuchel was in charge of us and Ole in charge of PSG then Ole would have won that game.

Our best hope was to play to our strengths and hope that was enough. It wasn't, we didn't get the rub of the green with injuries and decisions during the game. It happens.

14 Feb 2019 08:36:13
But Shappy, that is what we did. we sat in. allowed Verrati and co all the room to play. Pogba was bypassed by them and we only played with 2 MFs in Matic and Herrera. Honestly they opened us up twice in the first half, luckily they were caught offside. And that is at OT, not even an away game.

To be fair, our next manager has to be a crossover between a tactician like Jose and a happy go lucky Ole.

14 Feb 2019 08:40:05
Shappy

In games like that it would be better to be pragmatic, get a home draw nil nil, don’t concede. I watched PSG play Liverpool and they expertly beat the press through Veratti so we should see that. One of the points I have consistently made for years is that to win in Europe you have to be able to tighten up midfield. It isn’t good enough to close down opponents, you have to be able to play in triangles in and around each other, manoeuvre the ball but we have never learnt it. SAF said after the first Barcelona final defeat in 09 that he had learned, but he hadn’t. The new manager has to be able to play in a different way and be able to vary tactics, learn to control midfield in tight games or we won’t go anywhere. It isn’t just the players it is the way they are trained. We don’t seem to have ever preached midfield is the key and have too often paid the price in tight games. SAF is old school methods and we have to find a way forward from it or Europe will be the continuing frustration it always has been. We won the two SAF finals in the last minute and on penalties. Yes we entertain but to really stamp a mark in Europe and against major opponents we have to control midfield. It is why we sit with only 3 EC’s.

Why has no decision been made on a DOF? A DOF must report to the board and not Woodward or we will have more of the same.

This leads to recruitment, I keep reading we are interested in Douglas Costa, why? I may be off the mark but are agents whispering what a bargain, and our Exec VC is going for it? Is he the cheaper alternative to the real deal? This is what we have been doing, too often. There is a young exciting talent in Sancho but instead will we buy a cheap alternative that doesn’t hurt the Glazer pockets as much? . The whole situation concerns me and the Happy sounds of Ole doing nicely may be hiding reality and delaying or even preventing the changes that are really needed.

14 Feb 2019 08:40:24
Great posts shappy!

14 Feb 2019 09:32:24
Has anyone been watching Lukaku play lately?

14 Feb 2019 09:42:14
Smashin post that Redman.

14 Feb 2019 11:14:54
Excellent post Shappy.

DSG, Lukaku cannot do build up play. His touch is poor to play those intricate 1 touch passes.
Moreover, his record against top teams is unbelievably poor.

The match just showed our lack of strength in depth.

Just look at City, Jesus as backup for Aguero. Sane for Sterling. Mahrez for Bernardo etc, .
We are still a work in progress.
Atleast now we have an identity in our playing style.

Both the goals conceded by us were defensive lapses for which we cannot blame Ole much.

14 Feb 2019 13:36:39
DSG, That's not what we did. We tried to push up, but without pace up front our players just couldn't play that way. What happened was more about the quality of PSG and what they could do to us after we lost two key players to injury rather than poor tactical choices made by our manager.

They were able to man mark Pogba because he was our only creative threat. If we man marked Verratti then Draxler or Di Maria would have created something. If we man mark all of them then they control the midfield and dictate where our players go and we still likely lose. They had too many great players for us to cope. While we didn't have enough great players to ask more questions of them.

Red man, Ole can only work with what he has. If a carpenter only has pine to work with he can't make you an oak table, no matter how clever or "tactical" he is. With the squad available he has few options and in my opinion is extracting the maximum out of the players available.

Yeah, we need to be cleverer in Europe, we need to play more triangles and move the ball quicker, we need to be braver and more patient, and we need to be calmer under pressure. All these things require footballers of a certain level. Jose wasn't wrong when he said the squad lacked quality. He probably shouldn't have said it to the press or as often as he did, But he was right in his assessment. What he did fail to say or take responsibility for was that he spent nearly half a billion pounds on players to improve the squad. Most of his signings wouldn't have been given a mark higher than 6 out of 10 under Jose. So he was to blame to a certain extent about the lack of quality available to him due to his poor signings.

Yes we need a DoF, some sources are stating that Jose himself was a problem in finding the right man. Ed002 has stated that one of the things holding up appointing the right man was finding someone who could work with Jose. So there might well be some truth in that. Either way that is behind us now, we need to find a DoF asap, but more importantly we need to find the right DoF. As hiring the wrong person could mean they do a worse job than Woodward has managed. Hard to imagine I know, but not impossible.

The club is moving forward on the pitch, but there is a lot of building required off the pitch. How well that happens will be key in determining how well we move forward and what we can achieve.

13 Feb 2019 12:24:55
Lads and lassies, been reading this site for the past 15 odd hours post match and there is one common thing that most have agreed upon and that is "injuries to Martial and Lingard killed our chances ". Codswallop that is. How many touches did the two have in the entirety of the first half? How many chances did we actually create before their injuries? I am sorry but we should put our hands up and say what the truth is and stop glorifying the manager for once. Ole should have brought on Lukaku instead of Sanchez/ Mata. Is there something brewing there? Rashford looked disinterested after Lingard went off like i am not playing because my pal is off. Pogba was a red card all game. Tuchel had a masterstroke by marking him out using Marquinhos. We were taught a lesson and the game brought us crashing down. People were saying we should beat PSG, someone even said we should take a 3-4 goal lead to Paris. The illuminati on this page were adamant that there would be goals and only problem would be us keeping a clean sheet. PSG aren't Burnley guys. They cleaned us up without having their 2 best players and a Verrati on one leg.

PS- Ref was atrocious, killed the game with his love for cards where not required and not even blowing when there was a clear foul.

13 Feb 2019 12:35:35
The moment lingard and martial went off regardless of what offered whilst they were on, psg were able to push a further 20 yards up the pitch because the had no fear of getting caught on the break .

That is why it killed us when they went.

13 Feb 2019 13:07:28
How many times did we break before that, might i ask?

13 Feb 2019 13:13:32
They made every difference. They allowed Herrera and Matic to sit closer to the centre backs as AM and JL can get forward quickly.

It’s not simply about the number of attacks we created. It’s the worry their pace casues to the opposition, forcing PSG to be more cautious.

When they went off, PSG could play 10 years further forward, draw Herrera and Matic out and they dominated midfield doing it.

It’s not as simple as you like to think.


Lukaku should have come on earlier though, and for Mata, not Rashford.

13 Feb 2019 13:32:51
DGS,

You have totally missed the point, they didn't break before that because PSG were sat in stopping it happening, we pressed high and put them under a lot of pressure high up the pitch and they couldn't push further forward as they were scared of is hitting them on the break.

Unfortunately when Mata and Sanchez play we are a much worse team, Lukaku should have come on instead of Mata at half time I agree but not like Lukaku has been in scintillating form and would have ripped their back 4 apart, they defended well.

Can't say I noticed Rashford not playing because his pal was off, he just didn't get many chances and seemed frustrated, as the rest of us were with Sanchez losing possession every time he got it.

Not sure it has brought us crashing down either, unless you were expecting this team to win the Champions League?

You got one thing right, PSG aren't Burnley, we got done by a bit of quality from a top side, it happens.

13 Feb 2019 13:49:47
I thought we looked a bit toothless 1st half but we also never looked in danger, without the subs I truly believe we would have edged it 1-0 and at worst 0-0.

I know the knees will be jerking all over the place but this tie isn't over yet it's only half time .

It also has not changed the way I feel that things are going atm not one little bit .

We have only ever won the champions league twice, with some of the best squads that British football has seen its not an easy competition to win so why people thought we would spank psg yesterday is beyond me.

I'm also seeing we were lucky Neymar wasn't playing, I disagree there is no chance the French would have been able to keep so rigid and structured with him in the side we would have had much more space.

13 Feb 2019 13:57:26
We got done, and Ole made a poor tactical decision in bringing both Mata and Sanchez on. This ensured that we had no width, allowing their fbs to push higher up, and giving them control over possession. The bigger problem is that Ole did nothing to address this after we went behind. He looked lost, and his inexperience at the very top level of management showed.

Lesson is that it’s perfectly fine to lead with a - let the players express themselves and play the way they want - mentality. But at the very top level this isn’t enough, and the manager needs to be tactically astute enough to respond to the circumstances in a particular game. Tunchel did this, Ole did not.

13 Feb 2019 14:25:00
True. But with what was available on the bench what should the response have been. We're half a dozen players short of a competitive job. I said last week what does Mata offer. Answer is very little. Sanchez as well needs moving on.

13 Feb 2019 14:47:52
Danny,

I kind of agree but not sure Ole had anything else available to him to stop that from happening. We all know we have a good first 11, maybe 12 but after that we aren't as strong. Perhaps Ole knew the issue just didn't have the personnel to cope with it, you can't plan for losing both of your wide players unfortunately.

13 Feb 2019 15:23:16
GDS, in the second half it was clear that having Mata and Sanchez on the wings wasn’t working. We had no width, our attacking play became congested, and their fbs could press higher. This allowed them to control possession. This isn’t down to Sanchez and Mata being significantly worse than Martial and Lingard, it’s down to a poor tactical decision.

After the first goal, when we were being penned back in our half, the obvious solution was to bring on Lukaku, shifting Rash to the left, Lukaku to the right, and having Sanchez playing as a false 9 like Lingard did at Spurs. One of Pogba, Herrera and Matic would have to be sacrificed (mostly because it would be unfair to sub Mata) . But this would have given us a much better chance of dragging their defence out of position and getting back some control over the game. Ole didn’t do this, and they dominated the rest of the game.

13 Feb 2019 16:51:52
Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it, nothing to suggest putting Sanchez up front would have made any difference to what we ended up doing. If he had changed the midfield and we had conceded again people would have said he made a mistake changing the midfield, he can't get everything right and maybe he will learn from it, you learn more from defeats after all, mainly who the fans are who overreact to everything.

13 Feb 2019 17:15:03
Danny you are dreaming! Bringing any of the midfielders off would have resulted in a hiding.

13 Feb 2019 17:31:04
in hindsight would have kept the shape, but put Sanchez as central striker, Rashford left and Lukaku right without Mata on the pitch.

Would that have got a different result? Maybe, but its still not ideal.

Martial's pace in behind was a huge loss, it allowed them to push up much higher as Rashford was isolated and easier to deal with if he runs in behind.

Lingard is the guy who greases the wheels and makes it all come together, he is also the most tactically intelligent and the one who does the most closing down in the final third. With him gone PSG could pass out from the back much easier and therefore control the game.

Add that to the brilliant idea of having Marquinhos man mark Pogba out of the game. That meant we had no creative hub, nor due to injuries any pace other than Rashford to run in behind.

There was no other options on the bench. So our game plan went out the window and plan B was sold to China (rightfully mind you) .

13 Feb 2019 11:07:59
The Clough Taylor partnership was founded upon recognition of sell by dates, extracting good returns on players who were supposedly at their peak, but in fact only had one direction to go. SAF had that ability too. When he sold RVN and replaced him with Carrick people asked where would the goals come from. If I remember correctly we scored more the following season.

The effectiveness of the policy depends on the ability to recognize and acquire or develop the right young talent to fit into whatever the tactical plan is, which in turn requires a manger or succession of managers who are ahead of the curve, or at least the best exponents of the current one. This has been the crucial failing at United and it started before SAF retired.

For me the problem was epitomized by the signing of RVP, a 29 year old injury prone striker, who clearly had no long term future at the club. Yes, it was spectacularly successful - for one season - but it did nothing to rebuild an aging squad and a youth development program that was no longer producing top talent. And since that time successive managers have compounded the problem with signings like Sanchez, Ibrahimovic, Matic, the retention of decent but hardly top world class players like Mata, Young and Valencia, and the signings of other mediocre talents like Fred, Darmian, Blind. The antithesis of the formula required to get to and stay at the top.

Last night the distance between United and the top teams of Europe was exposed. No wonder Ole, who takes no blame whatsoever for the loss, looked so disconsolate. He has done wonders in the domestic competitions so far, reversing the malaise Mourinho created. It will now be interesting to see how he and the players cope with that reality check. This next month will define the season and determine whether Ole is even in the running for the manager job. Both Chelsea and Arsenal started their season under new managers on highs but have since collapsed. The true test comes when the manager and the players are facing adversity, not when they are riding on the crest of novelty's wave.

13 Feb 2019 11:57:33
Signing RVP was a no brainer. He was at the peak of his powers.
Sometimes, we need to buy such world class talent to set the bench mark. They will push the rest of the squad to raise their level.
Moreover, the older players have leadership qualities and can pass on their knowledge, experience to the rest of the squad.

Look at PSG. They signed 41 year old Buffon and 35 year old Dani Alves.
There needs to be a correct combination of youth and experience.

13 Feb 2019 09:17:11
So here we are, the morning after the night before. What did we find learn last night?

For me we learned that we don't have the strength in depth in this squad to play the way Ole wants us to play. Once we have a couple of key injuries the players coming in aren't able to play at the same pace or intensity.

The injuries to Martial and especially Lingard killed our chances last night.

People will point out PSG had two of their starting forwards out for the game. However, players being out before the game allows you to plan. Players getting injured mid game can leave you up the creek without a paddle.

We also learned that poor Refs aren't limited to the EPL. Last night the Ref got the game all wrong, handing out yellow cards like sweets at a kids party first half, but he completely lacked consistency. Kimpembe should have been sent off twice for clear yellow card fouls after his early booking. I won't say that a player not being sent off cost us the game, but a lack of consistency from the Ref certainly didn't help our cause. Further compounded by him sending Pogba off at the end.

Speaking of Pogba, Ed001 said yesterday on the page that the problem with Pogba is he only does the pretty stuff that looks good on YouTube. That he doesn't knuckle down and do the dirty work. He is right of course, and against a team of the quality of PSG his lack of dirty work meant we lost the midfield battle. He needs to learn that to be remembered as one of the best you have to win the biggest prizes, that doesn't happen unless you roll your sleeves up and get stuck in.

There is a silver lining to last night though, now we will get to see how Ole gets this group of players to react to a bad result. Can he lift them and get them firing. Chelsea up next, and I don't think we could have asked for a better moment to play them. They look wobbly and we could get a very good result against them if we play to our potential. If Ole can get the right reaction from the players then it would be another tick for him to get the job full time. Now we will see if he is the right man for the job.

{Ed001's Note - there is one other thing, PSG, every time I see them (except for one notable exception in the Champions League against Liverpool) play better football without Neymar in the team. So I would not use that as a stick to hit the Man Utd team with, as him being out is as much a help as it is a hindrance to them.}

13 Feb 2019 09:35:55
"The injuries to Martial and especially Lingard killed our chances last night"

This could be a great opportunity for Chong. If AM and JL have muscle injuries it could be 4 weeks minimum.

I loved watching Mata play, he was a magician, unfortunately it's all past tense. Same for Sanchez.

Ole could do a lot worse than giving Chong a couple of starts in the next month. He'll be hungry and I dare say will give the ball away less than Sanchez and will cover more ground than Mata.

13 Feb 2019 09:46:43
The second half would have been a sobering experience for the players last night. PSG really taught us a lesson last night in how to punish mistakes and in simple ball retention in the oppositions half. The amount of times verratti could easily play through our press was so frustrating.

We learnt what we've known from this team under most managers post fergie. We are a pretty poor team when we have the ball at our feet, we are much more suited to sitting back and hitting teams on the counter. That can only take you so far at the elite level where teams can keep the ball so effortlessly.

PSG are no arsenal, they will be able to restrict the amount of counter attacks you can have, whether that's through fouls or not losing the ball in silly areas.

13 Feb 2019 10:12:49
Last night was set up for Pogba to show he is one of the best in the world. A game he should have taken by the scruff of the neck, as all great players do. He was sadly lacking in that regard. Another flat-track bully?

13 Feb 2019 10:17:00
For me this summer is massive in terms of transfers in and out. Surely Rojo Valencia Jones Darmian Mata Sanchez and Lukaku have to go. Personally there is a couple more i’d ship out but that won’t happen. We need a world class centre half possibly 2 but we can’t afford 2 if we strengthen other areas. Another fullback is a must. Another top drawer central midfielder and a right winger

Kouilbaly, Varane, Umtiti, Alderwield or Skriniar
Ndombele, Veratti, Saul or Neves
Jayden Sancho.

13 Feb 2019 13:17:46
Psg have conceded twice as many goals per game when neymar is playing.

13 Feb 2019 08:20:23
Well, last night seemed bad, I think and what the majority will feel was the issue was that our game suffered because of two early injuries and that too, to players who play a major role in pressing the ball. We were a menace when they tried to play out the back and in the early stages, especially with Martial and Lingard, we were closing down in the right areas and zones.
I think we made a few individual errors that proved to be costly, Matic ball watching for the first goal and then Pogba lost the ball on the far side of the pitch that led to the second goal.

I think the stark difference in yesterday’s game, unlike all the other games that we’ve played was that we failed to create good chances for our attackers to do something. The one Pogba run seemed very promising, but apart from that, we surely didn’t trouble them much. On a side note, I think Pogba yesterday was nullified by PSG, and he didn’t really see much of the ball, but I’m sure these players know how to counter a man-marking move, just surprised, Pogba couldn’t do it.

Few instances of the game which daft, was when Young was crossing the ball quite often, we didn’t have a Lukaku to head them in or bring others to the game with that, Mata by no means will win headers against a very physical PSG defence.

Most of the arguments are circling around Kimpembe not being sent off. I think the ref got it wrong, more importantly, I think the ref got the match totally wrong. He was too hasty in shelling out cards and wasn’t consistent in doing the same.

Tactically, I think PSG played well, they had a three man defence and the wingbacks stretched the field completely, always being an option in case needed. Veratti was good, he showed calmness on the ball and was always able to find a player in white. But, saying that Ole was out of depth is a bit of a stretch. I’m pretty sure he didn’t want to use the subs so early in the game, and that kind of forced his hand for the remainder of the game. I still back him, and I still feel we should not make a knee-jerk reaction, whether it’s keeping him or not.

Sanchez, for all the admiration I have for him, has turned out to be shadow of prior self, I don’t know what’s wrong with him, he doesn’t seem to enjoy the game, doesn’t seem to like what he’s doing. I think Ole is right, it’s down to him, if he can raise his game or not. If not, then the best bet will be sell him off, might not get a lot of money, but I’d rather go for another LW, if needed.

I’m still looking forward to the second leg and although we are without Pogba, we are still Manchester United.

13 Feb 2019 09:15:34
We got out classed in the middle.

We didn't keep the ball and we were way to slow.


Just gives us an idea of where we are at compared to the very best teams.

Although psg had some good attacks we made them look way above how good they are with both neymar and Cavani not playing.


We learn and move on. Try get top 4 maybe a fa cup win would be nice and improve in the summer and go again

Let's not over react to 1 loss against the better team.

13 Feb 2019 09:58:24
Since u mention Verratti, I will add what pissed me off the most was his willingness to fall with the least contact and the poor ref buying the 'dives'. Maybe that was an Italian connection.

13 Feb 2019 08:03:56
I would like to think that the last remaining supporters who think we have a really good squad no realise how wrong they are.
The lack of quality in depth and big game experience is very obvious.
No manager could have this squad competing to win the cl or the epl.

Both full backs are suspect still for me. Young was badly exposed for what he is last night a winger filling un.
Shaw has been decent but far from a stand iut left back.
Martial and rash showed last night that they are still very much b on a learning curve.
Pogba was extremely well marshelled by a cb playing in midfield and veratti reminded us all how scholes used to plat. the result wad disappointing given our recent run but mit really that surprising.
Our squad is poor full of average joes when it comes to competing with the best clubs being an ostrich and insisting this is a high quality squad is frankly talking Nonsense.

Im Loki n forward to the reaction from ole and the team. We can still get 4th and progress in the fa cup.

Its not all doom and gloom its just a reminder of how much work needs to be done in order to compete with the best.

They named 6 defenders last night in their team and they outclassed us in every are of the pitch missing 3 of their best players.

13 Feb 2019 07:11:44
Watching Sanchez this season reminds me a lot of watching Rooney after he signed a new contract when we all really knew he was past it.

He gives the ball away far too often, we will struggle to create too much with him and Lukaku in the same team.

He's never been the fastest over a long distance but he was explosive and he seems to have lost that.

He misplaced short passes and his long passes go nowhere near the target.

I was really excited by his signing but it hasn't worked out. We need better backup to Martial and Jesse, that will be proven over the next few games.

Great player once upon a time but now he looks burnt out and we'll be lucky to sell him.

13 Feb 2019 07:29:48
I too was excited when we signed him but I always wonder in recent times "Where has his pace gone? "
He doesn't seem to beat a man, always tries to turn and gets dispossessed.

2 years back, I still remember Sanchez absolutely destroying Darmian.

13 Feb 2019 07:37:06
I was also meant to mention that it’s a disgrace to see bottles of beer thrown onto the pitch, I hope those guilty are banned. There’s no need for it at all. Mob mentality.

Di Maria did his best to wind up the fans after their first goal, he was mouthing “**** off” repeatedly. Not a humble bone in his body. But there’s no need for how our fans reacted.


Onwards and upwards to the next game. 1 defeat and 1 draw in I think 12 matches, I don’t think any of of expected that 8 weeks ago.

12 Feb 2019 23:50:43
That one really cuts deep. We just saw how poor our depth is in our squad. Mata and sanchez’s Days are numbered for me. Both should be moved on in the summer. They give the illusion we have depth but in reality they are far too slow to play the counter attacking and pressing game that ole is trying to implement.

Martial and lingard’s injuries completely ripped our game plan apart. At that stage we should have probably gone for Lukaku over mata. Unfortunately we got beat by a better side and their quality is where we should be aiming to be.

The ref would a disgrace. He stifled the game and arguably should have sent of kimpembe. The antics and diving by Alves et al was embarrassing. And pogba’s Red is a dagger blow to any chances we have in the second leg. You look at city’s depth and they had de Bruyne out for most of the season. Yet they have gundogan, Bernardo, David Silva to replace him. Who do we have to replace pogba?

I love ole. I think he has done a great job. He has brought a smile back on our faces. He’s made watching united enjoyable again. But for me, tonight showed his limitations and that he is out of his depth. Although we have been great to watch we have been ever so reliant on our counter attacking prowess. We struggle to dominate possession and control the tempo of the game against the bigger sides. We need to start doing this. Signings would improve this but a lot of the is down to coaching. That is why I am still in the camp that we should be going for Poch. His spurs’ side dominate possession and retain possession well. We haven’t done that since the days of Scholes and Fergie.

And the player to do that is someone like Verratti. And absolutely wonderful player. The heartbeat of that team. Marquinhos as well was all over the pitch. He covered every blade of grass. Extremely imprsssive. Mbappe is special. He is going to be special. And finally di Maria. I despise the guy. But his quality from crosses is what we have been lacking for years.

Bitterly disappointed. That really was a car crash of a night. But we have learnt a lot of the squad. We bounce back and beat Chelsea in the cup. Have a great rest of the week chaps.

13 Feb 2019 01:23:12
Veratti was one I posted and selected in my players to buy this summer, always been impressed. I doubt they would sell.

Ole is only playing with the hand he has, we signed nobody in January. This defeat is not unexpected because PSG are technically very good, taking midfield control and SAF teams had problems dealing with those.

I still say we should not rush to appoint a manager full time, too emotional too quick, what happens if it all falls apart in coming weeks and we have already laid our cards on the table by making the decision?

Lastly I maintain that the club infrastructure, the ground and the team need serious levels of investment. We are hamstrung in a way because to build the ground we would have to borrow and we already have debt, that makes it a more difficult starting point. In terms of the tram., let’s see whether the Glazers want us to be the best side or just the side that gets them into the CL to keep money rolling in. They struck lucky with SAF and Rio, Ronaldo, Rooney and CO92 who were there when they bought the club. They thought it would all carry on, the problems start at the very top and now we need to see action and direction.

13 Feb 2019 02:04:45
Would Poch be able to produce his style of football with our existing players? Probably not. He would need to bring in some new faces and changes things up to accomplish where he’s at with Spurs.

Same goes with OGS - he’s come in and brought exciting, counter attacking, fast football. However, as you pointed above, the illusion of depth and certain players being past their prime, has definitely hindered his options. I’m in the camp of giving him the gig, letting him do a full summer of transfers and promote/ play a few from the academy. Still think he can do the job at this level.

13 Feb 2019 04:39:27
PSG played more like a team than us. They had better cohesion. Their players know the movement of each other since they have been playing together long with a clear style.

In contrast, we have just started to get an identity for our team. We must note that Ole had barely few months to instill his philosophy. It is still a work in progress.
I am sure with 2 or 3 windows, Ole would add players who would suit our style.

13 Feb 2019 06:22:49
Park - I think you are being harsh on Ole, he can only play with the players available and I think the gulf in the qualities of the players was highlighted rather than Ole's limitations. I'm not saying Ole is definitely the answer I just don't feel he should be judged on last night's result.
Injuries didn't help us but at no point during the game did I think we were capable of actually winning the match, outplayed and outclassed by a decent team, as Ole said it was a wake up call for where we really are.
Personally I'm enjoying the ride with Ole as our expectations were so low before Xmas and I think he has us around where we are, about the 4th-6th best team in England. For me last night was a free shot, a win would have been great but the result went with form and quality which wasn't a surprise.

13 Feb 2019 08:19:24
I think rather than showing we have a poor squad, it shows how unbalanced the squad is - especially to play fast pressing, fast attacking football.

The injuries to Martial and Lingard took away most of our pace and pressing allowing PSG to play higher up and take control of the match.

Agree wholeheartedly with Red Man about needing to get the structure off the pitch right.

Not all doom and gloom though. A good DOF, and a few astute signings in the summer (ones that suit the style of play we want to implement) and the team will challenge for the prem and be better equipped to compete in Europe. I would take Rabiot on a free, add one of Veratti, Kante or Ndombele, a CB and wide forward. Then try to move players on who don't complement the style of play - like happened with Fellaini in January.